Dan savaged by glitter before Vancouver talk
ACTIVISM / Activists accuse provocative columnist of a variety of 'isms'
Gareth Kirkby / Vancouver / Monday, January 23, 2012
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Dan Savage was glitter-bombed before his appearance at the Vogue Theatre in Vancouver on Jan 21, the third such action against the high-profile sex columnist and political commentator in recent months.

A group of six activists, who named themselves The Homomilitia for the event, said they confronted Savage as he entered the theatre through a back-alley entrance.

In an interview with Xtra after the confrontation, activist Fister Limp Wrist accused Savage of "ableist, racist, transphobic, fat-phobic, sero-phobic and rape-apologist attitudes and views." Activists handed audience members bright pink pamphlets outlining their accusations as they entered the theatre.

The Lavender Menace hands out a pamphlet accusing Dan Savage of transphobia and other "dismissive to downright hateful" behaviours at the Vogue Theatre.
(Gareth Kirkby)

They are building on the work of trans activists and friends of trans people who glitter-bombed Savage at university appearances in Eugene, Oregon, and Irvine, California, last November. At one event, an activist threw a heavy glass jar at Savage's face after leaping on stage. Savage managed to duck despite having glitter in his eyes and escaped what one audience member described as "a concussion or worse."

Queer activists have historically used glitter-bombing as a tactic against conservative politicians and high-profile anti-gay bigots, Vancouver protester Lavender Menace notes. Asked if she lumps Savage in with such people, she says people have different ways of contributing to oppressive systems.

"Savage is taking on being a speaker and leader in this movement. We have to take that into account," she adds. "He's part of a broader [group] of gay, white, cis-gendered, able-bodied gay men focused on gay-marriage priorities. We want to say those priorities are messed up."

Wikipedia notes that glitter-bombing is a tactic of US activists used mainly against people opposing same-sex marriage rights.

Savage has defended himself against the accusations while also speaking out for trans equality on the website of Seattle's Stranger alt-weekly newspaper, where he works as editorial director.

In response to a written question from the Vancouver audience asking why he's the subject of denunciation by some trans activists, Savage spoke of the "journey" that society, including himself and other gays, have gone through in the two decades since he started his sex advice column.

Back then, he said, he didn't have a firm understanding of the nuances of trans issues. And as an activist, he said, he understands the effectiveness of public confrontation with public figures as a means of shining a spotlight on important issues, as ACT UP did on AIDS research funding and public policy.

But, he said, there was an element of opportunism in the glitter-bombings and denunciations that selectively pull quotes from past writings taken out of context. He routinely invites trans people, including Kate Bornstein and Buck Angel, to respond to questions from readers of his column - a breakthrough in educating people, he claimed.

"If I'm an enemy of trans people," he said, "then [the trans struggle for rights and recognition is] over; it's lost."

Understand the difference between your enemies, like Fox News columnists, and your friends, Savage said. "If you have a disagreement with your allies, you discuss it. You don't attack them," Savage said to very loud applause from his Vancouver audience. To attack allies over small differences is counterproductive in advancing the agenda, he added.

The pamphlet refers to instances where Savage himself has taken aggressive public stands that go beyond an internal community discussion. A case in point is his campaign in the mid-2000s where he called out AIDS activists that he thought were not aggressive enough in insisting on a condom-only approach to sex. Savage created the impression that "bug chasers" and "givers" were a major trend in the gay community and went so far as to advocate that drug-support payments should be stopped for people who have unsafe sex.

In Vancouver, Savage spoke of his large worldwide audience in print and podcast and his efforts to educate about trans issues to a largely ignorant public. But with the public denunciations, he is reluctant to discuss trans issues, and he knows of other supportive writers and bloggers who are increasingly avoiding discussions out of fear of reprisals from activists.

And that would result in less visibility for trans people and issues, he said.

Audience members interviewed by Xtra clearly sided with the provocative columnist they'd come to hear.

Married couple Kate Mathewson and Kate Seiboth took the pamphlet offered by protesters. "We didn't read it, though," says Seiboth, though they scanned it. "But their last point, that he's not welcome in our city, is not true."

"We're here to hear what he has to say," Mathewson chimes in.

West End gay man Brian Anderson also took the pamphlet and put it away for reading after the event.

"I knew it was going to be negative," he explains. "And I'd rather not have that around me now. I don't want it to interfere with the experience. I have a pretty positive view of him. If I put all the positive things I got from his columns and the It Gets Better campaign on one side, and the other politically correct 'isms' on the other side, there's more positive on the Savage side, whatever minor missteps he's made."

But Anderson supports the right of activists to vigorously make their point heard. "It's about free speech," he says, comparing their right to have a say to that of the "Church Lady" who for years denounced gays and lesbians along the route of the Vancouver Pride parade. The tone of the activists' pamphlet ironically reminds him of something "put out by my parish of the Catholic Church when I was a kid."

 

Gareth Kirkby is a former managing editor of Xtra Vancouver. He is currently director of engagement for Pink Triangle Press, which publishes Xtra.




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Reader Comments


 
Talk about a Tempest in Trans Teapot...
Sorry but I'm trying figure how the hell Trans, Trannies or whatever they self-identify as bother with this nonsense (glitter bomb...really?). Trans persons are people in transition, hence the word; however, once the transition is complete you're either a man or woman. I'm not trying be cute here but it seems rather redundant to call yourself trans if you have in fact completed the TRANSition. You do yourselves no favours when you attack Dan, allies or others who may hold a different view. Frankly I, as an unapologetic cis-gender male, am sick of the self-righteous, nazi-like tactics of a small but vocal bunch of whiners. Grow a pair or cut them off but either way, grow up. Seriously, this is a temper tantrum disguised as faux indignance and as one who had the joy of being shot for being queer, I see being called tranny as ranking low on my things to worry about. Cue the queer-theory crowd and their indignation...Bring it! Full disclosure note, I have two friends (Chloe and Michelle) currently in transition and both love to call themselves trannies, so I use it with them in mind. If you're offended, deal with it.
Jon, Montreal Quebec
01/23/12 6:18 PM EST
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simply wrong
Wrong target activists!. This is clearly a opportunistic attemt at publicity, and one aimed incorectly. Gliiter bomb Christy Clark, glitter bomb homphobic school trustees, But Dan Savage is one of us, and is doing 99% good things. These actions alienate me from their cause. I sometimes wonder what trans people have in common with gays. They are mostly straight men who want to be strait women, or vise versa. They have only attached themselves to the gay community because we are the only ones accepting enough to ally with them.
doug, vancouver bc
01/23/12 6:28 PM EST
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Glitterbombing is stupid and lazy.
Glitterbombing is stupid from the get-go. They are the sign of laziness and an unwillingness to plan and organize. Those who partake in this madness seem to want a quick rush rather than a much more satisfying end results of attaining your rights in a way which sustains these same rights.
a. mcewen, columbia south carolina
01/23/12 6:35 PM EST
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Arrest them
Why weren't these thugs arrested? You can't go up to people you don't like and dump foreign substances on them.
David Numein, Vancouver BC
01/23/12 8:05 PM EST
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A taste of his own medicine
It's good to see the "holier-than-thou" Dan Savage get a taste of his own medicine.
Rick, Toronto ON
01/23/12 10:14 PM EST
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Dan isn't transphobic
He's cissexist. and in case you don't know what that means... "Cis-" as a prefix of Latin origin, meaning "on the same side [as]" or "on this side [of]" cissexual A synonym for non-transsexual. cissexism The belief that transsexual genders are less legitimate than, and mere imitations of, cissexual genders.
Jessica, Seattle WA
01/24/12 1:08 AM EST
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2011: Year of The Glitter Bomb
Civil disobedience took a shiny new twist during the second half of 2011, with a sprinkling of glitter bombings that bedazzled a stunned nation in its wake of sparkles. Thanks to glitter pranksters, or “the Glitterati”, as they like to be called, the “glitter bomb” hit the mainstream media and glimmered its way into an all but lackluster cultural lexicon. Although historically, the use of glitter-like substances dates way back to Paleolithic times, and the US Army even considered sending glitter out the back of airplanes to confuse radar during WWII, it wasn’t until recently that that this common crafting item was weaponized at the hands of Glitivists. Do glitter bombs represent a violent assault deserving of criminal charges as critics like Mike Huckabee would like you to believe? Or are they “non-lethal and non-violent manifestations of immense fabulousness” as Dan Choi affirms. Whether you can “feel the rainbow”, or have a shimmering mess on your rug to clean up for years to come, what better time than Glitter Day, to reflect on a glitzy new trend that gleamed its way into political protest theatre in 2011... Read more here: http://feastoffun.com/topics/trends/2012/01/11/2011-year-of-the-glitter-bomb/ www.facebook.com/HausOfMarsian
Marsian, Los Angeles California
01/24/12 1:24 AM EST
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Cissexist/Transphobic
Dan Savage has a savior complex and refuses to examine his cis privilege. He is bigoted and belittles trans* people's existence and ignores the existence of genderqueer, intersex, and non-binary individuals. Trans* doesn't mean simply transitioning from one gender to another, there are more than two genders. Savage is a self-proclaimed ally, which doesn't work if the people within the movement denounce your involvement in their movement. He says "If I'm an enemy then the trans* struggle for rights and recognition is over" which just reeks of his usual holier than thou attitude, his idea that he is God's gift to the movement.
Janee, Boston Massachusetts
01/24/12 3:35 AM EST
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Cool
So...I can throw shit on a liberal now?
libs_stink, canada canada
01/24/12 3:46 AM EST
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Trans Irony
I'm glad to see "trans" people acting out in this obviously inappropriate, abusive way towards a famous gay man only because it will shine a bright light on how abusive "trans" activists have been towards lesbians and feminists for many, many years. I don't use LGBT because T has no business in the mix -- it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Most of the "trans women" I have encountered are among the most sexist, anti-lesbian, anti-feminist heterosexual men I have ever met. They are obsessed with propping up and perpetuating sexist "gender roles" and many of them openly and lividly hate feminists for not ascribing to their ideas of what a "feminine female" should be. Natural born women are constantly under attack by these "trans" activists. Maybe Dan Savage will open his eyes to their abusive sexism now that he's been made a target of their insanity himself.
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/24/12 5:06 AM EST
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Late to the Party
Hetero Male Trans have been stalking Michigan Womyn's Festival and slashing tires, cutting water lines, flyering with pictures of their dicks, etc. for many years now. It's about time they subjected gay men to the same treatment they've been giving us lesbians for years. Maybe the gay men will wake up.
A Lesbian, Hart Michigan
01/24/12 5:51 AM EST
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Target Priorities
Certainly, there are more appropriate targets out there for activism like this, no matter how prejudiced and depressing I find Dan Savage. Transactivists have been busy lately, dealing with the "tranny" word usage, and the claim by cis-folk that "cis" automatically has negative connotation to it, is hateful in its origin, and should not be used. I mean, I dislike the thought of Dan getting away with his crap as much as a lot of others, but it's not going to win anyone over, especially those who specifically came to see him.
fluffywalrus, Ottawa ON
01/24/12 6:14 AM EST
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"cis" is hate speech
By the way, anyone referring to natural-born women as "cis" women is indulging in anti-woman hate-speech. These whack-tivists will do anything, say anything to tear down natural-born women, to diminish us, to invade us, to destroy our safe and private spaces. Why? Because they're eaten up with jealousy towards women in general -- and outright hatred towards feminist lesbians who call them on their sexist "gender role" stereotypes. The sooner the gay and lesbian communities as a whole figure out the true agendas and intentions of these sexist heterosexual MALES parading as "women", the sooner we can realign our loyalties and priorities. As others have pointed out before me: how would African-Americans feel about white men in black-face and afro wigs parading around, demanding to be called "black" because they "feel black"? Claiming that natural born African-Americans aren't "real, true" African-Americans, they're just on a continuum which includes the black-face, afro-wig wearing "blacks" who grew up white in a white family, but "always felt 'black' inside"? Uh-huh. Think about it people.
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/24/12 6:43 AM EST
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Hate shows its true colors.
When you treat the word "cissexual" as hate speech or a slur, you are admitting that you see trans people as subhuman - because if trans people were human in your eyes, you would not mind being put on the same level. Therefore, the only reason to resist the word "cissexual" is hate.
Kate LBt, Minneapolis MN
01/24/12 7:53 AM EST
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Women-hating men
The only reason to use 'ciswoman' is to degrade natural-born women, to tear us down. That's obvious to anyone who bothers to think it through. To the men who identify as "trans women", natural-born women can't just be women. We have to be qualified, diminished, knocked down to size, marginalized, re-configured, re-constituted. It's classic misogyny from heterosexual males seeking to dominate and control us by defining us. I don't hate men who identify as "trans women". I just don't buy into delusional, hateful re-framing of womanhood -- of women's reality -- by biological males who have zero idea of what it actually means to be female. I am a natural-born woman and if you are not a natural-born woman then YOU don't get to define ME.
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/24/12 8:18 AM EST
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Right and left apparently DO meet at the bottom
A Lesbian and RoseVerbena: Does it ever bother you at all - even a teeny-teeny-tiny-tiny little bit - that you're arguing essentially the same exact position as the religious wingnuts who would strip you of the right to love and care for other women? The position of the religious right and of radical feminism on trans womanhood is EXACTLY THE SAME. The rhetoric is exactly the same. The made-up fearmongering examples are exactly the same. There is literally no daylight between the two positions. That should give any self-styled radical a moment of pause. Or several.
Kate LBT, Minneapolis MN
01/24/12 8:18 AM EST
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Humorless adult children
These morons need to get their priorities straight. Just because they are an insular group that can't deal with certain words or the nuances of language and context and would like them to be banned outright doesn't mean the rest of us adult folk should tolerate their juvenile shenanigans. Go "glitter bomb" a real enemy, while you're at it learn how to have an effective conversation with a real enemy. Explain all you want why you feel certain words are offensive, but the bottom line is that not even a majority of your subculture will agree that they are offensive in every situation. The situations that Dan has used the words in recent history have been supportive and affectionate. Get over yourselves.
Jerek Carper, Chicago IL
01/24/12 12:20 PM EST
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Trans ideology = Taliban ideology vis gender
What do radicalized "trans women" and the Taliban have in common? Plenty! They see gender roles as sacrosanct and immutable: "male brains" and "female brains", appropriate "male behaviors" and "female behaviors", humans being naturally endowed with an appropriate "male role" or a "female role" at birth. The only difference is that "trans women" see these sexist gender roles being fused to some mythical spot in the brain, while the Taliban sees sexist gender roles as being fused to physical sex. That's it. Like fundamentalist Christians and every other sexist who has ever walked the earth, these "trans women" think that "feeling feminine" or "feeling masculine" is not a reflection of being raised in a sexist culture. Instead, rigid sex roles were supposedly handed to us, immutable, like Moses receiving the ten commandments. Feeling "trans" is not sexist culture clashing with an OCD brain! No! Sexist gender roles are part of the wiring of the human brain itself -- handed down to us carved into pink and blue stone. Little girls (or boys with "little girl brains") are born to play with dolls, wear pink skirts and be "sweet". Little boys (or girls with "little boy brains") are born to play with guns and horses, wear blue pants and be "active". It's utter sexist nonsense -- claptrap -- but they cling to it because this is the only way they can understand and explain this idea they have that they are "really" female or "really" male, in direct contradiction to their own (usually) perfectly normal, healthy bodies with DNA opposite to their obsessively proclaimed "real gender identity". They can't just be male AND wear pink skirts or
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/24/12 12:29 PM EST
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Depressing.
It's depressing how many people conflate gender identity and gender role, either innocently (have not thought about how the two can be noncongruent) or maliciously (conflate them in order to unperson trans women). Gender identity can be best thought of as a flag in the brain saying "I am a man," "I am a woman," "I am a 'wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey'." NOTHING MORE THAN THIS. Gender identity does not have an effect on behavior other than "do I feel that I am a man or a woman or S?" That is literally the maximum extent of it. You are completely wrong as to how trans people see gendered behaviors. As you are on every other aspect of trans existence.
Kate LBT, Minneapolis MN
01/24/12 2:00 PM EST
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Trans Mafia
The Trans Mafia is at it again. Misguided, psuedo intellectual morons. It's a good thing they do not speak for a majority of the Trans people in my community.
TJ, Toronto On
01/24/12 2:15 PM EST
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unperson?
@Kate LBT -- No one is "unperson-ing" you. If you have physical form in a human body, then you are a person. Claiming that anyone possibly could "unperson" you is an attempt to garner sympathy in an inappropriate manner. As to having a "gender identity" outside of your biological sex (your DNA) that is not colored by gender roles, that's impossible. How else does it manifest itself but via gender roles? Insisting that people call one "she" instead of "he". Insisting on having an "F" rather than an "M" on one's driver's license and passport. Insisting on entering women's dressing rooms and women's showers instead of men's dressing rooms and showers. Wearing women's clothes and accessories instead of men's clothes and accessories. These are all social constructs: language, adornment, sex-specific gathering places for washing and disrobing, etc. If a person refuses to just accept and BE the sex that they ARE without imposing on others to validate and agree? What's the problem with that? The problem is that people living in the "trans woman" mythology impose on others to validate and agree, to accommodate and accept them as other than what we actually perceive "trans women" to be (not a "real" woman, but a biological male.) How do "trans women" achieve this goal? By adopting "female drag" to some degree (a sexist cultural construct) in order to pass (fool people), or if they cannot pass, then by bludgeoning others with threats and glitter until we toe the line as dictated by the "trans woman's" imaginary "gender identity". Well, my answer is, "No. Bludgeon away if you must. I shall not yield to irrationality or to sexist cultural constructs."
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/24/12 3:01 PM EST
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@RoseVerbena
You are a disgusting transphobe who clearly has absolutely no knowledge of how transgenderism works (hint: it's in the mind, and science has actually recorded similarities between how trans women and cis women's minds work -- because y'know they're both WOMEN). But by all means, please keep living in your privileged bubble. That's all I have to say to you. And to everyone else - just because Dan Savage has done some good for white, cisgendered, able-bodied, gay men doesn't make him an LGBT ally. He's said plenty of terrible, hurtful things about basically everyone else in the community and practically refuses to educate himself. He's called Buck Angel a "she", for crying out loud. Who could make that mistake?
Ren, Toronto ON
01/24/12 4:15 PM EST
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Oh Dear. . .
If it's acceptable to glitter-bomb public figures to protest their homophobia then it is equally acceptable to glitter-bomb public figures to protest their transphobia. Either glitter bombing is a legitimate means of nonviolent protest or it is not; you can't posit legality or ethicality on the basis of agreement. As to the argument on the legitimacy of trans womens' identities, the persistent refusal of radical feminists to examine their own hypocrisy in this regard is deeply troubling. If the self-expression of trans women "needs to" be strictly policed and restricted, then so also must the self-expression of cis women be policed and restricted. You cannot reasonably argue that for one class of people the "greater good" should trump individual liberty, yet for another class individual liberty should trump all.
Desiree R., Portland, Oregon N/A
01/24/12 4:26 PM EST
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@Ren - I don't agree with you
To reiterate: "Bludgeon away if you must. I shall not yield to irrationality or to sexist cultural constructs." There is no science to back up the "trans woman" construct, just obsessive desire, fantastical conjectures and and an endless array of unproved hypotheses that change from day to day. There's certainly NO excuse to physically attack someone (by throwing sharp bits of glitter into their EYES) for disagreeing with the "trans" hypothesis de jour.
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/24/12 5:47 PM EST
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Who is policing whom?
Didn't Dan Savage just get policed by "trans" whack-tivists -- physically attacked in an attempted/potential blinding -- for his "thought crimes"? For not thinking and saying exactly what these whack-tivists want him to think and say?
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/24/12 6:11 PM EST
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Factually incorrect, Rose.
"There is no science to back up the "trans woman" construct, just obsessive desire, fantastical conjectures and and an endless array of unproved hypotheses that change from day to day." Oh, so you admit now that you literally have not bothered to update your scientific knowledge since the mid-1970s (David Reimer conclusively demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that a neurologically-based gender identity exists and that forcing people to live in a sex that contradicts that identity is inherently harmful). And also that your obsession blinds you to the fact that trans men are out there, too, and they are no more women than trans women are men. You have no grounding to stand on other than unreasonable bias, and when bias meets fact, bias MUST yield.
Kate LBT, Minneapolis MN
01/24/12 6:24 PM EST
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trans queer is not gay
to A Lesbian in Hart, hear hear! I have been aware of and disturbed by trans attitudes towards lesbians and gay men for at least 15 years (when I became aware of it through the gay/lesbian-phobic words of Kate Bornstein, various queertrans artists like G. B. Jones, and the Gender Queer Theorist who found their abstract human in the form of the transman and genderqueered. The problem is that so many gay men (burned out by AIDS and so much else) have been lulled to the (saccharine) concept of LBGT as one big happy family, mostly of people they have never met and know little about the T. At the same time as this trans activists (the new genderqueer and transmen taking over from the old transsexual MTF who was the face of trans for decades) fought hard to link trans with the new political Queer people. And they did -- they are now one linked entity. To be Queer politically now does not mean being gay (or lesbian) if gay is transphobic (has any criticism of anything related to trans anything). Trans and Queer mean having a new identity that is the opposite of those reactionary white gay men "haters" and their power and privilege. This is the issue. Gay men do not know the degree to which we have been identified as the direct oppressor of trans (and Queer) people; moreso than any Right Winger because according to older Gender and Queer Theory, gay men (and lesbians) really ARE a form of trans as well by our gender variance; now gays and lesbians who are not trans are called "cis", a totally different species than any trans person. Wake up, gay men indeed! The showdown between these two groups is happening on a wider stage now. And after waiting for 15 years, I hope it leads at last to a total separation into two entities with no links other than supporting each others' basic human rights goals as a public platform (the way gay men and lesbians interact -- we are not each other but both support the human rights goals of the other -- indeed we won them
when will gay men wake up, Toronto Ontario
01/24/12 6:33 PM EST
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"MUST yield" LOL
That's what it's about for guys in a patriarchy, in a nutshell, isn't it? Power-plays and forcing women to "yield". Therefore it's not a big surprise that "trans women" want natural-born women in general -- and lesbian feminists in particular -- to "yield" to their sexist "trans womanhood". Not. Gonna. Happen.
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/24/12 7:24 PM EST
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Now THAT was predictable.
Clearly, mere fact must bow to ideological demand and pressure, because the right of people to identify themselves, for themselves, is nothing next to your PERSONAL demand to avoid any sort of complexity in gender. Because really, Rose, your real definition of woman is "who I, RoseVerbena, want to have sex with," and you don't care about anybody's rights but your own. To quote the Doctor : "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering." I'm out because there is no productive conversation to be had with someone who only exists to abuse and beat and batter.
Kate LBT, Minneapolis MN
01/24/12 7:29 PM EST
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The tragic case of David Reimer
What David Reimer's case clearly demonstrates is that people with XY chromosomes are male -- and that Dr. Money probably belonged in prison, not providing 'care' to a child injured in a tragic accident. Biological sex is not something that can be overcome with dresses, shots of hormones, surgery or wishful thinking -- that's what David Reimer's case tells us. Tell me, please: why do "trans women" and their activist friends almost always misquote, misuse and misidentify medical research and medical cases as "supporting" their ideas when a careful review of the research or cases in question never lives up to anything like "support" for "trans" mythology? Do you rely on other people not following through and reading the literature?
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/24/12 7:45 PM EST
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The Womyn's Festival folks were right after all
As a gay male, I want to apologize to the lesbian attendees at the Michigan Womyn's Festival. When I first read about the conflict between the festival organizers and trans activists, I assumed without really thinking about it that the lesbians were probably being sticks in the mud or were just being mean and exclusionary. I was wrong. I really did not understand the degree to which trans activists carry aggressive rage and the degree to which that rage translates into violence and threats of violence. Trans activists are mostly heterosexual identified and they have issues that are best handled with the assistance of a therapist or similar caring professional. I can now understand how women would not feel safe at their festival in the presence of trans activists b/c I would not feel safe in their presence. An errant word or unorthodox opinion and they would feel entitled to assault me, just as they assaulted Dan Savage. We need to seriously revisit the wisdom of altering the gay and lesbian community to incorporate a group of largely non-gay, violence prone thugs.
Pascal, New York NY
01/24/12 9:25 PM EST
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homophobia
At least trans whacktivist Casebeer didn't want to kill him with a baseball bat. Does anyone remember that story? I didn't know that trans activists are such hateful pricks and full of homophobia until recently. We should fight the blatant homophobia within our own community first??
Michael, New York City Queens
01/25/12 12:32 AM EST
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Some Facts
@RoseVerbena wrote: "What David Reimer's case clearly demonstrates is that people with XY chromosomes are male".... One little problem with that. Two, actually. 1 in 300 men aren't XY, and some women are. As in this case: "A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis." -- J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9. Naturally, I'll be accused of "misquote, misuse and misidentify medical research and medical casesmisquote, misuse and misidentify medical research and medical cases" that a "careful review" would debunk. Yet somehow, they can't give a reference to a single one such "careful review". Not one. Just ideological polemics that boil down to "it's against my religion" by authors who haven't even read the papers in question. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but no-one's entitled to their own facts. XY chromosomes don't make someone male, and yes, some people's chromosomes change without them changing sex (see Bone marrow-derived cells from male donors can compose endometrial glands in female transplant recipients by Ikoma et al in Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2009 Dec;201(6):608.e1-8 ). The problem is that their whole ideology is based on these two superstitious beliefs: that XY means male, and chromosomes can't change. Faced with contradictory evidence that would overturn their whole world-view, the reaction is to say "La La La, I can't hear you, Junk Science, Misquotations, Misuse of facts". The trouble is, Google is your friend, and anyone can check the references that contradict their "Flat Earth" beliefs. They hate that.
Zoe Brain, Canberra ACT
01/25/12 1:59 AM EST
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No
Don't you even dare tell gay people that marriage equality being a priority is "messed up". I won't criticize what you may be lobbying for, so I demand the same respect.
Stuart, New York New York
01/25/12 2:48 AM EST
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Oh look!
A "trans woman" misquoting, misusing and misinterpreting supposed scientific "facts". LOL That never happens! Hey dude, here's a hint from a real scientist: the human race procreates via binary sex -- male sperm (XY) and female ovum (XX). The fact that there are occasional, rare or bizarre mutations of the chromosomes does not change this fact any more than the occasional deaf newborn changes the fact that we are a hearing species or an occasional newborn missing a lower limb changes the fact that we are a bipedal species. I don't do pseudoscience and I don't approve of people using pseudoscientific clap-trap as an excuse to physically assault Dan Savage or anyone else who disagrees with all or part your mythology. You're not female. Get over it. Or don't. I don't really care. Just stop assaulting people and trying to force yourselves on women in general and lesbians in particular. It's creepy.
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/25/12 3:16 AM EST
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Facts are persistant things
@RoseVerbena - I'm not Trans, I'm Intersex. One of those "occasional, rare or bizarre mutations" you arrogantly dismiss as unimportant. As for the rest - yes, we're a hearing species. And a bipedal one. And a dark-haired one, with brown eyes, and right-handed. That's the majority of humans anyway. But few would say that we should count as inhuman anyone with red hair, or who is left-handed. Transsexuality is unusual, I'm not claiming it's universal. You're claiming it can't exist, that the evidence must be "pseudoscience" because, well, just because. As for me being female? The diagnosis is "severe androgenisation of a non-pregnant woman", apparently due to the 3BHDD form of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. One of several Intersex conditions that can cause a "natural sex change", the most well-known ones being 5ARD or 17BHDD. They're both FtoM though. Anyway, I identify as female, always have done, though I agree the case is arguable and not clear-cut. The medics and biologists say I am anyway, the theologians not so much. As for you being a "real scientist" - a scientist would give references. Such as "Gender change in 46,XY persons with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency." Cohen-Kettenis PT. Arch Sex Behav. 2005 Aug;34(4):399-410. What's your latest paper in, BTW? Mine's in the Journal of Chemical Physics, even though my thesis is on evolutionary computation and meta-genetic algorithms. No, I won't believe you have any scientific training - not without some evidence. Show me facts if you wish to be credible, then I'll change my opinion once I verify they're not stuff you just made up on the spot.
Zoe Brain, Canberra ACT
01/25/12 4:29 AM EST
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These comments are full of transphobic hate speech
Roseverbena: How can you possibly reconcile the cognitive dissonance of your making claims on behalf of "natural-born women" and then just a little bit later claiming that "No one is 'unperson-ing' you." What's the complementary adjective for the term "natural?" When you call trans women "unnatural" then yes you are re-defining them not as people but as constructs. You sicken me.
friday jones, Sunnyvale California
01/25/12 7:33 AM EST
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Speaking of re-defining
-When you call trans women then yes you are re-defining them not as people but as constructs.- And they are re-defining females and lesbians. That's also sick.
Milia, England London
01/25/12 8:06 AM EST
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your facts are trumped by your hate
Zoe Brain, you must have so much time on your hands. Every trans posting on a range of blogs ends with your arrival. Spewing endless "facts" in your typical arrogant know it all "my shit don't stink but yours does stupid" manner. Any facts you cite are rendered meaningless to me by your utter hatred of gay men and most men and anyone who is not an intersexed person like you. Your bitterness and rage makes you another blog screamer no matter how microscopic you cite researchers and test tube theories.
when will gay men wake up, Toronto Ontario
01/25/12 8:09 AM EST
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Like them or not, Facts exist
I'm sorry you consider facts meaningless. Still, they exist, the Earth's not Flat no matter what your or my personal beliefs. If I'm wrong - just show me. I've changed my mind before now when new, better evidence comes in, and will no doubt do so again, even beliefs I cherish and hold dear. One thing I won't do is accept argument by assertion, unevidenced conjecture masquerading as truth just because it's shouted loudly, and statements that are just plain factually incorrect. This doesn't make me popular in certain circles - theological ones mostly - where such things are standard. As regards hate, I think others can read my posts and judge for themselves. Whether I'm a horrible person or not though doesn't affect the evidence. If you wish to contradict it, just give better evidence. Over to you on that one. If the Lavender Menace - a Radical Feminist Lesbian group - hands out leaflets attacking misogyny, rape-apologia, racism, and a whole litany of evils (including transphobia), it seems odd to describe them as "trans activists", that's all. While some Trans women are Radical Feminists, or Lesbians, or both, the majority of Radical Feminist Lesbians are as (non-trans) as you are. I think even RoseVerbena would agree there, and say that a few Radical Feminist Lesbians not only don't support trans people, but actually reject them. To call these women "Trans Activists" would be seen as a gross insult, one I'd never consider uttering.
Zoe Brain, Canberra ACT
01/25/12 10:42 AM EST
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Intersex? Nope.
As I understand it, Alan Brian aka Zoe Brain, you have insulted and offended lots of intersex people with your wild self-diagnosis. They reject your claims. Your claims don't add up. As to "unpersoning" you or any other "trans woman": if you are actually intersex then that's what you are: intersex. Not female or male. If you are actually a male claiming (disingenuously) to be intersex, then you are neither intersex nor female, you're a male. If someone is born XY with normal male sex organs (testicles, scrotum, penis, prostate, seminal vesicles, etc.) -- like David Reimer -- then he is male. No one is erasing you, abusing you or "unpersoning" you by calling a spade a spade and a wrench a wrench. Reality trumps all. You may be a special snowflake in your own mind, but the rest of us look at you and see...snow. That's not hateful, that's reality. Even if a man really, really, really, REALLY wants to be a lesbian, that's what he is and will forever be: a man who _wants_ to be a lesbian, NOT an actual, _real_ lesbian. He doesn't belong in lesbian or women-only spaces and he has no right to physically attack people for saying so.
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/25/12 1:49 PM EST
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Women? Nope.
FYI: "...But few would say that we should count as inhuman anyone with red hair, or who is left-handed...." -- This is the kind of manipulative histrionics I was speaking of yesterday. No one on this thread except "trans" whack-tivists have claimed that people who identify as "trans women" are "inhuman". They are certainly human -- they're just not WOMEN -- and absolutely not lesbians. That's all. It's pretty simple.
roseverbena, Seattle WA
01/25/12 1:59 PM EST
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LGBT must end
I am so encouraged by the comments here. Maybe we can finally wake up and realize that there were very real and serious consequences that came from contriving "LGBT" in the 1990s. That concept was made up and imposed. It wasn't debated and nobody was given an opportunity to vote for or against it. It has proven a disaster for gay men and lesbians. It is fundamentally anti-gay, inasmuch as it is based on the premise that gay men and lesbians are in conflict with their respective genders. We aren't. To the extent that it lumps 2 discrete groups together b/c homophobes don't distinguish b/t us, then it is a codification of homophobic beliefs. It is reactionary, sexist, anti-gay and illogical. It also leads gays down a host of paths that have little or nothing to do with their stories and their lives. One need only read Zoe Brain's comments here to see that. Even if she is correct in everything she says, her concerns about spontaneous genetic mutation and the like have as much to do with gays and lesbians as information about the Mars rovers. Every minute we spend on these non-gay issues is a minute we are not spending in furtherance of our own liberation, liberation which would indirectly benefit the whole world. LGBT needs to end. I hope that lesbians will start to speak out more forcefully on this.
Seanna, Allentown PA
01/25/12 2:38 PM EST
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Zoe Brain ain't intersex
As an REAL Biological born intersex person, Zoe Brain AKA Alan Brain isn't an Intersex person. Zoe brain has insulted, pissed off and even offended every intersex person alive. Zoe Brain isn't intersex, but a middle aged transsexual with an identity crisis. Zoe likes to pretend to be intersex and pretend to have all these conditions. Even spending every day of his life posting nauseating crap about having every intersex condition under the sun. Even posting peseudoscience and scientific facts that have been disproven time and time again in order to justify his transsexuality. His claims of being intersex don't add up and no intersex person believes his claims. Zoe Brain is a Joke and frankly a transsexual intersex wannabe.
XSIAM, Boston MA
01/25/12 3:45 PM EST
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filled with joy!
I am filled with joy by many of the comments here and on other blogs that are looking more closely at these trans issues. I have long believed in complete separation of the groups -- that LGBT IS A LIE! That sexual liberation means liberation of the real self which means the celebration of male genitals by men with male genitals and females with females. Not people with vaginas claiming to be gay men then hysterically calling any man who will not turn on to their vaginas (or call their clits a penis) bigots (and the same for women who do not turn on to penises). This was once the major fighting point in sexual liberation because straights could not or would not believe that males with penises would desire other males with penises (and females with females' vaginas). After winning all of them over but the religious maniacs (who want NO ONE to have genitals), we get the post-LBGT Trans Queer Gender Theorists telling us that such gay men and lesbians are monosexual bigots who need to open up and not be like the racists they are (the usual response from trans whacktivists to any rejection of Buck Angel as not a turn on to this gay man because of Buck's vagina has always been "and you don't like blacks or asians I bet". WRONG! ALL MALES with penises born and raised are on my list -- if they also possess secondary male characteristics. All people with vaginas no matter how male or butch they appear through drugs or surgury are not. This fact of life sex 101 is TREASON to trans whacktivists. And it is time their entire apple cart be exposed as Victim Inc. bullshit. Go get your own human rights but leave gay and lesbian out of it! And if you claim you are both trans and gay or lesbian, then work it out the way other multi-identity people do. Happy days are almost here. The stranglehold of silencing and censorship is OVER! Smash the Trans Tyranny and the LBGT LIE!
long time gay separatist, Toronto Ontario
01/25/12 5:13 PM EST
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To long time gay separatist
Thank you so much for your frank and honest post. I never use "LGBT..x" either. When did I get to vote on adding heterosexual men with gender issues to our alliance? Never. There is nothing bigoted about wanting penis or not wanting penis, about wanting vagina or not wanting vagina. Sexual orientation is a completely different concept from "gender issues". When I found out that there were heterosexual men running around trying to force themselves on lesbians by claiming to be themselves a "trans woman lesbian" -- and declaring that any lesbian who didn't want to have sex with them is bigoted or "transphobic" -- I was horrified and disgusted. How fricking dare they? Most of these guys aren't even post-surgery (not that would make it any better, really.) They expect to undress their 6'4" hairy, male-muscled body and wave their penis and scrotum in some lesbian's face and have her say, "Oh, yum, a lesbian!" Or else she's a bigot? Calling these people our allies is INSANE.
roseverbena, Seattle WA
01/25/12 5:50 PM EST
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Internet Kooks
Now it's been confirmed that the actual deed was done by a group of Militant Gays - the "Homomilitia" - and pamphleteering done by Radical Lesbians - the "Lavender Menace" - will the article blaming "Trans Activists" be corrected? As for the personal attacks on me - There's a noted Internet Kook, Nikki Chaleunphone, Man, and sometimes Lesbian, of a thousand aliases, who attacks all Intersex activists as fakes, and his eccentric claims are repeated as truth by the clueless. Hence some believe his claims that I'm a middle-aged disabled balding man in a wheelchair, who married at the age of ten, etc. The film on examples of Intersex I appeared in is all CGI, according to him, I'm not doing a PhD nor a lecturer at the ANU etc. Oh, and I'm an expert hacker who has put false information - as in http://people.cecs.anu.edu.au/user/3923 - in numerous places, magazine archives etc. Whatever. Those who believe his stories never actually check.
Zoe Brain, Canberra ACT
01/26/12 12:46 AM EST
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but ya are Blanche
Zoe Brain, it really does not matter who or what you are since your raging misanthropic hate-on for gays and lesbians has long been recorded on bilerico and other blogs where your flip and condescending contempt is visible for all to know you. Anything you say is now filtered through that lens -- no matter who you really are. Also credential pissing contests are so 20th century! Oh, and it doesn't matter who the group was that attacked Dan -- the trans and queer agenda is their ideology, so nice try but trans whacktivity remains the culprit in the Dan attack.
ha ha, Toronto Ontario
01/26/12 8:17 AM EST
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Zoe your not intersex
Alan Brain,Your not intersex and quit pretending to be one. We all know you like to pass misinformation and claim to have every intersex condition under the sun. We all can see right through your BS postings to justify your transition. We all know your not intersex but a transsexual with an identity crisis. Your just an intersex wannabe and every biological women including roseverbena, is smart enough to know your lying and all your postings are nauseating to everyone. Your a FRAUD and a liar. Even people within the trans community such as Andrea B, know your a deluded liar, con artist and a intersex wannabe.
Andre, Boston Ma
01/26/12 10:39 AM EST
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the struggle
in 1977 i decided that i was gay and decided to begin the process of coming out. along the way i met lesbians, some who had real problems with gay men(and they had reasons for feeling this way). then i discovered bi people who also had real problems with gay men(for good reasons). then i met trans people who also had problems with gay men(for good reasons). now i have many great friends and the public in gereral who are straight allies which i appreciate very much. i no longer hang out in the GLBT community for good reasons because your all so fucking mean!
harry grunsky, vancouver b.c.
01/27/12 1:22 AM EST
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no struggle if you don't hate yourself
I feel sorry for you, Harry Gruntsky. To hate gay men so much that you shun us, and you buy the hype from trans and bisexuals who always dump on us is a shame for you. Perhaps one day you will get over your self-loathing and need for approval by other groups and celebrate being a man loving man. In the meantime, good luck with your gay hatred.
happy gay, Toronto Ontario
01/27/12 12:08 PM EST
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No problems with LGB
I have never had more than a rare problem with a gay, lesbian or bi person. Sure, there is the occasional ass-hat, but for the most part they have been rational, respectful people. I don't know what's up with "trans women". I suspect it's part of their disorder to be histrionic, manipulative, abusive and pervy. For example, when was the last time a 51 year old lesbian tried to force herself on eighteen-year-old girls in a Texas all-girls dorm, like that retired Navy dude who decided that his "trans woman" experience just wouldn't be the same if he couldn't sleep and shower with the college girls? Or the guy that just got sentenced in Portland for donning his "trans woman" attire so he could hang out in the showers/dressing rooms at the local pool with the little kids and abuse them? Or the dudes who just can't help going all the way to the Michigan's Womyn's Music Festival so they can invade women-only space, attend workshops on lesbian sexuality and talk about their cock rings? They don't belong in the sexual minority alliance -- they belong in long-term mental healthcare at best and prison at worst. I for one am done with the lot of them. Give me a gay drag queen who is open and honest about the fact that he just likes to dress up in drag any day of the week over some straight dude who looks like The Terminator in a Jackie Kennedy suit and tries to perv in the women's dressing rooms at the local dress shop.
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/27/12 12:35 PM EST
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more happy than gay
dear happy gay. you missed my point. i have many gay, bi, lesbian, trans, straight friends. i don't get involved in the "organized gblt/ltgb/tbtl/bltg community" p.s. check the spelling of my name !
harry grunsky, vancouver b.c.
01/27/12 2:37 PM EST
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curious....
As a straight guy, who's experimented all over the place, I wouldn't phuck a trans with Dan's dick. Why? Because man-made pussy looks like a blown-out truck tire that's driven through the mud, and I know first-hand. Is that trans-phobic? or just cisheterosexist? or is just saying it phobic.
Doot, Vancouver BC
01/27/12 2:55 PM EST
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oh... I forgot to add.....
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWW!!!!!!1111
Doot, Vancouver BC
01/27/12 3:03 PM EST
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Wow.
What is WRONG with you people? The vast majority of comments automatically assume that anyone who identifies as trans* is horrible, "wrong", and needs to shut up. Tell you what: We'll shut up when you all start treating us like actual people, not fetishes or "mistakes". Dan Savage has said NUMEROUS transphobic, cissexist things in the past, and he CONTINUES to say them. He also seems to harbour quite the hatred of those who identify as asexual as well. And, for the record, Buck Angel is an equally horrid trans* activist as well.
Alex, Tacoma USA
01/27/12 3:44 PM EST
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Buck Angel is a homophobic fraud
Buck Angel has serious mental problems. Obsessing over "turning" gay men onto the pussy as zim's mission, Angel has gone mental ballistic on blogs in a psychotic manner when challenged. Something seriously wrong with that person personally and "professionally" to be so homophobic (almost like an ex-gay reparative therapist trying to turn gays onto the vagina) Angel is a disgrace to sexual liberation. And to Alex above, now you are getting the tip of the iceburg of gay and lesbian rage at trans people after a decade of being slapped in the face with their shit. The tide is turning and it is the fault of your own "trans whacktivists".
Truth Johnson, Toronto Ontario
01/27/12 4:13 PM EST
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Oh, "Truth".
You know so very, very little. That much is obvious. Why don't we take a look at how transfolk are portrayed in the media, versus how gay and lesbian people are portrayed. Do you see many, if any, transfolk on television or in movies or books? If so, are they ever portrayed as actual people with feelings, or as fetish objects? Are gay and lesbian people treated as fetish objects these days, or as people with feelings, relationships, and normal lives? We in the trans* community are sick of being slapped with shit from the queer community for DECADES. You can shut your transphobic, cissexist mouth right now if you think that you're being "oppressed". Try going to a job and running the risk of being fired because of your gender, or being terrified to walk outside at night in case someone decides that you're a freak who needs some corrective rape to make you fit the gender they think you are, and then we'll talk.
Alex, Tacoma USA
01/28/12 5:58 AM EST
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pity party for zim
Alex, so now it is an olympics of oppression is it? A war of victimology. Gays and lesbians are just as much at risk of job firing and assault as trans people. Indeed trans people manipulate stats like the ones from Brazil where it was clearly found that more gay men are murdered per year that trans people but of course those gay male deaths don't matter to transwhacktivists. You ruined it, Zimstren. Your queered trans gender theory bull and hate-on for gay men and lesbians will leave you all out on your own self-made limb. Oh and cis is a hate word. When will you stop your trans bigotry and use of hate speech?
Truth Johnson, Toronto Ontario
01/28/12 8:28 AM EST
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"cis" is hate speech
I keep telling them that "cis woman" is hate speech, but they really don't want to let that into their consciousness, do they? I am not "cis" anything. I am a woman. A real woman. A natural-born woman. Call yourselves "trans" if you want to, but don't you DARE presume to name ME or my sisters in relation to yourselves. Don't you freaking DARE think that womankind revolves around your dysphoria or disorder or myth-making. We do not.
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/28/12 11:27 AM EST
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NEVER call me straight
I'm a woman, not a straight woman, and heterosexual woman/ I'm a normal woman with natural attractions. Call yourself "lesbian" all you want - me and my sisters don't revolve around your sexuality.
yah that, Toronto ON
01/28/12 2:34 PM EST
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@ya that: false metaphors = zilch
Is biology too intransigent for you, "yah that"? Too real? Do you think that millions of years of evolution should just fall away like dust before willfully constructed, utterly unfounded, culturally-based myths about "gender identity"? The structure of the human body -- from the double-helix of the nucleic acid in each cell, to the muscles and sinew, to the bones and blood, to every organ, every hormone, every inch of skin or hair -- is real. It exists in a place called "reality". You don't get to just change it into something else because you WANT to, no matter how badly you WANT to. Playing with words doesn't change reality. Making up stories doesn't change reality. Surgical mutilation doesn't change reality. Taking dangerous hormones doesn't change reality. Make-up, dresses and hairstyles don't change reality. Reality trumps everything else. Whatever "trans" people and their whacktivist buddies are up to this year or next year has NOTHING to do with changing real males into real females or real females into real males. Why? Because reality says so.
RoseVerbena, Seattle WA
01/29/12 2:32 AM EST
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Funny that
First, I was born a woman and will die a woman. Funny you should mention evolution and biology with your disordered evolutionary dead end attractions. I don't care anymore about LGB people I'm an old woman who remembers the late 60's and you people deciding I was "straight". Any idea what "straight" meant back then? "Straight" people were the warmongers, the patriarchy, the enemy of the progressive counterculture. Screw you and your predatory sexuality - FORMER sister-in-arms
yah that, Toronto ON
01/29/12 3:50 AM EST
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Zoing
wow surprise cis people dont like being labelled cis. What u dont like labels LMAO
indi, sydney nsw
03/28/12 10:29 PM EST
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