Hierarchies of oppression: a highway to nowhere
DARING TOGETHER / Better to avoid self-labelling as a victim
Gareth Kirkby / National / Wednesday, July 16, 2008
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Old nonsense is again raising its hoary head. There was a time, a couple decades back, when some people liked to number their oppressions. Some lesbians, for example, noted they were oppressed as both women and as people sleeping with the same sex.

Fair enough.

But then, they'd claim, it meant they were more oppressed than, say, gay men and their issues should therefore rise to the top of the pile.

Sort of an "I'm a bigger victim than you are" taunt.

This silliness died out. Most sensible people understand that a huge part of the world is oppressed in one way or another and that defining oneself as a victim, and creating a hierarchical ranking of victimization is, well, a highway to nowhere.

Much better to just chip away at your issues, individually and collectively, and avoid rankings and, frankly, self-labelling as a victim.

And for three decades, we did chip away. We made good progress on equality rights but we still have a long way to go in matters of sexual freedom and social justice — and those issues continue to be of pressing importance.

In recent years, some in our community have reached out to embrace the parallel struggle of trans people for gender equality. It is a bit of an awkward fit, of course, because the lesbian and gay struggle has been one centred on our freedom to express our love and lust, whereas the trans struggle is one of gender expression.

Some have argued that trans people must be responsible for organizing their own liberation, in the way that gays and lesbians did before them. Others say that their gender struggle fits well with our sexual-freedom struggle — after all, we share the same enemies — and that because trans people are much less common than gays and lesbians, it is only fair that we take up their cause. In either case, it's clearly going to be a long battle.

The progress to date for gay rights has been accomplished largely through the involvement of middle-class (and now largely middle-aged) gay men and women who have organized the groups, led the occasional demonstrations and funded the legal challenges. It's gay men and lesbians that are being asked to make room for trans issues in their list of priorities and, let's face it, to pay for any future challenges.

All of which is to say that it's really unhelpful — insulting, really — when some trans activists suggest that they are the most oppressed, and so we should put their issues at the front of the agenda.

Ottawa trans activist Jessica Freedman's recent blog postings are a case in point. Freedman is a profoundly tenacious activist at the local level and has taken recently to sharing her blog on national listservs. A recent posting insisted on viewing trans as the "most marginalized" within the queer universe.

"I have always thought of marginalization/oppression to be, not a stagnant body of water, but a series of cascades from the most mainstream to the most marginal," writes Freedman. "We are all holders of privilege and invisibilize those more marginal than ourselves, unless we are diligent and open."

She goes on to call for reallocating the "resources of life." Sounds fair at first glance.

But the implication is clear. If followed, our attention would shift to prioritizing resources to the needs of the "most marginal" (never mind the question of how we determine who they are.) Trans issues would top the agenda and our organizations would re-prioritize and spend accordingly.

Of course, it will never work — nor should it.

The numbers of gays and lesbians far outweigh those of trans. And gays and lesbians pay for our community's struggles as volunteers and donators and we've still got a lot to do. Trans issues are also important, and perhaps they should be included in the overall agenda (though it seems this has become an assumption of our leaders without there first being a genuine debate about it.)

Meanwhile, any organization that buys into the insulting concept of hierarchies of oppression is not getting a donation from me.

Read previous columns by Gareth Kirkby:


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Reader Comments


 
Oh, come ON, Gareth...
I think with comments like "The progress to date for gay rights has been accomplished largely through the involvement of middle-class (and now largely middle-aged) gay men and women who have organized the groups, led the occasional demonstrations and funded the legal challenges," Kirkby belittles the pioneering role of trans folks in the original protests (riots) such as Stonewall and Compton Cafeteria. C'mon, Gareth, they've been with us there from the very START. It is decidedly ungracious of you (to put it mildly) to try to sweep them -- and all they have done for us -- under the rug.
Nathanial, Slocan Valley British Columbia
07/16/08 7:46 PM EST
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I'm not holding my breath
I don't expect a donation from you, and wouldn't no matter what the situation was. People get fired for being gay. But Susan Stanton was fired 2 years ago now, and still is jobless. Think that would happen if she was just lesbian? Christine Daniels is still with the LA Times. But would it be newsworthy if a reporter for a major newspaper *didn't* get fired for being GLB? Would it be so outrageously unusual? Gays commit suicide due to oppression. But not 50% of them. Gays get discriminated against in employment. But there's no city in North America where 75% are jobless. And meanwhile Egale Canada says that there's no discrimination anywhere in Canada, everyone's covered - ignoring the T's, who aren't, except in Nova Scotia IIRC. There's more GLBs than T's, no doubt. But examine the raw numbers killed in hate crimes, denied employment, or persecuted in a myriad of ways, and the number of T's who are victims is at least comparable, and may even exceed, the number of GLBs combined. Point these inconvenient facts out, and you get accused of "competitive victimology". "Trans issues are also important, and *perhaps* they should be included in the overall agenda..." That's mighty white of you. We're not asking for equality, despite being at least equally disadvantaged. But if all we get is crumbs from the table, we at least have the right to point that out, no matter how uncomfortable that makes you feel. And you don't have the right to deny it. You do have the right not to contribute, of course, but frankly, we don't expect you to.
Zoe Brain, Canberra Australian Capital Territory
07/17/08 9:00 AM EST
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Just Pointing Out The Facts, NOt Playing Victim
Interesting that certain types of people (read Kirkbys of the world) are all out there telling the world why they must be given equal treatment and rights, fixing laws so that their rights are now recognised and respected (rightfully so), seeking support from all peoples and communities in and outside the rainbow. == == And so support is given, rights are gained, all sorts of rights for that matter. == == Then when one of those communities stands up and ask for the same in return. They find themselves having to point out to the Kirkbys of the world, that they too were in that position once before. That they sought and received that community's support (regardless of it's size). == == Now the Kirkbys of the world say wait "we've still got a lot to do" for ourselves, before we will look in your direction, if we even do. == == It would seem like a no brainier that support should be forth coming. Fortunately not all women and men of the queer community are like Kirkby. He only speaks for himself, unfortunately he does gets paid to spout his dividing views.
femme, Toronto Ontario
07/17/08 2:10 PM EST
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ack
I think it is fair to say that while the person you attack in your article IS INDEED a destructive nutbar who needs many things explained to her, you overstep way too many lines in an effort to incense her. She got your goat and you took the bait. But, since you, as a gay white male, have funded the revolution with your middleclass dollars, I suppose we will be forced to acquiesce to your strategies. ;)
pr, Ottawa ON
07/18/08 12:14 AM EST
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Trans activism benefits us all
This letter is in reply to Gareth Kirkby's column "Hierarchies of oppression: a highway to nowhere". Since when did gays and lesbians not have to deal with issues of gender expression? Does a butch dyke or a fey fag walk down the street and feel safe, let alone fit in? Are genderqueers, bisexuals, leather daddies and high femmes not a part of your gay and lesbian community, Gareth? How many trans people do you know who aren't either queer-identified now, or were before they transitioned? We can't separate gender and sexuality, it doesn't benefit anyone, it hurts many, and it ignores the huge role gender anxiety plays in homophobic oppression. All of which makes trans activism an important aspect of the fight for queer liberation. No one wins the game of comparative victimization, but it is only fair and honest to recognize that some people -- like trans folks -- are more at risk than others. It is terribly unfortunate that Gareth feels compelled to react to this observation with a patronizing retrenchment of his relative privilege and an argument for yet more silence about trans rights and activism. And what about this idea that the gay middle classes shouldn't support the trans movement with time and money, even if it's not to their benefit directly? The civil rights movement was supported by many white allies. Many lesbians are ardent Pro Choice activists. Struggles for liberation involve principles of freedom and safety that are always relevant to the community at large, which is why they attract allies and solidarity Gareth, on the other hand, seems to feel that he needs to hunker down and only support his own kind. This is a very troubling position for him to take, given that he is the editor of Capital Xtra, the public voice for the queer community of Ottawa. Cap X has many great writers who care about this community as a whole, and hopefully they still feel like they can write for a paper whose editor has such a
Shelley Taylor and Steve McCullough, Halifax Nova Scotia
07/18/08 3:18 PM EST
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More to the point
So many words I didn't write, so many motivations I don't have, are being attributed to me by people above. I didn't suggest that trans issues were unimportant. I didn't suggest that gays and lesbians should not support them. I did note that the leadership of our communities have not hosted a full discussion about the extent to which gays and lesbians want to fund and prioritize the battle for trans rights and medical access - and I noted that it will be a long battle. I did note that there is an uneasy fit with the sexual attraction issue that is at the heart of the lesbian and gay struggle. No amount of name-calling aimed at those who point it out will change the fact that many gays and lesbians aren't fully convinced. They don't argue back, they just withdraw financial and volunteer support from organizations that make trans issues the main priority — as we're now experiencing in Canada. My key point, though, is that the argument for a hierarchy of oppression is both insulting and counter-productive. It is shrill and drives away potential supporters - or leads them to tune out. Of course, the struggle for sexual freedom crosses class lines (early activists in particular were clearly young radicals, socialists, anarchists and other lefties), gender lines (Compton's - a US example - and Stonewall (ditto) - in which the role of hustlers and dykes has been understated - come to mind), and sexual orientation lines. But the increasingly oft-heard slagging of middle-class gay men and lesbians is a put-down of the very people who have historically paid the bills of the movement and are expected to continue doing so even while called names and told their outstanding issues have to make way for those of others who number a lot fewer. Name-calling won't silence this discussion.
Gareth Kirkby, Ottawa Ontario
07/19/08 12:52 AM EST
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That's not what you said, Gareth
I'll quote: == Trans issues would top the agenda and our organizations would re-prioritize and spend accordingly. Of course, it will never work — nor should it. == Sounds to me as if you've already made up your mind, no discussion necessary. Not only would it not work, but it shouldn't. There is a moral argument that help should not be given now other agenda items are complete. // I'll quote again : == Trans issues are also important, and *perhaps* they should be included in the overall agenda == Perhaps... if you're feeling generous. And the implication is "perhaps not" too, that they are disposable, not worthy of consideration, compared to the rich white gay males that provide much of the funds, and have little of the persecution. == Again, I don't expect your help. I do expect you to get out of the way though, and let those who care do something without your interference. Given the words in you article, I find your backtracking unconvincing.
Zoe Brain, Canberra Australian Capital Territory
07/19/08 7:11 AM EST
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Not top of the agenda
I will not backtrack. I do not think trans issues should be at the TOP of the agenda. I do think that a discussion is needed, a discussion that has been avoided by some leaders, perhaps because they worry about the kind of name-calling that has occurred above. Average gays and lesbians have largely shut up but are voting with their dollars by not donating to organizations that put an emphasis on trans issues the way they used to donate when gay and lesbian issues dominated. I do think that the still-unwon issues of the largest number of people - gays and lesbians - will, and should, dominate the effort and spending of organizations. And I think that's only sensible when they're paying the haulage. IF the hierarchy rhetoric is abandoned, I suspect trans people might get a better hearing from average gays ane lesbians. Following a more thorough public discussion on the issue, if the gay and lesbian community is convinced, perhaps a way forward can be found, wherein trans issues remain on the agenda (in most countries, it seems reasonable to suggest, it's going to take another couple decades to win rights and full funding). But the reality will always be that the issues of greatest importance to the greatest number, and to those who pay the haulage, will dominate.
Gareth Kirkby, Ottawa Ontario
07/19/08 11:05 AM EST
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Priority = Hierarchy, Us versus Them.
The more Kirkby questions putting trans issues at the top of queer activist priorities and suggests instead a subordinate position, the more he uses the logic of hierarchy that he ostensibly questions. Hierarchy, by the way, is inherent in the concept of prioritizing, be it for funds, action or recognition of marginalization. But I'm most troubled by the 'us/them' language running through Kirkby's piece. The language suggests that trans issues are not queer issues. If they were, why would we even talk about inclusion, the gay/lesbian community 'taking on' trans activism? Trans issues are something with which the queer community should be concerned because trans issues are queer issues. When you think of it that way, we're all in the same struggle.
Renuka Chaturvedi, Ottawa Ontario
07/19/08 11:51 AM EST
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to summarize
So... gay organizations are faltering due to lack of funding, and this is primarily due to the waning engagement of gay male donors who find trans issues distateful/irrelevant, or worse, hijacking their space. And to ease the lack-of-funding crisis, there needs to be a public consultation with the middle-class people to see just how much they actually care about trans issues and how much trans talk they are willing to tolerate. Since trans people are a minority within a minority group and do not donate nearly as much money, the issues surrounding them specifically should be viewed proportionally to the donations by the rest of the group. Is that about right?
cat, Ott ON
07/19/08 12:28 PM EST
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gender based oppression
Hey, Gareth: how do gay, lesbian & bi people who are trans fit into your theory? Also, if gender-based oppression is overcome through activism about transgender/transsexual human rights, then gay & lesbian people will no longer face gender-based discrimination either. When gay & lez folks are told that they can't love/lust for people of the same sex, that is an issue of gender expectations. (Hence why most modern feminists are on board with eliminating oppression on same-sex couples.) I think you (and your pet newspaper) have a pretty serious disconnect.
Caro, Ottawa on
07/19/08 2:57 PM EST
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Getting personal
Bizarre wording, Caro: "pet newspaper". Surely it's possible to discuss an issue without all the name-calling, personal digs and misrepresentation that I see in some of these responses? Surely, we can focus on the issue itself? And by the way, as we announced a couple weeks ago, Marcus McCann is now the Managing Editor of Capital Xtra as of July 21, though I'm still looking after the business end for a while (and keeping charge of xtra.ca and moving on to another editorial project at PTP). You'll be glad to know, I'm sure, that I shall be keeping my column on xtra.ca.
Gareth Kirkby, Ottawa ON
07/20/08 12:56 AM EST
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"a US example", eh?
Gareth wrote: "Compton's - a US example - and Stonewall (ditto)" Yeah... so? Are you trying to infer that Compton's and Stonewall had nothing (or little) to do with the struggle for queer rights in Canada? To do so would be as much folly as it is to attempt to parse, and segregate the various elements of our struggle today: gay, lesbian, bi, trans, etc. I see our brothers and sisters as a People, whether they live in Canada, the US, Jamaica, Iran, Poland, Russia, or elsewhere. We have so many external enemies that we MUST stand together and work for the benefit of us ALL. And as for the issue of "haulage", try this on for size: "From each, according to his abilities, to each, according to his needs." Have you become SO middle class, comfortable and conservative that this idea is too radical for you, Gareth? (* PS: The "his" in that last quote is not meant to be gender-exclusive; that's just the way it was originally said. )
Nathanial, Slocan Valley British Columbia
07/20/08 10:34 AM EST
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focus
Gareth, if you want to keep things topical, don't respond to what you see as "personal digs and namecalling". There are a plethora of well thought out political points in this thread that you need to acknowledge and respond to. They explain things well and "focus on the issue itself". The dialogue would be best served if you could focus on those. It is a lie to imply that a "trans agenda" was somehow foisted about the gay populace without discussion. The dialogue occurred over many many years and through the struggle of numerous activists, trans and cissexual alike. The 'T' wasn't always at the end of LGBT, organizations adopted it one at a time after years of discussion. It should be noted that PTP stands alone as the sole Canadian queer organization (that I know of) that has not specifically included the T in their mandate. Like every group that has come before, it is a discussion that will have to happen. If there is a perceived disconnect between how trans activism effects the lives of gay men, chances are gay men have not been told what trans activism is and how profound it's impact can be. Gender affects everyone.
Cait, ottawa ontario
07/20/08 1:40 PM EST
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on lack of deep thinking
it does seem that the author of the column has retreated since he chose not to respond to the last post entitled "focus". as the author of that post correctly points out, there are a great many relevant topics that remain unexamined. my thought is this: perhaps Mr. Kirby needs to step outside himself and reflect on oppression in a structural sense that many in our community face on a daily basis. Oppression, as I understand it, refers to the vast and deep injustices that some groups suffer as a consequence of unconscious assumptions and reactions of sometime well-meaning people (I assume Mr. Kirby is one of these) in ordinary interactions. As the lead editor of what one commentator called a pet newspaper, I would have expected more reflection and deeper analysis than trite observation dressed up as a political statement that is not only demeaning but in fact reproduce the very oppression you seek to dismantle. Of course, I rarely read the Ottawa CapX because it is, save one or two columns, weak in both subject matter and analysis, but felt strongly enough to join the fray....
susan, ottawa on
07/22/08 1:42 PM EST
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Just a Few Thoughts
I'll begin with the description of the lesbian and gay struggle as one centred on freedom to express love and lust. Any movement for liberation moves far beyond that. For me life is about striving for the fullest expression of my humanity. Any time we diminish or marginalize others we diminish ourselves. Our relative freedom is built on those brave souls in the Stonewall Riots. Today middle-class gays and lesbians enjoy the freedom they do on the backs of people who have refused to live their lives on the margins. Many of us have slipped into the boardrooms and suburbs of society so deeply that we have forgotton that such personal freedom can dissolve in a heartbeat. Most of us cannot imagine an abrupt social revolution that would send us all scurrying to the margins, but most of us have felt the chill of the current conservative agenda. If we pull our heads far enough out of our own little lives(or out of our own asses) we can see how our own liberty is built at the expense of others, just as our luxury is built at the expense of our environment. When we refuse to acknowledge our common humanity we silence others. When we say that we will not support the struggles of others we are, in essence, saying their lives have less value. 'If we distance ourselves as much as possible from "others" no one could possibly make the mistake of associating "us" with "them." When all of "us" are safely on the shore we choose to extend the life -line to "them." I'd prefer to take my chances with "them" rather than Gareth's "us." Loosely quoted, the philosopher Emmanuel Levinas said, "When I take my place in the sun I am standing in the the place of an other." The issue of how we live our lives is not about who we choose to love or how we choose to identify ourselves, the is about how compassionately we negotiate our common humanity. T
Evelyn Huer, Ottawa ON
07/23/08 6:00 PM EST
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the real issue is not this editorial
I find this whole thread of comments just as discouraging really as I find the editorial by Gareth. Gareth is grinding an axe vis a vis Jessica. The professionalism of that is debateable, but I don't care to debate it. What discourages me most is that people are jumping all over this editorial, but I have yet to see anyone take a principled stand against the root problem, which is the bogus, outmoded, outdated, tunnel-visioned and oppressive "mission statement" and paradigm of the parent organization (Pink Triangle Press) and its directorship. If you want to see these sorts of editorials and the ongoing exclusion and erasure of trans people in the pages of Xtra papers come to an end, people need to start getting a bit more serious about it, and to start forsaking their own pecuniary and other self-interests by NOT attending or supporting events like LGX, by NOT advertising in its pages, and by NOT associating with the paper unless and until it CHANGES, be that as a reader, a writer or an attendee at events it sponsors. It pains me to write these things, but I can't help but feel that there is a great deal of inconsistency (I won't say hypocrisy) between peoples words and their actions. If we want inclusion, we also need to start objecting loudly, proudly and angrily to those who are ultimately responsible: the PTP directorship that is perpetuating the false, counter-productive and oppressive notion that queerness and anti-queer oppression is a matter only of sexuality and not one that engages with the dominant gender paradigm in our society. /end
Shannon Blatt, Ottawa Ontario
07/25/08 11:18 AM EST
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I *can't*, Shannon!
I can't quit reading Xtra... I'm too much in love with Marcus McCann's picture! (He's SO cute!) But seriously... give me a decent Canadian-based alternative queer publication website, and I *might* consider it. Hell, I still find myself using 365gay.com, despite the fact that I loathe them, simply because of a lack of decent alternatives. (And I *don't* live in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver -- in fact I live in a very rural area -- so my options are seriously limited.) So... give me options.
Nathanial, Slocan Valley British Columbia
07/26/08 9:47 AM EST
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Very disappointed, even disillusioned ..
I am in my 69th, almost 70th year - and I have always been a gay man, loving my maleness. I found my love and we joined together for 37 years till he passed from Cancer ... Still, I am newly "out" in the Community, never entering onto the club scene. We both spent years in India in a Tantric Community ... and we were finally married in July 2003 when it became possible. So I do speak from long life experience, as well as a Tantric perspective... Gareth's article really shocked me ... however so do some of the name-calling responses. Let me first say I don't read Xtra ... I know about this article because I recently joined the Rainbow Health Network - which clearly and correctly includes "Trans" in that rainbow. I am very new to trans issues, but have been studying to make up for years of ignorance (NOT indifference - I just did not know!) I realized very quickly that most (there are clearly some notable exceptions!) transgenders are NOT gay - and therefore there are the 'Gareth's among us that will ignore them. But surely you have experienced being "queer" in the eyes of general society? I don't care what kind of "trans" type you are - I hate labels anyway - you are all my brothers & sisters and I will always stand with you. It is not that you joined into MY fight, it is that THE fight for Human Rights is not over - there is a lot still to do, and I am appalled that trans folk have so few protections in place ... So GLB types (myself included) will continue to expand our rights, so that all children in Canada, and all gay people everywhere in the world can begin to l,ive in peace. AND I will also continue my membership in the RHN and likely become more active as I begin to understand the enormity of what my trans friends have suffered ... I salute them as true heroes ... So Gareth, why is it so dif
Bodhi, Toronto ON
07/28/08 9:22 PM EST
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Ooops! Ran out of space ...
Once I hit zero, it would not let me delete anything, nor would it allow me to correct typos ... Oh well ... I meant to say I do not read Xtra ... I was trying to finish by asking Gareth why he finds it difficult to see that I support both spaces? I consider them parft of the same drive for Rights that has driven the GLB movement for years ... And I was pleased to see the comments about how the "T" was added after no doubt a lot of consideration ... Of course that is so passé... It is now (correct me if I am wrong!) GLBTT2QQ...
Bodhi, Toronto ON
07/28/08 9:44 PM EST
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Right ON, Bodhi !
It was great to read your comments. A couple of my friends are trans, and they often feel so marginalized by both the queer community *and* the world at large. They need all the love, support and help we can give them. Gay, lesbian or straight, they are part of our People, the Queer Nation. They have been with us from the beginning, and have frequently had it harder than many of the rest of our People, simply because they are more "visible", and are often picked on as the "freaks" (sadly both within and without the gay and lesbian community). As Emma Lazarus (who also wrote the poem for the Statue of Liberty) famously said: "Until we are all free, we are none of us free."
Nathanial, Slocan Valley British Columbia
07/29/08 6:56 AM EST
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The Usual Suspect: Privileged Gay Male Apologias
Like it or not, Gareth, and you seem not to, your privilege is showing and trying to drag middle-class lesbians in front of you and your pretty wealthy white gay-male buddies is simply disingenuous & rather tired. Fact is, you and your buds have "got yours" now and you wanna find ways to simply justify settling in an being what you've always longed for "respected members of the elite movers and shakers." As Zoe said, fine, now get outta the way and allow your white male guilt to be worked out privately with yourself. I imagine we'll do fine without you, but not with your lame attempts to "paper-over" publically the sneaking suspicion that your logic is driven by your own fear that somehow, this could all go in an instant. True of anything. Get over yourself. And simply try to stop defending yourself by dragging others under the wheels of the bus or holding them in front of you to take the blows directed at yourself. The only "rationality" in your words is the "rationality" of the over-privileged trying to deny that he is.
Nichole Weberring, Philadelphia Pennsylvania, USA
07/31/08 11:42 AM EST
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oh poor white gay man!
Oh poor gay white men and women why do we slag them so? My black queer Trans man, son of immigrants is playing my little violin for you and saying thank you great white Massa for giving little old me so much over the years. Give me a break. Garth, you in your ignorance failed miserably to acknowledge the black and Latino drag queens and transsexuals who were at the forefront of the Stonewall riots and the beginnings of the North American Gay Liberation movement. You talk about being opposed to ranking of hierarchies of oppression but folks like you have been stomping over: people of colour, transsexuals, Trans folk, street involved queer folks for years to get to your middle class tower of privilege of marriage, and condos and what not. Yeah, I was there for ACT UP! the GO Centre in Ottawa before they ever thought of L,or B, or for god sakes T in the name. I was there in the first Pride in Ottawa. But where were the likes of you for me when I was beat up in a gay bar in Ottawa for being too black , too butch too damn fabulous by your same white middle class gays and lesbians. Where were the likes you… when I went looking for services and support around transitioning in the 80’s, and 90’s and was met with puzzled pity by middle class gays and lesbians? Excuse me and other Transsexuals for once demanding to be put high up on the agendas or even on the agenda of LGB? community agencies that we have been contributing to for years. That’s ok. … I am used to fighting for what I want... So I will, but thanks for giving us added fuel. Ignorance like yours needs to be eradicated.
Justiz, toronto ON
08/13/08 12:10 PM EST
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a responce to bohdi and gareth
to bohdi first, i agree with the poster under you, right on! and the full list to the best of my knowledge has an I in it, lgbtti2qq, for intersex. thank you for your love and support *hugs* now to Gareth, i have read all but maybe 3 or 4 posts on this list, after about 40 minutes of reading, you get a bit of trouble focusing, but i have noticed you have not become overly popular with this, though i am sure we can agree, you were not seeking a popularity contest. however everyone has made very good points, that queer people suffer from gender discrimination and labeling all the time, that our struggle is that of a FAMILY's, not of individual subgroups. however i do not think we can completely avoid making an order amongst ourselves of who is more and who is less, if for no other reason then no one has a better way to decide what to do next. but what we need to do, in my opinion, is get everyone on equal standing. once our whole community... no, our whole family is viewed, to the best of our ability, as equal to eachother, we can then move forward, refreshed and with more support and members then ever. it would increase the strength we have, given that now we are pretty much hearing a "I'M more important, no I'M more important!" arguement from you, it seems that we are going to do nothing but fight amongst ourselves much in the way people fought against our family to stop us getting where we are. have we come so far as to fall into the same grouping as those we have fought so hard against? i don't believe we have, and i believe we need to help the part of the family that has fallen behind, so that once they catch up, we will be all the stronger. helping a group that isnt always exactly like your own isn't neglecting benefit to anyone, with renewed numbers, more support, and more freedom of gender expression for all (including our straight supports who do not fit gender norms) we will be able to take steps forward, arm in arm. *this is my first post.
Teal-Rose, Toronto Ontario
08/13/08 3:41 PM EST
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it cut me off o_O
i was just adding on the end there, that this was my first post of this type, and i hope i did well.
Teal-Rose, toronto ontario
08/13/08 3:44 PM EST
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You May Not Like What He Says
Spend ten minutes at a table with Jessica and you will witness for yourself why many people are struggling with what Gareth presents in his article. I resent terribly the insinuation that because I am a gay man and have a tiny bit more protection that that somehow disqualifies me from having a voice. I loved the argument that someone brought to Gareth's words about percentages of death and hate and it somehow challenging Gareth's statements about hierarchies of oppression. Laughable. This is exactly what he is talking about and it is exactly why people like myself have given up. Institutions that have been at the forefront of our movement for years are a shadow of themselves because the business of the day was disrupted with this nonsense. When the fight is about us instead of us fighting - nothing is accomplished. Really. People like Jessica need us alot more than we need them and until they figure that out and start coming to the table with some solutions and an attitude of cooperation instead of some righteous arrogance - expect to get nowhere. The same thing happened years ago when gay men and lesbians first tried to figure out how to work together. The dykes helped the gay men battle AIDS in ways that will never be repaid. We've gotten along fine for the most part - after we figured it out. You can't just show up and make demands. That gets you nowhere. Just where you are now. That is why men like myself are saying, "Hey - if we aren't doing enough for you, then perhaps it's time to seperate and you go your own way and we go ours." Get in front, get behind or go the fuck home. I have worked just as hard for the trans people of Ottawa as I have for gay men - perhaps even harder. It's a pretty hard blow to be dismissed by someone who has no idea of that simply because I am a man. You might not like what Gareth says, but at the very least, you should consider what he has to say. He's more in tune wi
Robin, Ottawa Ontario
08/27/08 9:13 PM EST
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