Toronto Baptists pray outside gay couple's house? Church insists it's a "misunderstanding"
RELIGION / Church member says group wasn't targeting gays; pledges to go to "different areas"
Scott Dagostino / Toronto / Tuesday, August 24, 2010
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At about 8pm on Sunday night, Geoffrey Skelding was watching a movie with his partner when he heard a loud argument outside his home on Highfield Road, near Dundas and Greenwood in Leslieville. Witnessing a standoff between a group of his neighbours and a group of well-dressed churchgoers, Skelding grabbed his video camera and shot the footage that's now been posted to YouTube and watched more than 12,000 times.

The invading group was comprised of members of the Highfield Road Gospel Hall up the street. They stood on the sidewalk, singing and yelling out Bible verses as they've done many summer nights before.

"I don't know exactly what they were saying beforehand," Skelding says, "but I'm told it was directed at a gay couple living in a house in that area." Ironically, the unidentified couple was not even home at the time and Skelding says he's been told that they, like most of the neighbourhood, have tolerated the Baptist group until now.

When Skelding and his partner moved into the neighbourhood back in January, "we were told about this crazy church at the end of the street and they might come and knock on your door and tell you you're a sinner. We didn't think anything of it — they sounded like the Jehovah's Witnesses — so I was surprised by this. Another lady said they do the same thing on her street behind my house."



"We have the authority to preach the gospel," says a member of the group in Skelding's video. It's been reported that he adds, "We've been doing this for seven years."

"No, not seven years, sir," corrects a contact at the Highfield Road Gospel Hall on the phone with Xtra, "It's 70 years, maybe more. This is not some new thing that just popped up, we've been involved with preaching the gospel to the community for 70-75 years."

Asking that he not be identified ("I just don't want to be smeared"), the Gospel Hall contact says, "It appears there's been a major misunderstanding. I wasn't there [Sunday night] but I've been involved with outdoor services like that for over 40 years, every Sunday night, weather permitting, on a different street. From what I understand, someone felt we were targeting a specific house but we would never stoop, never stoop to target any group such as gay people. That's very low."

"This was not a protest in front of a house," he insists, "We do not get involved in political issues, social issues, people's gender persuasion. We're not out in the street with a vendetta to change anyone, we're just out telling the world's greatest story."

Whether their neighbours like it or not? Jane Farrow, executive director of "urban literacy" project Jane's Walk, lives in that neighbourhood and says, "I've only talked to a couple of the queers I know on the street so far but they've definitely said they'd be into helping out with 'reclaiming the street' if more things were to happen in the future... Clearly, people have a right to wander the streets, sing gospel tunes and read the Bible, but if you start doing it on a regular basis and over a period of years, I think it constitutes invasion of privacy and harassment."



Writer and AIDS activist Brian Finch, no stranger to protest, agrees that evangelizing in front of people's homes is "crossing a line." Activism, he says, is "about challenging policy and systemic things, not going to Tony Clement's house. Burning crosses on the lawn is the extreme end of that continuum. It's really really wrong and I'm shocked to see it in Toronto."

The Gospel Hall member doesn't disagree: "If it was me, and they were coming in front of my house year-in-year-out with something I didn't agree with, I'd suggest to them they try further up the street to get their message out." He says the evangelical group has already toned it down in recent years: "We're not the only church that does this. We used to spend about half an hour... but we sensed some people were not receiving the message well."

"I'll say it again," he insists, "we do not seek to antagonize or target or stir up strife. We're there to deliver the message of the gospel, that God loves every soul. God does not discriminate. It's a grave misunderstanding on the part of the people who say they're being targeted."

"I'm very very sorry about this," the Gospel Hall contact says, pledging to "make it a point to go to different areas, different groups of houses."

This does little to ease Skelding's mind. "Why don't they just stand in front of their church with its empty parking lot and do it there?" he asks. "The cops did show up but they hadn't heard of this happening. I don't think anyone's reported it before. The cops said if it happens again, keep reporting it. Some people don't care, they don't mind, it's been going on for years, but it's not cool. How do I know they're not going to come and stand in front of my house next week?" Indeed, as the defiant preacher in the YouTube video declares, "In the word of God, next year we'll be here!"

"They're bullies," says Farrow, "which is why it's so awesome the neighbourhood just did the right thing and pushed back."



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Reader Comments


 
Please call the church and politely complain
Please call the church at 416-469-8069 and ask them to restrict their evangelizing to non-disruptive methods (holding events on their own property, passing out flyers without knocking on doors, etc.).
nanimo, Toronto Ontario
08/24/10 6:58 PM EST
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sounds like a misunderstanding and get over it
If they been going this for nearly 70-75 years then and I think he should get over it. It was just most likely a misunderstanding and by the looks of it they don't seem to be in the burning crosses business either. What's next is Brian Finch or the Neighborhood going to get upset if some group sings Christmas Corals at Christmas time and call it hate? Very few Baptists have nothing against Gays or anyone and none are like the Westbroo Baptist Church. I can take this from a personal experience, I did grew up in a religious family and we did this all the time and no we did not target Gay people or anyone. Also they were on a public Street and not on Private Property. Just Get Over or what's next they will do this to a group who sings Christmas Corals at Christmas? I think Xtra need to start clarifying things in their reporting and not just say that all Baptists do this since all are rather independent of each other too. Also how is this any different if Mormons or Jehovah Witness came to your door? They do this all the time.
WTF, Toronto ON
08/24/10 7:26 PM EST
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Who cares??
Burnning crosses on the lawn????? I think that's a bit of an exaggeration...these people were doing nothing of the sort. Get over yourselves it was just a misunderstanding.
????, Barrie Ontario
08/24/10 7:49 PM EST
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Stop What?
nanimo did they force anyone to convert? and how is this any different if Mormons or Jehovah Witness came to your door? or What if they were singing Christmas Songs in the neighborhood at Christmas? is that evangelizing? This just looks like a misunderstanding.
WTF, Toronto ON
08/24/10 8:08 PM EST
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Kick the bums out
Do these church folks (all of them) actually LIVE on that street, or do they just COME to that area and preach around? Either way, it's basically a permanent protest, and nobody should have to endure that in their residential neighbourhood, regardless of the reason behind it.
Randy, Windsor ON
08/24/10 8:41 PM EST
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Comment Above
What if they were singing Christmas Songs in the neighborhood at Christmas?
WTF, Toronto ON
08/24/10 8:46 PM EST
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I wonder?
If was any other religion would this be considered a hate crime by this neighborhood? Just because they are Baptist is irrelevant. Oddly it was a Baptist Minister who founded the NDP and many who are Baptist are members and many are also progressives. As a gay man and a member of the NDP this does look like a misunderstanding. I think I might organized singing Christmas Songs in the Neighborhood(I do live near here to me they were not doing anything wrong since other religions does the same) any around that time of the year and I wonder if anyone might call me a bigot?
James A., Toronto ON
08/24/10 9:33 PM EST
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certainly not a combative group
The men were standing passively on the curb when the camera arrived. The group left when conflict got tense. They are certainly not burning crosses nor are they trying to drive people from their neighborhood. They are trying to get a message out that was not received well, nor understood. See what they believe at www.gospelhall.org
shad, postville ia
08/24/10 9:34 PM EST
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Typical
In my experience, religious conservatives believe--word of god and all--that they can do whatever they want and get away with it. Of course, they never extend that priviledge to anyone else. Still, we have to be grateful that western secular governments do not permit their traditional approaches to dissent: murder for the masses an torture and brtual executionn for individuals.
Chris Vogel, Winnipeg Manitoba
08/24/10 10:11 PM EST
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Way to go!!!
Now just think what a wonderful environment we could live in if we took this approach every time religious zealots showed up.
Colin, Costa Rica Limon
08/24/10 11:01 PM EST
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Really? religious zealots?
They should get over it they were clearly not protesting because they were gay. They look like they were just going down a street. We have Pride and scream in the streets how we love being Gay and I believe many think that we should not have the right to do this but anyway we do and the same laws that allow us to scream that we are gay at Pride are the same rights that these people can use to spread the word of god if they want. This is a democracy after all and everyone has the right to freedom of expression. No one is more equal then others in Canada. I believe Mormons go door to door and so do Jehovah Witnesses, so what is the big deal?
?, Toronto ON
08/24/10 11:23 PM EST
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Getting away with hate speech
To order to get away with hate speech against the gay couple in Leslieville, maybe the Christian protesters should just start chanting hateful slogans against Jewish people in Israel - like Queers Against Israeli Apartheid did in the Pride parade. Then Xtra and the gay Left will fully support their hate speech under the umbrella of freedom of expression.
Elle, Toronto Ontario
08/24/10 11:45 PM EST
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Comment Above
Good point this is freedom of expression issue. Lets have them come to Pride next year I believe the QuAIA and Xtra would support this since this is about freedom of expression and censorship or will they be censors?
WTF, Toronto ON
08/24/10 11:53 PM EST
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What took you so long?
I was waiting to see how long it would take for some grouch to connect this story to the Israeli apartheid issue! Yes, this IS a free speech issue -- hence the story. While everyone on Facebook demonized the church group, I called them and listened and Xtra has provided them a platform to respond -- just as we did during the summer's "apartheid" debate which, in my little opinion, ended as it should, with both QuAIA and Kulanu marching and having a voice. It's about dialogue, not grudges, and you'll notice that everyone in this story agrees that the church group has every right to speak but homeowners have every right to be left alone.
Scott D, Toronto Ontario
08/25/10 12:48 AM EST
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A different take
It is not so much what this church group (or any other for that matter) does or says, it is the way they are going about it... did they file for an appropriate permit with the City of Toronto to use the public space for this activity? If they were a riding association of a political party, or a cultural group seeking to have a festival, or a Pride march (with or without QAIA participation) they would be expected to have sought permission from the relevant municipal authorities and, in all likelihood, would NOT be given permission to conduct their activities on a primarily residential street - any more that a political party, cultural or sports group or Pride parade would likely to be approved to conduct activities on a residential street. Freedom of religion (and religious speech) is not the same as a license to disregard the rules governing everyone else on the use of public spaces, it is more correctly understood to be that they should not be deprived of the same access to public space as everyone else simply because their activities are religious in nature. Just because a group's identification is "religious" doesn't mean that they are exempt from the regulations governing use of public space, be it a park, street or sidewalk... they aren't somehow entitled to monopolize these spaces simply cause they are clutching bibles (or torahs, or korans or whatever) any more than they are entitled to ignore the regulations governing the use of sound amplification devices or signage. If the "religious" are serious about their civil rights, they should be equally concerned about their civil responsibilities and follow the appropriate bylaws... all the Constitution really grants them is access to a level playing field.
Bags, Calgary Alberta
08/25/10 4:49 AM EST
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Queer hypocrisy?
Let's see whether I understand freedom of expression in Toronto: gays get to target Israel, even if it upsets Jews; however, Christians cannot target gays. ...... I don't disagree with this (and it's good to see the Christians being at the other end of the pitchfork for a change) , but it does seem sort of unfair, doesn't it?
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/25/10 8:26 AM EST
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Scott D,, no...
...that's not right. Providing a platform to match what QuAIA was doing would have looked something like this: a group called "Gays against Islamic Fascism" marching in Toronto while carrying a picture of a Mohammed cartoon. Or perhaps a group called "Gays against Palestinian Terrorism". But that didn't happen, didn't it? Freedom of expression only works one way for queer leftists, and the juxtaposition of these two stories is a perfect of example of the hypocrisy involved.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/25/10 8:42 AM EST
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Sigh.
There was no march against Islamic fascism because no group gathered to do it. Quit whining about queer leftists and go make some phone calls and placards.
Scott D, Toronto Ontario
08/25/10 10:48 AM EST
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I don't understand?
We are just like the straights. I have Christian friends/allies. We can even get married, were normal. Why would they target us? We're just like them.
tim, toronto on
08/25/10 11:36 AM EST
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Religion or at least
being a follower of organized religion is a mental illness. I think all members of organized religion should be placed in an institution, immediately. There they can get the help they so desperately need and hopefully the medication as well.
GOD, Toronto ON
08/25/10 12:11 PM EST
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You know as well as I do
...that any group formed to march against "Islamic Fascism" or "Palestinian Terrorism" would last about 3 minutes in Toronto. It would get the same treatment as these dreadful Christians. No, only targets approved by you and your friends are fair game when it comes to freedom of expression. Everyone else can shut up and keep their views to themselves.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/25/10 1:22 PM EST
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Tim...........
We are not just like straights, we have the same rights. Having Christian friends and allies may be nice for you but leaves many of us cold. I don't think, having read this story, that these people were actually targeting anyone. Calm your hetero-normative nerves. You are free to be "normal" without fear of Baptists targeting you. Good luck with that.
Yikes!, Toronto Ontario
08/25/10 2:38 PM EST
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Churches are Private
This is why churches are private. I understand it's freedom of speech, but what gives them the right to preach beliefs on anyone in public? It's like having a cult walk up to you on the street and ask you to drink their special Koolaid so that you can be set free. THE STREETS AREN'T SAFE ANYMORE!!! Great comment GOD (the comment above)
Chris, Toronto Ontario
08/25/10 3:35 PM EST
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Is It Legal?
Is it legal to do such things in front of private homes?
Avinash Machado, Los Angeles California
08/26/10 1:42 AM EST
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Double Standard.
"Religion or at least being a follower of organized religion is a mental illness. I think all members of organized religion should be placed in an institution, immediately. There they can get the help they so desperately need and hopefully the medication as well. GOD, Toronto ON 08/25/10 12:11 PM EST" If I said the same thing about gays, then I would be jumped on for being "discriminating" or "insensitive". I reiterate my title - double standard. I also love how in this article they call on Brian Finch. The ol' pro of protesting. And he is "shocked" by these Christians actions. Which included singing and quoting Bible verses. Sounds like a super aggressive and forceful group of people to me ..... *rolls eyes*. This is a non-issue. A bunch of people who aren't secure enough to just reject something they don't believe should not cry and create a "gay issue" when clearly that is NOT what the Christians objective was.
anonymous, place ontario
08/26/10 2:34 AM EST
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"God does not discriminate"???
If that's true, I wonder how he explains why so many people have been ostricized or killed "in the name of God"....
Rick Mybals, Ottawa ON
08/26/10 12:05 PM EST
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not about queer discrimination
I don't think the issue here is queer discrimination but disturbing the peace. If these guys go into a residential area, sing and shout gospels and preach out loud, then I know I would not want to put up with that. If they are repeatedly noisy then neighbourhood residents have every right to call the police and have them move on. It is irrelevant whether they have been doing this for 75 years or not, and it is irrelevant whether other churches utilize similar methods.
chris damdar, toronto on
08/26/10 12:34 PM EST
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People in glass houses...
I see that a large number of the fundamentalists in question here are from the Caribbean. That begs two questions: one, who do they think they are importing homophobia disguised as religion into Canada, and two, how dare they as people of colour harrass and denigrate another visible minority, namely gay people? People of all minorities should stand together against bigotry, not foment it. While they are entitled to their religious views however repugnent, they have no business coming to this country to stir up controversy with their religious ideology. If they want to preach their venomous ideology, let them do so back in Jamaica. Now, I know I'll be accused and castigated as a racist, but this is not an issue of race. It is, however, an issue of culture and what is acceptable in this, the greatest nation in the world. 'Nuff said.
Kieran, Mount Pearl Newfoundland
08/26/10 2:48 PM EST
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"God" is a loaded fun
Religious organizations in any society are like a loaded gun in your home. You can never be one hundred per cent certain that it won't be used to hurt an innocent person. So just get rid of it. Religion has held sway over huge numbers of people over the entire history of civilization. It persists because of an in-group/out group mentality where the in-group decides what is "moral" and enforces those beliefs; an arrogant, dangerous dynamic in which homosexuals are almost always considered "sinners." The Left has to get over its sensitivity about religious expression and call out faith-based morality for what it is: superstitious nonsense. It is not arrogant to say that science, logic, or reasoning must always trump religion. Acts of humanity and goodness will continue through charitable, secular community organizations. To believe otherwise is profoundly cynical. I applaud those neighbours for asking the evangelicals to leave their neighbourhood. We should all have that courage. Not only are stealthy evangelicals overrepresented as "concerned citizens" in this comments section (only missionaries or uninformed gays could be so untouched by history or the ongoing religious-based persecution of homosexuals worldwide), Harper and his Christian Nationalist party is redefining Canada as a Christian state even as you read this. The end is nigh, but it's not Armageddon that's coming; it's the power being amassed by those who preach a moral order built for simpletons. Holy-rollers? NIMBY!
NIMBY, Toronto Ontario
08/27/10 3:13 PM EST
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Freedom of speech
Ahh yes, Freedom of Speech for me but not for thee... Switch it around...gays protesting in front of churches...or expressing their views in public and offending others...what would we say...? And who says we have the right to define and have exlusive domain over the definition of "activism". These people were being activist for the cause of their god. In their minds they are "challenging policies and systemic things"...
pjr, Toronto ON
08/27/10 7:00 PM EST
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highfield gospel hall
sorry guys but the baptists can't take the blame this time. these folks are gospel hall/plymouth brethren. they love to stir up trouble -- particularly between their own groups. they over practice shunning among their own! -- see www.anchorpointradio.org/GTA_Gospel_Halls html. god love them, no one else does!!!!!
rachel, toronto ontario
08/28/10 7:59 PM EST
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so many issues, so few Queers who care
If "queers" want issues to sink their teeth into, instead of the chic Palestine why not look closer to home. Separation of church and state and the restriction of "religion" in the public sphere is a massive cause that needs to be renewed in Canada (NIMBY above's letter is excellent). Also whatever happened to the "queer" lawyer group who were cataloguing every sex law on the books in Canada with the goal of challenging most if not all of them? The "church" and anti-sex laws in Canada are two issues that could use a few thousand dedicated activists. But I guess anti-Zionism and endless issues around trans entitlement are the de jour guerre de chic for Toronto's dilettante "Queer Community". ps Abrahamic monotheism is about 500 years past its shelf life on earth
dilletante queerism stinks, toronoto ON
08/30/10 7:45 AM EST
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So...
@so many issues, so few Queers who care Would you have wanted Martain Luther King to restrict his religion in the "public sphere"... That is what churches in Nazi Germany did...is that what you want?
pjr, Toronto ON
08/30/10 6:26 PM EST
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Queer Protests at Baptist Homes is Equality
If we are free and equal then Queers can also go to individual Baptist's homes for a Queer style demonstration with noisy yelling, megaphone speeches and maybe some decorative Trannies, nudists, dildo handouts for the children, and belligerent bull-dikes revving their bikes or whatever goes. See how they like it or react. With freedom comes responsibility. Freedom of speech, yes, in a public sphere. But not in a way that disturbs or condemns or assaults the peaceful shelter of of a person's home.
Freedom of Speech, Toronto Ont
08/30/10 7:00 PM EST
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Highfield Road Gospel Hall
Highfield Road Gospel Hall is representative of why Canada has small towns that have rotted over. I grew up in a small town where the United Church shunned, ran ministers out, and generally made trouble for straight people all over town. Most people moved away upon becoming adults. This particular church,Highfield, unfortunely tends to pick up the retards off Queen street and involve them in a so-called Church that definitely wants donations. My cousin is a "witch" who is used to gather donations for his "coven"? He is also a half-wit. So lets not take this too seriuosly - but do talk about it.
Bryan Charlebois, Toronto Ontario
08/31/10 11:13 AM EST
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Seriously!?!?!
From "Really? religious zealots?": "...the same laws that allow us to scream that we are gay at Pride are the same rights that these people can use to spread the word of god..." It is not "the word of God" that they preach, it is their slanted interpretation of God's word. They slant it in the direction of hate. They use the guise of religion to spread their disease.
Shawna, Whitby Ont.
08/31/10 11:36 PM EST
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