QuAIA drops banner from Wellesley subway station
NEWS / Queers Against Israeli Apartheid makes statement on parade day
Marcus McCann / Toronto / Sunday, July 03, 2011
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As Toronto’s Pride parade steamrolled down Yonge St on July 3, a group of queer activists dropped a 40-foot banner off the roof of the Wellesley subway station.
 
The group, Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA), voluntarily withdrew from the parade earlier this year after city councillors threatened to yank Pride Toronto’s funding.
 
The move caps a two-year saga in which some councillors claimed that QuAIA breached the city’s anti-discrimination policy, rendering Pride Toronto (PT) ineligible for city funding. A report from the city manager’s office eventually exonerated QuAIA and Pride Toronto.
 
Tim McCaskell, one of the organizers of QuAIA, compared the banner drop to tactics used in early AIDS activism.
 
He said that the banner represents a commitment to convey QuAIA’s messages without jeopardizing PT, which lost $450,000 last year and could face bankruptcy if the city withholds its nearly $125,000 grant in 2011.
 
“In the parade, we got a simple message across. This is a little more nuanced,” McCaskell says.
 
QuAIA dropped at 40-foot banner from the roof of Wellesley Station at 2:30pm on July 3.
(Marcus McCann)
The banner does not use the phrase Israeli apartheid, but it calls for gays to boycott Israeli tourism.
 
Lauren Prangg, who was standing on Wellesley St when the banner was unfurled, says she feels that QuAIA should have marched in the parade but that the banner was a good alternative.
 
“QuAIA has done exactly what they said they would do, by not participating, and letting the parade go on,” she says.
 
But that doesn’t sit well with Joanne Cohen, a former member of the Canadian Jewish Congress, who was also on hand.
 
It’s clear that QuAIA can’t be “civil,” Cohen says, and compared the action to that of the Black Bloc during last summer’s G20 summit in Toronto.
 
“That’s city property. That’s TTC property. They did not get consent to do that,” she says.
 
That’s not exactly true, says a subway manager Xtra spoke to at Wellesley Station. The station’s roof houses an outdoor tennis court, which is owned by the neighbouring condo building, according to the TTC employee, named Janet.
 
PT staffer Ryan Lester and board member Roy Mitchell were quick to admit that the banner drop was a “complete surprise” to them.
 
“The organization — staff and volunteers — were not aware of the banner,” says Lester.
 
PT has no control over the TTC’s subway stations, and the organization didn’t “activate any infrastructure inside TTC property,” Lester adds.
 
Mitchell says that even though Wellesley Station is geographically close to the parade, Pride Toronto doesn’t control the station.
 
“They could have put this on the Lakeshore for all we know,” he says.
 


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Reader Comments


 
wow
Go have a gay pride parade in Gaza.
Meir Weinstein, Toronto Ontario
07/03/11 5:07 PM EST
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aww
Don't be down Meir, it's not your fault that we're fabulous for justice and your bitter and jealous.
queer for queers, TORONTO Ontario
07/03/11 5:38 PM EST
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wow
I am not down at all. Time is on the side of Israel and you worship at the feet of Arab Oil. You walk around with hate for Israel and turn a blind eye to real hate. You can still change.
Meir Weinstein, Toronto Ontario
07/03/11 5:55 PM EST
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Meir, where were you this year?
Meir, we missed you and your roughs at Pride this year. You had such a good time last year, why didn't you "come again"?
Davey, Toronto ON
07/03/11 6:11 PM EST
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justice
I would say dropping a sign from a rooftop and possibly having it hit a child or a senior in the crowd has nothing to do with justice. The sign wasn't light enough to blow around, and even if it scared one unsuspecting citizen or visitor coming to see the parade, is more then selfish, stupid, and still making fun of taxpayers who have funded this parade and its clean up for more then a decade. You want political, GO into politics. You are cowards, and bullies be it against Israel or people with varying views. You stand for diversity, yet you are as intolerant as you claim others are towards you.
Jamie, Toronto On
07/03/11 6:19 PM EST
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That's 15 Dundonald, Transglobe property
Well, after a busy hostile day at Pride dodging QuAIA, turns out your humble correspondent alerted the owners of the property at 15 Dundonald, owned by Transglobe Property Management, who support LGBT equality and ISRAEL, FYI, and who had the crap down in less than half an hour. I suspect QuAIA didn't have permission either. Nice friends you got, Pride Toronto, and we'll be sure to pass this on to City Councillors mulling pulling Pride's future funding. Good luck hosting World Pride 2014 - Israel hosted it (and Pride Toronto) in 2006.
Joanne Cohen, Toronto ON
07/03/11 6:38 PM EST
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Making a statement that they are asses?
Is the statement that they are a bunch of assholes who want Pride to get its funding pulled? Normally, this gesture would be pathetic but insignificant. But after yesterday's invasion of the Dyke March by QuAIA pretending not to be QuAIA and not fooling anyone, and with Pride funding being threatened again because of it, you'd think these jerks would lay low. But their narcissism,as usual, overcame their concern about Pride. Assholes!
Jimminy Cricket, Toronto Ont
07/03/11 7:57 PM EST
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Folks...
Your responses here are so silly, you're really stretching....the banner was putting children and the elderly at risk? This is exactly what QuAIA said they'd do: not march in the parade and participate in their own stuff. No one took over the dyke march, a contingent marched. International human rights are a big deal to queers. Get over it!
Lol, Toronto Ontario
07/03/11 8:36 PM EST
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This whole thing is absurd
QuAIA's actions, no matter how you feel about them, were very obviously not sanctioned by Pride, and near-impossible to prevent due to the scope of the parade and the limitations of the army of volunteers and security available. It saddens me that calmer heads just can't seem to prevail over this issue. I feel sorry for all sides involved; you're all so busy frothing in indignation, you can't see that no matter what happens, the only winners in this situation are people like Giorgio Mammoliti - people who want Pride diminished or destroyed to satisfy their own sense of decency.
Casey McNally, Toronto Ontario
07/03/11 8:47 PM EST
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Well, the police are already on it
Well kids, turns out QuAIA's selfish stupid little escapade is already under investigation by TO's finest. That incident no. is G16107, trespassing on private property, mischief to property, endangering public safety. And thanks to Xtra and QuAIA and Tim McCaskell for taking credit for this unlawful behaviour in Xtra and queersagainstapartheid.org. City Council has been alerted, and if you'd like the boys at 51 Division to give Mr. McCaskell a friendly call, why not call them at 416-808-5100. I already have. See you in court.
Joe Public Interest, Taronna ON
07/03/11 8:56 PM EST
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Well!
I'm guessing they can not be the centre of attention. So I guess Xtra was also behind this as usual since they had this on video and of course it proves they are in bed with the QuAIA. So on the matter of human rights. So why are they not protesting Syria? Around 1400 civilians were killed in their streets demanding freedom from same dictator the Western Left so much and yet no protests by the Gay left over this. I'm just saying if it is a matter of human rights but it seems to be only with Israel with these assholes
Ben, , .
07/03/11 9:34 PM EST
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Offending Current Societal Norms
Remember when Pride used to be all about politics and activism for our rights...Oh maybe you don't...Too bad. Pride has become nothing more then a rush to be politically correct and,everyone is scared of offending city hall for fear of losing funding for what has become little more then a big commercial gay themed summer party. That is not what I marched for years ago. Fuck city hall,the absent mayor and those who condemn others for exercising their right to free speech, even if you happen to disagree with their viewpoint or their tactics. That is what Pride was all about,fighting for rights for the minority,and it very much included offending current societal norms in order to achieve it.
Bill Talbot, Niagara-on-the-Lake Ontario
07/03/11 10:02 PM EST
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wow
Xtra is promoting the leader of the anti Israel BDS gang. This guy says, “International law does give people under occupation the right to resist in any way, including armed resistance.”
Meir Weinstein, Toronto Ontario
07/03/11 10:05 PM EST
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Shame to both sides.
It bothers me that both sides are trying to put their political/ religious views ahead of the meaning of Pride Toronto. Pride is a celebration of the LGBT community, not about views on a situation across the world. There is a time and place for everything; this is not the time nor the place to wage your battle.
John Michael Howe, Vancouver BC
07/03/11 11:12 PM EST
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What?
These anti-Israel folks are absolutely absurd. Fame whores! I have yet to hear a convincing argument from these desperate people. It's tiresome.
Publicly interested, T.O. ON
07/03/11 11:43 PM EST
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So glad I didnt go to pride
i will continue to boycott as long as pride is going to sanction what queers can say or cannot say when it comes to the term Israelie aparthied.
Casey, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 12:03 AM EST
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Radical Awesome
Awesome! These types of actions are so important for a true democracy. People make their own decisions. The fact that a select few Ultra-Conservative, Corp World Zionists are "offeneded" and trying to silence minority voice speaks VOLUMES about what's really going on here. Follow the $$$ trail. GREED/POWER/CONTROL. VIVA LA RESISTANCE! HAPPY PRIDE, Peace and love to ALL LGBT Q brothers and sisters around the world, especially the suffering and oppressed. xo
Nick Crane, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 12:55 AM EST
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Tell it to the cops, awesome boy
Funny, isn't it, that QuAIA's 'radical awesome' fans advocate lawlessness and anarchy as 'democracy'. Not surprising, but disappointing, but tell it to City Council and the Attorney General and the Chief of Police, and read your law books, boys and girls, because QuAIA broke the law. How would you like YOUR building invaded by them? Of course, they support Muslim terrorism with no gay rights as 'democracy' too. Whatevah. See you in court, and can't wait to see the fireworks at City Council, when Pride claims 'oh, we didn't know'! Yaaawn.
Tell it to the coppers, Toronto ON
07/04/11 2:11 AM EST
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Visit Israel
I went to Israel recently. And I'll probably go again next year. It's a great place to visit and it's a very gay positive place. A lot of the guys are smoking hot (well, not the orthodox guys...) Sure, it would be better if the Palestinians were happy, but nothing will make them happy. They could end all the trouble there tomorrow. The ball is in their court.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 7:14 AM EST
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Maladjusted, narcissistic righteousness addicts
I'm not totally convinced that QuAIA are anti-semitic although that's how it seems at first glance. I think it's more likely that they are socially maladjusted attention whores. They've always been around and they're not going away. They're only happy when everyone is looking at them and they are able to indulge in their righteousness addiction. The target of their vitriol doesn't really matter and changes from decade to decade. It just happens to be Israel now. They've found a button to push and they're going to push it. The fact that this hurts Jews along the way -- well, it's at least a little anti-semitic that they don't care about this. They wouldn't dare do this to any other group. Somehow it's OK to piss of the Jews.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 7:21 AM EST
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Irony
Considering how many members of QuAIA are Jewish, it's pretty rich to describe the group as "anti-Semitic". I don't know how else to describe a situation where an entire population is restricted from travelling on certain roads and into certain areas of the land they were born and raised in, have no political rights or agency in the government that has control over the borders, and can be harassed at any time by the military and police forces operated by said government, as anything but apartheid if Israel insists on retaining control. It's either apartheid or occupation, your choice. It is wrong to endlessly punish an entire population.
observer, toronto on
07/04/11 9:20 AM EST
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Is the JDL still supporting the EDL?
Mr. Meir Weinstein...care to enlighten all of us on whether or not the JDL is still supporting the English Defence League? Also would not mind an update on whether or not the FBI and the Southern Poverty Law Centre still regards the JDL in the US as a "terrorist organization" and "hate group" respectively.
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 9:28 AM EST
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STOP PUBLIC FUNDING OF..
..THIS SPECTACLE OF EXPOSED PENISES AND JEW-HATE.
CUT THE FUNDING, Toronto ONT
07/04/11 9:36 AM EST
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QUAIA & CAP. It all makes sense
QUAIA has now made a complete mockery of the CAP Report. Even if a panel said your messages are promoting negative sterotypes, they have shown they will not leave - they are all about defiance, like a bunch of angry 14 year olds. Puts to rest the CAP process once and for all - nothing will restrain these narcissistic morons from their stupid offensive messages. Now they have once again baited and mocked city council to our detriment. So it seems they not only hurt and harm the Jewish community with their malignant hate, they mock city council, the city,and the gay pride parade as a whole. Hey QUAIA, while you were hanging your banners illegally to demonize gay positive Israel which helps gays, the Islamic conference at the Metro Convention Centre was telling people to kill gays - where were you? That just speaks volumes.
Charles, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 9:56 AM EST
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Champions: Arab apartheid / Muslim apartheid
Arab apartheid / Muslim apartheid are the largest 'apartheid systems', that exist today.[1] Virtually all non-Arabs and/or non-Muslims are second class citizens.[2] Among minorities that feel the wrath of the bigoted Arab-Muslim world are: * Berbers (native N. Africans, before Arab invasion). * Copts (indigenous Egyptians suffer from both: Arab racism and Islamic bigotry). * Kurds. Examples include: [Saddam's] Iraq and Syria. * Blacks, in Arab lands or in Arab ruled Africa like the genocide in the Sudan and slavery in both Sudan and in Mauritania. * Asians, particularly in the Gulf Arab states. [Sex slaves or "plain" slaves). * Maronites-Christians [Native Lebanese] suffer from both Arab ethnic racism and religious bigotry, like the massacres in the 1970s by local Muslims and by Palestinian/Syrian forces. * Assyrians, are/have been persecuted both racially and religiously. Still very much marginalized in Iraq, for example. * Iran is not an Arab country but racism is huge against Kurds, Jews, Turkmens, etc. So is anti-non-Muslim bigotry against Christians, Bahai, Zoroastrians and other in the Islamic republic. * Turkey is also a Muslim non-Arab country and Kurds, Greeks, Armenians and other ethnicities have been through much suffering, genocide. Still there's great wide racism against non-Turkish ethnic groups. Turkey's policy in Cyprus has also been recognized as a real Apartheid by many. All non-Muslims are automatically branded as "foreigners" at the "moderate" Islamic supremacy of Turkey. * All non-Msulims in 'Islamic Apartheid state' of S. Arabia. * Al-Akhdam in Yemen. * Gypsies in Jordan. --- Islamic-Arab "Palestine" apartheid: * Ahmadiyya Muslims are harshly persecuted in (Pakistan and in) the "Palestinian" Apartheid authority and/or by Hamas. * Descendents of slaves of the Bedouins are still stigmatized by racist
Mali, London UK
07/04/11 10:28 AM EST
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Racist 'Apartheid-Palestine' VS Israel
What would have happened to queers in racist, Islamic-Apartheid totalitarian anti-Christian, anti-Jewish racist of 'Palestine' (controlled by children of Arab-immigrants, who call themselves as Palestinians since the 1960s)? As opposed to tolerant cosmoplitan democratic Israel?
Melissa, Dallas TX
07/04/11 10:35 AM EST
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Xtra collectively with Pride Toronto
Maybe that is why Pride Toronto put Kulanu at the end of the parade line this year. Maybe,that is why xtra has posted one photo from hundreds, of the Kulanu contingent this year. Very Clear Xtra, and Pride Toronto, wanted them to look invisible this year.
Hannah, Toronto On
07/04/11 10:42 AM EST
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Pride marred by professional hate groups
CP24 says Georgio Mammolitti was filming the parade - so he feels he found something. The sign on Wellsley subway will for sure scare away our political support. We just delivered ourselves into the rat maws of Rob Ford. Layton/Horvath may not come next year nor the 14 councillors. Tim Hudak will certainly win the provinccial election and cut our funding. We have delivered ourselves into the hate of these two groups. I find both of them revolting. They will continue to fight out their foreign hate games and neither could care less if they destroy Pride Toronto.
Bryan Charlebois, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 10:51 AM EST
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QUESTION
Since when did Xtra become the Jew hating mouthpiece for QuAIA and Hamas??
Dante, Toronto ON
07/04/11 11:29 AM EST
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rebels without a clue
Dante -- the answer to your question when did Xtra become the mouthpiece of QAIA and Hamas -- is ever since Uber Queers decided to cherry pick Israel as their pet hate on -- an easy, sitting duck target for their bourgeois re-activitism. Whatever the Imperialists hate, the Queers support -- even when the group they are supporting would as soon shoot them in the head as look at them. Queers in Lockstep -- the stoopid, it hurts.
anti-right left hater, Toronto ON
07/04/11 11:35 AM EST
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The biggest parade ever..according to reports
Joanne so nice to see you are still around I miss our discussions.....and yes Jerusalem hosted World Pride in 2006, I lead the Pride Toronto support Team there. Jerusalem Open House faced threats, hate and attacks from within israel. WP was postponed once because authorities were afraid they could not protect WP. We all had a $5000 bounty put on our heads for being gay . The main purpose of holding a World Pride in Israel was to push for greater rights for gays in Israel and region. BOTTOM LINE..If a gay Israeli married me. I would have full rights of residency and voting in Israel..if an Israeli man married a Palestinian from Gaza would they be allowed the same rights. NO. [clarification: Israel recognizes Gay mariage, but does not sanction it on its own soil] Pride is about celebrating who we are, in any way we want. Taking off our shirts, or our pants, or wearing a pink wig, or dancing in a beverage garden, or marching in a parade. It is our personal choice and our freedom to participate in any manor. If my personal choice is to voice an opinion I HAVE THAT RIGHT, and by saying take away funding to Pride because you do not like my voice or the voice of any one else negates everything we fought for. That is what we fought for and continue to fight for. .there were THOUSANDS of participants in the parade, each with their own reason to be there...I walked with friends in several contingents on Sunday..including Kulanu [50 participants].....if this disagreement between Zionists and Palestinian supporters over shadows the parade it is because we have allowed it to consume it and if we loose city funding because of it I will personally hold Mamoliti, Mier and Martin responsable...because hatred takes many forms, and this is purely anti gay and nothing less..The old Tshirt saying goes..I do not care if you are Gay or Str8, Jewish or Scottish, Black or White, Asian or African, Man or Woman...if you are an asshole, you are an asshole.
Mark Smith, Toronto ON
07/04/11 12:04 PM EST
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QuAIA -evicted from 15 Dundonald?
Mark, thanks - I agree to disagree with you on issues of anarchy at Pride Toronto. I attended for the first time in many years only to witness this continued creation of hostile environments for Pride participants, particularly Jewish and Israeli and Israeli Palestinian queers and their families who support human rights and LGBT equality. QuAIA has demonstrated reckless disregard for the wishes of the Pride Toronto community (who claimed in depositions to city council they would ask them to leave but failed to do so). How can Pride Toronto claim to be a welcoming environment when anarchists invade and hijack our parade, and engage in unlawful behaviour? Latest reports are a tenant affiliated with QUAIA at 15 Dundonald breached her tenancy agreement by displaying this banner and recklessly endangered the safety of Torontonians. Property management is pursuing an internal investigation and the tenant may face eviction, in addition to any police charges laid by the property management against the tenant, Tim McCaskell, and QUAIA. Last year QuAIA members were filmed assaulting peaceful spectators at the parade holding signs in support of Israel and LGBT rights. If you support QUAIA, you support lawlessness, not human rights for all queers, and not the continued survival of Pride Toronto. Their 'free speech' is now unlawful and under investigation by building management and police and City Council and others. Choose your friends carefully. And QuAIA, find a lawyer, and another place to live, and maybe Councillor Wong-Tam will sponsor your defence and tenancy at Pride, because no one else will. I look forward to watching Pride Toronto's attempts to convince City Council and international tourists to come to Toronto for World Pride 2014 in the presence of this anarchy. I won't be there, that's for sure.
Joanne Cohen, Toronto ON
07/04/11 12:40 PM EST
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Mammoliti needs a few phone calls
1. I think QuAIA is immature, short sighted, and willfully took a chance to further their own agenda at the cost of Pride funding. I would say they should be ashamed of themselves, but they are obviously not ones to take a moment to think beyond themselves in situations like this. 2. That said, Giorgio Mammoliti is a joke. He is using a sad little groups cry for attention and trying to pin it on Pride organizers. It is not about be fiscally responsible ... he is a man who is obviously uncomfortable with the LGBT. Here is his contact information: Toronto City Hall 100 Queen Street West, Suite B27 Toronto, ON M5H 2N2 Phone: 416-395-6401 Fax: 416-696-4218 Constituency Office 1885 Wilson Avenue, Suite 209 Toronto, ON M9M 1A2 Phone: 416-395-6401 Fax: 416-395-0358 councillor_mammoliti@toronto.ca
DillonS, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 12:52 PM EST
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ah, she's back
Joanne Cohen, you make no sense - anarchy, children and elderly threatened. We were hoping the break you took would have helped you..surely they prescribed medication along with bedrest? Anywho, great to see you're back. We all need a good laugh now and then. :)
tina, toronto ON
07/04/11 1:01 PM EST
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garbage scow fakes
Mali from London thank you for that intelligent and wrenching list of atrocities against minorities perpetuated by almost every Islamic country on earth. Again, the Queer Rebels will ignore all of those struggles because they are not EASY and SEXY and aligned with Queer and Oppression Theories that they like to live out and prove to each other. They are dilletantes who care nothing about actual human suffering and only in their own smug self-righteousness. Obnoxious phonies playing Che to shock the aspidistra matrons. Infantilism as pretend politics. Tantruming as pose snap photo op.
the poseurs leading the posed, Toronto ON
07/04/11 1:11 PM EST
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Tina, get off the pipe
How lovely to be addressed by 'Tina' - isn't that a nickname for crystal meth (another illegal activity celebrated in the queer anarchist crowd). No, babies, I don't need no medication and glad I make you laugh - let's see you laugh when QuAIA's evicted from 15 Dundonald and convicted of unlawful behaviour and let's all get a good yuck out of the upcoming media circus at City Council. Oh, BTW, my work endures in LAW protecting the rights of many thousands of queers internationally, and in Israel too. And QUAIA and Tina, well, they'll go the way of their poster children Elle Flanders and El-Farouk Khaki and perhaps Councillor Wong Tam. Let's all watch and learn now, and Xtra, geez, ever heard of investigative reporting? How about confirming how QUAIA falsely claimed consent from management of 15 Dundonald for this action? Gotta run - life to life, sans Pride Toronto and your riff raff. That's what our ZIONIST Jewish groups and rabbis won for you at the Supreme Court and Parliament with international effect. Ciao, Tina. Sorry, anarcha-queers, but bashing Israel and unlawful behaviour and public nudity are just NOT what this out gal is all about. We are NOT family. Capiche?
Joanne Cohen, Toronto ON
07/04/11 1:18 PM EST
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@ Joanne Cohen
Hi Joanne...Simply labelling something "anarchist" does not make it so. Simply labelling something "hate speech" does not make it so. QuAIA kept their word - they did not march in the parade. Clearly, you "feel" that the mere existence of criticsm of the state of Israel in the public sphere is "unwelcoming". That is your perogative. Nevertheless, Pride Toronto is not obligated to shield you from anything you might find unwelcoming or uncomfortable in the City of Toronto. I can appreciate your perspective, but I am struggling with your sense of overblown privilege. Many LGBT folks felt very unwelcome and uncomfortable when their Mayor snubbed our community and this event....but we roll with the punches. For heaven's sake, some people find nudity and expressions of sexuality "unwelcoming" and "uncomfortable". If this is the standard by which we must conduct ourselves (i.e. your subjective sense of discomfort) then we might as well scrap the entire Pride enterprise.
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 1:22 PM EST
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Know1 - read some law, then talk
I regret that this is my last comment on this in this forum. I do hope that Know1 and others might research the public statements of QUAIA and Pride Toronto in relation to Pride Toronto Co-Chair Francisco Alvarez' pledge to City Council that if QuAIA were present in ANY Pride venue sponsored by the city, that Pride Toronto would ask them to leave. That's the consensus and basis for City Council's funding of Pride Toronto. QUAIA spokesperson Elle Flanders claimed that they were 'honourable' and would honour their promise not to participate in the parade and that they would hold their 'educational' events OFF SITE. Wellesley Street was closed for the parade and festival, and their unlawful use of access to 15 Dundonald to hang a banner potentially endangering public safety at the TTC station below is now under investigation by police, building management, and others. I don't know what to call this behaviour other than 'anarchy'. Pride Toronto cannot control participation in this event, and given QUAIA's determination to disrupt and infiltrate Pride events and adjacent properties for unlawful behaviour, Pride Toronto can no longer claim a right to city funding to create unsafe environments. Like I said, if you support QUAIA you support their right to 'do their own thing' at everyone else's expense, and to break the law. How hypocritical for alleged 'human rights activists' to break the law and beg us to endure them. They are no better than the Black Bloc at the G20, and neither are those who enable this behaviour and the fragmentation and endangerment of our community through a misguided belief that LGBT rights do not imply equal responsibility to uphold the law. If you want to be an LGBT criminal or anarchist, just don't call yourselves lawful or deserving of public support or tax funding. You are an embarrassment to the majority of law abiding queers who want no part of such lawlessness and irresponsibility. Ciao.
Joanne Cohen, Toronto ON
07/04/11 1:32 PM EST
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Joanne...give us a break.
Lawlessness? Seriously? Joanne you are too much. If you support human rights, you should support human rights for all! That includes the human rights of those living in Palestine and support the fundamental right people have to express their opinion. I'm glad QuAIA dropped the banner. They didn't enter the parade but what they did is exciting. Take it back to it's roots! Equality for everyone!!! Isn't that what we all want? It's the world I want to live in. PRIDE is political and a party and many of us queer folks are concerned about the oppression of all people not just the communities we come from. I am tired of people being called anti-Semitic for critising Israel. Not all people who live in Israel are even Jewish and not all Jews agree with the occupation of Palestine or the Israeli government!
Zoe, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 1:35 PM EST
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funny
It's funny to hear Joanne Cohen claim that QuAIA created an environment where people felt unsafe... there was not one, but two pro-Israel tents at Pride (Kulanu and Size Doesn't Matter PR group), Kulanu marched in the parade (QuAIA didn't).... funny for such a 'hostile' environment, there's a lot of pro-Israel groups going on about their business like nothing happened. I think Cohen confuses "opinions I disagree with" for "violent, anarchic hostility." Sorry you can't control every word that comes out of another person's mouth. That must be rough.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/04/11 1:38 PM EST
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You are a lawyer???
Hi Joanne...uhhh perhaps you should re-read some law texts. QuAIA was not a party to PT's agreement with the City, therefore not legally bound by that "Agreement". Secondly, a private building adjacent to a Pride venue is not a Pride venue. PT has no control over that site, nor can there be a reasonable expectation that they would have such control. If the City wishes to hold PT to such a ridiculous standard, then we should insist that the City hold ALL event organizers (which receive public funding) to the same standard. QuAIA then should attend each and every one of those events as well, and have the whole lot of them defunded. Clearly, your animus towards anyone who disagrees the sate of Israel, is compromising your ability to make a cogent argument.
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 1:58 PM EST
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Legal refs for Know! and QUAIA
I'd also invite Know1 and QuAIA's little tenant at 15 Dundonald to read the Criminal Code of Canada re: trespassing, mischief to property and offenses against public safety. Also read the Residential Tenancies Act, because I assure you that every standard tenant agreement like that signed by your little QuAIA rep at 15 Dundonald pledges that the tenant will NOT admit people to the property for the purposes of unlawful behaviour, will not engage in unlawful behaviour on the premises, and will not engage in behaviours endangering the safety and security of the public or disturbing the peace and quiet enjoyment of the premises of fellow tenants. QuAIA's and Pride Toronto's promises are irrelevant - let's wait and see what the property management and police do with this, and let's follow up at City Council to see whether our elected representatives support QUAIA's and Know1's claims to legality. No, I'm not a lawyer, but I've won at the Ontario and BC Courts of Appeal, Supreme Court, and Parliament. That's what out is about - human rights for all queers, especially the safety of the public and Jewish folks at Pride Toronto. You're welcome - we did more for your rights than your friends at QUAIA ever will. Over and out.
Joanne Cohen, Toronto ON
07/04/11 2:12 PM EST
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LOL at the haters
banner drops are awesome!!! thanks QuAIA... and LMAO ant some of the negative comments here. most are probably written by well off homophobes from thornhill. and meir winestein of the jdl blessed us with a few posts. yep.. the same jdl that was protesting outside PT offices calling people "faggotts" and threatening to "stick a knife up our asses" this debate is really a no brainer... on the one side we have solid, long time activists and human rights experts saying that israel is an apartheid state and should be sanctioned, and on the other hand we have racists, homophobes, and ultra-conservatives saying that criticising israel is "hate speech" and trying to shut down the debate. i know which side i'm on.
Patty, toronto ON
07/04/11 2:21 PM EST
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Ms. Cohen prone to hyperbole
Joanne...while we are on the subject of your penchant for labelling all who disagree with you on anything pertaining to the state of Israel, let me point out that the definition of an "anarchist" is not someone who merely breaks a law. As a lawyer, you should know that just because one breaks a law, it does not mean that they are an anarchist. Would you label a parking violator an "anarchist"? Would you label an environmental activist who trespasses onto a private logging site an "anarchist"? The defining characteristic of an anarchist is not merely an individual who breaks a law, but is an individual with a philisophical beleif that violence to overturn all social and government institutions is warranted, and that no other system of order or governance should replace it. When you use hyperbole, you discredit yourself, and you cheapen the real meaning of words. Seems you have become accustomed to this tactic of late. For example, those who criticize Israel "spew hate", those who belong to QuAIA are "Anti-Semetic", and those who protest at or around Pride are "anarchists". Seriously, do yourself a favour, take a deep breath and try to think clearly.
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 2:22 PM EST
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My faith is restored
Hi Joanne...learning that you are not a lawyer restores my faith in the Law Society of Upper Canada and the Bar. No one is suggesting that legal consequences ought not to accrue to QuAIA as a result of their protest action. I am sure they have thought the matter through and are prepared to accept the consequences - as many committed activists often do. In fact, they have probably thought this matter through much more carefully than you have thought through your own claims on this site. Now - other than threatening any who dare to question or criticize Israel and its supporters - do you have anything to cogent add?
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 3:01 PM EST
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she's back and she's anti-anarchist!
Joanne, yes funny eh, my name is Tina. I am sorry that the break and your doctor recommended time away from all this did no good. Watch out for flying banners and the anarchists girl. At the end of the day you're the most hilarious person I know! Keep it up! Oh how we have missed you!
tina, toronto ON
07/04/11 3:19 PM EST
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credibility re: creepy Mammoliti
Further Joanne, you know you might have more credibility in these affairs if you weren't relying on support from homophobes like Councilor Mammoliti... you realize that even queer women who don't care much about this issue were creeped out by him prowling around the Dyke march, looking for any sign of "Israeli apartheid" messaging. Gross!! It's like some gay-hating dude who checks out lesbians on the street or something... ugh... why do you work these people, seriously??
Sav., Toronto ON
07/04/11 3:20 PM EST
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wait a minute
Wasn't it the term Israeli apartheid that we were told was so offensive to people like Joanne Cohen and the others who think like she does? Then why does she take such offense when the term Israeli apartheid isn't even used? As I see it, it shows the lie that they were offended over the term Israeli apartheid, but now its become very clear that such people are vehemently opposed to "allowing" any Canadian from expressing support for Palestinians at all, even against showing support for queer Palestinians at Pride events. It never was about the term Israeli apartheid but about expressing support for Palestinians in their struggles for statehood and against the abuses heaped upon Palestinians by the Israeli authorities and settlers. Yes yes I know, most Islamic majority countries treat LGBTQ people worse than Israel does, but how does that justify Israel's violation of the human rights of Palestinians? Israel is a democracy, the simple fact is that people expect much more from democracies than from theocracies or despots/dictatorships. As well the sort of action such as BDS has a chance of influencing a so-called democratic state while such tactics would have next to zero impact against theocracies/despots/dictators. Besides which Israel is an ally of Canada as Harper has gone to great lengths to show, and as such their conduct reflects on us as country to some degree, way more than the conduct of countries such as Iran for example. So its perfectly fitting for citizens of an ally country to take issue with the conduct of an allied country, especially when it abuses the human rights of a people under its control but whom have no rights and a separate set of laws for them. As well neither QuAIA nor any other Palestinian supporting LGBTQ group has ever preached violence against or even hatred for Israelis, just their policies as they affect Palestinians. The notion that such groups are anti-semitic is plainly ridiculous especially when so many members are Jewi
Rich, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 4:53 PM EST
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Honestly??
Everyday this website has a QuAIA or anti-Israel realated article. When did this rag become a propaganda tool for Israel and Jew hatred??
Donald, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 5:21 PM EST
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Rich
I was at the dyke march, and the parade and all queer Pro Palestinian groups marching were letting it be known by either chants or in the case of some women holding or wearing the signage “Queers against Israeli apartheid”. You can use a variety of language with the same hateful message against Israel, however not with my tax paying dollars.
Jamie, Toronto ON
07/04/11 5:23 PM EST
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@ Jamie
Hi Jamie...I believe the Dyke march contained no references to "QuAIA" as you claim, however, there was at least one individual with a clothing message that read "Dyke Against Israeli Apartheid, Its a Fringe Issue". Unfortunately, PT cannot control every utterance of criticsm of Israel in a large crowd. I note that when the pro-Israel lobby attempted to censor any messaging around "Israeli Apartheid", they predictably amplified that message. That is why censorship is such a poor response to one's critics, and that is why censorship should never have been attempted. I might also add that the phrase "Israeli Apartheid" is not hate speech as determined by numerous legal opinions, including that of the City Manager. I also note that many prominent human rights advocates (inside and outside of Israel) have also used this phrase to describe Israel's treatment of the Palestinians (including Bishop Desmond Tutu from South Africa). For the life of me, disagree with the phrase all you like, but please refrain from the hyperbole. It is not hate speech. Save that label for the real hate mongers like Imam Bilal Philips.
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 6:01 PM EST
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Know1 - are you PT, QUAIA or CAP?
Wouldn't it be swell if No One (Know 1) would come out to one and all as a shill for Pride Toronto, CAP, and QUAIA? Regurgitating the old arguments won't work,especially in the face of a new tighter city anti-discrimination policy and potential legal claims and prosecution vs. the City of Toronto, QuAIA, Pride Toronto etc. Your opinions are less important now and your legitimacy is more fragile and your funding more at risk than ever before, to the detriment of Toronto's economic interests and tourism and the LGBT community. You tried passing the buck to claim this activity is lawful, but in the face of Pride Toronto's promises and FAILURE to govern itself better and prevent rogue groups such as QuAIA in the Dyke March and endangering public safety, it would be best for Know 1, QuAIA and Pride Toronto to see what the latest legal, media, and political developments bring, because I'm sure more savvy Torontonians and queers are not buying your arguments anymore. What's next? Molotov cocktails or pro-Palestinian terrorist rallies or 'protests against the occupation' by illegally occupying public and private property? And where's Rev. Hawkes and Michael Went and City Councillor Wong Tam to try to smooth it all over and keep our dollars flowing? Shame on you. Time will tell, and I suspect QUAIA and Pride Toronto will soon be as financially bankrupt as they evidently are morally. Let's wait and see - can't wait for the next City Council meeting and InterPride's sad report that because Pride Toronto is broke and can't protect equitable access to this event for all (including Jews and Israelis and their friends) because QuAIA insists on crashing our party, World Pride 2014 is no longer going to be in Toronto.
Jayne Urbane, Toronto ON
07/04/11 6:14 PM EST
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Know one when I see one
Hi Jayne...wow...threats, misrepresentations, hyperbole, and unmitigated ranting are a gentle description of your post. Not sure there is anything for me to respond to, except to say that your animus towards any who criticize Israel clearly fuels your desire to make the LGBT community pay for having the gall to question our betters. Have you ever been a supporter of the LGBTQ community, or are you just jumping on this issue as a convenient cover to vent your hate?
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 6:28 PM EST
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hmm, writing styles very similar
Joanne is Jayne you or your girlfriend? the writing style is so similar. Both letters scream, scream, scream you. Again, welcome back. We've missed you and your hilarious ways like you don't know...jayne/joanne/jayanne! capisce (no h in italian Jayanne Urcoban!) xt
Tina, toronto ON
07/04/11 7:48 PM EST
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re: Jayne Urbane
Kulanu and other Israeli supporters, judging by them carrying the Israeli flag, marched in and participated in Pride with no problems, as well as at the Church St and area community fair. I fail to see how they were denied "equitable access" because some people at the Dyke March and QuAIA's banner drop may have contained messages that they disagreed with. I disagree with the witch hunt by Mamolitti and the attacks by others on those expressing their support for Palestinian queers and Palestinians in general, how is that not infringing on my and others "equitable access" if the much less vile and hateful messaging in support of Palestinians is considered to be violating the "equitable access" of Israeli supporters? There simply is no comparison, just read these comments, among others, there is much more hatred directed against Palestinian supporters than the Palestinian supporters, of whatever group, has ever directed towards Israel. If the presence of criticism of Israeli policy denies "equitable access" for supporters of Israel then surely all the Israeli flags present at Pride and all the messaging in support of Israel denies "equitable access" for Palestinian Canadians and their supporters. If you really want to go down this road then the concept of equal treatment would demand that Israeli flags and messaging in support of Israel also not be present at Pride to protect the "equitable access" of others who don't support Israel's actions or have been the victims of Israel's actions. The only just solution is free speech for all, short of hate speech that advocates violence against any particular group. Just because you hate a message does not make it hate speech either. Remember there are two sides, or more, to every conflict, in a democratic free country like Canada you don't get to decide what others opinions will be, no matter how hard people like Jayne and Joanne try do just that by trying to make sho
Rich, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 8:49 PM EST
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re: Jayne Urbane cont'd
...no matter how hard people like Jayne and Joanne try do just that by trying to make showing support for Palestinians punishable by city hall.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
07/04/11 8:52 PM EST
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Rich
Who said anything about “equitable access?” No one is saying queers shouldn't March for Palestinian rights. By criticizing you are pointing a finger at Jewish people everywhere as world wide people equate the State of Israel with being Jewish. Whether that is right or wrong, it makes no difference because it is true. When people hear criticisms where Pro Palestinian Queers call Israel a Terrorist State, you indirectly foster Anti Semitism. It creates climate stereo-types of Jewish people that don’t believe the way you do.
Jamie, Toronto ON
07/04/11 9:40 PM EST
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Racist zionists
What a circular argument. Criticism against israelie occupation is considered by the right wing Zionists to be anti-jewish because Zionists want to have a state based purely on one’s being Jewish or not. This is racist in and out of itself, Israel is not the same as Jewish. Chinese is not the same as China. I am Chinese and I welcome all and any legitimate critism against the Chinese government, in fact, I am downright opposed to the Chinese government and its treatment of Tibetans , that doesn’t make me any less Chinese or any more self hating. Whats truly alarming is the extraordinary lengths Zionists would go in order to increase their illegal settlements and gain more power and land at all costs. This is what is truly offensive.
Casey, Toronto Toronto
07/04/11 11:38 PM EST
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A little logic please
Jaime...surely we can all agree that criticizing a state is an acceptable form of expression? One may be critical of a policy of the Obama administration and still not be anti-American or unpatriotic? Surely the same is true for Israel - despite the fact that some folks (albeit weak minded) may confuse criticism of Israel with all of the citizens of Israel? In fact, Jews within Israel routinely criticize Israel and sometimes call it "apartheid" wrt Palestinians. Do you acknowledge at least that much? I understand that some Anti-Semetic people sometimes hurl invective at the Jewish people indirectly via criticsm of Israel, but not all critics of Israel are necessarily Anti-Semetic. No state should be above criticism, not the US, not Canada, not Saudi Arabia, not Moldova, and not Israel...not any of them.
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 1:06 AM EST
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know1
Yes, I can admit no state policy is likely without critics. However, I have heard, and seen written on facebook Queers that are Pro Palestinian referring to Israel as a Terrorist state. I doubt critics of their own Government as you assert would say the same for instance's about the U.S and foster unpatriotic sentiment. Again, Israel is in a unique position where being Jewish is equated with the State. The association is strong people all over the world make the assumption that Jewish people support the existence of Israel. So that assumption is the association that fosters hatred and stereo types when the Israeli Government was voted in by the Majority of Jewish people living there. This is common sense, QuAiA Jewish supporters are a minority, as are the Jewish critics in Israel. You can critique, but be sensitive to calling a Jewish Government in Israel terrorists. It fosters anti Semitism.
Jamie, Toronto ON
07/05/11 8:19 AM EST
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less commercialism and money from city an option?
I don't think this banner dropped on Wellesely Street during the dyke march in any way diminishes the Pride celebrations. After all it is just one banner not even in the parade and not sanctioned by anyone as far as I can see. And pro Israeli groups proudly marched on Pride Day as well as anit-Iranian government groups. And a small group of dykes and trans for the Palestinian people marched with signs in the dyke parade. Big deal. But the point is why should the city (or Pride Toronto for that matter) be trying to account for every sign and T shirt allowed at Pride marches at all? It is seems to be all about the city funding and the burden that carries with it. One wonders why as CAP member Nicki Ward says PT grovels for the money and services from the city--After all Pride would be fine (maybe even much better!!)without one cent from the city as it used to be. And there is no getting away from the commercial tie-in money (I wore a "TD volunteer" green T shirt and had a "Bud Light" written arose my PT Id card strap....It's a combo now of city, provincial and company monies--but do we need it all and for what? Of course it is our own taxpayer's money goiing to fund a festical which brings in big bucks for the city in tourism but why depend on it as a lifeline PT co-Chair Alavarez says they do? Isn't it rather a too many strings attached mixed blessing that PT should cease being so cravenly dependent on? Perhaps the time has come that we should try and get off the city money and services "fix" and get Ford and Mamolliti and their cronies out of our Pride celebrations altogether?
james dubro, toronto ontario
07/05/11 8:58 AM EST
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No state policy without critics
Hi Jamie...I asked whether or not criticism of state policies are a valid form of expression. Your answer skirts my question. Of course, every state policy has critics somewhere...that is not my point. What makes state criticsm valid or less valid is not how many folks make the critiscm, or even if the criticsm offends a majority, rather what makes it valid is whether or not the evidence marshalled in support of it matches reality. I do not agree with everything Pro-Palestinian and Pro-Israeli supporters assert, however, I believe they have the right to make their case in the public square. Blindly labelling all who disagree with Israel's treatment of Palestinians as "haters" and "Anti-Semetic", and attempting to censor all protest is undemocratic and dangerous. The hallmark of an open, tolerant and free society is allowing all points of view (provided they are not true hate speech) to be voiced and debated - even if one finds those points of view distasteful. Trust me - I know it is not easy to hear criticsm - especially when you believe it is unfounded, or wrong. Our response should be to counter it with better arguments - not vitriol, hyperbole and slander.
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 9:20 AM EST
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Coach's Corner
Dear Gang.... Having a great time at cottage. Lots to do! Very peaceful and lake is tranquil. Mother and I especially enjoyed watching the sunrise from our new two-seater outhouse this morning. Doug built it himself. Now the sewage doesn't leak into the lake!! See you back in town Wednesday. Busy times.
Rob Ford, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 9:21 AM EST
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obviously
James, you apparently have never felt the sting of a Jewish stereo type, or anti semetisim here in Canada, I have.
Hannah, Toronto ON
07/05/11 9:31 AM EST
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Stop the Hysteria
Vindication! Finally cooler heads have prevailed. Irwin Cotler, Cdn MP, co-founder of the Inter-Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism and former Cdn justice minister finally admits and explains that not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic, not even, wait for it..."criticism of Israel as an Apartheid State" (come get me Mammo!) http://tinyurl.com/3foxq3a So stop all your nonsense, stop the hysteria and the claims that because Israel is progressive on LGBT rights that it doesn't use this record to pinkwash the rest of its very real human rights abuses. Jim, Joanne, Hannah, Meir, Sue Ann, Donald, Jaimie etc., this is both an internal Jewish debate and an external larger one that needs to be had. Many of us care passionately about what happens in Israel and Palestine and have been working in the movement as queers for many years. Yes indeed many countries need to be taken to task for their abominable records on gay rights and other human rights abuses. Many of us do that work too. It doesn't mean we have to condemn "Islam" wholesale as many of you suggest (when you speak about the "muslim/arab world" in such gross generic and ignorant terms that your bigotry hangs out..no, not all of you, but many). But that doesn't preclude us from critiquing what is happening in Israel, for some of us because we are Jewish and we actually care what is happening rather than turning a blind eye and embracing the country wholesale. For those of you who claim to "love Israel", then fix it! You are not helping by spouting right wing rhetoric all in the name of protecting yourselves and (supposedly) Israel from criticism. (except you Meir, as the head of the JDL, well, you will do what you will do. and its not pretty. Joanne doesn't it worry you that you and Meir have the same line?!) Read the Cotler article. He's been slaying antisemitism for years and makes the same argument I do: If you call everything antisemitic, it loses its meaning
elle flanders, toronto on
07/05/11 10:10 AM EST
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TO: Hannah, Toronto ON
Oh Puulllleeez seriously, get over yourself. As a member of two minorities who is experiencing and has experienced on-going Genocide, you're ridiculous comment makes me want to puke......Get over yourself already and put things in fucking context will ya.....You simply prove my point that we're living in a world of "victimized" dullards while skipping rapidly with heads up our asses and wearing blinders into the new Dark Ages.
Chukwunonso, Toronto ON
07/05/11 11:00 AM EST
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Hannah, Toronto ON
OBVIOUSLY Hannah you do not know James Dubro. Apparently you also have stopped taking your meds and are totally unaware of your own deficiencies. I have a soft spot for the mentally challenged in my heart, so thank you for visiting and sharing your opinion.
tim, toronto on
07/05/11 11:11 AM EST
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Elle
I take offence to you calling me a bigot, or right wing. Human rights abuses go both ways in Israel. The point we agree on is you saying that this is both an external, and internal debate that needs to happen. That being said, you completely negate, and deny that anti Semitism could, and is fostered by the criticism of Israel in relation to it being called The Jewish State around the world. The association is huge in peoples mind. Your work needs to go far beyond then Jews that agree with your position. Start teaching at the same time that anti Semitism is alive, and well in Toronto, and throughout Canada. There is great evidence of desecrated Jewish cemeteries in Toronto, and vandalized synagogues. Elle, you may not condone harsh language or this kind of behaviour by some, but you do suggest it is a consequence Jews who support Israel’s existence as a Jewish State. No matter how you put a spin on it, you were born Jewish and ultimately neither being Jewish nor being queer will be acceptable without fear in the majority of the world.
Hannah, Toronto ON
07/05/11 11:12 AM EST
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THE REAL ISSUE "ELLE FLANDERS"..
Is not semantics about whether Israel is OR is not an "apartheid" state (it's not by the way)... The real issue is that NO SANE TAXPAYER wants to contribute to a parade that has been high-jacked by left-wing loonies (regardless of their message). QuAIA can say whatever they want about Israel.. I DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR IT. Let's hope sane heads prevail and the funding is pulled.
Frank, Toronto ONTARIO
07/05/11 11:34 AM EST
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@ Frank You say left, I say right
The issue is that one small man named Martin Gladstone was offended by the presence of a group whose politics he did not agree with. He went and lobbied city council, Cdn MP's and other members of the Jewish community. Pride was never hijacked by anyone other than those who chose to have QuAIA thrown out of Pride. Even Bernie Farber of the CJC admits that making such a fuss about QuAIA made this explode in the media and elsewhere. If you and others simply left it alone, let QuAIA have their say like anyone else, then there would be no issue. I could as easily claim that Pride has been hijacked by corporations and right wing queers who want to rest their asses on the laurels of those who fought for their rights. Your taxpaying dollars come back at you tenfold through the money generated by Pride as in over $100,000,000 to the $126,000. Even you can count that high, or low.
elle flanders, toronto ON
07/05/11 12:15 PM EST
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@ Elle
It does not matter what Martin Gladstone, Bernie Farber, Tim Mccaskell or you think about Israel - no one wants our public tax dollars going to a parade that HAS BEEN HIGH-JACKED by CUPE, Unions, left-wing pinko's and other politically affiliated groups. Get the money from the gay community, sponsors and other private donors.
Frank, Toronto ONTARIO
07/05/11 12:26 PM EST
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As a taypayer, I also dont want to pay
I also dont want to pay the prices for having tax exemption from our churches. I dont agree with what the churches are teaching to their participants. I also dont want to pay for government subsidy of the cancer -killing abestos industry. I also dont want to pay for the royal visit , i believe the monarchy is racist and hurtful to me and my ancestors. And by the way, as a taxpayer, I also dont want to pay for the occupation in Libya, its against my moral belief. So is anyone with me?
Casey, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 12:26 PM EST
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Casey, Casey, Casey...
Go to Disneyland. You'll be happier there.
Anan Jibran, Tor Ont
07/05/11 12:37 PM EST
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Casey - you're obviously not a 'taxpayer'...
Besides the fact that you cannot spell 'taxpayer' correctly, you fail to realize that your 'moral beliefs' are taken into account when you vote in either the municipal, provincial or federal elections. Just because you do not like the outcome does not mean you are not required to abide by Canadian law (which the left often think they are exempt from).
Helmut Van Roestel, North York Ontario
07/05/11 12:47 PM EST
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Ha! Casey!!!!!!!! You make me laugh
Join all the other left wing commie pinko queers who don't want to pay their taxes!
Greg Hines, Etobicoke ON
07/05/11 12:53 PM EST
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Speaking of law
Speaking of abiding the law, the city of Toronto has found that the term Israeli Aparthied does not violate our anti-discriminatory policy.So I suggest you take your rage and try to pass an amendment to put israelie apartheid as a legally racist term or asked the Supreme Court to decide your rage. Otherwise, you should shut your trap, because simply being offended is not good enough a reason to pull funding from Pride. Many homophobes also found the sight of 2 men kissing or a topless woman offensive, we and I mean queers don’t give a fuck if you are offended. We do not live in Israel. I nor anyone else have to censor ourselves on ANY of our views in order to make you feel comfortable. If you have a problem with us, call a freaking lawyer.
Casey, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 12:59 PM EST
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@ Casey - OMG! You are missing the point
It has nothing do with the term "Israeli Apartheid" - You douches can say that as much as you want. The taxpayers don't want to contribute to it or support it.
Greg Hines, Etobicoke ON
07/05/11 1:03 PM EST
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By the way
One more note, as queers, our don’t give a fuck attitude also extend to tolerance for others. If you want to raise your israelie flag at pride, so be it. I will tolerate you. Or if you are like the man who has been holding a banner condemning homosexuality as a sin , and I’ve seen him many time standing alone at pride parade showcasing his view, that’s fine too. I do not agree with him, but pride is an event where we can express our beliefs and live freely and openly. The infiltration of right wing bigots and the more privileged queers have contaminated our pride and try to put a restriction on what we can or cannot do, that is one reason I do not attend pride anymore. Our pride is ours, not the city. Personally speaking, I couldn’t give a rat ass if the city doesn’t fund the parade. Pride has become too corporate, right wing and is losing its meaning. I dont expect any of your Sarah Palin Harper fans , or US republican types , Sun For news groupies to understand any of this. But thats my 2 cents. You can suck my non existence dick.
Casey, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 1:07 PM EST
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QuAIA hysteria is perplexing, get some perspectiv
Ah, here are elle and Sav. - don't suppose they wasted a moment weighing in on the Islamic gay and Jew-hating conference taking place here. I don't like QuAIA, but I believe they have a right to make their point, and I don't believe that criticism of Israel is NECESSARILY anti-Semitic, but this fetish with Israel while Islamo-fascist state continue to persecute us without a peep from the QuAIA people make me very suspicious of them. The Palestinians have a raw deal - but so do many people on this earth. I can only come to the conclusion that they hate the Israeli state and want it dismantled. And that provides great cover for anti-Semites. How about criticizing Israel from a place of integrity, with some global perspective? The Palestinians aren't the innocent victims you would like to believe. Look up Samir Quntar, the Palestinian hero and child-murderer.
Nadine Oberman, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 1:11 PM EST
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Casey's race/class hatred is showing
Casey, the QuAIA contingent are among the MOST privileged of queers, lawyers and academics. Your attempt to turn this into an issue of class and privilege is hysterical and non-sensical. Non-elites brought us Rob Ford. Nice work there, Casey, bashing the "white elites" you are so fixated on. They aren't the main problem any more. "White elites" opposed Rob Ford - he's their worst nightmare! The influx of social conservatives - esp. from more traditional cultures in Asia and Africa - in the last twenty years is our biggest challenge and is buoying up the conservative movement. You need to educate yourself; your reactionary anti-elite and anti-white fixation makes you a real asshole on a soapbox, blind to other problems. That master narrative no longer works, buddy boy. You're another one, along with Sav. and company, who ignore the Islamo-fascists in our midst in your hunt for the "privileged" white man you blame for everything. Tired, tired, tired.
Nadine Oberman, Toronto ON
07/05/11 1:21 PM EST
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Elites
The whole discussion of turning residents of this city simply into “taxpayer” should already forewarned us that this is not just about QAIA, this is about imposing a right wing agenda, full of conservative rhetoric, Sarah Palin and Rob Ford rallying cry on our pride parade. we are in for a tough few years . As for Rob Ford being supported by the non elites? You mean , Rob Ford , the millionaire born with a silver spoon? Is he a common man like George W Bush too? Maybe hes the guy I want to sit around and having a beer or two. He understands the struggle of a common man , surely.lol And btw, Not a boy. and not your buddy. Isnt it time for your to watch Sun news?
Casey, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 1:30 PM EST
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violation of city anti-discrimination code
Keep in mind too that discriminating against someone or a group because of their political beliefs is a violation of our city's anti-discrimination code, using the term Israeli apartheid or criticizing Israeli policy is not. If city council decides to go ahead and deny Pride its funding this year because of the political beliefs of a group that joined in the Dyke March this year they will be in violation of the city's anti-discrimination code. I don't know what will happen if they do so but they will be opening city council to potential lawsuits at the very least. Our tax money goes to support many whose views I don't agree with either, such as providing services for churches that don't pay taxes yet preach that LGBTQ people are inferior sinners and the funding of the Catholic school system which we have seen vilate the rights of its LGBTQ students and teach also that LGBTQ people are inferior sinners, "intrinsically disordered" and a "perversion of nature", plus many other groups or organization that receive tax payer funding yet teach/preach or practice discrimination against LGBTQ people. if our tax money is good enough for those fighting against LGBTQ people then surely its good enough for a massive event like Pride where only a tiny percentage of participants even criticized Israeli policy in the first place. if Pride funding is pulled because of the political opinions of a few them surely we should also be pulling our tax money from groups and organizations that preach/teach or practice activities opposed to LGBTQ people as well.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 2:29 PM EST
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Jeswish Defence League (GAYS are NAZI'S)
(from The Schmooze) By Michael Kaminer........................... "Extremism makes strange bedfellows. The Jewish Defense League is trying to rally Toronto Jews to protest against the city’s Pride parade committee by comparing gay people… to Nazis..............................Yep I think we're done here, thanks for visiting.
tim, toronto on
07/05/11 3:01 PM EST
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@Hannah and other Jewish Victims
Hannah, not sure I understand your post so I'm just going to take a stab at it. First however, I did include the caveat for those of you who feel that you aren't bigots calling every Muslim an Islamofascist, so feel free to locate yourself where you see fit). Jonathan Kay in his article in the National Post some moths ago revealed that the B'nai Brith has been fudging numbers and that there is NO RISE IN ANTISEMITISM IN CANADA. And he's not exactly on the left, ole J Kay. But nevertheless to address your concerns, to live in a world in which you are the greatest victim is a terrible place. I remember when I was growing up in Israel we had a very different outlook and that was one of social good, ethics, and strength. Now granted this was all being done against the backdrop of an Occupation and increasing aggression, but there were still different values then that of the victim. That came to be under PM Menachem Begin and his insistence that the Holocaust define us as Jews from beginning to end. Until then, the work had been to overcome the Holocaust, not to forget but not to be defined by it. I can sadly say that is no longer part of our enforced experience in the world as Jews. The holocaust and we as the 'lone Jew fighting enemies all around' is the rhetoric of the day. I can't tell you how many Jews I have met recently, who have told me they are 'afraid.' And I believe many are, but is the fear based on real incidences of antisemitism or fear as in perceived hatred and paranoia fed by new/old Jewish thinking? Ethics/justice (not only for myself but for others) form the backbone of my identity, some of which I learned as a Jewish child, some as a lesbian activist and much as a feminist. If that is left-wing hijacking so be it, I can live with it. I can't live with bigots, corporate greed and a community that has lost its centre. It's time for another kind of Jew and another kind of Gay again, not one mired in victimhood or conservative ideology bashing the rest.
elle flanders, toronto ON
07/05/11 3:13 PM EST
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Say good-by to Pride
Well folks. Looks like because of a few trouble makers we are going to loose our funding for Pride. If city hall thinks that QAIA are bad, wait until they see what happens when you make the Gay community angry. Stonewall anyone?
Proud88, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 3:22 PM EST
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Take the funding away
Pride draws in a million people for the parade. If Pride Toronto cannot use that number of people to raise the measley sum they receive from the city, then they are inept.
Mike, Toronto ON
07/05/11 3:37 PM EST
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elle
Elle, Thanks for your response. I believe you feel you are fighting for the rights of victims being the Palestinians, and black people are still fighting discrimination and prejudices because of centuries of oppression. You are singlingling out the history of victimization of the Jewish race, and suggesting unlike the long oppression of Blacks, and Palestians the Jews are more priviledged, not streotyped etc,etc. Because you know some priveledged Jews do not assume we all are, and further to not assume that the 20th century murders of millions of Jews, under 80 years ago, frees them from victims prejudice. You have selectively chosen which group of people have a right to suffer the after effects of oppression.
Hannah, Toronto ON
07/05/11 4:27 PM EST
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Step 2
The recent Ford/Mammoliti-lead surge in anti-gay sentiment in Toronto isn't going to be appropriately dealt with when everybody is so consumed with this stupid Pride-QuAIA conflict. The homophobes have taken a divisive issue within our community and used it to attack each one of us. I never was a fan of QuAIA, their spokepeople, their chants, or their tactics, but I will defend them against the likes of Giorgio Mammoliti any day because I will not sit back and watch Pride Week die because of a few bored idiots at City Hall and the trolls who support them. It's time for all decent LGBT Torontonians to act, now, and address this new wave of homophobia in our midst. Bankrupting Pride would be a symbolic win for Ford Nation, and we'll all be powerless in that scenario if we're at war with eachother.
Ryan, Toronto ON
07/05/11 4:55 PM EST
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Joanne Cohen is misinformed - Pt 1
To clarify an ill-informed point made by Joanne Cohen in the Xtra! interview above: Queer Ontario did ~not~ march in the Dyke March this past Saturday. As is the case every year, our many esteemed dyke and trans-identified members made previous arrangements to march alone or with other women or trans groups, independent of Queer Ontario (which we wholeheartedly support!). Ultimately, this left us with a non-marching cheering contingent of largely male-identified supporters who, year after year, have cheered the marchers on from the corner of Yonge and Wellesley. Recognizing our status as an allied group within an all-women’s space, we deliberately refrained from making any political statements during our cheering session so as not to steal the spotlight away from the marchers; although it should be noted that we ~did~ display a message of support to all the marchers this year, which read, “WE’RE HERE FOR YOU!”. This was the total extent of our 'political' messaging, which, unfortunately for Cohen, makes her accusations grossly inaccurate.
Queerr Ontario Steering Committee, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 6:02 PM EST
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Right on Ryan
I agree with you Ryan. This whole tempest in a tea cup is just an excuse for the "Ford Nation" to attack the LGBTQ community. The Ford Nation should take note that Pride already is a public/private partnership that delivers real financial and cultural benefits to the City. The Pride festival generates Over $130 million in business revenues and over $16 million in taxes to the City. Why should the City not pay a small price in return for the huge benefits it receives via increased business revenues and taxes? Businesses and individuals are already doing their part to support Pride - so too should Toronto. Quite frankly, the Queer community enhances the distinctiveness and prestige of Toronto around the world. I find it very illuminating that the right wing always has money to fund war, prisons, police, and tax cuts to corporations and the wealthy, but hasn't got a dime for social programs, culture, transit and anything that makes a city a great place to live, work and play in.
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 6:03 PM EST
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Joanne Cohen is misinformed -- Pt 2
Having said that, we in no way condemn the phrases that were (allegedly) made during the Dyke March, nor do we support the attempts that are being made by Pride Toronto and the Ford Administration to deny queer individuals the right to express these otherwise legitimate views at the Pride Festival and elsewhere. This includes Pride Toronto’s requirement that all marching groups provide a sample of their messaging so that it can be reviewed and approved by Pride Toronto staff (See Section 7 of this year's Parade Terms and Conditions), and the Ford Administration’s threat to cut Pride Toronto's funding if such messaging appears in the festival –- or anywhere near it. We are pressed to remind everyone that this freedom to express so-called 'controversial' views and change public opinion is one of the beauties of the Canadian political economy, and that it is one of the harbingers of social change both nationally and around the world. So all the power to those individuals who expressed their views in these increasingly censorial times! (That is, if individuals did, in fact, do so). We call on Joanne Cohen, then, to retract or redress her statement with Xtra! regarding Queer Ontario. Not for our sake, mind you, but for the sake of her own credibility.
Queer Ontario Steering Committee, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 6:09 PM EST
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endless blither and bullshit
Mike from way up thread. Your comment is so right. Cut all govt. funding and cut all corporate funding. Make it all volunteer and get permits to allow for any by-law junk to be covered. Forget the city announcements and anything else -- just do it. But no one will hear your comment or mine because dealing with real matters is boring compared to an ongoing soap opera of the same characters flaming back and forth with jejune melodrama.
good idea lost, Toronto ON
07/05/11 6:16 PM EST
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A clarification
First, apologies to Queer Ontario if I misidentified a member of the dyke march in close proximity to their banners who was not identified but who was clearly chanting "Down With Prisons, Up With Palestine". I saw them at the tail end of the dyke march before 3 pm near Yonge and Hayden streets, and shouted back at them, "You've just helped Pride lose their funding, you f-ing idiots", using my free speech skills". But, given that Queer Ontario supports QuAIA, well, why not check Councillor Mammoliti's video or have some of your dykes for palestine identify themselves. Also, wow, I either have a stalker or fan in Tina, and thanks for warm welcome, but I regret I don't have time for any more debates of attrition and name calling with you folks, fun as it has been. It would be nice if QUAIA and Xtra and NOW would confirm in their reports that their banner above Wellesley Station was removed by Transglobe staff at 15 Dundonald by 3:30 pm and obviously as Kulanu folks were then being marshalled at Church/Bloor to march at the tail end of the Pride Parade, they would not have been in any position to contest that. Also, sorry Elle, while not all criticism of Israeli politics is anti-semitic Irwin Cotler has clearly said that this disproportionate demonization and inaccurate calling Israel an apartheid state is antisemitism. And, there are about 10,000 to 15,000 LGBT Jews in Toronto, most are not members of Kulanu, and over 200,000 Jews, most of whom support Israel and LGBT equality and who are being victimized by rising hate crimes owing to such discourse in our tax funded festivals, universities, health care etc. Why is the NDP silent on Israel Apartheid when the Liberals and Tories condemn it? Also, why not subject the issue of Pride Toronto tax funding to a public referendum? Read the mainstream press and follow City Hall, because I think you'd lose, and will likely lose your Ontario grant next year.
Joanne Cohen, Toronto ON
07/05/11 9:44 PM EST
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Give Joanne Cohen a break
People should leave Joanne Cohen alone. There are obviously some mental health issues here.
Cooler Head, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 10:16 PM EST
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Threats in every breath she takes
Joanne...hope you have had a chance to visit your dictionary and learn the meaning of "anarchist". Nothing I can write about your remarks here can condemn you better than your own words. Every other sentence a threat...truly remarkable. Are you real or a plant by QuAIA to discredit the Pro-Israel lobby?
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/05/11 10:28 PM EST
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There's no business like Pride/QuAIA TO business
Musical theatre fans, counting and rhythm are everything in politics and music. Ask Mr. Plato. Now, thanks to QuAIA hijacking Pride Toronto (whose mandate as a non-profit organization is to mount a CULTURAL festival not a political Israel bashing fest), Pride has lost many sponsors and attendees, has run a massive deficit, has lost federal grants, is in danger of losing city tax funding, and with a likely Tory Ontario in the fall, perhaps its provincial grant ($400K this year). The Martin Gladstone that Elle loves to bash (and received a legal notice from last year after her libel attempts) brought this issue to the attention of most ordinary Toronto citizens. Cohen is stating facts and likely prognoses, not threats. We already had a referendum on tax funding for Pride Toronto. Rob Ford was elected on a pledge to remove city funding from Pride Toronto if QuAIA was present. His 'quarterback' Mammoliti has only filmed the dyke march for his best friend who couldn't attend, and in ways less offensive than straight men posting dyke tittie pictures online from the Dyke March. Now, winning LGBT rights required winning not only in the courts of law, but courts of public opinion. Your Israel bashing 'free speech' costs money and your sad political theatre and freak show at Pride should be paid for those who support it, and no one else. It's easy in Canada or Israel to be a proud free self respecting and respectable gay or lesbian or trans person without paying for or attending Pride Toronto's QuAIA fest. Also, does "Free Palestine" mean wipe Israel off the map like Iran and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigades think? And, if you want to boycott Israel, whose economy outperforms Canada's, and has a trade surplus with Canada, boycott their Intel chips and turn off your cell phones and computers and don't use their pharmaceutical medications when you are sick and dying. Pay for Pride yourself.
Ethel Merman, Toronto ON
07/06/11 10:11 AM EST
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Joanne Cohen upstanding lawful citizen...or not?!
Joanne, I have refrained from responding to you thus far as it only seems to inflame more hysterical rhetoric but let the record show that the person who made the complaint to the police and harassed the superintendent at 15 Dundonald was, in fact, you, Joanne Cohen. As reported by the super, you charged in there and demanded that the management take down the banner because it was "a criminal act" and "dangerous" and that you were reporting it to the police. You also stated that you were a relative of the TransGlobe Property Manager, Jay Cohen, and that he did NOT agree with the "offensive" message on the banner. Because you were screaming at him and because your last name was also Cohen, he took you at your word. A quick search of Transglobe however, reveals there is no Jay Cohen. Did you 'unlawfully' lie to the Superintendent? That strikes me as very bad behaviour for such a lawful, upstanding citizen. And as to the letter of the law: the bath house protests were 'unlawful', as was stonewall as was Pride not so many moons ago. The banner drop however, was not. But if you want to classify peaceful protest as unlawful and criminal, and you want to sound like a raving tea partyier, go for it. But you've lost a all credibility between your lying and your reporting. It is clear too that you and Martin are charging forward in making sure Pride gets defunded for YOUR agenda. Pride's funding would not be at risk if you and he like dogs with bones, would stop pushing city councillors (like homophobe Mammolitti...great choice for an ally by the way!) to defund Pride. Only you and Martin and your few crew are responsible for this mess. QuAIA has never done anything but march peacefully with a message you don't like. This is about politics. you think Israel is great because it has LGBT rights, I think as someone who grew up there and knows the place, that it has an abominable record in relation to Palestine and international law. Period. that's
elle flanders, toronto ON
07/06/11 11:40 AM EST
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Martin, Ethel, Whoever You Are...
It never ceases to amaze me that all the pro-Israel folk refuse to use their real names (barring Joanne Cohen, good for you). So Ethel, Martin, whoever you are to address some concerns: No, Free Palestine does not mean 'wipe Israel off the map', it means end the Occupation. it means honour agreements and stop building illegal settlements and an illegal wall. It means stopping the siege of Gaza and controlling all entrances and exits and travel from and to Palestine. It means stop using cluster bombs. Martin, Ethel, whoever you are, when I debated you on national TV it was clear how little you actually know of Israel and the situation re Palestine. You talk about Palestine being Hamas and Islamic Jihad blah, blah, but you are unfamiliar with the people, yes, ordinary people who live and work in palestine as well. Just like every Israeli isn't a right wing militant. In fact, many of my friends are Israelis...working to end the Occupation that is. I introduced Martin to a lovely Israeli lesbian at Stonewall. She asked you nicely to back off, that you are not her saviour and that your attempts to speak for her and Israel are detrimental. Timing and counting is indeed everything, so check your facts: Pride didn't lost sponsorship $ last year, they increased. It's in the annual budget report. Attendance and parade also increased this yr and last. Try as you may to ruin Pride, these are facts. The 400k you speak of was actually not lost revenue, it was bad management on Tracy Sandilands part; it was a one time grant Pride received from Heritage Canada the yr prior. The budget was changed to reflect that. But your attempts to have pride defunded are relentless. If it does, it's thanks to Martin G. The legal notice by the way wasn't for bashing you or ethel merman, it was for QuAIA who claimed your propaganda video was a sham. Gladstone, ethel, whoever, threatened to sue us for false claims, we responded with proof, Marty's lawyer never responded. Shall we dance?
elle flanders, toronto ON
07/06/11 12:23 PM EST
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The Elle flanders Show
Welcome to her world, everyone. Yes, it's a lesbian, queer, leftist, Jewish, anti-Jewish, Israeli, anti-Israeli, freak show, but hey we're all a part of it now and there's nothing anyone in the gay community can do about it. Don't care about Israel or the Palestinians? Doesn't matter. Because this issue is bigger than you. Bigger than being gay. Bigger than the entire gay community. Why? Because it's important to Elle. Thanks Elle for sucking the entire gay community into your narcissism and your righteousness issues.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
07/06/11 1:27 PM EST
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Hey Jim! great to see you
Actually Jim, have you ever noticed that I am only ever responding to all the posts here...hence not my initiative. Hey Jim, I know, let's count how many times you've posted your nasty, poisonous rantings compared with mine. Ok? Having said that, this is an issue I'm passionate about cuz I grew up in Israel and it's part of my life. If it's not yours, then stop trolling the pages on xtra about QuAIA. What are your interests Jim? What do you do? Let's see, I'm also interested in queer film, want to talk about some queer movies you liked lately? Who did you march with in Pride this year? I didn't go, I was scared of the JDL. I'm open to lots of chit chat. But if you post here, in articles about QuAIA, expect that will be the discussion. bye Jim!
elle flanders, toronto ON
07/06/11 1:50 PM EST
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Let's test QuAIA's hypocrisy
There's a new group called Queers Against QUAIA (check their blog elsewhere on Xtra.ca on QuAIA's silence at the Muslim gay-bashing hate conference). I hope they march next year at Pride, and I hope they make depositions at City Council and at Pride to try to rescue Pride's funding and talk about what they'll do to get QuAIA out of Pride or at least to honour its own commitments to stay off site or stay legal. As 'freedom to offend' and bully tactics and illegal actions and harassment are now de rigeur for QuAIA in its actions at Wellesley Subway / 15 Dundonald, let's do a thought experiment on free speech and 'silencing'. As Elle says, the personal is political. What if Queers Against QuAIA or pro-Israel groups camped out at Elle Flanders' or Tim McCaskell's house to display their banners, without their consent, preferably with large sandbags overhanging high traffic city sidewalks that could expose Elle or Tim to liability lawsuits if anyone were hurt? First, they'd call the police and have the perpetrators charged with trespassing and mischief to property and anything else they could make stick. Then they'd clean up the crap left by the protestors and try to sue them for damages. If Elle or Tim were owners of an apartment building, and it was a tenant who had done this, as happened at 15 Dundonald, they'd probably try to have them evicted. There would be a public outcry, and Elle and Tim would claim to be victimized, as we all were by QuAIA last Sunday. Then, some from the protestor group would claim falsely that Elle and Tim were unfairly silencing their 'free speech'. Gag me. When you renounce terrorism tactics and bullying and illegal occupation and misuse of public and private property and abide by your own agreements, call us. Not before.
Anonymous for safety, Toronto ON
07/06/11 3:21 PM EST
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More lies from Elle Flanders
Obviously Elle Flanders is desperate here. I am not and have never claimed to be related to Jay Cohen, the property manager at 15 Dundonald. I am related to the owner of the property, Mr. Cohen's superior and the CEO of the property management company. I advised them that as I am related to the CEO, I had reason to believe that they did not have approval to display that banner advocating boycott of Israel, as the company and owner do support Israel. I told them there had been a call to police by the TTC below and that there was concern for public safety and possible mischief to property, trespassing, and liability for the building. I promised in my video interview that I would make city officials aware of these concerns, and would ask that the banner be removed immediately. It was removed by 3:30 pm, witnessed by me and police officers at Church/Wellesley, and anyone else in the vicinity. I was advised by the superintendent on the Monday following that a tenant had claimed to have approval for this display, which could have exposed the building to liability claims, aside from its obvious misuse and breach of any tenant agreement. The management company is handling it now, and apparently was kind enough to return the QuAIA banner to the tenant shortly after removing it. I make no apology for having intervened in this way, and have received kudos and support from police and City Council members, who are rightfully concerned, and who encourage the management company to follow up on this matter through any and all legal channels. How they choose to handle it from here is their business. They have advised the tenant not to hang it again. Should they pursue a criminal or civil prosecution, I have advised them and police I would be pleased to testify as to what I witnessed, did and said. You call it 'silencing' and I call it upholding the law and rightful interests of the owners and public in the vicinity. Obviously, QuAIA miscalculated on this matter.
Joanne Cohen, Toronto ON
07/06/11 3:45 PM EST
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FYI - Kulanu is a Queer Jewish SOCIAL GROUP
And not a pro-Israel campaign. Us queer Jewish folk are allowed to have our group just like everyone else is allowed to have theirs - QuAIA has every right to exist and standing up what they're fighting for, just as a zionist group can do the same. If no one else stands up for international human rights violations with respect to queer people like QuAIA is doing, and many other groups involved in PT, then who will? Not every Jew is a Zionist - hence the Jewish involvement in QuAIA. But you can still be a queer Jew and participate in Kulanu - which should be a safe space for us, but unfortunately so may people "boo'd" us during the Parade forgetting that the Israeli flag is also the Star of David, representing Judaism. That's where it becomes problematic. Let your queer brothers and sisters march and represent - and if you have an issue with it, that's what forums are for ;).
Elle, Toronto Ontario
07/06/11 4:22 PM EST
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public private
Pride is a public event with millions of people attending. Signs are everywhere, hence one could argue in line with Anonymous, that placards could be used as weapons to bash people over the head with. But luckily this is Pride and those kinds of things don't happen. Everyone is peaceful, we carry our signs home like good little children and put them away for the next year. Did anyone get physically injured from placards or banners this year? I'm sure you're on it Anonymous. If no one was, will you lie anyway to make a point? (I notice "joanne c" is very quiet on the accusation of lying..."cousin Jay Cohen", get it folks? "J" Cohen of Transglobe...NOT) As for the "Muslim Gay Bashing hate conference". What did you do about it Anonymous? I was unaware of it but as you seem so up on it, were you there protesting? Let me know more about it and I'll be glad to work with you on these issues. Have you contacted Salaam? That seems to be the best place as their mandate is issues regarding muslim queers. Quaia's mandate is related to Palestine, so not sure it fits, but personally always glad to help out if need be. I'm a free agent. On that religious fag hating note: Did you protest B'nai Brith's Frank Diamant's ongoing connection and support of number one Christian Zionist homophobe Charles McVety? Diamant sits on the board of the Canada Christian College, has an honourary degree from them and supports the views of McVety who not only has a campaign against same sex marriage legislation, but belongs to the same Christian Zionists who fund missions to convert Jews. Have you taken that on Anonymous? Would be glad to help ya there too. No one was 'victimized' last Sunday by a sign that read: Support Palestinian Queers, Boycott Israeli Tourism. If that is "victimization" we're in deep shit. But it does give me insight into your position: any critiq
elle flanders, toronto ON
07/06/11 4:24 PM EST
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Humble Correspondent indeed
I'm just amused at the notion of Joanne Cohen describing herself as 'humble'.
Paul, Toronto ON
07/06/11 4:30 PM EST
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Kulanu says QuAIA should march
Hey "elle" wow, another one and in Kulanu! how cool its that?! QuAIA's stance has NEVER been that Kulanu should not march. I personally wholeheartedly support your right to march. I'm a little sad though, because Kulanu means *all of us* in Hebrew and I would be thrilled if you would accept me into your social group but it says in your mandate, which recently changed, that "the political work in which Kulanu Toronto engages has several main goals: (4) To reaffirm the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish state within defensible borders at peace with its neighbours, and to encourage and support that state as a world and regional leader with respect to LGBT rights and human rights in general." So if I am critical of Israeli state policy and its human rights record, can I join Kulanu? I've never felt welcome despite starting some of the first ever Jewish lesbian efforts in Toronto. Glad to hear you think QuAIA should march elle, that's a first, last year Kulanu was very active in having QuAIA not march and in lobbying the city to defund Pride if they did. So is this a 'turn-around'? If so, can you ask Justine Apple to make that clear? Very cool if so. See Anonymous, Joanne, Jim, Martin, Ethel, etc? civility reins, just not with you.
elle flanders, toronto ON
07/06/11 5:06 PM EST
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Elle - sorry about that brain tumour
Elle Flanders is now purporting to speak for Kulanu, which was quoted in Xtra and many other places. It's a ZIONIST group, kay, funded by UJA Federation and Hillel of Greater Toronto. Most queer Jews are. If they're not, they're probably members of QUAIA. Elle, Joanne Cohen posted above never claiming to have been related to Jay Cohen, property manager at 15 Transglobe, and thank you for demonstrating why so few pro-Israel queers (Jewish and not) post their full names (neither do your Israel bashers) here or even read Xtra or Elle anymore or engage with QuAIA nuts. The lack of civility and the destruction of our community and Pride's funding can largely be attributed to QuAIA's and their friends' bully tactics. Why not interview the pro-gay and pro-Israel folks who marched with Kulanu, clearly you would only accuse them of 'pinkwashing' etc. If you want to deal with Salaam, on Muslim anti-gay hate, go for it, because they hate Israel too.
holy crap, Toronto ON
07/06/11 5:35 PM EST
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Holy Crap. Read before you shout
I am not purporting to speak for Kulanu at all. I was responding to the comment made above titled: "FYI - Kulanu is a Queer Jewish SOCIAL GROUP" the writer of which (another elle it seems) claims that she is a member of Kulanu and feels fine with QuAIA marching. I was a little taken aback and hence asked if this was the a new stance taken on by Kulanu. that is all. You guys get so mean and nasty. Joanne Cohen terrorized a superintendent of a building threatening him that if he didn't take down the sign that she would (and did) report it to the police but more significantly his superior..."her cousin" So who's the bully here exactly? There is no "jay cohen" of transglobe as we have discovered but Cohen now says she is related to the CEO of transglobe. So far I'm still wondering about that one as the CEO is Kelly Hanczyk, strikes me as a Polish name, not Jewish. but hey, you never know. Waiting on confirmation on that one. And what foundation do you have other than racism that Salaam hates Israel?! This is where you folks discredit yourselves. Anything with the word Muslim in it is either an islamofascist, an Israel-basher or a Jewish hate-fest. Grow up, take off your victim mantle and join the rest of the pluralist world. Or stay in your fearful world of walls, fences, racism, suspicion and ignorance, maybe better you shouldn't join. This year the New Israel Fund quoted a report out of an Israeli organization that documented a quadrupling of racist incitement against 'Arabs' in Israel. I'd be curious to see the numbers in the Jewish community. You guys are a shanda. I'm done, bash away at me as you like, you're good at it.
elle flanders, toronto ON
07/06/11 6:20 PM EST
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Elle - call your lawyer
Clearly, Elle Flanders doesn't mind libelling in print and I hope she has deep pockets. Jay Cohen is the Property Manager responsible for 15 Dundonald and works for Transglobe Management, and was on site there investigating this matter on Monday. I spoke to him just now and let him know that you continue to publish false accusations. This is at least the third time. Get a lawyer and therapy. I am not and never have claimed to be related to Jay Cohen. I am related to the owner of the property and the owner of Transglobe Management. In fact, after Elle's irresponsible posts, I contacted the supers again and confirmed with them and they agreed that I never said I was related to Jay Cohen. They know I'm related to the owner. Elle, what's your damage? I know you hate to lose, but you'll lose this one, and you'll continue to lose the more you try to claim that Jay Cohen is not employed by Transglobe just because you can't find him. Now stop.
Joanne Cohen, Toronto ON
07/06/11 9:20 PM EST
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Sue the world Joanne
but it won't change the fact that we can talk openly about Israel's ongoing violations of human rights. (yes, yes, Iran's too, we know, we know) But keep trying to shut us all up with suing and reporting everyone. Can we talk desperate?! so I couldn't find a dude named Jay Cohen and that's libelous? Oy vey, (eyes rolling). But glad to know he exists and I'm sure he's glad to know you're not cousins. You seriously spent time calling people to confirm what you did or didn't say about who you are related to? I don't hate losing (is there something to lose or win here? that's not how I saw it but anyway...) I do hate bullies and you've been bullying Pride and individuals for their positions and non-positions for years. I remember your threatening letters to the board with ongoing legal intimidation. The last bullying incident was this Pride screaming at a superintendent to do your bidding because you personally didn't want a banner waving that disagreed with your politics. I never asked you not to race down the street in an Israeli flag, I never said a word to Kulanu folks for their support of Israel, they're entitled. I've never even criticized your zealous Zionism. I'm just trying to give another view some airtime. You however, work overtime to shut down all conversation by threatening everyone, you'll sue, you'll work to get Pride's funding taken away, and on and on. You are a massive nasty bully Joanne. Get some sleep, you've got lawyers to contact in the morning to sue me and yell some more.
elle flanders, toronto ON
07/06/11 10:34 PM EST
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Legal notice to Elle Flanders/QUAIA
Elle, you'll recall during your tenure on the Pride Board that you bullied me and members of our law office when we refused to provide rabbis for your half-baked human rights panel at Pride. At that time you threatened me with legal action and I advised you to cease and desist from contacting me. I'm going to have to ask you again to please cease and desist from libelling me or members of my family or their businesses, or members of the Jewish community who support Israel as you have done in your posts above. You continued to persist in falsely accusing me despite clarification and clear direction. Now, Transglobe Property Management is a large firm with a legal department that I'm sure would enjoy dealing with you, and I'd invite you and your tenant at 15 Dundonald and anyone else to deal with them directly on your false claims or the QuAIA tenant's false claims of consent to mount your banner on their property, etc. As this is a legal matter, and I didn't see you on site on Sunday and initially thought you smarter than the QuAIA folks I did see, I'll reserve any further comment or testimony to a court of law not a court of idiocy. For the benefit of Transglobe and anyone else who's been harassed by you, would you like those papers delivered to your home, to Graphic Pictures, or does QuAIA have a corporate address (other than yours or Tim McCaskell's residences)?
Joanne Cohen, Toronto ON
07/06/11 11:01 PM EST
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fear and politics
Fear is a very powerful thing and much too often used as a tool to advance certain political causes. Fear is a political tool used by many different political types and organizations, mostly right wing ones though. From using fear of crime to build support for ridiculous and overly heavy handed laws by the Harper Cons to reproduce here in Canada a style of criminal justice that has been shown to be a total and very expensive failure in the US not to mention the immense damage done to people's lives and to communities by politicians beating the fear drum. Apparently its also being used by certain right wing Jewish organizations and political types right here in Toronto too. I recall well people claiming to be afraid of QuAIA, afraid that QuAIA members are out to beat up or otherwise assault Jewish people. I never could understand why they would feel that way until I heard certain right wing Jewish community leaders/political types were telling their constituents and/or members that QuAIA posed a real threat to their personal safety, that QuAIA would unleash a violent wave of anti-semitism across Canada, that QuAIA supports Hamas and other terrorist groups. Yeah I guess I'd be afraid too if someone I trusted were telling me such things but the reality is there is simply no truth to those claims what so ever. QuAIA isn't anti-semitic, never uses hate speech or otherwise promotes violence against Jewish people or anyone else, something that would be obvious to anyone who actually took a look at QuAIA and their members. But fear works as we've seen in many examples from around the world. To me its shameful for political types trying to instill fear into their followers and/or the general public just to sway their opinions on political issues. Anyone who has to resort to instilling fear in their people to support a political view is doing harm to their people as fear damages a persons quality of life. Using fear as a tactic also diminishes their future believability.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
07/06/11 11:11 PM EST
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haha
It's funny to think Tim is renting, and giving rent money to people who may support Israel, and donate to the Jewish state as we know it. Thank you for supporting Israel. Boycott your rent.
anon, Toronto On
07/06/11 11:18 PM EST
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and,
Yes, Kulanu is more then a Jewish social group, they are proud supporters of Israel's right to exist as the Jewish State. While there is liberals, and conservative Kulanu members I can say with certainty, no Israel bashers.
anon, Toronto On
07/06/11 11:31 PM EST
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fear and politics cont'd
We're told by some groups that anti-semitism is spiking here in Canada, more reason to be afraid, however these are also groups that consider criticism of Israeli policies to be anti-semitic so who can believe their numbers? There's people commenting in this forum trying to use fear to silence those who disagree with them yet who make wild accusations about others without any basis in reality. The reality is that LGBTQ people suffer more discriminatory violence than Jewish, or any other religious or ethnic minority people do in this country, that's based on police stats of actual provable crimes and not just criticisms. The comment sections of newspapers get filled up with anti-LGBTQ comments but they don't get counted as hate crimes against LGBTQ people like some consider criticism of Israel to be hate crimes against Jewish people. The reality is that Jewish people face less discrimination in Canada today than ever before, yet some political types would have all of us, and more important for their political interests, Jewish people in particular believe that hate crimes against Jewish people is a growing epidemic in Canada. I have, in the past, wondered why it was that right wing types, including those who are Jewish, seemed more afraid in general than left wingers, including Jewish lefties. After watching the antics of the right wing in Canada though its no surprise, they learned from the US Republicans how powerful a tool fear can be, especially in right wing politics. Its really no surprise to see fear used as a political tool on the local level, convincing people, especially Jewish people that they should be afraid if others are allowed to voice criticism of Israel since that leads to violence against Jews. That belief is utter nonsense and rather sad, especially the way some are using fear to benefit themselves and the right wing in Israel at the expense of those they've made to live in fear of groups like QuAIA and others who are critical of Israel.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
07/06/11 11:36 PM EST
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Rich
Hey Rich, if you are so sure about fear and intimidation coming from Pro Israel's side, why don't you start a GDL, (Gay defense League) and march peacefully in the parade. But, it probably be more like knowing the GLO (Gay Liberation Org).
jamie, Toronto On
07/06/11 11:48 PM EST
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fight fire with fire
I know its not in QuAIA's style to sue people for libel/slander, but personally I would like to see those who call QuAIA a hate group or anti-semitic sued for libel/slander. After all its been threatened to be used against QuAIA for pointing out the lies and misrepresentations in Gladstone's propaganda film. Joanne is again threatening to sue for libel/slander for some reason I'm not at all clear about. I know QuAIA are all for free speech, but I thinks it damages QuAIA's cause to allow certain people and/or organizations to publicly and falsely label them a hate group and anti-semitic when QuAIA is nothing of the sort. However I do realize that some who call QuAIA a hate group are just ignorant of what actual hate groups are like so assume that because they hate QuAIA's message they're a hate group, yeah its true some anti-QuAIA types are very simplistic ignorant people but some know full well there's no truth to those claims yet make them over and over again in an effort to support censorship and/or attack Pride, in some cases its based on pure anti-LGBTQ bigotry, like Mamolitti's antics for example, but for others they're purposefully libeling and slandering QuAIA and its members, as well as their supporters and/or defenders. Why shouldn't they face the same libel and slander lawsuits that they try to use against QuAIA and its members? Actually I would be interested in hearing from Elle Flanders why QuAIA doesn't pursue libel/slander lawsuits against those who call QuAIA an anti-semitic hate group and your members hate mongers. Any reasonable person who has looked at QuAIA knows there's no basis in reality at all for such claims yet they still get made over and over again, I believe in an effort to create fear of those who criticize Israeli policies like I mentioned above.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
07/06/11 11:52 PM EST
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Rich, really?
Rich QuAiA in and of it's self may not be a hate group exactly with the same agenda as say kkk, or the bloc, but the message is an intolarance towards the Israeli goverment for their right to defend themselves. Other Countries and the U.N refer to Israel as being the Jewish state. It is the association to the messaging, calling the Israeli Goverment Terrorists that have the indirect potential to racially profile.
jamie, Toronto On
07/07/11 12:06 AM EST
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LESS STRAIGHT PEOPLE AT PRIDE THIS YEAR
THANKYOU QuAIA. BECAUSE OF YOUR PUGNACIOUS VERVE AND YOUR VOCIFEROUS ENEMIES ALL OVER THE MEDIA, THERE WERE LESS STRAIGHT PEOPLE AT THE PRIDE EVENTS THIS YEAR. YOU FRIGHTENED THEM AWAY. SOMETIMES AN UNCOMFORTABLE EVENT HAS SIDE EFFECTS AND BLESSINGS --SUCH AS LESS STRAIGHT PEOPLE AT THE PRIDE EVENTS. I AM HETEROPHOBIC (PHOBIC MEANS FEARFUL) WE DON'T NEED THEIR FUNDING. WALKING DOWN YONGE ST IS FREE. ALL PERFORMANCES AND EQUIPMENT ETC. SHOULD BE DONATED. PRIDE COULD COST A LOT LESS THAN IT DOES, WITH LESS STRAIGHT PEOPLE INVOLVED AND ATTENDING.
Thankyou-QuAIA, Toronto Ont
07/07/11 2:50 AM EST
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To the poster above
How would you have any clue how many straight people attended this year or last? How is this even relevant to the discussion? You are truly an idiot and a troll.
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/07/11 7:49 AM EST
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@Rich
Rich your posts are so amusing. You and your ilk opened this Pandora's Box and you do your best to leave it open with divisive politics, name-calling, vitriolic and inciteful posting, provocative statements, vaguely anti-semitic comments and actions, and so on. Whenever someone tries to fight back, you start attacking them for using fear politics. There really is no end to this nightmare is there? Is there any way you can be convinced to take this outside? The gay community has enough problems without this mess.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
07/07/11 7:49 AM EST
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ARAB JEWISH BLAH BLAH BLAH
AS SOMEONE WHO HAS LISTENED TO THIS MIDDLE EAST FOOLISHNESS HIS ENTIRE LIFE, I AM SURE ,AS A MATTER OF FACT I KNOW I SPEAK FOR MANY BOTH IN CANADA AND THE GAY COMMUNITY WHEN I TELL EVERY ONE OF YOU TO TAKE THIS ISSUE AND STUFF IT UP YOUR COLLECTIVE BUTTS !!!!!! THAT BEING SAID GAY PRIDE DAY IS A DAY OF CELEBRATION NOT CONFLICT . A DAY TO CELEBRATE AND TALK ABOUT THINGS ACCOMPLISHED AND THINGS THAT NEED DOING. "" IT IS NOT A DAY FOR ISSUES THAT ARE NOT GAY RELATED "" PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION !!! TAKE A HINT JEWS AND ARABS ALIKE. THE COMMUNITY IN GENERAL IS FURIOUS WITH THE LOT OF YOU, DESPITE XTRAS ATTEMPTS TO PAINT IT OTHERWISE !!!!!!!
Gary Woodroffe, Toronto Ontario
07/07/11 8:09 AM EST
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@ Jim
The 19th post into this thread you yourself began by name calling. I believe you wrote: Maladjusted narcissistic rightousness addicts. Everything you accuse Rich and others of, you have enaged in as well. Hypocrisy! The tone of pro-Israel supporters for the most part has been shrill, over the top, threatening, bullying, and impervious to reasonable counter-arguments. I grow weary of this thread, I grow weary of your relentless name calling, labelling and vitriol. I am outa here...
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/07/11 8:20 AM EST
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Accuracy when labeling
Joanne, you have erroneously called me quaia's spokesperson several times. I haven't held that position for almost a year. Furthermore, I was not at Pride this year and I am speaking/writing as an individual, not as a representative of QuAIA. Please be accurate when attacking me and my character. As for where to serve your numerous legal actions, i'm in Palestine working with a queer group on a new film. please send via the Flotilla.
elle flanders, Toronto On
07/07/11 5:26 PM EST
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Here's Elle Apr 2011 as QuAIA spokesperson
Right, so Elle Flanders is doing research from Palestine? No wonder she can't get her facts straight. Here's a report hosting Elle as spokersperson for QUAIA as late as Apr 2011. http://www.eutimes.net/2011/04/israeli-apartheid-group-bows-out-of-pride-parade/
Accuracy for Elle Flanders / QUAIA, toronto ON
07/07/11 9:19 PM EST
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Elle as 'Driving Force for QUAIA' Jul 2011
Um, does anyone read the posts? Cohen told Flanders and QuAIA to contact the property management lawyers if they want to bitch and moan. She's harassed Cohen before but keeps baiting her, and Cohen's already said she's a potential witness in a legal action. It's illegal to intimidate a witness or libel or harass them, but I guess that doesn't matter to Elle. Just a point of geography, does the country of Palestine exist yet? Surely Elle must have lawyers in Toronto for her film company. But anyway, according to Elle's own open post on Rabble as of July she now identifies herself as the 'driving force behind QUAIA' so congrats Elle on your new title. You realize of course that your actions have only embarrassed QUAIA members in Toronto? http://rabble.ca/news/2011/07/attacks-pride-open-letter-toronto-councillors
Elle Get Over Yourself, toronto on
07/07/11 9:58 PM EST
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Straight Talk from the Coach’s Corner
Hi Gang.....Got back to town from Cottage on Wednesday. Roads were good and the Don Valley clear. Mum and Doug are back in Forest Hill if anyone wants to drop by for cake and coffee. I finally got a hold of Chief Bill Blairs personnel file. What a bird that one is. Apparently they found him drunk one night last summer in a dress and peeing on the war memorial at old city Hall. No wonder the G20 thing was such a screw-up. Well it seems Gino Boy scored big last Sunday. He figures he got a picture of every guy at the fairies parade. Any employer can order a copy from my office. It will be two dollars for a VCR tape and free, of course, to the military. Friday Ill be at the Parkdale Legion. I'll be accepting some sort of medal. Dad was right about that when he said you gotta be pretty lonely to join them. Anyhow that’s all for this week. Hope I am sending this to the right account. I get all mixed up on Twitter.
Rob Ford, Toronto Ontario
07/08/11 11:12 AM EST
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Where's Waldo / QuAIA / Flanders?
How lovely to hear from Mayor Ford. Glad you're back safe from the cottage. I'm sure you read that hilarious article in NOW 'expose journalism' with photos of your cottage. Looks like a nice place. Also check the many letters in your support in NOW magazine of all places, bashing the idiot freak show tax waste that is Pride. Why not invite the LGBT Jews and Israelis of Toronto and anyone else victimized by QuAIA to your place next year? G-d knows it not safe for us in Toronto anymore and won't be for World Pride 2014. Speaking of geography, last I heard the 'Flotilla' boat was smashed by the Greek coast guard in Greece, so where is Waldo/QuAiA/Flanders? There's no such country as Palestine, but human rights groups confirm lynchings of gays in Gaza and the West Bank, so why not have Flanders and her Palestinian wife in Ramallah try some gay activism or public nudity (like at Toronto Pride) and see how far they get? Oh, Flanders is also the promoter of Israeli queer Rauda Morcos of Asswipe or Aswat the Palestinian queer Muslim group which also advocates boycotting Israel, as did QuAIA / Pride Marshall / perennial NDP loser El Farouk Khaki of Salaam. Earlier this year, the Mossad (who are advising Canadian intelligence on security against Muslim terrorists) announced they had a new unit just to study radical left nutbars like Elle and their links to the Flotilla and possible pro-Palestinian groups and we can only hope they're following this thread. Meanwhile, where's Waldo? Obviously QuAIA and Pride Toronto have so much to be proud of in Elle Flanders. Not.
Where's Waldo / Quaia / Flanders?, toronto on
07/08/11 6:40 PM EST
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JO JO JO ANNE CO CO COhen
Honey I am neither a fan or stalker. I just remember hearing about you and laughing with others about you because of your ways. Even the Pro-Israel folk were telling me stories of that Crazy Jo. But rest assured Joanne that you've got folks who will rally around you. I only hope that they will take care of you when you finally crack. Be careful darling and retire to Florida early. much love your nonstalker/nonfan, Tina!
tina, Toronto ON
07/08/11 8:04 PM EST
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re: Jim
Jim don't forget that this all started with the launch of a smear campaign against QuAIA. The name calling started when QuAIA was called anti-semitic, a hate group, supporters of terrorism and so on, you and other continue by constantly referring to me and others who stand up for free speech and QuAIA's right to participate in Pride by calling me/us anti-semitic, hate mongers and so on. Besides its not me or other supporters/defenders of QuAIA who constantly bring this issue up in the comments sections of stories having nothing to do with QuAIA or even Pride such as the story about the two Muslim preachers accused of preaching LGBTQ people should be killed. It was anti-QuAIA people such as yourself who made QuAIA an issue in that story and others like it. I do get it, you and your types are upset and frustrated that you can't silence criticism of Israel so you never miss an opportunity to attack those who hold differing views of Israeli policy. You seriously can't expect to attack people, to libel and slander them, without them responding, and calling people like me anti-semitic or QuAIA a hate group is slander and so will be responded to. I have never started any attack or comment against anyone but have only ever responded to those who attack and slander those who are critical of Israeli policy. You want this all to end? All you have to do is stop attacking people like me for not sharing your opinions and get the rest of the anti-QuAIA types to stop attacking and it will stop. But make no mistake, I will defend myself and others who share my opinions as long as people like you continue to attack. The irony is if the smear campaign had never been launched against QuAIA then QuAIA would still be a small group few had heard of or cared about, but the attacks by people like you greatly amplified their message and got people like me who used to ignore this issue politicized and involved. QuAIA owes its massive success to people like you Jim and that's the truth.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
07/09/11 3:05 AM EST
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It's all over now...Get a life !!!
Blah...Blah...Blah...You're all losers, repeating the same tired arguments, the same old crap...Over and over and over again...It's all over now...Get a life !!! Go out dancing :)
Blah...Blah, Toronto Ont
07/09/11 4:28 AM EST
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Showing solidarity with Hamas
Blah, why would QuAIA members want to stop their antics in support of the Hamas government in Gaza? For example, this week, the Hamas government in Gaza has begun enforcing a law introduced last year banning men from cutting women's hair. This is obviously an opportunity for QuAIA to show solidarity with Hamas against gay male hairdressers who cut women's hair. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14050894
Tim, Toronto Ontario
07/09/11 7:07 AM EST
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Right on Tim!
Elle made herself the story here. She didn't have to. She wanted a debate on QuAIA, and she's got it. Yeah, Cohen has lots of fans, she's never lost a legal battle and QuAIA has, and you can whine all you like, but it won't change a thing. Go Tim Go! As we used to say, Tough Noogies.
anon, Toronto ON
07/09/11 11:07 AM EST
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Interpol wants to talk to QUAIA
Apparently, the QuAIA Solidarity With Hamas Support Group and Defense Fund is meeting with police at 51 Division or at Tim McCaskell's house or at El Farouk Khaki's law office, or at Wong-Tam's Timothy's On Church because although they could afford a banner and to send Elle to Greece, only Kristyn had the credit to pay for QuAIA's website.. Tina's obviously on it, and I'm sure will find no lack of complainers. Be sure to give your name and address to the nice policemen. Cohen's like Listerine - she tastes bad, but man, she works. There may be a 'free speech' QUAIA hypocrisy challenge at Pride next year. Militant Muslim groups issuing fatwas will unfurl a banner over Khaki's office (he accused CJC of a 'zionist conspiracy' with the NDP in 2003 and rallied with suspected Pakistani terrorists suspected of targeting the CN Tower, crying 'racism' until most were deported for fraudulent visas. Isn't Khaki an immigration lawyer?), the Catholic Archdiocese of Toronto may rent space above the Pride Offices or the South Stage and unfurl a banner proclaiming that homosexuality is essentially disordered, and Queers Against QuAIA will launch a banner over Kristyn Wong Tam's business on Church St. Just kidding, but you get the point. Elle, Irwin Cotler is quoted right here in the Jewish Tribune against groups like yours claiming 'Israeli Apartheid' and seeking to delegitimize and eliminate the Jewish state of Israel, and a report on the Flotilla suggests the Canadian and Israeli governments urged them to use LEGAL MEANS to deliver aid such as the Red Cross, and that Israel delivers more than the Flotilla to Gaza every two days, and Canadian government Minister John Baird says members of the Flotilla may be charged with supporting terrorism if they can be shown to be supporting Hamas, a recognized terrorist group. The Flotilla gang is known to include radical western leftists and radical anti-Israel Islamists. http://www.jewishtribune.ca/TribuneV2/index.php?option=com_con
The Zionist Conspiracy, Toronto ON
07/09/11 2:57 PM EST
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More on the Flotilla - sorry Elle
Incidentally, Irwin Cotler was Justice Minister supporting the same-sex marriage bill in Canada in 2005, and is a proud past president of the Canadian Jewish Congress. Correction though - the report in the Jewish Tribune here on the Flotilla says Israel actually delivers 26 times the amount of aid delivered by the Flotilla every 2 days, and the Red Cross in Gaza has confirmed there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, supermarkets are full of food and Gaza citizens enjoy a higher standard of living than most other surrounding Arab/Muslim states. So, QuAIA's really just about being self-serving Israel bashing media whores who don't mind keeping company with terrorists who refuse to admit to Israel's right to exist as a Jewish democratic state and are committed to pushing the Jews into the sea. Incidentally, Cotler wanted a dialogue with PA leader Abbas in Jerusalem but had to cancel it after the PA embraced Hamas in Gaza. So, why not follow his example? When QuAIA wants a dialogue or your pro-terrorist funds, just.say.no. Or have them target gay and pro-gay Jews in support of Israel, their businesses and families and the community at large. Just walk away. Most of us already have. http://www.jewishtribune.ca/TribuneV2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4556&Itemid=53
The Zionist Conspiracy Again, Toronto ON
07/09/11 3:34 PM EST
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More on Khaki/QuAIA/Salaam
Quick correction. QUAIA's lawyer friend El Farouk knows that truth is an absolute defence against libel. It was 2004 when El Farouk joined the NDP Muslim Dissidents in publishing an open letter to Jack Layton demanding to know who in the CJC had met with them (as they do with all parties) on the NDPs foreign policy and then accused the CJC of a 'zionist conspiracy'. It was published in the summer of 2004 in the socialist/communist press. Former CJC president and law professor Ed Morgan had to take the time to publish an op ed in the National Post in October 2004 just before presenting for gay marriage at the Supreme Court of Canada reference, which is why we were protected by the RCMP there. Also had to call the RCMP in Sept 2003 after El Farouk's 'first name only secret Salaam conference hosting Svend Robinson, Yasser Arafat's pal' in June 2003, when Pakistani Muslims were suspected of terrorism and targetting the CN Tower. Khaki had some Muslim-Jewish dialogue nut named Gail Nestel who attended the Salaam conference with her married Muslim ex-girlfriend and who was 'dialoguing' with Wahabist Saudis demand that CJC provide them with lawyers. CJC declined. Khaki rallied with the Muslim Canadian Congress, with the suspected terrorists, filming city infrastructure, crying racism. The suspected terrorists were later deported for having fraudulent student visas listing non-existent Muslim educational institutions. We had to call the RCMP then too. In 2008, Khaki's pal, Italian marxist anti-Israel journalist Gianni Verdoliva of Turin tried to infiltrate Jewish women's groups for a Canadian Studies paper in Milan on "Jewish women at the crossroads" - we blocked it and he spoke on the literature of Margaret Laurence and Margaret Atwood instead. Verdoliva reported on the 'progressive feminist Islam' services attended by Khaki in NYC and Toronto. Ask him about the latest Muslim anti-gay hate conference in Toronto or the works of Irshad Manji and Ay
The Zionist Conspiracy Again, Toronto ON
07/09/11 4:22 PM EST
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go jo go!
The Ed Morgan noted above is now suing the pants off York University for its creation of poisoned climates and toleration of Israel Apartheidists' assault on a Jewish student. Cohen probably already has a legal team reading all these posts and the Jewish community has been waiting for nothing more than the pleasure of suing your pathetic asses for years now. Here's the Bnai Brith report on escalating rise of anti-semitic incidents in Canada - it's relied upon by law enforcement but not QuAiA obviously and shows links between Israel bashing and hate crimes. Of course if those 'free speech' banners against gays were posted at Pride they'd be shouting 'homophobia and hate crimes'. B'nai Brith did host a hate crimes conference including the 519 and Toronto Police LGBT reps and others and advocates against anti-gay hate crimes, unlike Salaam or CIC or MCC or QUAIA. Solidarity against Muslim terrorist hate crimes and 'activism' and cultural jihad against law abiding citizens. Mama always said you can tell a lot about a person by the QUAIA/Hamas/Salaam company they keep. Just ask Elle or QuAIA or Hamas if they support a Jewish democratic state of Israel, if not, you should probably call the police. http://bnaibrith.ca/files/audit2009/MAINAUDITENG.pdf
The Inconvenient Truth, toronto ont
07/09/11 5:29 PM EST
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Peace in our time?
Love is a many splendored thing.. The golden crown that makes a man a king. Once on a high and windy hill, In the morning mist two lovers kissed and the world stood still, Then your fingers touched my silent heart and taught it how to sing, Yes, true love's a many-splendored thing.
Love is all you need, Toronto Ontario
07/09/11 6:29 PM EST
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Peace, peace, baby
Nice. Hey, the US senate passed a UNANIMOUS resolution that if Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank unilaterally declare the establishment of the 'state of Palestine' (where Elle and QuAIA live) and don't renounce terrorism and Hamas and recognize Israel's existence by negotiating a peaceful settlement, they'll lose all US aid! The EU apparently agrees. Personally I'm on shpilkes for September (the anniversary of the Intifada, when the QUAIA nutbars and their friends always ramp up the anti-Israel rhetoric on campus and in NOW) when the PA tries to manipulate states in the UN to vote for this. I suspect they'll immediately declare war on Israel (most of their terrorist organizations already have) and likely lose every war they've started as they have since 1948. Hear that, Elle? No such place as Palestine. But, if QuAIA wants to meet with Israeli officials on behalf of Hamas or the PA, be our guest. Of course you'd have to renounce your boycott of Israel to actually visit there and meet with people who actually know more than Elle Flanders and understand law and terrorism (strange as it may seem). Hey campers, let's all sing The Good Ship Titanic for Elle and QuAIA and Hamas and the PA and the 'Flotilla' boat. I think we're all free to have fun with this now. And that is what out is all about. http://www.jewishtribune.ca/TribuneV2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4562&Itemid=53
Peace baby!, Toronto Ontario
07/09/11 7:16 PM EST
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Sing Titanic for Elle/QuAIA/Hamas
Couldn't resist - there are so many zionist Jewish campers reading this now. Remember kids, Kadimah is ahead of the pack. Here's a cute kid singing The Good Ship Titanic on the Ellen Degeneres Bathroom Series. It's adorable and dedicated to the Flotilla/QuAIA morons. Making the world safe for kids to celebrate the sinking of pro-terrorist ships carrying Elle Flanders and QuAIA and Hamas supporters is just one of the services we offer here.
For all those campy camp counsellors, toronto on
07/09/11 8:10 PM EST
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Here's the youtube link to Titanic
Has anyone else read the 'posting guidelines' below? No defamation and personal remarks? Yah right. Give us a break. Here's the song. Let's all camp it up now, people! This is called 'fair comment' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srdw9jrd4RQ&feature=related
Campy camp counsellor, toronto on
07/09/11 8:15 PM EST
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Drawing pictures of Quaia/Hamas terrorists
Golly, zionist day camp is such fun, that's where I came out and fell in love, and for those who remember our arts and crafts cabin and singalongs and my Mr. Bill dolls out of plasticine and celebrating Mick Jagger's birthday with clay models of the Stones on the beach, we're reenacting the sinking of the QuAIA / Flotilla boat and other campers are drawing fun pictures of QuAIA/Hamas/Flanders/Salaam urban terrorists and waiting for the fatwas like they did when the Jihad boys killed that Muslim cartoonist in Denmark who drew the prophet/jihadist Muhammed with a ticking terrorist bomb on his head. Let's have fun, kids, and be sure to read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's books on the dysfunctional character of Islamic culture and society and its inability to tolerate real criticism and human rights like QuAIA/Salaam/Hamas, etc. She was on TVO the other night and simply brilliant. http://www.amazon.ca/Infidel-Ayaan-Hirsi-Ali/dp/0743289684
The Free Speech Arts & Crafts Cabin, to on
07/09/11 10:05 PM EST
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Meshugga Beach Party - Exodus!
Hey, the campers on the canoe dock are celebrating the complete self-destruction of Flanders/QuAIA/Flotilla/Salaam. The legal folks are wondering whether to call the RCMP re: Flanders QuAIA and Flotilla's possible links to terrorism. Anyway, here's the theme from Exodus by Meshugga Beach Party. Don't forget your legal life jackets, when you capsize the Flotilla boats and QuAIA nutbars! All history is dance. Movement in time. Just(ice) in time. Later, QuAIA losers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=361trQe14iM
All history is dance, to ont
07/10/11 9:55 AM EST
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Reports QuAIA hung banner over Pizza Pizza
Latest rumours are QuAIA just hung their pathetic banner over the centre of our LGBT village over the Pizza Pizza shop at Church/Wellesley. We know Pizza Pizza is unlikely to have supported their objectives, so who owns the property? What a bunch of f-ing goofs.
Church and Wellesley, Toronto ON
07/10/11 6:00 PM EST
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Can't believe the naiveté of Quaia
Anyone in QUAIA is a dhimmi. You're being used by Muslims to advance their agenda of killing Israel, establishing political domination /Sharia law everywhere, and then going after and executing gays. Any muslim who tells you differently is committing takkiya. Don't know what these words are? Well, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w Why do you think gays support Geert Wilders in Holland? Wake up to Islam and how it hates gays!
Can't believe the naiveté of Qua, Ontario Ontario
07/11/11 9:17 AM EST
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discrediting yourselves
to Zionist Conspiracy, Justice in Time, Free Speech Arts and Crafts, All History is Dance, etc. Once again, you have your facts wrong, perhaps intentionally so for your moronic rantings. But for the record, I am not in Gaza nor am I on the flotilla, nor am I in Greece. I am not interested or a member of Hamas, nor am I a terrorist because I support a peaceful resolution to ending the Occupation of Palestine (if there isn't a Palestine, I'm confused about who the PA are, what they are governing, and what those green passports that say Palestine on them are? but I'll leave that to your clearly intelligent repartee). No doubt you are rejoicing as Israel passes into law by a Knesset vote of 38 to 47, (with many MK's MIA such as Bibi himself, the coward) the outlawing of boycott by Israelis and/or anyone in the OPT. This law will do more to “de-legitimize” Israel as a “normal” western-style democracy than any action the BDS movement could ever dream of. This is the first of an entire barrage of anti-democratic bills being pushed for legislation that actually went through. So celebrate the demise of 'the only democracy in the MIddle East', as that is what you and your ilk seem to be promoting. Soon Israeli LGBT rights that you so cherish may also disappear with Shas and Yisrael Beitenu, but you don't really know anything about this complicated stuff, do you? It's all Hitler, Hamas, terrorism and Muslims-who-hate-Jews for you. Your pathetic hyperbole only discredits you and shows your deep ignorance cloaked in nonsense. Bibi and Avigdor love queers about as much as Harper and Ford. Enjoy your bedfellows, they're an attractive lot. I would also like to apologize on your behalves to the queer community as whole for subjecting them to your mindless intolerant rants.
Elle Flanders, toronto ON
07/11/11 5:09 PM EST
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YAHOOO !!! ELLE FLANDERS !!!
YAHOOO !!! ELLE FLANDERS !!! You said it all so eloquently and to the point. I hated this whole season of idiotic, ignorant, factless, banter about the QuAIA --from both sides. It's over and yet the muttering still continues. I am not a QuAIA supporter, but I read the Israeli newspapers daily and I agree with Elle about many of the undemocratic and racist policies of the Israeli Government and Rabbis, some of which their own Knesset members object to and supreme court has reprimanded and overturned. This is not anti-semitic criticism, it's a criticism of anti-democratic policies of a government. Like those who criticize the Canadian Government. I also read about the attrocities in the Muslim world where they blow up each other's temples along with innocent farmers at their markets...and jail and execute Gays. We can also criticize their governments. There are complex horrors going on everywhere. But that's another story. Nonetheless, I never knew Elle Flanders --I have heard a lot about her-- truths and lies... But now reading her own words, endears me to her. She is actually an intelligent, well-read person, who also writes well. She seems to be fed up with the QuAIA banter, muttering and crap --and so am I !!!! JUST STOP IT !!! Focus your attention on the new condo developments threatening our Gay Village, or go feed the homeless, or just go out dancing instead, to wear off all your negativity.
CharlesF, Toronto Ont
07/11/11 6:51 PM EST
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Oh, Goody, Elle's back (yawn)
Earlier quote from Elle Flanders: you can reach me in Palestine. I'm with the flotilla. I don't think she knows where the fuck she is, do you? But anyway, it is fun to watch her scream at the world - millions of Jews in Israel and the US and Canada are having a howl now, but remember, Elle always knows more than you, about everything. Did she correct herself or apologize for her attacks on everyone else? No. Later, baby.
Just the facts, ma'am, toronto on
07/11/11 10:24 PM EST
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Elle, Dialogue This
Now, before suggesting Elle / QUAIA knows more than everyone in Israel (including progay and liberal and left MPs who are also concerned about terrorism and the BDS - we're one step away from terrorists movement), just read her posts and rants and insanity and ask yourself if you or any sane person you know would want to dialogue with her. Irwin Cotler refused a debate with Abbas when Abbas and PA embraced HAMAS. Elle, if you want QUAIA to negotiate with the Israeli government (not that you've been elected to anything), be our guest, because I'd enjoy watching them take you apart. You can't see it from here, but I think I think an international flag and symbol for 'go fuck yourself QUAIA'. That Toronto's community is so ignorant it believes only the BDS and QuAIA and IAW crowd is a testament to its idiocy and vulnerability to hate crimes and terror, and be sure to ask them (now that all the smart Jews have left the LGBT community and don't feel safe in our institutions) what they've done for queer palestinian rights (none) or anyone's rights here at home (nothing). Bye Elle, enjoy your trip and don't hurry back.
Dialogue This, Toronto Ontario
07/11/11 10:37 PM EST
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Just Fu*k off already!!!!
@DialogueThis or rather @DiatribeThis. Your rant is a diatribe of opinion and you haven't actually said anything factual or meaningful. You are a blithering bigmouth, spraying saliva and bits of food. You are an idiot like so many of the others who banter back and forth about the QuAIA and on both sides of the debate. All of you should Fu*k off already. It has become soooo tiresome. Choose another topic for venting your anger that the antidepressants are not strong enough to handle. Try antipsychotics or rat poison. Just Fu*k off already!!!!
Enough-Shit-Already, Toronto ONT
07/12/11 12:13 AM EST
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The issue isn't going to fade away
Enough, I don't think that the continued controversy over QuAIA is going to fade away. QuAIA believes strongly in showing solidarity with the homophobic Hamas government in Palestine. For example, key leaders of QuAIA have repeatedly and passionately condemned Israel, Prime Minister Harper and Mayor Ford, but never Hamas or other homophobic Muslim governments in the Mideast that kill and persecute gays and oppress women. QuAIA even considers Canada to be an apartheid state (see their website). QuAIA is supported by many left-wing Queer activists and leaders of LGBT organizations in Toronto - including Xtra, The 519, The PWA Foundation, Black Coalition for AIDS Prevention, Pride Free Speech Coalition, etc. On the other side, the opponents of QuAIA and Hamas are just as passionate. As long as QuAIA engages in publicity stunts in the LGBT community, it will continue to create controversy.
Joe, Toronto Ontario
07/12/11 12:44 AM EST
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Facts for Elle and QUAIA
The issues here are (a) why does QUAIA insist on using illegal means to advance its anti-Israel agenda? (b) what are the links of QuAIA to recognized terrorist groups and hate criminals advancingthe same arguments? (c) why does QUAIA and the BDS/IAW movement insist on importing its pro-terrorist disputes with the Israeli government to Toronto, to Canada and the west instead of acting in the mideast with the Israelis and Palestinians? (d) why does QuAIA chant 'Viva Viva Intifada, Viva Viva Palestina' as they did at previous Pride Parades, as the Intifada is associated with terrorist bombings on ordinary Israeli citizens, who lost more people in the Intifada than the US did at 9/11? (e) why does QuAIA suggest that the lack of democratic freedoms and human rights in the Palestinian Territories and Gaza is Israel's fault? (f) when will QUAIA explain that there is something inherently wrong in violent patriarchal and tribal Muslim cultures which is why there are no real Muslim/Arab democracies with freedom of the press, religious and political freedom for dissidents, women's rights, gay rights, etc.? (g) Why does QUAIA insist that Israel is 'pinkwashing' - not that it's perfect when it clearly does have solidarity with Palestinian queer rights - Palestinian Israelis enjoy better human rights, despite Israel's alleged faults than they would in Gaza or the PA or anywhere else in the Arab/Muslim world? (h) Why did Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty say that Ontario has a lot to learn from Israel in his trade visit there - Israel's economy outperforms ours, is better educated and high tech? (i) Why did the Ont Legislature pass a motion endorsed unanimously by the Tories and Liberals (from which the NDP abstained) condemning the language "israel apartheid" and Israel Apartheid Week on university campuses as fostering hateful climates that put Jewish students at risk and are documented to be linked with criminal acts? (j) Why did the federal Tories and Lib
Facts for Elle and QuAIA, Toronto ON
07/12/11 7:39 AM EST
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More facts for Elle and QuAIA
Sorry, to finish that earlier point: (j) Why did the leaders of the federal Conservatives and Liberals in the last election condemn the language of "Israel Apartheid" and IAW on campuses as misleading and unfair and contributing to discrimination and hate crimes in our community? (k) Why was Stephen Harper elected on a pledge of solidarity with Israel in our global battle against terrorist? (l) Why is Ontario Tory leader Tim Hudak leading in the polls and likely to be elected in the fall - also in solidarity with Israel and against terrorism and crime in Ontario? (m) Why was Rob Ford elected Mayor of Toronto overwhelmingly on a pledge to remove tax funding from Pride if QUAIA were present in respect of the law abiding taxpayers of Toronto who are tired of being victimized and hijacked? (n) Why don't Pride Toronto and Xtra and the LGBT and left press and communities disavow QUAIA and terrorism and hate crimes and the creation of unsafe climates for law abiding Jews at Pride, on our city streets, in Sherbourne Health Centre, in our universities, discriminating on grounds of ethnicity, religion, creed, conscience, and national origin? (o) Why do Pride Toronto and QUAIA think that they are entitled to taxpayer dollars to provide a platform for QUAIA to bash Israel when public opinion and political opinion and law are clearly against QUAIA's message and tactics? (p) Why are pro-Palestinian Muslim queers like El Farouk Khaki not facing fatwas, if not for the support of pro-terrorist groups approving of their Israel bashing? (r) Why are Elle Flanders and Aswat leader Rauda Morcos (queer palestinian and their groups) safe in Israel however much they whine but not likely to be as safe in the PA or Gaza? (s) Why did Israeli left groups reluctantly agree that the security wall that the PA and QUAIA complain about was necessary for national security against terrorism? (t) When will the BDS/IAW/QUAIA contingent and PA leader Abbas and Hamas renounce te
More facts for Elle and QuAIA, Toronto ON
07/12/11 8:14 AM EST
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more facts for Elle and QUAIA
Sorry, to continue: (t) When will the BDS/IAW/QUAIA contingent renounce terrorism and insist that the Palestinian 'unity government' of the PA and GAZA which includes recognized terrorist groups such as Hamas, committed to the elimination of Israel (genocide) negotiate a peaceful settlement with Israel? (u) When will the BDS/IAW/QUAIA contingent admit to the documented link between their false discourse and rising hate crimes and security risks against Jewish institutions and the public at large, paid for by our tax dollars and increasing policing? (w) When will the BDS/QUAIA/IAW contingent come clean on who's funding them, because funding terrorist groups in Canada is illegal, and here's the Wikipedia list of Muslim terrorist groups, including Palestinian terror groups already present in Canada? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations (x) When will the LGBT community, left media, Xtra, and Pride admit that they have been hoodwinked by QUAIA's claims of 'free speech', 'working on other issues than gay rights', in the presence of this pro-terrorist and unlawful activity and for more on that here is the US State Department report on The Terrorist Enemy and its attempts to manipulate discourse and public space and political controversy to advance pro-terrorist aims? http://www.state.gov/s/ct/enemy/ Well, we've reached 'x', and X is for Xtra, so I hope they follow up on the links posted above on hate crimes and relation to this discourse and possible links of QuAIA members to unlawful terrorist groups in Canada and abroad. BTW, we haven't yet had ONE single conviction of a pro-Israel Jew for a hate crime or terrorist act in Canada, and most support LGBT equality in Canada and around the world and have contributed to your rights here. Just saying. Thassall for now.
More facts for Elle and QUAIA, Toronto ON
07/12/11 8:26 AM EST
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Accuracy in Reading for Oh Goody
Actually, Just the Facts Ma'am, Elle said please send the legal papers to her VIA the flotilla, as she was in Palestine working with a queer group. She didn't say she was ON the flotilla. Maybe you should stop yawning and start paying attention when you read. Good sleuthing!
Sherlock Holmes, Toronto ON
07/12/11 10:46 AM EST
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Flanders is too dumb for words
No shit, sherlock. Well I'm sure the nice boys at 51 Division or the IDF Military Intelligence Directorate will enjoy reaching Ms. Flanders c/o the Flotilla or somewhere in "Palestine", and we're pretty sure Israeli officials and Canadian officials will cooperate in bringing Ms. Flanders to justice. Does the Flotilla have an address or would you like that mail delivered to graphicpictures.org or graphicpictures@gmail.com? Incidentally, if Flanders and QUAIA were as legit as they claim, they wouldn't waste all of our time as they have.
Oh Goody, toronto on
07/12/11 11:02 AM EST
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The end of Israeli Democracy
ARTICLE: Israel's boycott law: The quiet sound of going fascist. This is the one. This is where the slope turns nowhere but down. When the Knesset passed the boycott law, it changed the history of the state of Israel. Latest update 18:18 12.07.11 http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/israel-s-boycott-law-the-quiet-sound-of-going-fascist-1.372881
Israeli Democracy, Toronto Ont
07/12/11 3:21 PM EST
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Elle finally posted anonymously!
C'mon Ms. Flanders, be a nice person and take responsibility for your posts - you already advanced this argument earlier. Do you read anything but Haaretz? Because there's a lot more to the story and so far you only seem to quote Cotler in Haaretz. Yawn. And oh, please do give us the update on 'democracy' in Gaza and the PA and lack of human rights and what's gonna happen in September when 'Palestine' unilaterally declares statehood and abandons any attempt at peaceful reconciliation with Israel? Will QuAIA disappear then? We can only hope. And if you're a friend of Elle's or QUAIA's have her lawyer get in touch pronto.
Tough Noogies, Toronto ON
07/12/11 5:25 PM EST
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Actually, I didn't
Too bad you cloak yourself— touch noogies, oh goody and all the rest of you malicious people (or is it one of you? you seem to have the same flare for yawning, hyperbole and venom). I didn't actually post the above article at all, but it's a good one. But I guess Haaretz is not a legitimate source either. (hmm, maybe maligning an Israeli newspaper, *singling it out* is antisemitic). You insist on attributing things to me time and again that simply aren't so. This is not a bash elle comments section. It is about issues. can you not be civil and stop the cyberbullying? Try to crawl out of the hate-filled gutter you wallow in and engage in a civil debate without name calling. Otherwise, go pick on someone your own size; I am not responsible for the middle east crisis or even QuAIA for that matter, there are thousands of people who share my/our views, Jewish Voice for Peace, IJV, many of the writers at Haaretz, Boycott Within (Israeli group), Peace Now, Association for Civil Rights in Israel, etc. But I guess its easier to pick on individuals and make them targets for your bullying. Start a letter writing campaign to any of the above, be politically active, but leave me alone.
elle flanders, toronto ON
07/12/11 6:42 PM EST
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but elle, we are debating you
I don't know if Ms. Flanders realizes all her posts are likely permanently in the public domain and may form the subject of civil and criminal investigations. I believe she asked for a debate some time ago and abused people (contrary to the guidelines of this list) not to mention Canadian law and now asks as a public nuisance/figure/advocate for QUAIA that we not debate her? They can lampoon Mayor Ford but not QuAIA? Obviously only Ms. Flanders has free speech here, right? And Elle, if not for your previous attacks on anyone who opposes you and your veiled threats and history of libel and harassment, maybe others would like to play with you more often. Now, like one of those obnoxious playground figures we all love to hate, take your QUAIA ball and go home to Palestine or sail with the flotilla and have the courage of your convictions and prove that QUAIA is legal, cause I think they're not. Go away now. Nobody cares what you say anymore.
Yah Right, Toronto ON
07/12/11 7:06 PM EST
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QuAIA debacle is over
@ELLE- The QuAIA debacle is over, even though it was just a small Queer contingent of a larger Anti-Israeli-Apartheid movement in Universities around North America and the world --including inside Israel. York and UofT have their contingents. But half the people who rant and rave in these columns, spewing the same made up ignorant garbage over and over again, are borderline psychotic. They are having arguments with their own inner demons. They probably harass other newspapers as well with other garbage as they have no life. The more anyone engages them the more they feed their anger. Let them rant at each other with big words or banter, until they become so angry that they have a stroke. They will implode when they are ready. Or maybe they'll just get bored and go away.
QuAIA is over, Toronto Ont
07/12/11 8:08 PM EST
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“it’s OK to kill Muslim babies”
“Hamas says it’s OK to kill Jewish babies because they might grow up to be Israeli soldiers.” “The authors of Torat Hamelech say it’s OK to kill Muslim babies if you think they will grow up to be terrorists.” “ If one statement qualifies as “incitement,” so does the other.” “Do not desecrate the image of God -By BARRY LEFF 07/12/2011- The debate over 'Torat Hamelech' is a clash over the soul of Judaism.” “Torat Hamelech (Laws of the King) is a book by two rabbis from the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar... The book has been in the news again recently because rabbis Dov Lior and Yakov Yosef were called in for police questioning due to their letters of approbation for the book. The book’s stated purpose is to provide guidance on how Jewish soldiers should conduct themselves.” “They cite as an example the 13 soldiers killed in Jenin in 2002 because the IDF sent them in on foot instead of using heavy artillery to flatten a Palestinian neighborhood. The authors feel that heavy artillery should have been used, with no regard given to what would have been a massacre of non-combatant Palestinians.” http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=229058
Jerusalem-Post, Toronto Ont
07/12/11 9:21 PM EST
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QUAIA : Fade Away Now ....
Ok QUAIA, you've had your 15 minutes of fame, time to fade away. These supporters of this uneducated, misguided group, must support the murders of gay people in the Middle East because why else would a group be against a people and a country that is the ONLY one in the region that actually supports gay rights and does NOT murder people because they are gay ? Let's all do ourselves a great, BIG favour - IGNOR THIS ISSUE FOR THE REST OF THE SUMMER - ENJOY YOURSELVES BEFORE THE RETURN OF OUR CANADIAN WINTER !
J. Taylor, Vancouver BC
07/13/11 2:43 AM EST
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affront to freedom of expression
“American Jews Rally Against Boycott Law Controversial legislation sees Jewish community in US unite in denouncing it as affront to freedom of expression” -Ynet- Published: 07.13.11 / Israel News http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4094680,00.html _____________________“Israel Bans Boycotts Against the State” -By ISABEL KERSHNER -New York Times -Published: July 11, 2011- http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/world/middleeast/12israel.html
Israeli-Freedom-Gone, Toronto Ont
07/13/11 3:22 AM EST
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“Counting the cost of a Palestinian state”
“For 20 years, the Washington-led peace process has succeeded in doing one thing better than anything else; giving Israel every incentive to maintain its occupation. By assigning the policing responsibilities for the urban centers to the Palestinian Authority and having the Europeans and the Americans pay for this project, Israel has effectively retained the security domination and colonial usurpation benefits inherent in occupation without having to be responsible for any of the costs. It can build settlements in Palestinian land and steal Palestinian water, both acts in direct opposition to international law, but simultaneously ditch obligations it has to the population it occupies and use the ongoing Peace Process to deflect international criticism for obviating Palestinian self-determination.” http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/07/201179114849859694.html
“aljazeera”, Toronto Ont
07/13/11 3:59 AM EST
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Israeli-Freedom-Gone
What is your point? So What, even the United States has Anti-Boycott laws in place. So I'm guessing the US is not a free or even democratic? So why can't Israel have one? Source U.S. Bureau of Industry and Security : http://www.bis.doc.gov/complianceandenforcement/antiboycottcompliance.htm
Wow, Wow Wow
07/13/11 4:01 AM EST
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beginning of the erosion of Israeli democracy
The United States has sanctions and boycotts against various countries as well in an imperialistic way. The US also prohibits boycotts of Israel and Israeli companies by American Nationals who may want to comply with boycott laws against Israel by Arab countries. That is a form of trade protectionism. The current Israeli Boycott law is different in that applies only within Israel and prohibits boycott of government institutions by individuals or companies, as a form of protest against Israeli policies --thereby denying freedom of expression of belief. That is undemocratic and the beginning of the erosion of Israeli democracy.
Israeli Democracy Ends, Toronto Ont
07/13/11 4:30 AM EST
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If QuAIA met Hammas they'd shit their pants
The QuAIA are just a bunch of naive, idealistic, students, academics and intellectual. They do NOT support Hammas nor Hezbullah. If the QuAIA ever met someone from Hammas they would shit their pants and run away. But the QuAIA are gone now. The screaming nonsensical arguments are over and the students will dance and get drunk all summer before they go back to school to pick up a new passion too protest against next time. That's what students are like :-) Meanwhile the fat-bellied arm-chair politicians who banter back and forth in these columns will have to find something else to argue about or sit in their armchairs alone with their bottle of booze -- bored. They too will have to pick some other fight or actually go outside and talk to people.
Bye-Bye, Toronto Ont
07/13/11 4:47 AM EST
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Israeli Democracy does not end
They are trying to protect their country from the lies that come Anti Israel Organizations. Sadly this is no different from the United States Anti-boycott law. If people, company's, universities, the left boycott's Israel then it is illegal too under American Anti Boycott laws.Same deal, For Example if the QuAIA was promoting Boycotts of Israel in the United States it would be illegal for them to do so even if it was freedom of expression. Also most countries including Canada do have laws that protects the state and our allies. I really do not blame Israel for what they are doing since the US has the same Anti Boycott laws too. Since this law does even apply to private individuals. Also I bet someone will Challenge the Law in Israel's Supreme Court funny how people in Israel can sue the State unlike in Syria. Assad comes and kills you if that was the case and of course no screaming for boycotts of Syria.
Wow, Wow Wow
07/13/11 5:23 AM EST
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And what exactly......
And what exactly does middle east politics have to do with gay pride or more importantly gay culture. Last I checked pride was a celebration of gay rights and culture period. Although I agree that the middle east issues are important, the simple fact is, QAIA and the like have no relevance to pride nor do they contribute to the celebratory and gay centric politics to which it was created. If these types of groups wish to have a "everyones pet peeve and political bitchfest" then so be it, but really, why must this kind of nonsense mar what should be a celebration of what we have accomplished instead of turning into a post-mo, politically correct, faux activist mosh pit.
Jon, Montreal Quebec
07/13/11 8:11 PM EST
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Yes, John, Yes!
Yes, there is no relation to debates on Israeli politics to LGBT rights. Israel and Canada have them - Palestine doesn't and neither does anywhere else in the Muslim/Arab world. We've been trying to tell this to Pride and Toronto for many years now, because most of 200,000 lawful Jewish citizens and taxpayers in Toronto support LGBT equality and Israel and Pride. Didn't see many conservative Muslims there,and I doubt Pride or the LGBTcommunity can count on much support from the mainstream Muslim community, which advocates against gay rights and issues fatwas against visible gays (unless they're bashing Israel), so why alienate the very people who have always supported women's and human rights and gay rights and have been some of the strongest advocates for LGBT equality and human rights for everyone? This has always been about the infiltration of our public places and institutions such as Pride Toronto, universities, Sherbourne Health Centre, Theatre Passe Muraille and others just by people who want to bash Israel and Jews and whose arguments are closely linked not only to rising discrimination and hate crimes (ethnicity, religion, creed, conscience, and national origin) against Jews and Jewish sites (all of which live with security now),but are also closely linked to terrorist groups that have not only used anti-Israel arguments in bombing Hebrew schools and Jewish community centres, as in Montreal, but have done so in bombing the World Trade Centre and other terrorist targets in Europe. Isn't it time the LGBT community and Pride Toronto stood up to the threats within our community? Pride always had the right to tell unrelated groups to leave - as they would fundamentalist antigay or proud ex gay groups or those advocating hatred of anyone. To claim that Israel is an apartheid state is false. They use this false claim as a cudgel to bash Israel and most Jews by association but never admit to the lack of democracy and the real terrorist threat in 'Palestine'
Oui Jean Oui, Toronto Ontario
07/13/11 10:06 PM EST
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You're being duped
As an outsider, let me tell you what I see. The gay community is being occupied by radical Islamists who are trying to speak on Islamic issues at the expense of gay people. Leftists (but actually non-criticals) are simply helping them by taking a stance agaist the wrong issue and deflecting away from the problems of Islam. Mammolitti was doing his job at gay pride and I commend him. I think a lot of queer people are intimidated by QuAIA, and Mammolatti is helping them. Bravo to the city councilor. That's the strategy of radical Islam, you know. Work with the fringe groups like feminists and gays to chip away at civil law. Gays and feminists don't reproduce. Muslim Fundamentalists do in whole bunches. Gay people should read more about this. Why do you think so many gays in Holland support Geert Wilders? They know they couldn't exist under Sharia law. Do some research!
xoxox, ontario Ontario
07/14/11 11:47 AM EST
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JEWS' CRITICISM OF ISRAEL IS NOT ANTI-SEMITIC
“Israelis and Arabs march in Jerusalem for Palestinian statehood --By Joel Greenberg, Friday, July 15, WashingtonPost-- JERUSALEM — A crowd of about 2,000 Jewish Israelis and Palestinian activists marched through East Jerusalem on Friday in a show of support for Palestinian statehood, a rare Jewish-Arab demonstration in this contested city. ...Daniel Argo, from the Israeli group Sheikh Jarrah Solidarity, the main organizer of the march, asserted that Palestinian statehood would free Israel from the burden of occupation. “The struggle for Palestinian independence is also a struggle for freedom for Israelis,” he said.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/israelis-and-arabs-march-in-jerusalem-for-palestinian-statehood/2011/07/15/gIQAQPnSGI_story.html
Pro-Israel + Pro-Palestine, Toronto Ont
07/15/11 7:01 PM EST
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The issue is law, not criticism
Yahoo, the QUAIA research directorate is back in action. Ok, so 2000 people protested in Israel. And QuAIA has maybe 200 people in Toronto? So, why not survey the REST of the Jewish community who DO support Israel and who are sick of the hate crimes linked to your naive embrace of pro-terrorist groups? My friends in Israel think your NION and Women In Black, and IJV and Jewish Voices for Peace, etc. are a little behind the times. Do let us know if QUAIA knows where Gilad Shalit is, because your friends in Gaza abducted him in 2006. His family and friends miss him. I say, if you'd like to move to Palestine, millions of Jewish Israelis will not miss you, Israeli democracy will flourish without you (and even Canada has anti-terrorism and anti-treason and anti-sedition laws) and no, we're not debating QUAIA's right to 'criticize'. We're debating why QUAIA uses unlawful means to spread its idiotic message, at home and abroad. And see, 'facts for elle and QUAIA' and the questions there for more on that. You people keep some very troubling company, and they can have you, because even Israeli Palestinians reluctantly admit they have better rights and standard of living in Israel than they would anywhere else in Gaza (where human rights groups confirm lynchings of gays and dissidents) or the PA (where Freedom House confirms no freedom for dissidents or journalists). Enjoy your political bedfellows, QUAIA, but we don't have to anymore, and not if you break the law, and not on our taxpayer dime.
whoop dee doo, Toronto ON
07/15/11 10:22 PM EST
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where's the evidence?
If someone has evidence that QuAIA supports Hamas or any other terrorist organization or any gov't, group ,or organization that denies full human rights to its citizens or peoples under its control please produce so we all may be convinced. What no one has any evidence of QuAIA's support for terrorism or violation of anyone's human rights? Of course not because saying such things is just a smear campaign used to try and silence an opinion those saying such things about QuAIA don't share and they feel perfectly justified in using slander and libel in an effort to do so. Surely if there was any such evidence it would have appeared before now. But you know what there is evidence for? The JDL's Meir Weinstein is both opposed to a two state solution and venerates a man, Meir Kahance who encouraged the mass murder of Palestinians and Arabs. He also founded his own group after a proven actual hate group but also a proven actual terrorist organization, as well he was a member of the FB group called "Death to Arabs" and has made statements that Arabs have no place in Israel. Well if he doesn't support a two state solution so all of the occupied territories are to be Israel and he's opposed to Arabs being in Israel, venerates a man who supports the mass murder of Palestinians and Arabs, joined a FB group called "Death to Arabs". I think its only fair to ask what does Meir Weinstein and the JDL plan for the Palestinians if Israel does what Meir wants it to and claim all the occupied territories for itself? Yes Meir and the JDL are on the fringe of Jewish society but the reality is people who think like him have a lot of political power in Israel. For the pro-Israel can do no wrong folks is this really the sort of people you want in charge of Israel? How does attacking critics of Israeli policies help the sort of just democratic safe Israel we all want to see? An independent Palestinian state would help a lot in freeing Israeli democracy from problems inher
Rich, Toronto Ontario
07/16/11 1:06 AM EST
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If QuAIA met Hammas they'd shit their pan
If QuAIA met Hammas they'd shit their pants. The QuAIA are just a bunch of naive, idealistic, students, academics and intellectual. They do NOT support Hammas nor Hezbullah. If the QuAIA ever met someone from Hammas they would shit their pants and run away. But the QuAIA are gone now. The screaming seemingly nonsensical arguments are over and the students will dance and get drunk all summer before they go back to school, to pick up a new passion to protest against next year. That's what students are like :-) Meanwhile the fat-bellied arm-chair politicians who banter back and forth in these columns, will have to find something else to argue about, or sit in their armchairs alone with their bottle of booze -- bored. They too will have to pick some other fight --or actually go outside and talk to people. QuAIA are gone now...QuAIA are gone now...Go to sleep...go to sleep...go to sleep...
ByeByeQuAIA, Toronto Ont
07/16/11 5:10 AM EST
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A few more sources for QUAIA
Really, we've invited QUAIA to protest in Israel (which allowed that protest of 2000 people because it is a democracy), and if QUAIA and those 2000 peaceniks can make peace in the mideast, I'm all for it. But Hamas is a recognized terrorist group, with affiliates in Canada, and QUAIA members are supporting the Flotilla, which may be charged by Canadian and Israeli governments with support for terrorism, contrary to Israeli and Canadian law. And, if QuAIA or NION, or IJV or Jewish Voices for Peace or others with contacts in the peaceful Palestinian community can give the world more information on Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigades and Islamic Jihad and Hezbullah and other recognized terrorist groups operating in the Palestinian Territories and elsewhere, including on our university campuses, I'm sure we'd be very grateful. Yasser Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas would pretend to make peace with Israel, but then claim surprise that they could not control the terrorist groups in PA and Gaza. Israel ceded Gaza to the Palestinians in 2006, but Hamas keeps lobbing Kassam rockets into Israel. What would Stephen Harper do if rogue Americans were lobbing bombs over the Canadian border? Israel has the right to self defence and freedom from terror, and until the Palestinians renounce terrorism and until QUAIA renounces unlawful tactics linked to criminal activity in Canada and abroad, they will have little credibility. Now, it's the Jewish sabbath, and normal Jews don't read this list. But for any fairminded Canadians or Crown Attorneys or Police or intelligence agencies about to charge QUAIA, here's Mitchell Bard's Myths and Facts on the Mideast Conflict. Rock the Naqba! The Palestinians were urged to flee Israel by surrounding Arab states in 1948, and rejected an opportunity for a state alongside Israel which they now seek to proclaim unilaterally with terrorists on board. Now QUAIA, why not cut your debating teeth here? http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html
more research, toronto on
07/16/11 7:20 AM EST
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More sources for QuAIA
So far we've mainly heard from Elle Flanders, Rich, Know1 in support of QUAIA. With flimsy evidence and obvious ignorance of law (which is no excuse). Here again is the Wikipedia list of recognized Muslim terrorist groups, many in Canada and linked to the pro-Palestinian cause. And there have been cases where members of the Canadian Muslim community have cooperated with police investigations, as in the Somali community, leading to apprehension of terrorist groups in Canada. There has not been one case of a pro-Israel Jewish person or group convicted of hate crimes or terrorism in Canada. The issue is not hate speech but criminal activity motivated by bias or hatred against any identifiable group, such as Israeli Canadians, or Israeli nationals, or Jewish Canadians in support of Israel, which is what QUAIA targets. When you clean up your own messes in Canada and prove you're legal, give us a call. Until then, I think public opinion will not support your misuse of tax dollars and creation of public risks and waste of more tax dollars to prosecute Muslim terrorists in Canada. (1) Wikipedia background on Muslim terrorists and profiles around the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism (2) Wikipedia on recognized Muslim terrorist groups (which it is illegal to support in Canada or Israel or the US or most democracies outside the wonky Muslim world). Note the large number of Palestinian liberation groups and terrorist organizations. Why not prove QUAIA and Rich and Elle and Salaam and OPIRG and others DON'T support them, because I think you do. Again, not a single Jewish or pro-Israel group is listed in Canada as a terrorist organization. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism You keep some very troubling company, and most law abiding Canadians, Jewish or not, want nothing to do with you. QUAIA promotes falsely (using Israeli and western freedoms) that Israel is an apartheid state, as UNWRA Palestinian schools have maps omitting Israel.
more research, toronto on
07/16/11 7:50 AM EST
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more research
I want to thank more research for your insightful, and knowledgeable commentary. I agree with 99.9% of what you are saying. My fear is if we emphasise Quaia s ability to be unlawful it will be very hard to prove alot of misdeanors. It is less qualatative to show the association of a hateful message they are purporting will lead to stigmatization of the jewish race.
Jamie, Toronto ON
07/16/11 10:22 AM EST
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A whole pile of verbose crap and slander
“until QUAIA renounces unlawful tactics linked to criminal activity in Canada and abroad, they will have little credibility.” This sound very grand and important --but it is just lies and slander. The 2,000 Jewish Israelis and Palestinian activists who marched through East Jerusalem on Friday in a show of support for Palestinian statehood --were not supporting Hammas nor any terrorism. The QuAIA do not support Hammas nor any terrorist, as most of them are Jewish and criticize only to improve Israel. “Daniel Argo, from the Israeli group Sheikh Jarrah Solidarity, the main organizer of the march, asserted that Palestinian statehood would free Israel from the burden of occupation. “The struggle for Palestinian independence is also a struggle for freedom for Israelis.” Therefore, people who post in these columns, who mix a whole pile of verbose crap accusations and slander together to make themselves sound knowledgeable and important are not helping any cause. They are just shit-disturbers who have lonely lives and have nothing better to do...Just stop it. Go for a walk in the sunshine it will do you more good.
don't-feed-the-crackpots, Toronto Ont
07/16/11 5:18 PM EST
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Thanks jamie
Thanks Jamie - I think you mean well by your comment but it's confusing. No one is prosecuting QuAIA for hate speech. Many are prosecuting them now for offenses under the Criminal Code of Canada linked to bias against Israeli citizens and members of the Jewish community supporting Israel and risks to public safety. They are being investigated by the Israeli and Canadian governments for links to terrorism. I think that there is no point in debating those who support propaganda. As Goebbels showed in the Nazi era, repeating a lie often enough made it true for all political purposes. Most Germans backed the Nazis. Most gays and Canadians and feminists and Pride backed QuAIA's 'free speech' just as they backed Svennie Robinson until his downfall. I think public opinion is now more and more against QuAIA and its threats to Pride's funding and public safety (regardless of your views on Israel - anti-Israel groups' message is irrelevant and intimidating from the lawful participation of pro-gay Jews at Pride and has been since 2001). It's also irrelevant what people think of Mammoliti. I don't like some of Rob Ford's or Georgio Mammoliti's agenda, but as they say in politics, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. If they can get rid of QuAiA when Pride and CAP never could, or if a legal prosecution will do it, that's politics. And legal. And if the gay community does not stand up to these threats, it will only continue to be misidentified with freaks and lawbreakers and druggies and public sex fiends as they already are in Xtra and now in many letters in the left press such as The Toronto Star and NOW Magazine. I joined our LGBT community and fought for LGBT equality because I fell in love, not because I identified with dysfunctional gay culture or organizations, and now it's not safe for many in the Jewish community to work with you or help you without facing anti-Israel and anti-Jewish abuse and ignorance. Your loss, not ours.
more research, toronto on
07/16/11 5:19 PM EST
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Massive rise in antisemitic crimes!
Why lookee here! Its already in Xtra! Here's a report on the latest Parliamentary paper on the massive increase in anti-Jewish hate crimes (which includes vandalism and targetting religious Jews and others in support of Israel) alongside anti-gay hate crimes! And re: that post above suggesting one Palestinian from the lefty wingnut protest of 2000 in Israel says 'ending the occupation' would end the opprobrium against Israel and false claims of Israeli apartheid, well, giving up Gaza didn't end the terrorism and neither will giving up the West Bank, which in International Law, as these terrorist groups continue to refuse to admit to Israel's right to exist in secure borders as an autonomous and sovereign state free from aggression and violence, and as the Palestinians have breached every ceasefire or peace agreement and even former US Pres Bill Clinton said Yasser Arafat was a man who never failed to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace and recognition of Palestinian statehood, we can only say, bring that post to the attention of the Israeli gov't immediately because I'm sure they'll laugh as hard as I am. Also, literati, do read Phyllis Chesler's The New Anti-semitism, written just after 9/11, it shows the link between Israel bashing and the usual bully tactics of the politically correct and usually misguided feministas. The new anti-semitism, according to both Chesler and the Parliamentary report, and Bnai Brith's Annual Audit of Anti Semitic Incidents in Canada, and the US index of global antisemitism and terrorism show theseare linked to disproportionate demonization and attempts to delegitimate Israel and eliminate it from the world's nations. (Cotler said that too). This is the genocidal agenda of lefty feminist and gay peaceniks, who are advocating for a 'binational state of Israel/Palestine' which would eliminate Israel's character as a Jewish state http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Parliamentary_antiSemitism_report_tabled-10473.aspx
more research, toronto on
07/16/11 7:20 PM EST
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NO MORE VERBOSE CRAP
No MORE RESEARCH. NO MORE VERBOSE CRAP. And you fail to mention that there also exist “Religious Jews” who burn down Palestinian villages and withhold vital services to those who don't speak Hebrew with perfect flair. And how are the racist Rabbis who advocate violence towards Arabs, different than the Muslim clerics who advocate violence towards Israelis and Westerners? To me they are equally guilty of inhumanity. You make your arguments sound important with references, but you pick and choose your one sides arguments even from the references you cite. Your arguments, or rather written screaming, is totally one sided highly prejudiced slander. You would be dangerous if you had a gun... You are already dangerous. I hope you are not in charge of anyone's life. You are a verbose pretentious idiot. Just fu*k off !!!
don't-feed-the-crackpots, Toronto Ont
07/16/11 8:21 PM EST
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crackpot - sorry QuAIA lost - go away
QuAIA doesn't mind using lies and attacks on their opponents. I said IN CANADA - I know there have been occasional acts by religious right folks in Israel that are not lawful - they murdered Yitzak Rabin, a peace advocate. But that doesn't take away from the fact that no sane Parliamentarian or civic leader will endorse QUAIA (except Councillor Wong Tam). Even Mario Da Silva said QUAIA's claims are a pack of lies. And we're sorry you're sore losers, but free speech belongs to everyone, and your intimidation tactics won't cut it. QUAIA is a laughingstock and like a case of cockroaches in the Village that moves from building to building. Enjoy your 'success' and see you in court.
more research, toronto on
07/17/11 7:17 AM EST
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Hey, xtra, where's that missing post?
Free speech fans, if you've been following this thread, you'll remember there was a post earlier inviting Ms. Flanders to contact the head of the IDF Military Directorate which has a special unit studying radical left anti-Israel activists like Ms. Flanders and their links to the BDS/boycott movement and the flotilla. Flanders said she could be reached c/o the Flotilla. Now, if the Mossad removed the post because it named the head of that division as a matter of national security, I'm fine with that. But, Flanders said she's in 'Palestine' and was born in Israel and has lived there and knows more than any of us, so if she wanted to prove her arguments and QUAIA's with IDF, it probably would be a local call. I believe IDF headquarters is in Tel Aviv (which has an awesome Pride celebration with no Israelbashers). Also, there may have been an earlier comment suggesting (from a legal perspective) that Flanders and QuAIA are too dumb for words, which I think is fair comment at this point. And, I think that post noted as a matter of free speech and political comment on a matter of public interest that a criminal conviction could impede Flanders' academic career at York University (where she admits on her website she teaches in 'hands on' Dept. of Film and Video as a Ph.D. student), and her mideast travels, as a criminal conviction would impede anyone's academic career (universities have morals clauses) or freedom to travel. It may be that Flanders is being charged too with criminal offences relating to this incident and remember that the Muslim mommy of that anti-Israel bomber of a Hebrew school in Montreal attempted to aid and abet the defendants and and obstruct police, which are also criminal offences, aside from libel, harassment, and intimidation of witnesses or anyone else. So, what's the deal, Mr. Moderator? Fill us in? Who asked that those posts be removed?
watchin' the detectives, toronto on
07/18/11 10:13 AM EST
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Thanks more research
Thanks for explaining further more research. I didn't understand initially Quaia was under investigation. I thought you meant a charge for the banner incident. I agree 100% that by targeting Israels policies in turn Jewish communities around the world will suffer as the association to being Jewish and Israel is synonymous around the world. I do not think the two perspectives can be isolated. Most don't realize the holocaust did not have over night. The German Goverment and other European Countries started years earlier to create myths regarding Jewish people in order to stereotype. This amounted to First marginalization, and allowed the propaganda, to strive. You can hear the Jewish supporters of Quaia echoing that the Jewish community is wealthy, and influential, and right wing. Jen Peto who is a leading activist and works with Quaia states in her thesis, that the Holocaust is used to gain sympathy as an excuse to secure Israel as a Jewish State. This is the most vile, and shameful propaganda against our oppressive history. It was years of wide spread stereotyping of Jews, around religion, and their biblical connection to the land of Israel, and the death of Christ. Anti Semitism is not isolated to skin color, or just a differing religious view. The European Government’s at the time felt Jews were educated, economically secure by working hard, and they were afraid that as a people they were ‘owning’ too much. It took thousands of people to participate in the killings of millions. The atrocities showed that the Jewish people are still scapegoats for the world’s ills in the 20th century. The Jewish History does repeat itself.
Jamie, Toronto ON
07/18/11 12:03 PM EST
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Did Xtra just pull this story?
Hi, I just checked xtra.ca and found this story was no longer a front pager on the home page or Toronto page - what's up? But, they published Elle Flanders' "Driving force for QUAIA' article July 7. Conflict of interest? Anyhoo, in response to crackpot, here's that story about a violent Palestinian murder of an innocent man and wife and their children. No, religious Jews like anyone else are not perfect in Israel but don't wantonly murder Palestinians - there have been cases in the Israeli courts of unlawful acts by them, but in Canada, Jews in support of Israel (religious and not) remain the most law abiding, non violent, educated, progressive, supportive of human rights, philanthropic, professionally distinguished and well organized of any ethnic group in Canada. So, take your 'research' elsewhere, 'cuz we're not playing point counterpoint anymore. Again, we'll see you in court. Ciao for now. Xtra, please hang on to these arguments - free speech is important! Especially if you hate criminals and hate crimes. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4041237,00.html
more research, toronto on
07/18/11 6:10 PM EST
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Here's the Xtra evidence
Rich and readers, here again is the Xtra story on QUAIA's banner drop at Wellesley Subway. Note the posts in real time, as the events and information developed. Xtra was the only media on scene and had advance knowledge of this event. Xtra promoted QUAIA and Flanders and has capitalized on this controversy, which most of us wish would go away. From the posts I've seen so far, most readers support Israel, even if they're not Jewish and are sick of QUAIA's antics. Now, perhaps under influence from Flanders (facing charges for her posts here) or Xtra's editorial board (possibly facing charges like conspiracy to commit indictable offence), the link has disappeared from Xtra's main pages. It may be an editorial decision, now that they have 3 current stories on QuAIA - one here and two in Toronto. Or, are THEY hiding evidence? Are THEY suppressing free speech? QuAIA's bullies have used profanity but not much wit and tried personal attacks - we won't be intimidated but most of us don't bother with Xtra anymore. Now, if this evidence is good enough for police and crown attorneys to lay charges (on presumption that they have a good chance of winning beyond a reasonable doubt), and good enough to be reviewed by Canadian and Israeli government agencies and intelligence agencies who had made public statements that supporters of the Flotilla could be prosecuted, what conclusions do you draw? If anything, I'm sure the pro-Israel folks are grateful for the relative quiet in relation to harassing calls and e-mails by Xtra dropping the story, but its here, and you can see the trajectory of attacking discourse and embrace of lawlessness. Israel and its supporters didn't start this, QUAIA did. In politics, scandals like criminal charges and investigations have ruined many, including Svend Robinson. But you embrace QUAIA. http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/QuAIA_drops_banner_from_Wellesley_subway_station-10428.aspx
more research, Toronto ON
07/24/11 1:19 AM EST
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@ Joanne / more research
Get some help - seriously.
Know1, Toronto Ontario
07/24/11 1:41 AM EST
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