Protesters demand Pride Toronto reverse censorship decision
PRIDE / Organization bans "Israeli apartheid"
Scott Dagostino / National / Tuesday, May 25, 2010
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UPDATE MAY 26 – About 100 gay and lesbian people gathered at the Dundonald St offices of Pride Toronto (PT) on May 25 to protest the organization’s decision to censor the term “Israeli apartheid” from this year’s Pride celebration.

As the crowd chanted “Whose Pride? Our Pride!” and “Resign! Resign! Resign!”  visibly nervous PT board co-chair Genevieve D’Iorio – separated from the protesters by an iron fence and police guard – told media that “complaints of discriminatory and exclusionary messaging” led PT to ban the phrase “Israel apartheid” from the July 4 parade.

“This is a terrible day in Pride’s history,” says Elle Flanders, spokesperson for Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA), the Palestinian rights group so obviously the target of the move. “If we had taken out Totally Naked Toronto Men or Dykes on Bikes, or other people who have offended other people, we wouldn’t have a Pride.”

“We’re more than happy that people come in and march for the rights of queers in Palestine and queers in Israel,” says D’Iorio. “But the reality is that this particular term has been the crux.”

D’Iorio says city and corporate sponsors are threatening to pull funding, and banning the phrase “Israeli apartheid” is the best position PT organizers could take. Pride simply wouldn’t happen, she says, without the city’s financial and in-kind support.

“This decision was long overdue and it’s the right decision,” says lawyer Martin Gladstone. “The broad-based community, virtually all of our political and civic leaders, the sponsors and our stakeholders all think it’s the right decision.”

Gladstone created the anti-QuAIA video Reclaiming Our Pride, and almost singlehandedly led the movement to lobby the city and PT sponsors to kick QuAIA out of the parade.

“Martin Gladstone has been an effective lobbyist, and I doff my hat to him,” says Flanders. “But this whole situation is due to the beef of this one particular right-wing guy with his right-wing politics.... If he’s got something to say, why don’t we get to have something to say?”

Protesters at the Pride Toronto press conference.
(David Walberg photo)
“Nobody’s censoring free speech,” replies Gladstone, who was not at the protest, choosing instead to speak with Xtra later over the phone. “But they have to grow up. Like every other recipient of public money or corporate money, there are compliance issues. Pride has no choice.”

“This isn’t a free speech issue,” Gladstone continues. “They can go anywhere and march, wherever they want, but it’s not what Pride’s sponsors and our stakeholders and our funders sign up for.... They’re hurting our Pride parade.”

Tim McCaskell, a long-time gay community activist and educator who did attend the protest, and who also participated in Toronto’s earliest Pride marches, vehemently disagrees.

“Any kind of human rights violation affects queers directly, and those struggles have always been present at Pride,” he says. 

“If Pepsi can march in Pride, if the Bank of Montreal can march in Pride, if the Canadian fucking military recruitment office can march in Pride, why can’t these queer people with a political agenda – whether you agree with it or not – march in Pride?” says playwright Brad Fraser, spokesman for the newly created Pride Coalition for Free Speech. “Shutting down QuAIA leads to someone else getting shut down next.” 

PT executive director Tracey Sandilands insists that, because of QuAIA’s message, many potential Pride participants “don’t feel welcome because of their faith.” 

“I don’t even know what that means,” says Flanders. “Have they never seen dissent? What is so threatening here, other than a bunch of signs saying, ‘End the Israeli occupation?’“

“We’re 30 percent down on our sponsorship from last year,” says Sandilands. “And many potential sponsors – no, I won’t say who – have said they’re concerned that Pride is getting involved with political issues that we shouldn’t be getting involved in.... We can’t move forward allowing one group with one viewpoint and one particular phrase that everyone finds offensive to the detriment of 20 or 30 other groups who also consider themselves part of our community.” 

“We’re not just some fringe group,” says Flanders. “I was on the board of Pride three years ago.... I was asked to create a human rights contingent and built up the politics of Pride, but simultaneously, Pride was saying, ‘Can you keep it small?’ They want to have a little politics but not so much that it spoils the party.”

PT, she says, represents “a new group of people riding the wave of civil rights that we’ve managed to gain through sweat and labour and activism just like this: noisy people saying, ‘We demand to be heard’ and speaking for those who aren’t heard. Pride has somehow forgotten about that.”

In spite of PT’s decision to censor QuAIA, Sandilands says Pride’s growth from “a little grassroots march” is a great step for global human rights.

“The fact that we are as big as we are gives us the unique opportunity and responsibility to take a stand on issues affecting queer people in other countries and actually be heard, get global media and make a difference,” she says, noting that Pride will focus instead on the many countries that have no queer rights at all.

McCaskell vows that, ban or no, QuAIA’s message will get out at Pride.

“I’ve been arrested before on free speech issues, but I’m willing to be arrested again if that’s what it takes,” he says. “You can be damn sure that we’ll be there.”

Flanders says, “They want to make this all go away, but politics are a part of Pride. It’s us this year; it’ll be somebody else next year.”  

Watch our video report from the protest:



>> Read the Pride Toronto board resolution to disallow the term "Israeli apartheid" (PDF)
 

UPDATE MAY 25

Pride Toronto held a press conference this morning to announce that, following a contentious 4-3 vote by its board last week, the organization intends to ban the use of the term "Israeli apartheid" from any messaging in the Pride parade on July 4. About 80 QuAIA members and supporters turned out to protest the move, chanting "Whose Pride? Our Pride!" and "Resign! Resign! Resign!"

Though Pride Toronto insists the action isn't "directed at any one group," the decision affects the group Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA). Pride Toronto executive director Tracey Sandilands and board co-chairs Genevieve D'lorio and Margaret Ngai told the jeering crowd that the term "Israel apartheid" has led to "complaints of discriminatory and exclusionary messaging."

The issue "has escalated to the point where Pride Toronto's festival is in a state of operational crisis," D'Iorio told the crowd. With the City of Toronto and corporate sponsors threatening to pull funding, she insists, the board has rescued the Pride festival from cancellation.

"They're not going to take away the funding," says playwright Brad Fraser, part of The Pride Coalition for Free Speech. "There's this pervasive fear being built up that bad things are going to happen if you let QuAIA march, but they would be insane to cut funding to the largest festival in Toronto!"

Pride Toronto's decision to censor the messaging may head off the June 14th vote on funding by Toronto City Council, but Fraser says Pride Toronto has made a huge mistake in caving on free speech. "It's not going to be easy for them," he says.

Check back soon for more on this story - including interviews with Pride Toronto organizers and QuAIA activists.



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Reader Comments


 
Pride Toronto Inc. bans lawful political speech
Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) is an LGBT group that is part of the Toronto queer community, that campaigns for queer and other human rights, and that engages in lawful political speech. // There is absolutely no logical, reasonable, or legal justification whatsoever for banning an LGBT group -- or its choice of words -- from Pride. This is censorship, plain and simple -- i.e., disagreement with the applicability of a term that is defined in international law, leading to the banning of that term. // Shame on Pride Toronto for caving into pressures from the Zionist/Israel Lobby, Conservatives/right-wingers, homophobes, and other bigots.
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 2:10 PM EST
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incompetence and more
Pride Toronto should have waited to see what happened at City Hall. It could not have known how it would end up and it is highly unlike that the City would have taken away everything without giving them options. Then, it could at least not have looked so incompetent. That said, I realize that the pro-Israel group and some city counsellors basically blackmailed the board. Finally, if Pride Toronto says that they have been treatened with violence, I am pretty sure it wasn't from QaIA and their supporters. Is the police informed? I want those who treated Pride Toronto with violence prosecuted. This is one really ugly face of the pro-Israel side.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 2:14 PM EST
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Just ONE Day ?
There's 365 days in a year. Why can't 1 (one) day (Pride) be when we can simply enjoy the parade free of ugly Middle Eastern politics ? How would QAIA like it if I marched with a sign reading - STOP USING WOMAN AND CHILDREN TO BLOW THINGS UP - or - STOP KILLING GAY PEOPLE IN PALESTINE ! Honestly, get a life and leave it alone - even if it's just for one day.
Jeff Taylor, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 2:25 PM EST
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Who Cares What City Hall Does
Pride Toronto has once again let down the Gay community. This group as ever right to be in the Parade and in any other events that Pride puts on. Just goes to show that straight people are running pride and telling us gays what we can and can not do.... City Hall does not speak for Toronto Gay Community...The only reason Toronto City Hall is in it at all is for Tourist DOLLARS and nothing more...So how dare they say how we can hold a event... Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) is an LGBT we will march together regardless what Pride Toronto has stated we have a right and they can not stop...I ask all to join and march with them.... Pride Toronto does not speak for us now or in the future we do not recognize you as you have shown that you do not really care about Gays but you care about the all might dollar....
DJ, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 2:25 PM EST
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I side with the Pride committee on this
After watching last years parade I was filled with anger at the anti Israeli protest that was allowed to march. My understanding of Pride is a forum for us to promote and gain visibility for GAY rights. It is not for general statements of political views, there are far more forums for that type of thing than there are for us to gain the recognition of injustice because of sexual orientation. I personally have nothing against anyone wishing to express an opinion on a political matter however to do this in the middle of a Pride parade was sheer nonsense. Israel is practically the only country in that section of the world that does not actively persecute us. If you look at the general ideology of most Muslim states they are very Anti GAY and will imprison or kill us and typically do. Do I need to remind people of Malawi or Iraq and their abominable treatment of our brothers and sisters. Keep your opinions to the venue in which they belong. The pride parade is a celebration of who we are what we have accomplished and where we want to go. It is not for general political statements that do not affect us as a sexual minority community.
Scott, Edmonton Alberta
05/25/10 2:29 PM EST
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Corporate Sponsors
I would really like to know which of Toronto Pride's corporate sponsors have expressed interest in withdrawing support, or if that's Pride-created boogeyman.
Dan, Toronto ON
05/25/10 2:31 PM EST
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Scott's opinion = misinformed, illogical
IN FACT, the only real requirements for participation in Pride are: (1) part or supportive of the LGBT community, (2) law-abiding. QuAIA meets both of these requirements and should, therefore, be permitted to fully participate in Pride. FURTHERMORE, apartheid IS a queer issue. A violation of human rights somewhere is a threat to human rights everywhere. Moreover, apartheid worsens already terrible conditions for LGBT people; how can we expect our LGBT brothers and sisters to achieve equality and liberation when they're trapped behind an apartheid wall and repressed by a colonialist state? Israel, being a country that fuses church and state, is rife with homophobia and violence against LGBT people. Israel, being an apartheid state, does not treat all people equally within the boundaries it controls. In short, Israel is ONE BIG LIE. QuAIA is an LGBT group; QuAIA engages in lawful political speech. QuAIA has every right to fully participate in Pride. And apartheid *is* an LGBT issue, and Israel *is* an apartheid state. See: http://tinyurl.com/iiaasahy
Rick, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 2:39 PM EST
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This is a travesty
It doesn't matter which side of the Israeli Palestinian debate you're on, the fact is that the Pride committee has sided with money over freedom of expression. Shame! Pride IS political, and all the more so when we are under attack by the Harper gov't and right-wing religious fundamentalists. I am shocked and dismayed that the committee caved to the pressure. What will city council want to ban next year?
Val, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 2:59 PM EST
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Whose Rainbow is it anyway?
Yahoo, Yahoo, Yahoo. Total respect for everyone who showed up and told Pride where they could shove their censorship rainbow - it only has one colour and that's green. Don't fuck with this community, because if there is anything we've fought hard for it's free speech and the right to be what we want to be when we want to be...I support QuAIA, but will not get entangled in that debate now...I think you all should just check out their website and make your decisions...While I totally understand that it was QuAIA that brought this whole issue to the foreground, this is a bigger issue - One of censorship and free speech. I know where I stand on that. Respect Pride Coalition, total respect.
roy, toronto ON
05/25/10 3:15 PM EST
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@ Rick is illogical and a censoring people again
again your censoring people who have a different opinion then you and that is also rather undemocratic and Rick your blog is not a source(how many times people tell you this?) since it seem rather bias and seems to be up to the old propaganda he always uses and Rick again your lying, Israel does have a strong LGBT community that also cares about the Rights of the Palestinian brothers and sisters there are many books on this issue about the Israeli LGBT community such as Independence Park: The Lives of Gay Men in Israel, Between Sodom and Eden: A Gay Journey Through Today's Changing Israel, and Brothers and Others in Arms do document the lives and challenges Gay Israelis face and it really no different then what we face here in Canada.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 3:16 PM EST
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Not Political?
Does anyone really think that queer palestinians are ever able to develop a gay rights movement, engage into a debate similar to what we see in many "free" societies around civil rights and liberties while Israeli occupation is not allowing them to go to school. to learn, to breathe to have a normal life and to engage with the rest of the world??? Israeli apartheid IS a gay issue as much anything else that effects our lives as humans who carry multiple identities in every space we move in. At least it is much more of a gay issue than providing prime advertising space in the parade for the beer companies and banks (how are those gay issues?). Pride is trying to white-wash all queers in Toronto and strip us from our history as immigrants and political beings who do not identify solely as "gay". so we can all celebrate the status of queer rights in Canada (horray) and erase the struggles of our LGBT sisters and brothers back home. shame on Pride
Suhail, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 3:39 PM EST
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Reality - Please
@ DJ, have you ever stopped to think that maybe there's MANY gay people out there in the real world that DON'T want this group to march ? Also, you can't have everything both ways. On one hand you want Toronto tax dollars and support in general from City counsel, and yet on the other hand you don't want the City of Toronto to have any requirements as to the use of that City (tax payers) money. Dude, pick a side and stick with it. And to Rick, why don't you fly a friend and yourself over to Palestine, walk hand & hand together down a street and stop a few times and give each other a little kiss on the cheek. Lets see if you make it back to Toronto. I for one, don't want ugly Middle Eastern politics in our Pride parade.
Jeff Taylor, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 3:43 PM EST
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Peter: Easy to refute
Oh boy. He's baaack... Okay, Peter. Let's review the facts. #1, expressing disagreement is not censorship; prohibiting speech is censorship. Need a dictionary? I'll mail you one. #2, I often cite sources; my own commentaries are no exception. That said, you might take another look at my blog posting, Peter: What I've posted is not my own, but rather the research and commentaries of others -- with citations. #3, Israel is far from being a homophobia-free society. See, for example: http://tinyurl.com/25jqp7k & http://tinyurl.com/krpsop -- and, I'll add, Israel's apartheid makes already terrible conditions worse for LGBT people. That's imprisonment in homophobic conditions. Shame on Israel for its lies and crimes against humanity!
Rick, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 3:48 PM EST
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Jeff: Here's reality for you
So, you support censorship, right? Just say it. Heck, if the Zionist/Israel Lobby can say it commends censorship (see: http://tinyurl.com/2fgmzr4), then why can't you? // I'd certainly like to visit Palestine as soon as I am able. Unfortunately, it's unlikely that Israel will permit me to enter in order to see the truth with my own eyes (see: http://tinyurl.com/2ewurzd). Furthermore, I'd also risk being murdered my Israel if I did gain entry (see: http://tinyurl.com/2ewurzd & http://tinyurl.com/7m93). Israel: All lies.
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 3:57 PM EST
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Money talks and BS doesn't walk at Pride this year
Here's one, Pride needs money from the City. They also need sponsors. There were no contributing sponsors other than the 2 premier ones listed until Pride made the announcement. Now there are 6 and they wouldn't be there if QuAIA were. Almost half the Councillors have expressly said they would support Mammiloti's motion and the others were non-committal, but all it would have taken was 3 out of that 24 to kill city funding for Pride. Pride is not an absolute free speech rally. How come NAMBLA isn't there anymore, then? This is not speakers corner, it's a cellebration of Gay Pride. A concept seemingly lost on a group that is expressing solidarity with homophobes and state-sanctioned murderers of gays in Gaza. QuAIA showed themselves as quite the little group of hypocrites today. Shouting down the Pride organizers and not letting them talk, while screaming about how QuAIA was being censored and denied free speech. The funny thing is, QuAIA people are too stupid to get the irony.
Scott, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 4:01 PM EST
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Yes! More Reality! More!
If "reality" is censoring legitimate, albeit uncomfortable speech from the Pride Parade and unacceptable to MANY gays, then let's start moving on other projects asap! MANY gays would rather not see TNT MEN march in the Parade: let's ban them! MANY gays don't want to see the "Christian" Fundamentalist Conservative Party march in the Parade: Ban 'em! "Freaky" drag queens and "terrible" leatherfolk: Ban, ban! Ban anything that makes all those "respectable" faggots uncomfortable!
Dan, Toronto ON
05/25/10 4:04 PM EST
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Israel is an Apartheid State
http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Document-3230.phtml From the Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa
J Roman, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 4:09 PM EST
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@Funny Rick
I never said Israel is not a perfect country and I do think what they do to the Palestinians is a crime but also the Palestinians are also no victim they have a lot of blood on their hands too or was it the fact that there are books on this is something you don't like? I would suggest you read them they do talk a lot what LGBT face in Israel and in the Palestinian Territories unless you are hiding something? Also the Middle East is rather homophobic as a whole but you might think that I have a Zionist mind for saying that but it is the reality in the Middle East, the whole region is rather homophobic. I wonder why many Middle Eastern Gays come here for example and bag Immigration department not to send them back when they face deportation for example. Funny Canada isn't even close to being homophobia-free society either but the next time I read about Gay Bashing on Xtra I'm reminded of this or other Crimes committed against the LGBT community here in Ontario or anywhere in Canada and funny the conditions for these attacks were created here so that homophobic conditions must of been created by the Canadian homophobic attitudes and by our culture or even the many homophobic religions we have in our country. Rick funny about the Tel Aviv attack I think we should be in solidarity with Israeli LGBT community and Rick funny how everyone on Israeli Society considered that a crime including the current PM and President. Read your link (http://tinyurl.com/krpsop ) clear states this. Also of course our Palestinian brothers and sisters since their democratically elected governments Hamas or the Palestinian National Authority seems to care less about their rights in their own society since they are considered their government and rights issues is something they might want to bring up with them after all they are democratically elected.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 4:31 PM EST
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Scott: On the side of censorship
Stand and be counter, people. Do you support censorship, or do support freedom of expression including lawful political speech? Scott, Jeff, & Peter support censorship and therefore oppose democracy. Who else is with them?
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 4:32 PM EST
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Freaky drag queens??
Who you calling freaky!? Drag queens and leather folk and the bestest people. It's the nasty, mean-spirited bigots that lie about Israel, the only place in the middle east where drag queens and leather folk are safe to be out, that I don't like. You QuAIA folk will be happy to know you use exactly the same language about Israel that neo-nazis use. Between them and the Islamists who want to kill people just for being queer, QuAIA sure keeps some great company.
Slappy, toronto Ont
05/25/10 4:34 PM EST
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Israeli apartheid: One step closer to Nazi Germany
Slappy, honey, you've heard of the Warsaw Ghetto, have you (http://tinyurl.com/5l769j)? That was ethnic separation, just like Israel's apartheid. As Michael Ignatieff said, "When I looked down at the West Bank, at the settlements like Crusader forts occupying the high ground, at the Israeli security cordon along the Jordan river closing off the Palestinian lands from Jordan, I knew I was not looking down at a state or the beginnings of one, but at a Bantustan, one of those pseudo-states created in the dying years of apartheid to keep the African population under control." Israel's apartheid is just one more step towards Nazi-style genocide. And this Holocaust survivor agrees: http://tinyurl.com/yecolvq
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 4:41 PM EST
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Oy Vey
There was a time when lots of people wouldn't have wanted queers to march or tax dollars to go to anything to do with queer and trans events/issues. It saddens me that you have people defending Israel and people defending free speech. Whether you're for what the Israeli state is doing now or not, I can't believe that people would want to quash free speech and shame on anyone who does...Fear is what drives you and part of me understands that, but you have nothing to fear but fear itself and I can assure you if any anti-semetism ever came about at Pride, the same people that are calling for QuAIA's inclusion would be on your side as well. Grow up, avoid QuAIA if it offends you so, but stand up for Free Speech or this party will soon be over.
roy, toronto ON
05/25/10 4:41 PM EST
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Freudian slip
And by "stand and be counter," I of course meant "[s]tand and be counted." :-)
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 4:43 PM EST
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Leftists hate freedom
Censorship is always wrong. As amusing as it is to see one leftist group oppressing another, the willfully ignorant pro-islamification freaks should be allowed to express themselves. Israel is a beacon of hope in a medieval region.
ron, Vancouver Bc
05/25/10 4:43 PM EST
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Warsaw Ghetto???
Israel is just like Nazi Germany with the Warsaw Ghetto??? On what planet?? You don't sound like someone who is very well informed about either what is happening in Palestine OR what happened in the Warsaw Ghetto. The systematic and complete anhiliation of people because of their race? There seem to be a lot of Palestinians around for that to be happening. And there seem to be a lot of Muslims in Israel who get to vote, have free speech and are members of parliament there. Doesn't sound too much like the nazis I've heard about. But don't let the facts get in the way of your arguement, honey. I've never met anyone in QuAIA who had that problem, so why should you be the first?
Slappy, Toronto Ont
05/25/10 4:52 PM EST
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@Rick this is from Michael Ignatieff in 2010
Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff regarding Israeli Apartheid Week OTTAWA - Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff “On university campuses across the country this week, Israeli Apartheid Week will once again attempt to demonize and undermine the legitimacy of the Jewish state. It is part of a global campaign of calls for divestment, boycotts and proclamations, and it should be condemned unequivocally and absolutely. Apartheid is defined, in international law, as a crime against humanity. Israeli Apartheid Week is a deliberate attempt to portray the Jewish state as criminal. The activities planned for the week will single out Jewish and Israeli students. They will be made to feel ostracized and even physically threatened in the very place where freedom should be paramount -- on a university campus. Let us be clear: criticism of Israeli government policy is legitimate. Wholesale condemnation of the State of Israel and the Jewish people is not legitimate. Not now, not ever. The very premise of Israeli Apartheid Week runs counter to our shared values of mutual respect and tolerance, regardless of nationality, race or creed. It is an attempt to heighten the tensions in our communities around the tragic conflict in the Middle East. On behalf of the Liberal party of Canada and the Parliamentary caucus, I urge all Canadians to join with us in condemning Israeli Apartheid Week, and to reject, in principle, all forms of anti-Semitism, racism and intolerance, both within this country and around the world.” (http://www.liberal.ca/en/newsroom/media-releases/17617_statement-by-liberal-leader-michael-ignatieff-regarding-israeli-apartheid-week)
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 4:54 PM EST
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Kulanu/Hillel
When Kulanu/Hillel marches in the parade, will the group be supporting gay rights or Israel? Based on the photos of last year's Pride parade, I suggest that the group will be supporting Israel first. When party politicians participate, will they be promoting gay rights or their political parties? I suggest the latter.
SD, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 4:57 PM EST
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Compare Israel & Nazi Germany -- with photos
Slappy, sweetie, I'll stick to the evidence. Take a look-see for yourself: http://tinyurl.com/2dujs2a -- and consider the opinion of yet another Holocaust survivor: http://tinyurl.com/27g24sd
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 5:15 PM EST
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You call those pictures??
Ricky, I think i like you. You're wrong about everything, but you're passionate, and I like passion in a man. But those photos have been taken in entirely different contexts. You show charred dead bodies from a Nazi crematorium and you show charred dead bodies from an air raid and they are both are going to look the same. It down't mean they are the due to similar circumstances or rationales. That you would even have to resort to that kind of attempted trickery shows how vapid your arguement is. (Don't worry, I like dumb men too as long as they're cute..and bottoms!)
Slappy, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 5:25 PM EST
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@ Rick
really so again that could be said about any war zone, , look the same but I guess Russia is not Nazi Germany or Apartheid South Africa wait Chechnya in Pictures looks the same as the Nazi's too http://www.russian-terror-in--chechnya.blogspot.com/
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 5:27 PM EST
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Circumstances and rationales
Oh, Slappy, you want circumstances and rationales? Okay. Then I recommend you begin with Prof. Dr. Ilan Pappe's book, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" (http://tinyurl.com/y2fxw67). Then move to Jimmy Carter's "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" (http://tinyurl.com/2urpgv). Dr. Norman Finkelstein, esteemed scholar and son of Holocaust survivors, has also written oodles (http://tinyurl.com/8g47mf). And, of course, we couldn't leave out Prof. Dr. Chomsky (http://tinyurl.com/4u8oc). The list goes on and on. So, how's that for "vapid"? Want more? Check out Jewish Voice for Peace's reading list at: http://tinyurl.com/ydaohvt
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 5:33 PM EST
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Sarcasm, Slappy, sarcasm
That was sarcasm, you dizzy goof. If you cannot draw the parallel that censoring one unpopular group won't embolden others to censor other group's deemed to be "offensive" by some vocal lobby group, then you're stupid as well as dizzy. For me, I'll stick to independant media and heed the opinions of Bishop Desmond Tutu: you know, someone who lived in an apartheid regime and declared Israel and Apartheid state in 2002.
Dan, Toronto ON
05/25/10 5:37 PM EST
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On Ignatieff's "flip-flop"
I guess readers must decide for themselves. Who do you trust more: Ignatieff, professor and director of Harvard University's Carr Center for Human Rights Policy OR Ignatieff, politician and leader of the Liberal Party? Personally, something tells me that, as a wannabe Prime Minister, Ignatieff is much less immune to the aggressive tactics of the Zionist/Israel Lobby.
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 5:38 PM EST
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Noam Finklestein? You forgot Naomi Klein!
Ricky!! Chomsky! Finkelstein! The usual polemicists. You can find thousands who say the opposite. And Jimmy carter, from what I understand, retracted what he said about Israel and apartheid, so maybe you should take him off your list. So how does this work. You stack up a bunch of books from the Marxist-Leninists of yesteryear, and I stack up a bunch from the mainstream, and whoever has the biggest stack wins? I'd probably win that contest, but even so, that ain't how it should work.
Slappy, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 5:41 PM EST
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@Rick
I thought this was all about the rights of Gay Palestinians and Jimmy Carter (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/12/jimmy_carter_apologizes_for_cr.html) I think he had a change of heart too and Rick funny about Ilan Pappe book the same can be said about Ontario natives and how Europeans took there land and such and I do agree with Ilan Pappe but the same happened here and I think there is no Pride in what he did to our Native people or how they are treated and funny how he is Israeli and senior lecturer at Haifa University you have to boycott him too and his work
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 5:42 PM EST
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two sides ?
I am neither pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, yet is seems everyone who is commenting has a “side”. Pride was unfairly put into this position by getting dragging into Politics that are so old that the people fighting for them weren’t alive when they started. For the people alive today, both sides are wrong, both sides have committed acts that are truly shameful in history, and nothing will change as long as we keep sitting here thinking that there are only two sides and forget that there are individual people involved here that grew up only knowing this conflict. As long as those people hang on to the hate they learned growing up, there will always be hate in this world. Why is the group not called “Queers for the freedom of Palestinians”? Such a name seems to speak to the supposed core value of the group. The answer IMHO, it wasn’t controversial enough to get attention. It doesn’t motivate the hate that people grew up learning. I do not disagree with the main position they have of fighting for freedom of a people who see very little of it. I do disagree with using hate to fight hate. I found that the website of QuAIA dedicates more words to justifying why Israel is bad (some of which ignore historically accepted facts by looking at one side only) than it does actually suggesting ways people can influence change for the better. Their name was chosen because they couldn’t make enough of a public point with their name without saying all of Israel and its people are the enemy. It uses the same paint brush that gets used when all terrorists are called Muslim extremists. The most frustrating part about seeing these conversations going on is both sides ignore the other side and don’t even notice when the use the exact same argument against each other. All that said, does anyone notice how quick the conversation turned to Israel vs. Palestine and very little is being said about the actual handling of the matter?
Jason, Ottawa ON
05/25/10 5:49 PM EST
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@ Rick is illogical
I guess since then Ignatieff(in 2010), and had a change a heart and so has Jimmy Carter or is it that you don't like that they changed their minds since you can't copy and paste these quotes from your blog and again go on a propaganda campaign funny the Israel Lobby does the same funny how you act just like them and censor people like them. Maybe a match made in heaven
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 5:50 PM EST
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Peter: Missing all the facts (and logic), as usual
Jimmy Carter didn't apologize for using the word "apartheid." He didn't even really "apologize." He just said "we must not permit criticisms for improvement to stigmatize Israel." And he probably said it because, at the time, his grandson was running for a Georgia state senate seat. As for Native people, I support their struggle against oppression, too -- just as I support the struggle of the Palestinians against Israel's apartheid and continued ethnic cleansing. What's your point? It is possible, you know, to support more than one struggle simultaneously. A human rights violation anywhere is a threat to human rights everywhere. As for Ilan Pappe, if you bothered to verify anything you would know that he left the University of Haifa in 2007, and he is now at the University of Exeter. He left Israel because he was basically harassed for speaking the truth -- in the same way that Israel denied entry of Dr. Finkelstein and Dr. Chomsky. You see, Israel is not a real democracy: It seeks to block and prohibit criticism and freedom of expression. Just like you.
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 5:50 PM EST
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The Committee could have done better
The Pride Committee should have taken themselves out of the debate. There were a number of avenues available to the committee such as calling for the City solicitor to provide clarification on the antidiscrimination policy and to confirm if a protest can be found in violation of that policy (if so should all protests be shut down in Toronto)? The City pays for protests all the time in terms of Police resources, barriers, etc. so I do not see how the saber rattling of a few councilors was able to scare the Pride committee the way it did. The City solicitor could have ended up telling council that the motion may not have stood up to a court challenge (something the gets council backing down quickly off any issue). Even if the City and some Corporate sponsors withdrew funding, than so what?! Pride isn’t just about a party and the committee forgot that today. The committee lost faith in the focus and drive our committee used to have. If this issue came up 10 years ago, there would not have been a person on the committee that would have questioned the fact that Toronto’s downtown will be shut down for Pride, with or without government permission. While I do not agree with spreading hate through free speech, the damage done by loosing free speech is so much worse. QuAIA has not crossed the line and does not promote violents. They are fighting for the rights of an oppressed group and while I disagree with their approach and one-sidedness (forgetting that there are Jewish people who do support the ideal of equality), fighting oppression is what started Pride in the first place. I think the community should write Pride to remind them that no censorship of any type should be part of the organization of Pride and if the government doesn’t like it, than the party goes back to being a protest. I’d make the trip from Ottawa to attend if that was the fight that was taking place! Those Corporate dollars are there because the people are there.
Jason, Ottawa ON
05/25/10 5:51 PM EST
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QuAIA a Harper conspiracy??
What really bugs me is that QuAIA have managed to do something to our community that Stevie Harper and his gang of backwards hicks could never have dreamed of. They have our community fighting, backbitting and insulting each other and potentially ruining Pride. And Ricky, let me apologize right now for falling into that trap. I don't really think you're dumb. I just think your arguments are a bit disingenuous, but I'm sure motivated by that sexy passion of yours. We should be sticking together as a community. But a lot of us don't like the idea of Pride being used as a platform to express hate for the one Queer-positive country in the middle east and for alienating a lot of the community. There are no end of other places you can do that. Pride doesn't need to be one of them and is the wrong place for it. Canada still has free speech, so don't get too worked up. Go stick your head out your window and shout "Israel is an Apartheid State!" If someone arrests you for that, Ricky, I'll be there with a sign protesting until you're free.
Slappy, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 5:52 PM EST
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It's simple. Censorship: For or Against?
Let's return to the basics. To participate in Pride, a group need only be part or supportive of the LGBT community, and law-abiding. Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) meets all of those requirements; QuAIA is a group of LGBT people who campaign for LGBT and other human rights, and who engage in lawful political speech. To ban the use of particular lawful words -- in this case "Israeli apartheid" -- IS censorship. By definition. Our "official authority" for Pride events banned lawful speech. When an official authority bans lawful speech -- a political opinion -- that's censorship. You don't have to agree with the opinion. Maybe it will offend you. But if you ban it, you're on the side of censorship -- and in opposition to democracy. How will humanity ever determine what's true or what's right if it does not hear different opinions and vibrant debates? Censorship is willful ignorance -- and it has no place in our queer community.
Rick(y), London Ontario
05/25/10 6:00 PM EST
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I side with Pride
How about Queers For Racism, or Queers Against Quebec, or Queers For Toronto Island Airport? Just because these are queer groups doesn't make them acceptable. Gay Pride is about being GAY! Politics has no place in the parade and operational guidelines should say as much. If queers want to make a statement about Isreal -or any thing else - there are venues, newspapers, conferences, etc. Speech is not being hindered here. Diversity not adversity is what we want to celebrate.
Joe Gibbons, Toronto Ont
05/25/10 6:25 PM EST
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@ Rick
funny Rick most people who study this understand that our native peoples they were also forced off their land by a invading settler population from Europe. Are you having a hard time putting two and two together here? does anything sound the same? Funny how Israel was established is the same way this country was established and most do describe the European Colonization of the Americas as a form of ethic cleansing since most of the European Powers wanted this to happen. But all of this started out as the rights of Queer Palestinians then it seems your only blaming Israel for everything. But in 2006 Palestinians elected Hamas in Gaza and Fatah(Palestinian National Authority) I think if this was a rights issue then they should take it up with them, but they seem to care less about this issue.Oddly Israel does have a large LGBT community( you say no) and in one of your links such as the Tel Aviv Club Attack you think its a government attack on that community there. If you read your link it says how everyone including the PM, President and all major political parties including religious ones condemned this attack but since you can't read you think it was attack carried out by the government. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1203767/Police-manhunt-gunman-opened-Tel-Aviv-gay-club-killing-wounding-11.html) or (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/5960400/Police-hunt-gunman-who-attacked-Tel-Aviv-centre-for-homosexuals.html) as Benjamin Netanyahu says about this attack as "I want to condemn the shocking murder," but you keep on saying that was a policy of the Israeli State or a lone gunmen(most likely a nutcase. I really doubt that was caused by the State Policy most likely a crazy nut case and not the state. Please you should read those books I suggested it does give insight into the Israeli LGBT community or what are you hiding? and everything on the internet is not usually true most students of the arts know this.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 6:28 PM EST
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We may have to agree to disagree
I think a lot of us, myself included, may be venting rather than persuading at this point, since no one seems to be moving away from the positions they came here with. Is it that we all have closed minds, are so convinced of our positions that we won't listen to anything that disputes them? I couldn't say. I disagree strongly that Israel practices apartheid, but I respect the rights of people to disagree with me. I don't like censorship, but I don't know if this falls into the category of what Pride is doing, because it is not a public platform for all political speech. It is an event for a not-for-profit group to celebrate the Gay community, and by definition, they have a right to say who can participate. I think you could very easily argue that vilifying a pro-queer country and by doing so, in effect supports anti-queer homophobes like Hamas, which would not really be supportive of the interests of the LGBT community. But there are very obviously different opinions about that. What is definitely true, and anyone who doubts it should talk to the Pride organizers, is that Pride costs money to put on and it was going to lose its city funding if QuAIA were allowed to participate. Ask the organizers what the sponsors were saying. Do you think Pepsi wants to be associated with anything that has an "I hate Israel" contingent? For those who say, screw the city and the sponsors, that's all good and fine. Are you going to put up the hundreds of thousands that they were? It's not 1981 anymore. Pride has grown, evolved and like it or not, become more mainstream. Maybe this means there needs to be another queer event that takes no money from anyone who isn't willing to put up with every and all messages. I think Pride is doing the right thing, for itself, the community, and regarding the issue at hand. That's my say for now - it's a beautiful evening and I'm going to go out and enjoy it. Peace all!
Slappy, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 6:29 PM EST
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No, Joe: you side with Pride, Inc.
(Peter: I'm done responding to you. As usual, you've gone off the deep end and you're totally illogical. Get some rest, would ya?) Joe: How about one set of rules for everyone and permitting lawful political speech? You are factually incorrect; Pride is not just about "being gay." If that's the case, then why are their banks, beer companies, churches, political parties, etc., in the parade? Answer: Because you're wrong. To be in the parade, a group need only be part or supportive of the LGBT community and to be law-abiding. Banning a group, or its choice of words, because of a political disagreement is censorship. Therefore, what you are really arguing for is censorship. That is the central question, here: Do you support censorship, or don't you?
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 6:35 PM EST
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Slappy: Faulty logic, misguided perspective
(1) Just compare Israel's policies and practices with the internationally accepted definition of "apartheid." I'll make the research easy for you. See: http://tinyurl.com/37wn5q8 (2) Pride receives public funding. Pride is an event that happens publicly. Pride Toronto, Inc. is, ostensibly, a public face of the LGBT community. As the official authority and public face overseeing Pride events with public money on public streets, it is banning lawful speech because of political disagreement. When an official/public authority bans words, that's censorship. (3) Israel is hardly "pro-queer." It is a state founded on religion with religious elements that strongly oppose queer rights. It is not a homophobia-free society. And Israel does not extend equality rights to all LGBT people within the boundaries that Israel controls. Personally, I cannot call that "pro-queer." (4) I do not support Hamas or its homophobia. Hamas exists, in large part, because of Israeli apartheid. End apartheid, begin to dismantle Hamas, work towards ending homophobia. Keep apartheid, keep Hamas, guarantee that homophobia is entrenched and that the many LGBT people live in absolute terror every single day. (5) We don't need government or corporate funding to have Pride. The city money, in particular, is a drop in the bucket. I'd rather have free speech than corporate sponsorship. My "mainstream" includes ALL political opinions.
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 6:45 PM EST
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@Rick is illogical you can't read your own link
as usual you're totally illogical by not doing so and they are good historical examples even if you are that blind from it. Read your link that comes from your blog funny how it disproves what you say (http://tinyurl.com/krpsop ) its has lots of Pictures of this attack but read the story and the people condemning the attack such as the ultra-Orthodox Shas party,The mayor of Tel Aviv, Ron Huldai, Opposition leader Tzipi Livni, and Nitzan Horowitz, Israel's only openly gay lawmaker. Illogical? or is it you can't read? and it also illogical by not reading those books about Israeli LGBT Community and the realities they face and you must be lost in your propaganda then, they also talk a lot about the realities of Gay Palestinians too or this must be something you are in denial about is the reality of either Israeli and Palestinian Gays
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 6:52 PM EST
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where can you be out in middle east
Where is the condemnation of every middle east country,other than Isreal, that not only disallows gay pride but some that executes gays for simply being gay.Isreal is the ONLY middle eastern country that you can live as openly gay.Why are you not demonstrating against these counties.
K.R., toronto on
05/25/10 6:54 PM EST
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K.R. wants to know: Why criticize Israel?
ANSWER: As Naomi Klein has written: "Boycott is not a dogma; it is a tactic. The reason the BDS strategy should be tried against Israel is practical: in a country so small and trade-dependent, it could actually work" (see: http://tinyurl.com/7fvjzm). FURTHERMORE: We criticize Israel because everybody already knows that many of the countries surrounding it are not good for human rights. On the other hand, many believe in the myths that Israel is a liberal democracy and a bastion of human rights. It is neither. Israel is not free of homophobia, Israel continues to violate international law, Israel has committed war crimes, Israel is presently committing a crime against humanity -- i.e., apartheid. The world cannot stand by any longer and pretend that Israel is a liberal democracy, or that it is a bastion of freedom, human rights, and queer equality. An apartheid state is not a democracy; it is a human rights violation. Under apartheid, LGBT people suffer immensely. Within the boundaries controlled by Israel, not all queer people have equality rights; there are two sets of rules. One set is for Israeli citizens. The other set -- with far fewer rights -- is for Palestinians. Wake up: That's apartheid.
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 7:02 PM EST
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OK Rick
tell me how this group protesting the Israeli apartheid movement is supportive of our gay rights world wide. Because what you are are saying is completely illogical in itself. You are supporting to the only government in the region that actually doesn't imprison us or kill us in public. How do you justify that? I am very interested in your response. It seems to me that you have embraced an ideology that while probably correct in its interpretation has nothing to do with gay rights in general ...how do you call yourself an activist when the system you are attacking is the one that would protect you ....and probably the only one in that region
Scott, edmonton alberta
05/25/10 7:09 PM EST
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oh rick
Rick my point is why do you single out Israel? Why not demonstrate against other countries that have a POLICY of discriminating against gays Or do you hate Israelis more than you love your Gay brothers and sisters in the middle east.
k.r., toronto on
05/25/10 7:16 PM EST
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Get Your Own Parade!!!
A great way to spoil a good dinner party is to bring up Israel and Palestine. I'm glad QuAIA isn't going to get the chance to spoil my Pride. They can have their freedom of expression at their own damn parade!
Pride Veteran, Toronto ON
05/25/10 7:27 PM EST
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Answers to questions
No sense in re-inventing the wheel. For all of you with questions about QuAIA and how it relates to "being LGBT," I refer you to QuAIA's very on FAQ at: http://queersagainstapartheid.org/faq/
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 7:36 PM EST
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charred bodies
Slappy, Charred bodies are charred bodies... I don't care how you do it! This isn't to make comparisons with the nazis, only to point out that one charred body to me is the same as another charred body and that you would justify charring some bodies over others because of how it was done... well.. I guess it says quite a bit about you. I want it to stop. It seems the pro-Israel group is ok with more charred bodies.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 7:38 PM EST
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Um, Pride is not a dinner party...
Pride is a public event. It happens in public streets with the help of public money. OUR money: Not just "my" money or "your" money. It is an event for the commons, paid for by the commons. Within the commons, freedom of expression -- within existing legal limits -- must prevail. Banning words because of a difference of political opinion is censorship. Censorship hurts us all; it is an affront to democracy. And rest assured, QuAIA *will* be in the parade!
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 7:45 PM EST
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Manipulating a situation
What some of you don't seem to get is that the Pro-Israel group was only able to do this because it is influential. It sufficiently arrogant to think that they can manipulate just about every message out there. It couldn't let our Pride organizers make a decision without trying to manipulate evidence, stalk the forums, push politicians and basically, blackmail Pride Toronto. Every win, however, they claim as a moral victory. They ask parliament to do something about the word apartheid and barely anyone shows up, but rather than conceed that most people think they are insane and abusive, they claim a victory and atribute to parliament a belief system that is only theirs. They couldn't even let the law decide, no, they were going to get it destroyed even if it is perfectly legal. In a society, in a democratic society, that behaviour is unacceptable. It is anti-sociable. Just because so many people are forced to respond to that fanatism, doesn't make you right, and it makes others know, whether they tell you or not. What do you think they think about your little group of fanatics? Anyway, no wonder you don't care for open debate and democracy, you after all, believe Israel is one... so you obviously lacking somewhere. All the brainwashing must have harmed you all.
zezi-b, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 7:46 PM EST
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Rick missed the point
Why do you single out Israel? Answer that.Don't just respond with anti Israel retoric. Reinvent your "wheel" P.S. If you boycott Israel you must give up your cell phone & your computor because they both have Israeli patented components.
kr, toronto ON
05/25/10 7:50 PM EST
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@ Rick and Zezi
You both sound like the Israel Lobby here since you seem to be a propaganda campaign on who is more the victim here and both seem to use human suffering to advance their political cause. But the Israel Lobby uses the Holocaust but I see Rick is doing the same and his Yes man Zezi I wonder is this a match made in heaven since you do use the same cards as the Israel Lobby does
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 7:51 PM EST
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Wrong decision
I don't fuck about Queers Against Whatever, but this is BULLSHIT! Gay people have been the victims of censorship for centuries. It's ridiculous and shameful that Pride is now in the business of censoring.
Paul, Toronto On
05/25/10 7:52 PM EST
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Can't see the trees from the forest
The ideology of activism astounds me sometimes. Instead of focusing on the issue where the “activists” could actually accomplish change (i.e. how the Pride Committee is handling the debate over censorship vs free speech in relation to Pride), the entire effort of conversation focuses on an issue that I highly doubt anyone reading these comments will be able to influence (the activities of the state of Israel). I’m not saying drop the larger issue because there are definitely wrongs on all sides that need to be fought. What I do suggest to any activist that you cut down a forest first by cutting down your first tree (environmentally friendly logging only please). The same applies to activism. It is effective when taken one issue at a time and bring focus on the wrongs of that issue. If Pride received a focused censorship is wrong message and QuAIA supporters focused on the censorship issue alone right now, you may accomplish something. For those who would rather make the issue about the state of Israel, all that happens is the forest of issues and arguments come forward and that forest clouds up the issue at hand and you end up with a bunch of people trying to take on the entire forest (getting no where) and no one cutting down the trees that actually accomplish the change. I love activism when it comes from the right place and actually has logical thought put into it (not just theory academia thought, real world accomplish something thought). To everyone that has dropped the conversation of censorship out of their replies, I think you are all letting Pride off the hook by getting distracted by a divisive issue that will only result in your goals of something different never coming to fruition. For those who want change, write Pride to tell them why censorship has no place in Pride.
Jason, Ottawa ON
05/25/10 7:57 PM EST
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To K.R. & Scott
(1) I, along with QuAIA, condemn all human rights violations, and love all humans equally. This is not about preferring some categories of humans over others. It's about demanding universal human rights for all, and about exposing lies and violations. (2) Israel also has a policy of discriminating against gays. In Israel/Palestine, equality rights are granted only to some people. Palestinian LGBT people do not enjoy equality rights because of Israeli apartheid. (3) Israel tries to cover-up its human rights violations by promoting its "gay rights"; but this is distortion of the truth, and it's offensive to mask human rights violations by pretending to be a bastion of gay liberation. (4) Apartheid doesn't eliminate homophobia; it merely imprisons and entrenches it, and leaves our LGBT brothers and sisters to live in daily terror. End apartheid to support queer liberation!
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 8:00 PM EST
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QuAIA's activism is an international movement
Jason: Maybe you don't read the news, but QuAIA's activism is hardly limited to "academia." See, for example: http://tinyurl.com/33a5out
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 8:04 PM EST
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before so called apartied
So I suppose gays in Palestine had parades before your so called apartheid existed. So Israel allows Israel gays to have a parade but not Palestinians. Rick you miss the point. Why do you single out Israel. You look through a windoe of anti Israel not one of pro gay rights. Our dialogue is over
k.r., toronto on
05/25/10 8:19 PM EST
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K.R.: Full of red herring arguments
You just keep hurling arguments that are logical fallacies, as they do not address the criticism directly, but I'll humour you, anyway. Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestine, illegal occupation, and apartheid all began in 1947. As far as I know, there were no Pride parades -- anywhere -- in 1947. As for your question, I have already answered it repeatedly. I focus upon Israel because it lies about its human rights violations, because it uses queer rights/struggle as a cover for those violations, and because, in Canada, it is possible to have a real effect upon Israeli policy. Governments around the world already know about the human rights problems in the countries you've listed. It's time they turn their attention to Israel and its propaganda.
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 8:23 PM EST
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Rick you just gave the solution to all this
So Rick go to Gaza if you really care and get on that Aid convoy and have Pride Day there in Gaza, the problem is solved and what is stopping you?(I can only guess why not) If this is a international movement then join them and go. Also the US cover up its human rights violations too they just call it "spreading democracy" or spreading "freedom." I believe in any war they have ever been in since the 1950s they have said this, even when the people they have put into power were not even democratic themselves but you will just ignore this but you did solve this problem
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 8:23 PM EST
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Peter
Peter, You have proven time and time again that whatever you do, you call someone else. You see Peter, I have morals, whether Israel was full of Jewish people, Christians, Muslims, Bhuddists, I would think that they are acting criminally. In fact, it is horrendous and it is done as if it was nothing, as if it ok, while at the same time doing all that is possible to prevent peace. My position is non-racist and peace seeking, the pro-Israel group is defending Israel because Israel represent, to them, jews like them (they tend to ignore jews that aren't like them) and it has done so much to prevent peace. See, that is pretty racist Peter. It isn't because the palestinians want to kill them, but because they want to wait it out to get as much land as possible. People mention texas all the time, the pro-Israel side, but I don't believe that the US annexed the space and kicked out all its inhabitants because it wanted to have a white-only country. That would be racist. Waiting it out so as to push the palestians (to where btw?) so that you can Jewish only settlements is racist, racist and racist. See Peter, I am very different than the Israeli lobby. I am neither Jewish, nor Muslim. To me this is a moral issue, not an issue of protecting my people from criticism and letting them do whatever they want to another people.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 8:30 PM EST
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Rick
Just give us evidence of Gay Pride in the British Mandate of Palestine before 1947 since anything you are saying as you say "You just keep hurling arguments that are logical fallacies", evidence of Gay Pride in Palestine before 1947 or Gay Rights to that matter in the region. Can You?
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 8:31 PM EST
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Whether or not it's Apartheid
k.r. - duh, the position is anti-Israel because of that state's actions. It's completely irrelevant what the policy is in the surrounding nations: that's a separate discussion. Even that is not the point here. The point is that a group is being censored for it's completely legal speech. The strength of our nation is supposed to be that we can air different opinions: that Pride TO and the City of Toronto is bowing to political pressure from what one can only assume are right wing, pro Israel lobbyists is DISGUSTING. The incredibly ironic thing here is that if the same right wing, pro Israel lobbyists had let this fringe group alone, NO ONE would be discussing this. Instead, QuAIA has reached a broader audience then they could ever have otherwise. Finally: CENSORSHIP IS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC, ANTI-CANADIAN AND ANTI-PRIDE. Shame on the City, shame on Pride.
Dan, Toronto ON
05/25/10 8:38 PM EST
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with questions like that peter
You ask if there were gay rights in the British Mandate. You what is funny, there is this jewish gay academic who claims than in muslim spain, gays just did whatever they wanted... I am serious. I think he is probably wrong and his research isn't very clear, lack of citations and the like. But, to your question to Rick for second, where there gay rights anywhere at the time? Certainly not here. What is your point? I still remember how you told us you had an MA in history. I think you don't realize that they basically give those away. You can get a PhD and be terribly illogical, have terrible research skills, etc, but an MA, and you are living proof, well... that easy to get eh? I guess you won't see me bragging about it anymore. You make no sense Peter. It is as if things just bypass you and you take mismatched things and try to make an argument out of it.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 8:47 PM EST
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@ Zezi
Funny, I have never defended Israel here and again you say that to anyone who disagrees on a certain website they say they will have a Zionist Mind(ring any bells) and look for certain three points? and I do understand that is use to put down any opposition you may face and to censor people you don't agree with( when they are good comparisons from history here in North America even if you are blind from this) and Zezi funny how you do act like it since you and the Israel Lobby uses the same cards and are very blinded from this too.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 8:50 PM EST
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Duh Dan
My point has always been why are you singling out Israel and ignoring all the other anti gay policies in the world. Take this issue to the Israeli consulate. Pride should be about supporting gays not about bashing one country and ignoring the gay bashing of so many countries around the world
K.R., Toronto ON
05/25/10 8:53 PM EST
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K.R.: Zionist
K.R. is simply singing from the Zionist songbook. "Why are you singling out Israel?" "What about these other countries?" Blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda. Same old, same old. Rather than respond directly to the worldwide and escalating criticisms of Israel's crimes, just pose all kinds of red-herring questions. Just like B'nai Brith, CJC, etc. YAWN.
Rick, London Ontario
05/25/10 9:00 PM EST
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What are you doing Peter?
If you are not trying to defend Israel, what are you doing? Just because you don't say that they are great doesn't mean you are not defending it. What you are trying to do is silence critics of Israel which to me means that you are defending Israel. You are not indifferent, you certainly want to stop people from criticizing Israel. But, why don't you tell us Peter, what do you think of what Israel did in Lebanon? What do you think of what it did in the offensive in Gaza? What do you think of the blockade? What do you think of the settlements? Either you are not interested in defending Israel, and then why the hell are you here, or you are defending Israel by supporting shutting down their critics. You are completely illogical Peter. You make no sense.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 9:02 PM EST
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@ Zezi
What Israel does to the Palestinians is a crime. I'm not question this; also the Palestinians don't have clean hands either but its funny how you always say that Israel does not have a LGBT community or does not even give a dam about Gay Rights. They do, unlike Hamas or the Palestinian National Authority who are the governing body of the Palestinian People. They seem to care less about this issue about equality for Gay Palestinians as the democratically elected government they should take up this issue. I'm Also fail to see how Israel is even Apartheid, since Russia, China, and Sudan does the same.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 9:14 PM EST
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never said that...
I never said that Israel didn't have a gay community, of course it does, I even put a link in one of these discussion of a bunch of them supporting QaIA. As for Israel as a whole carign about homosexuals, you must kidding. Do you remember when they had pride in Jerusalem? There were riots! I think, and QaIA agrees, that the Israeli government is trying to show itself as progressive through us. This doesn't mean that there aren't some who care about jewish gay people. I don't like Hamas but I don't think they are going out of their way to persecute homosexuals either. I also think that Hamas would never have been were it not for Israel. I think you need democracy and peace to move ahead in gay rights. I think that palestinian gays are getting killed like other palestinians because of Israel and that Israel seeks to dispossess them regardless of sexual orientation. Which means they are looking to disposess gay palestinians along with other palestinians.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 9:34 PM EST
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@ Zezi
That's something we call Homophobia it happens in all countries including Canada and yes I did read about what happened in Jerusalem and yes this was really sick and Israeli authorities did something about it like put that nut case in jail. but this does happens in other countries I believe this might enlighten you (http://biggaymovie.com/films/beyond-gay/trailer/) if you have not seen it and guess what Al Qaeda is in the same boat as Hamas or today's terrorism would not exist if the United States did not care so much about the Status Quo and most likely would not exist if the United States was not created just like Hamas. Israel does have the right to exist as any country in the world and the Palestinians do deserve a state and there are peace talks taken place currently, but it does take time for these talks to happen and saying who playing who the real victim is something both sides use all the time and is something both sides seem to have in common and also labeling a country Apartheid is not going to make it anymore easier since other countries do the same and they don't get labeled that for their human right violations or even Homophobia
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 9:55 PM EST
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in response
The thing is Peter I want gay rights in Palestine and I don't see how the issue of gay rights in the occupied territories should prevent us from wanting to stop Israel's criminal activities in the occupied territories. I don't see why one things prevents me from being openly against the other. If Lebanon can have an out queer organization, I guess there is hope for the Middle East. I think the more war there is, the more the religious fanatics in the Middle East gain ground. Now, I agree, Israel has a right to exist just as much as any other country has a right to exist. However, for no country is there an inherent right to exist. These are political entities and all the ones we live in the americas are the result of colonization. That said, I am quite happy with a fair, in equal ground, two-state solution. I don't think Israel wants that either. Look Obama who started with force about these peace negotiations seems to be giving up at the moment because the Israeli government will simply not stop building outside of its territories. Israel does not bargain in good faith. One peace negotiation after another down the drain. I want results now. I want Israel to return to the 1967 borders now. Meanwhile, it is apartheid to control the borders of another people. This puts them effectively under Israeli governance even though they are not full citizens of Israel. So it is apartheid. And, what do you care what it is called? Until Israel starts honestly seeking peace and not just saying it wants it and doing everything to avert it, I am going to support boycotts. Something has to put pressure on them to finally want peace.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 10:14 PM EST
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@ Zezi
Since that Movie does talk about the Politics of Pride but it also shows what happens in other countries such as Russia, Poland, Serbia, but again you just say this only happens in Israel, I can only wonder what happens under Hamas? or if any before 1947.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 10:14 PM EST
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you don't seem to get it Peter
I never said it only in Israel, I said that like Russia, I would hardly say that Israelis are pro-queer. AND that whether they are or not is irrelevant to the issue of Palestine. This is what I mean with you making no sense or being uncapable of sticking to the subject. I know that Israel could be way worse but that isn't an excuse for what they do to palestinians, gay and straight. Is that clear enough?
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 10:24 PM EST
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Yes, duh K.R
So, in order to criticize Israel you must preface it with critiques of every other country? That's incredibly stupid. It's also besides the point. Get it? WHAT ISRAEL DOES OR DOES NOT DO TO PALESTINIANS (GAY AND STRAIGHT) IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. The point here is that a very conservative, pro-Israel lobby has (apparently) successfully denied a group of LGBT citizens from sharing a completely legal, legitimate message at a political parade. Censorship of legitimate speech is simply not acceptable in Canada. Here in Canada, a land that purports to be free and democratic, we are allowing one group of people to deny another group of people their rights to express their legal viewpoint. That's wrong, and Pride and the City should be ashamed and brought to task for their actions.
Dan, Toronto ON
05/25/10 10:26 PM EST
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Duh Dan
No Dah Dan You miss the point Gay pride is about just that. You may choose to demonstrate against Israel. At no time have I denied you that right. What I'm saying is that gay pride is not the place. This has become a debate about the Israeli/ Palestinian issue.Should Jews use the parade to demonstrate against the atrocities that they have indured. Should every group that has a complaint use our parade to to politicize the day. This is a day to celebrate being gay and to support gays around the world.I have been to Pride in Israel and it is a wonderful celebration.Interesting dont you think. No signs of anti-palestine was evident.Try to have a good and not an angry pride day.
K.R., Toronto ON
05/25/10 11:05 PM EST
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@ Zezi at least there is common ground here
The historical comparisons are relevant such as what happened to our Native People is happening to the Palestinians and I'm not questioning this because it is .The blame who did what or who is the victim can go on either side and is something we can't to get around since both sides do blame each other for starting this this conflict and even the mess here in Toronto. (hard to explain on a comment board in less then 2000 characters)I do support your right to free speech I do, it not easy for Pride to balance this a hard and hot issue when money involved and all the really Anti-Gay people got on this issue made it harder . I think we do need a Queer group for Middle Eastern Peace but I think to many people are just to divided on the blame game to make this happen since we can't bring either side together in a solidarity on this issue. But the Palestinians do need a state along with the Israel has the right to exist at least there is some common ground here.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/25/10 11:06 PM EST
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Can we walk and chew gum at the same time
I am against both the Israelie Aparthied and the horrifying homophobia of the Hamas and Islamic militant groups. I am fine with protesting BOTH in pride, are you
Casey Yau, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 11:10 PM EST
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So facts are debatable now
Let me get this straight, is Peter saying that it is debatable to state Israel is an Aparthied State ? Is Israel building illegal settlement on lands internationally recognized by Palestininans or is it not ? Was President Obama lying when he got angered over Israel for permitting illegal settlements in East Jersuelam? Is it really debatable that Israel is not building separate road and land use for Israelies only and bulldozing the homes of Palestininans to make ways for Israelie settlements ? Its not a debate! Its hilarious that some people are claiming that FACTS can be debated. I guess that is why they got so scared of having their country being described as an Aparthied.
Straight, Toronto Ontario
05/25/10 11:21 PM EST
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@ Stright
Again this does happen in other parts of the Middle East can a non Muslim visit Mecca without coming across Muslim only roads? or in Saudi Arabia can non Muslims hold citizenship? or be openly Gay? and Apartheid is racial segregation unless we still think Jews are a race and not a religion like the old National Socialist Germany did interesting and again it even happened here in the Americas is happening oddly that so many people are blinded by this and I be reminded of this when this happens in Caledonia again over building houses
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/26/10 12:00 AM EST
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@ Stright
In 1994 when Israel and Jordan sign a peace treaty why did Jordan give up territorial claim to the West Bank? and in 1979 Egypt gave up territorial claim to Gaza and oddly neither party allowed Palestinians build a state while under there control and in 1994 and 1979 Israel was willing to return the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt but both decline and both could have help to build a Palestinian State this is a good question also since either Jordan or Egypt had also little interest in building a Palestinian State . They do need one and Egypt or Jordan did little either. and this is a rather interesting part that everyone leaves out.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/26/10 12:33 AM EST
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1950-2010: The result of 1947-1949
Before Peter tries to muddy the waters with random historical claims, allow me to provide some important references. To understand the last six decades of the history of Israel/Palestine, one must start with 1947-1949. That is the period during which the State of Israel was established -- as a colonial-settler state with the blessing/backing of the UK and the USA (because of its imperialist interests in the Middle East). The best scholarly account of the 1947-1949 period is Dr. Ilan Pappe's book, "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" (2006). For an excellent summary, see: http://tinyurl.com/y2fxw67 . Another great account of the roots of the "conflict" is a speech by Dr. Norman Finkelstein available at: http://tinyurl.com/8g47mf . For a full multi-decade historical account, see Dr. Avi Shlaim's book, "Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World" (2000). Pappe, Finkelstein, and Shlaim are all esteemed Jewish scholars. Additional readings, suggested by USA-based Jewish Voice for Peace, are available at: http://tinyurl.com/ydaohvt . Knowledge is power. To understand Israel/Palestine, one must begin with the 1947-1949 period. It is that period -- including what the Palestinians call "Nakba" (http://tinyurl.com/23z754y) -- that set into motion the next six decades of senseless violence. You cannot simply seize the homeland of others, drive them off of it, push them into destitution and terror, and expect them to sit idly by.
Rick, London Ontario
05/26/10 3:48 AM EST
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Christians screw everything up
If anything, the psychotic condition known as Christianity imparted to Western civilization the view of the Jews as a group of people (first religious, later ethnoracial) who should and ought to be slighted or disappeared at every possible instance. That we in the present day Americas, including Canada and the United States, continue to use words like "Jew", "Zionist" (lobby, oranges, media, etc.), "Israeli", "Talmud" or other words in a disparaging or insulting manner is, in my opinion, another instance of the continuance of the worst traits (both religious and secularized) which Christianity imparted to us, believer or non-believer who lives in a historically-majority-believer country. Christianity, more or less, caused the Holocaust and other pogroms. Christianity, more or less, caused racial quotas against Jews. Christianity ultimately caused the gag reflex of Jewish Israeli nationalism, where Jewish people (both religious and non-religious) began to express and vent their bitter reaction against 2000 years of dehumanization from Christian majority countries by withdrawing to a religious enclave for which they're engaged in an existential fight for their lives (without seeking to convert the Arabs or anyone else to Judaism, mind you), and now Christians and non-religious citizens in historically Christian-ruled states like Canada and the US want to bring up *anything* against (or for) a majority-Jewish state (and settlement) when they have not even thoroughly expunged of their hateful, psychotic, imperialistic sham of a religion? One that historically waged mentally or physically violent campaigns against them? Please! The Israelis are best to ignore (if not thoroughly and rightfully trash) Christian or post-Christian pleas for "peace in the Middle East", even if they come from some LGBT rights activists in Toronto. They wouldn't dare listen to their historical abusers, and they're not likely to listen to the ple
Rayne, Warner Robins Georgia
05/26/10 7:05 AM EST
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Oh, K.R.
Oh K.R., you are just not getting this. As mentioned elsewhere several times: "There are only two main requirements for participation in Pride. (1) Either you are part or supportive of the LGBT community. (2) You engage in lawful freedom of expression, including political speech." QuAIA meets these requirements. That's it. Pride is for ALL LGBT people. Just because you, or I, or the pro-Isreal lobby don't like what someone is saying is not justification for censoring them from a parade borne from the expression of lawful, if unpopular, speech. That the debate has become Israel vs Palestine is irrelevant. If an LGBT Jewish group wants to march, that's their choice.. it's still irrelevant. Further, who marches in Isreal for Gay Pride is also completely irrelevant. If you haven't noticed, we're not in Isreal, we're in Canada. That Pride TO and the City have been lobbied by presumably pro-Isreal groups to censor unpopular speech is deeply offensive. It's anti-democratic, anti-canadian, anti-pride and above all, it's unlawful.
Dan, Toronto ON
05/26/10 8:12 AM EST
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@Dan
Dan's comment is the most reasoned I've seen on this forum yet, even though I disagree with him. Why? Because he STAYS ON TOPIC rather than going off an an anti-Israel diatribe like Zezi and Rick. In my understand, it isn't illegal for an incorporated entity (Pride) to create a policy or make a decision that they feel best reflects their organization's mandate. In this case, not allowing QuAIA to march under the banner of Apartheid has to do with security issues as well as future private and public funding for Pride. So they are in their right to eject QuAIA. Also, marching in the gay pride parade is not a fundamental freedom. To be censored in the parade is not the same as being denied your freedom of speech. QuAIA can express themselves how they like on their time, and for now they should respect the decision made by Pride Toronto.
Ryan, Toronto ON
05/26/10 8:36 AM EST
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how relativist of you Peter
My people, at least most of my people, came from europe to the americas... and I don't think it is difficult to establish who the victims were... it was the natives. The Spanish, however ruthless and racist they were, were not seeking to get rid of the indians to have a Spanish only continent. As for a group looking for middle eastern peace, QaIA has been marching for peace. It is pointing fingers and after looking at the evidence, I think it is pointing fingers the right way. Once Israel gets back to its 1967 and stops messing in palestinian affairs, then I'll be done with this. I am all for peacekeepers from the international community at the border of the new nations. Do you know who isn't? Israel. Under the possibility of peace being impossed on the region, a number of Israeli politicians went on about how peace shouldn't be impossed on them. It should be bargained, except they aren't really into bargaining in good faith. An arbitrator of peace is something that they could use, but that they won't accept because it would mean concessions. So, I think Israel doesn't want peace as much as the palestinians. Frankly, with that attitude, I wonder what they are hoping, that eventually the palestinians will just evaporate? It is constructive to target Israel. So that when someone says we will work out a peace deal for you they say... great!
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/26/10 8:58 AM EST
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The Right Decision
Happy to hear PT and the City of Toronto has put an end to QAIA hijacking Pride and turning it into a Mid-East protest. It is illogical that a group march against a country that supports LGBTs. Leave the hostility at home. Way to go Team Pride!
Soren, Toronto On
05/26/10 9:04 AM EST
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fundamental freedoms
Soren and Ryan, PT didn't put an end to it, nor would the city of toronto have done that where it not for the anti-sociable, ruthless, manipulation of the pro-Israel side. Now you are all coming up about the right of Pride to decide, but Pride didn't have much of a choice. They haven't come out to put an end to anything, they have told us they did it because a bunch of lunatics, whose numbers include people who threw bottles and harassed QaIA, blackmailed them. Nothing to be proud of for you people here. Ryan, there is a fundamental right to not be blackmailed. The city acted in a fascist way by restricting the freedom of expression of another group to pander to the wants of a loud crying bunch of influential people. Everyone involved should be ashamed.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/26/10 9:10 AM EST
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WOO HOO BANNED!
Nice move Pride Committee and City - finally these haters are given the boot. Let the protesters stew at home while everyone celebrates. No parade for the angry zealots. HA HA. Party on, Toronto!
Jeff, Toronto On
05/26/10 9:24 AM EST
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Amen to that
Thankfully Pride has taken this group's banner out of the event. I feel that QuAIA is a piggy-back group likely from NDP policy convention that wants national attention with little regard for Pride finances. I also would like to point out that groups like this have ulterior backers and are many times a front group. I understand that College and University students see this as legitimate protest, so let this group stand out at ST George Subway stn on Saturday and plea their case - they are most welcome.
Bryan Charlebois, Toronto Ontario
05/26/10 9:59 AM EST
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Respectfully disagree
Thanks Ryan - my main problems with the the ban are that 1) Pride is now arbitrarily deciding what messages are acceptable in their parade where they have never done do before, violating their own charter/rules/history in doing so, and 2) that the main opposition to the group, the pro-Israeli lobbyists, are being cowards and bullies in silencing legitimate, if unpopular, speech. As far as "Security Concerns" go, that's what Pride Toronto is PAYING the police for. Apparently a bottle was thrown at the QuAIA marchers last year - the solution is to be more vigilant about the assault, not forbidding them from marching? It's ludicrous. That an outside force (pro-Israeli lobbyists, including B'nai B'rith), which often stand AGAINST LGBT people and their rights is now essentially blackmailing the City, Pride Toronto, and Pride's Sponsors into taking this action against an "unpopular" LGBT organization is disgusting. These acts of cowards and bullies (for that's what these pro-Israeli lobbyists are) are the antithesis of what Pride stands for. Finally, this action sets a dangerous precedent for future "unpopular" voices that are part of our community. If one group can be banned, what's stopping future cowards and bullies from forcing out ANOTHER group from the parade? Pride has made a terrible misstep. It's deeply offensive to me as a gay man, and as a Canadian.
Dan, Toronto ON
05/26/10 10:00 AM EST
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nice move
You make it sound Jeff as if this was a move by Pride while they claim and we all know that a bunch of apologists for Israel manipulated them. There is nothing more hateful than what this people pretend not to see, the way Israel behaves towards palestinians. It is criminal and disgusting. But, I wouldn't claim a victory just yet Jeff. QaIA says they will participate, I think they will one way or another, and more importantly, they are better known than ever. Do you know what this means, if QUIT in San Francisco was known by a few people, QaIA are now known internationally. Not surprisingly a part of the Israeli queer community stood up to support them... who is next... so while I think the pro-Israel group's behaviour is disgusting, I also can't help but thank them, as someone who wants to put an end to the war and occupation, for all the media attention that they have brought QaIA. So Jeff, to people like you, thank you, thank you, thank you. On an aside, next time someone throws a bottle at any of your members QaIA, press charges please. There is no place for violent pro-Israel morons in our marches.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/26/10 10:11 AM EST
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Who's that in the tattoo
Just a wee bit off topic but related to the accompanying photos. In one of the shots of the protesters, photo #5, there's a fat girl, with hairy armpits, huge curly black hair and wearing a purple bikini top. She has a huge tattoo on her upper left arm of a woman's face. Does anyone recognize who the tattoo is of? It looks familiar. Is it Golda Meir?
Inkster, toronto ontario
05/26/10 10:13 AM EST
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Good news
If supporting Palestinians at the Pride Parade is so important to this group, why don't they drop the provocative name in favor of one that is inoffensive and reflects their character? QAIA's refusal to abide signifies that they're more interested in denigrating Israel than supporting Palestinians and are willing to bring the parade down with them out of spite. Bravo Pride Committee!
Robin, Toronto Ontario
05/26/10 11:49 AM EST
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@Robin: what euphemism would your prefer?
Robin, QuAIA's name exactly describes who they are and what they stand for. What would you change it to? Besides, do you honestly think Pride will still allow them to spread their message if they were called something else? Pride is censoring a legitimate LGBT group from the parade strictly on the basis that their message makes some people uncomfortable. FAIL.
Dan, Toronto ON
05/26/10 12:24 PM EST
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Rick loves that he can't aswers questions
I only ask can you give any evidence of Gay Rights or Gay Pride events in the British Mandate Of Palestine before 1947 and no evidence?? Just the same old crap that come from your blog Rick. I have read some of those books that you did suggest but the problem with some of those of your sources(the internet) that anyone can figure out are bias and Rick to understand this conflict you might want to start in the 1880s and the beginnings of the Zionist Movement and when Palestine was apart of the Ottoman Empire. So what about those three Jewish Scholars being anti Israel. You just say this because they are Jewish and agree to agree with your political ideology and Rick you never answer this Question too How does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? and here the map of the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th century(http://www.ata.boun.edu.tr/Faculty/Nadir%20Ozbek/courses/Hist121/Maps/OE_1800-1923_c.jpg) funny how Palestine is a part of it and yet Rick heres a map of the Middle East in the 1950s (http://www.oup.com/uk/orc/bin/9780198781646/01student/maps/the_middle_east.jpg) Interesting how Gaza was apart of Egypt and the West Bank was apart Jordan
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/26/10 12:54 PM EST
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Peter likes to ask irrelevant questions
enough said Peter... how relevant can that be? Did you even do well at school? Since you told us about your achievements... seriously.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/26/10 1:09 PM EST
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Why it's time to dump corporate pride
Here's a dirty little secret: you don't really need all that money to hold a Pride celebration. If it's the difference between 25000 and 100000 people, and 75000 people will only show up if you throw some wasteful extravangaza, then I'm OK with only 25000 people being there. Here's a second dirty secret: You don't need corporations sponsoring you. The Bank of Montreal, TD and other banks supporting Pride do not represent you to their straight constituents. In Edmonton, just go down to one of the branches of these "proud sponsors" during Pride Week. Nary a rainbow flag in sight. We can't depend on them to legitimize us to the rest of the world. Why? Because they advertise their support in the target market to the LGBTQ community, in our publications and neighbourhoods. It's a lot like cigarette companies, when they were allowed to advertise on billboards anyway, having African-American models on billboards, but only in African-American neighbourhoods. They aren't promoting you: only holding up a mirror in their image. Effectively, we give up rights to pay for their advertising to us. They get more out of us than we get out of them. So I think it's time we dump corporate pride.
Rob Butz, Edmonton Alberta
05/26/10 1:13 PM EST
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Board Resolution
I agree with you completely Rob Butz. Here's another dirty secret - when making the statement on the a list of accusations towards QuAIA, I'd like to see proof or documentation to support the statement. http://www.pridetoronto.com/downloads/Board_Resolution.pdf
Jo Jo Julien, Vancouver British Columbia
05/26/10 3:54 PM EST
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Pride Inc sold its soul
Pride Inc is a disgrace, it sold itself out to the highest bidder/sponsor, those claiming this isn't a free speech issue or censorship are living with their head so far up their asses they can't see daylight. Definitely time to drop corporate Pride if we have to start censoring our own for them to have the privilege of advertising to us. The pro-censorship forces have done far more to get QuAIA's message out than they ever could have done themselves, if they had just ignored them their "discomfort" would've lasted 30 seconds as they marched by and hardly anyone would've remembered them, now the whole city if not all of Canada knows about QuAIA and its message and Pride's shameful censorship of our own. What a disgrace, the right wing pro-censorship must be very happy they've caused so much division and upset in the community and by their efforts we just might be seeing the end of Pride as we knew it, so be it, their work is done now its up to the those of us who care about free speech to challenge and over turn this travesty and to never let Pride Inc forget it. I can't believe it but even ron from Vancouver supports letting QuAIA march, I never thought there'd be a day when me and him could ever agree on anything but that day has finally come. We should be forming alliances with free speech rights folks on both the left and the right to combine our efforts to make sure censorship never becomes common in Canada so that the actions of Pride Inc and others who would use censorship for political or financial gain. Do the Israel right or wrong crowd really believe people will think more highly of Israel's actions because of this ruling? If so they are extremely delusional, if anything it makes Israel's rabid supporters seem like nothing but a bunch of well connected bullies and thugs using whatever means they can to silence opposition to Israeli policy. They won a hollow victory by showing what an unprincipled lot they are, QuAIA's message reached far more bec
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/26/10 4:37 PM EST
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it's not about censorship it's about selling out.
this whole issue is not really about Israel's or Palestine's human rights violations and their support or opposition. That's a distraction. The issue that we as GLBTQ Canadians should care about is Pride Selling out. As I read the comments on this article as well as articles about the denial of federal tourism dollars by the conservatives. I'm struck by the contradictions and hypocrisy. On one hand people want a pride that gets lots of sponsorship and tourism investment so that it generates large amounts of money. But on the other hand they still want Pride to be political and carry an activist slant. Well sorry to say but those things are totally incompatible!!! It's their money and it comes with a price. If Pride wants it. Pride has to play by their rules or they don't get it and those corps, would have every right to take it away. It's THIER MONEY. Maybe that would be a good thing? I think so.
Lorin, Edmonton Alberta
05/26/10 5:47 PM EST
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Deaf Queer CENSORED!
As a member of Deaf queer community, I am being censored by Xtra and QuAIA group because they refuse to provide American Sign Language interpreters and a closed captioned for youtube or any vlogs posted on the social media network. It is very shocking to know that Xtra and QuAIA are having a double standard while protesting against Pride Toronto about censoring the FREE SPEECH! I demand Xtra and QuAIA to provide American Sign Language interpreters and a closed captioned because this is my LINGUISTIC HUMAN RIGHTS! So, Rick from London- if you disagree with me then you are CENSORING ME because of the communication barriers!!! Thank you!
Peter, Toronto Ontario
05/26/10 6:36 PM EST
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no one's next
This is isn't a slippery slop, no other group or slogan will be banned, fact of the matter is that QuAIA is a special case because they angered the pro-Israel lobby. They who consider any criticism of Israeli policy to be anti-semitic are the driving force behind this and I just can't see how any other pressure group could ever mount as effective a campaign to ban any one else as the pro-Israel lobby has. Their most effective weapon is labeling those who don't bend to their will as anti-semitic, that's what's likely put the real pressure on the corporations and the city the threat of being labeled anti-semitic for supporting something like Pride when it allows those openly critical of Israel to participate. The charge of anti-semitism doesn't have to be true for it to be effective in shutting down open criticism of Israeli policy. Personally I think using the threat of labeling some one or some group as anti-semitic is a tactic being used far too freely by groups such as Bnai-Brith, they regularly release a report on anti-semitism in Canada but its a joke few take very seriously since it counts criticism of Israeli policy as an act of anti-semitism same as actual violence against Jews by anti-Jewish bigots. If such groups think they're preventing anti-semitirm by forcing groups like Pride Inc to ban groups like QuAIA they are sorely mistaken, at most they're just increasing the antagonism between themselves and supporters of free speech. I'll be called anti-semitic for sure for this post but I don't care because it isn't true, I have no problem with Jewish folks, just with right wing Jewish groups punishing those who have a different view of Israeli policy than they do. If they roles were reversed and it was the Pals with all the power, money and military and the Jews the oppressed minority we likely would be at war right now fighting to make things right but because Israelis are mostly Jewish and a strategic ally in the area even just criticism isn't allowed.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/26/10 7:46 PM EST
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protesting is not activism
Activists in big cities always seem to forget how good they've got it. Everyone should remember that Pride is held in memory of Stonewall, which was a USA event with no Canadian content anyway. Why are you all bickering about how to manage an American imperialist franchise when all of Canada except three neighbourhoods is still in the closet? Instead of giving all the power and all the responsibility to one group and then getting mad when they make unpopular decisions, the obvious answer is to form multiple groups with different goals. For some people, Pride is a political statement; for others it is a family festival; for others it's an anniversary party to celebrate how far we've come. If you are expecting a tiny group of people to do all the work of fundraising and organizing a gigantic event, you're not being fair to them when you expect them to make decisions that don't offend anybody. Toronto has dozens of organizations and thousands of people at its Pride events, so there is no excuse for anyone who is not out there forming their own committees and running their own programs. If you try to do that and somebody tries to stop you, then it is entirely appropriate to accuse them of censorship. But if the issue is just that people in your city want the privilege of a big media spectacle without the headache of managing it, then shame on all of you, because out here in the rest of the country, unpaid volunteers run events with no corporate funding while dodging rednecks with cardboard signs. If you're all so fed up with your own party you should come out to Moose Jaw and cheer them on there, cause they could sure use the help. When the State is corrupt, you vote with your fists. When private business is corrupt, you vote with your feet. Maybe it's time for the HarperCon brownshirts to march in there and cancel the whole damn thing. Then we can talk about what censorship really means.
anonymous, somewhere saskatchewan
05/26/10 8:06 PM EST
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QuAIA likes censorship when they're the censors
This article from Fab magazine shows what nasty little hypocrites QuAIA are, when they threatened to get funding pulled from Buddies in Bad Times becuase they didn't like the show. So much for their committment to free speech: http://www.fabmagazine.com/features/343/gaza.html
Madame Truthie, Toronto Ontario
05/27/10 12:07 PM EST
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I know this won't be popular but....
I believe in free speech and will defend to right of anyone to their opinion, there are FACTS here that need to be addressed. 1) QAIA have worn t-shirts with swatikas on them (crossing out Israel or the Star of David) 2) They are not there to support gay rights nor does their org. have anything to do with gay rights 3) Their sole purpose is to speak out against Israel 4) Israel is the only nation in the middle east tolerant of gays With these facts in place, it begs the question: Why are they marching in a Gay Pride parade who's goal is to promote gay rights and celebrate gay culture. Now don't misunderstand me, I too have my issues with Israel and her treatment of the Palestinian people, I'm just not sure if this is the right venue to be protesting it. I should also point out that other groups which march in the parade are equally out of place. Pride should not censor BUT it should and does of the right to set guidelines as to the content. If not, then we would have to accept anti-gay rights groups to participate, if only on principle.....and there as they say is the rub. How far does the principle of free speech go? and if someone here states that anti-gay groups don't belong, well then, so much for the free speech argument. It's never as black and white as people would like to think. The truth is speech always has grey areas which sometimes need to be quelled. Again, that is not my intent, but I wish only to point that in the end, this really does come down to one thing....is this organization and it's message necessarily a good fit for Gay Pride. I know I have ruffled some feathers but I must add this point. I am gay, work for the Military and have seen first hand the hatred of the middle east where gays are concerned. I admit this colours my view but I don't think my statements to be completely without merit. Have a Great Pride and hopefully this will not take away from the fun.
Jon in Canada, Montreal QC
05/27/10 1:05 PM EST
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your facts are wrong
Jon, Have you seen the parade? Where you there? You claim "facts" but whose facts are you talking about? Who told you that? Are you willing to admit that you were lied to by someone? Because you were. There was a crossed out swastica in a t-shirt, which means no to nazis and no to facists. There were no crossed out stars of david or anything of the kind. So, you lost credibility with point number 1. try again! Meanwhile wonder, please, whether it is ok to get half way informed in such a delicate matter. Be informed, by all means, but until you are taking the time to actually see video footage, critically examine how manipulative and right out lying is the Gladstone video, then perhaps don´t say anything because you are just supporting a bunch of liars. If there had been any hate speech, please call the police.
Jon, toronto ontario
05/27/10 1:17 PM EST
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Peter... you are now bordering on ridiculous
wait... you were ridiculous before... how is QaIA apartheid discriminating against you? Are you insane? There is something connecting somewhere up there.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/27/10 1:20 PM EST
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Party Crashers
I don't think this is a free speech issue at all! QuAIA have the same rights to free speech as anyone else. Go have an "Isreal aprtheid" Parade that isn't part of Pride. No one will stop you and you'll get all the free speech you want. Pride is not a pulic forum where every asshole in the world can come and spew whatever they like. Pride is like a party, where everyone is invited as long as they play by the rules and promise to behave themselves. If you don't like it, you aren't invited. QuAIA are like beligerant party crashers who act badly and insist on staying. I looked at that link Madame Truthie left from fab magazine. I liked the line where QuAIA say they "are fed up with asshole yuppie Gay people." As a yuppie Gay person, I'm fed up with the QuAIA assholes trying to ruin our Pride.
ZoomZoom, Toronto Ontario
05/27/10 1:27 PM EST
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Fair enough....
@ Jon Fair enough, I may have gotten number 1 wrong, however, where else in my post was I wrong? As for falling for right wing liars, hardly. Left wing, Right wing, all the same to me. They both lie, cheat and obfuscate for their own gain and that's their right, just as it is my right to either ignore, correct or challenge. I simply wanted to point out that I didn't think this particular subject was necessarily a good fit for Pride. If that makes me stupid or uninformed as you call it, then so be it. I lost interest in Pride when it became to corporate anyway. Clearly this is an issue best dealt with by protesters and pundits. I have bigger things worry about, if you bothered to read my post in its entirety, you should understand what I mean. I have fought for my rights as a gay man going on 30 years and will continue to do so. What I will not do however is keep quiet when I see accidental or purposeful distractions...and that is what this is. Finally, I have not seen the Gladstone video but I have heard of it and decided that it too was polically calculated to provoke. As I said, I'll give you that I was off on point 1 but again, where else in my post was I wrong?
Jon in Canada, Montreal QC
05/27/10 1:41 PM EST
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350,000+ Unprotestors Could Care Less
Yawn. 350,000+ LGBT people in the GTA did not show up for a protest by 100 or so people opposed to Pride Toronto's decision to ban the phrase "Israeli apartheid" from the Pride parade because they really could care less. Why does Xtra ignore this massive lack of interest in this non-issue by the local LGBT community and instead focus on more interesting news (such as the price of chicken wieners)? Yawn.
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
05/27/10 2:22 PM EST
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A very cheap shot against Kulanu Toronto
re:- SD (Kulanu/Hillel) 05/25/10 4:57 PM EST This is a very cheap shot against Kulanu Toronto and borders on anti-Semitism. Kulanu carried pro-Israeli banners only to protest the anti-Israeli banners carried by QuAIA. If you allow one then you must allow the other. Kulanu has not done this previously and no doubt will not do this this year. Obviously neither banner belongs in the Pride parade but Pride Toronto needs to more clearly articulate what does and does not belong in the parade and then firmly enforce these policies because otherwise the parade will degenerate into a free-for-all of irrelevant "free speech" and lose its focus and then the visitors and sponsors and volunteers will vote with their feet and stay away. Kulanu Toronto is a good example of a very successful ethnic gay group and a good role model for other ethnic gays to follow. We need to see more ethnic gay groups like this in the Pride parade. Please do not take cheap shots against them. Let's make a deal. When Kulanu Toronto marches past you you can vote silently by turning your back on them and when QuAIA marches past the rest of us will vote silently against them by likewise turning our backs on them.
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
05/27/10 2:46 PM EST
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re: Jon in Canada
QuAIA got its start in response to the Israeli gov't using the better situation for LGBT folks in Israel as part of its propaganda campaign to try and improve its image after the Gaza attacks. Many LGBT folks in Israel and those with some connection to Israel felt offended that they would try to "pinkwash" Israel, that they were using their existence to justify its treatment of the Palestinians. Especially considering that LGBT rights in Israel are still lacking in many areas and that legal equality for sexual minorities still doesn't exist there even if LGBT folks have it better in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East. Those who didn't want their sexuality to be used as propaganda for Israel started QuAIA and other groups like them in Israel itself and in other parts of the world where the local LGBT communities had a connection to Israel or the region in general. In essence that's why its a gay issue, it all started with the Israeli gov't using the relevant tolerance for LGBT folks there for propaganda purposes and the rejection of that by LGBT folks connected to Israel. Of course not everyone who has joined up has such a direct connection to Israel and Palestine as those who founded these groups but that doesn't really matter. I'm not a member of QuAIA, I became an advocate for free speech and QuAIA after realizing how I was being lied to and manipulated by those opposed to QuAIA or any criticism of Israeli policy. These folks are not anti-Israel anyways, they are anti-Israeli policy, its a fine distinction granted but they aren't calling for the destruction of Israel or anything like that, they just want to see Israel recognize the right of the Palestinians to exist and to treat them accordingly. I wish everyone saying QuAIA is this or that had to prove it, as it is some are repeating lies they heard or assume that because they're critical of Israeli policy they're anti-Israel, at least most people have stopped calling them a hate group.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/27/10 8:01 PM EST
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QuAIA is a hate group
Not everybody has stopped calling them a hate group. They sure look filled with hate in the youtube video xtra posted to this story
so there, Toronto Ontario
05/27/10 9:42 PM EST
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Referring to "Nazis"
The authors of the above posts who so freely refer to Israelis as "Nazis", should remember that the Muslim leader of the Palestinians (the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) was a strong supporter of the Nazis during World War II. Here's a clip of the Mufti meeting Hitler. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLRTe-lZMB0&feature=related
Joe, Toronto Ontario
05/27/10 10:58 PM EST
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I think...
I'll skip pride this year. It's becoming unseemly. It hasn't be gay pride (yep I'm gay) for many years anyway, so what's the point? What exactly am I supposed to celebrate or march for, some capitalist government sanctioned version of what pride is? I don't think so. Maybe I'll start another one again, oh I know it'll be in Grange Park...those were the days; the grass was greener, sky's were bluer and smiles were bright...
tim, toronto on
05/28/10 9:02 AM EST
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re: Rich, Toronto
I understand what you are saying but again, IMO this really seems out of place in a gay pride parade. As well, the irony cannot be ignored. QAIA may indeed be against Israeli policy and not calling for her destruction but the Palestinians have and still do. Further, as I stated before, the Arab world is not at this juncture a safe place for gay people and like it or not you have to pick you battles. With respect, it's quite easy to sit here in comfortable North America where gays are relatively safe, it's quite another when you're face to face with the very people QAIA claim to support. This fact, ugly and unfair as it may appear, is fact. I've seen first hand the hatred and evil Muslim fanatacism against gays, believe me I would like nothing more for Palestinians to have their own nation but until they stop the their part in this, I must side with Israel when it comes to securing a safe middle east. I agree Israel needs to do more but it truly is a two way street. Finally, I need to point out that I wonder why so many here in Canada and elsewhere protest this kind of thing yet offer no concrete solutions beyond the same tired rhetoric. Why are we not helping to extricate gays from nations that harm us. Why not create an underground railroad of sorts to help our people. This would at least be a step in the right direction. QAIA may march anyway and that should be their right, I just think this isn't so much about gay rights as it is, as you stated, a back slap at Israel for some perceived slight. It is what it is. I will not attend for other reasons but this is one of them. Enjoy your pride.
Jon in Canada, Montreal QC
05/28/10 10:49 AM EST
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Term IS discriminatory
Why not ask Israeli or Israel-supportive queer people how they feel when they're marching at pride and they have people screaming that they're part of an apartheid regime? This article misses the boat. It doesn't even talk to the people who are being discriminated against by this term. One could find many people marching at Tel Aviv Pride who oppose government policies, but would be confused and insulted to be told they live in an apartheid state. Why not try to understand the people this term targets, namely all Israelis and many non-Israeli Israel supporters, instead of blindly demanding the right to insult them as they try to march at Pride TO. If you've ever visited Israel or studied its history, or the difficult challenges it faces, you'll know that Israeli society and government are complex. But courts routinely rule in favour of Palestinian rights. Painting all of Israel's citizens and supporters with the slanderous brush of apartheid is discriminatory and unhelpful.
Josh, Toronto ON
05/28/10 10:51 AM EST
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@Josh
Hey Josh - Israel is an Apartheid state. It's not discrimination it's fact. I'll attach the summary since the full report is over 300 pages (of proof). Under section F - Findings on Apartheid, quote, ...this study concludes that Israel has introduced a system of apartheid in the Occupied Palestinian Territories - end quote. Human Sciences Research Council of the Government of South Africa. I urge you to read it but you probably won't, too afraid to be proved wrong. Don't be afraid to change your views Josh. http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Document-3230.phtml
J Roman, Toronto ON
05/28/10 11:37 AM EST
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@J Roman
So why does your source comes from Ricks Blog? I wonder?
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/28/10 11:44 AM EST
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When they scream censorship
and you people scream censorship and yet don't mind censoring others when they don't agree to agree like the Gaza Strip Club (not freedom of expression?) or even censoring other peoples opinions(also not freedom of expression or speech such Ricks illogical facilities he uses to put any one he does not agree with down and rather undemocratic), Also this all start out as the Rights of Gay Palestinians and not Israel. Funny show the topic shifted to Israel and not Gay Palestinians. Also more interesting they can't answer How a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? I just love how this goes unanswered since they can't seem to answer this.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/28/10 12:03 PM EST
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been answered ad nauseum
Peter y our question about why this has anything to do with gay rights has been answered over and over and over and over and over and over and over again time after time in various posts from various comments sections on this topic, you just refuse to hear it. Criticizing people is not censorship, banning them from marching during Pride is. You who claim to have a Master's degree seem so incapable of understanding such basic concepts as free speech. Its not surprising people put you down Peter, its extremely frustrating having anything to do with you since you refuse to respond to the points made in others posts and instead just keep repeating yourself while making up fictious claims of censorship against those who disagree with you.I'll never understand how you're incapable of understanding that free speech is a two way street, its not just for you or anyone else to say their bit also for others to respond to what you have to say yet for some reason you think you're being censored because many don't agree with you, get over it, you paid far too much for Master's degree and got far too little for it.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/28/10 7:14 PM EST
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Josh wrote:
"This article misses the boat. It doesn't even talk to the people who are being discriminated against by this term." Well, I had a lengthy chat with Martin Gladstone, who felt discriminated against enough to start the lobbying against Pride, and a good chunk of our chat is right here in the article.
Scott D, Toronto Ontario
05/29/10 2:36 AM EST
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OK QuAIA, put up or shut up
OK QUEERS AGAINST ISRAELI APARTHEID AND THE REST OF YOU WHINERS. TIME TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP: Tomorrow is the Walk With Israel, I expect to turn on my TV and see you all on mass protesting this issue that is oh so important to you. Yes yes yes I expect to see these thousand that you say support you in the community. I e...xpect to see Katherine Arnup, Hugh English, Amy Gottlieb, Ian Lumsden, Michael Riordon, Lorna Weir, Brian Woods, Dr Allan Li, Brad Fraser and any other person of importance who has or you have said suppots QuAIA. I expect to see you one and all, arm in arm fighting the fight you all say is oh so important. Get out your signs and rainbow flags and shake you little fists. And if not, well you have proven what more level heads have said and that it is a non-issue, let alone a gay one and nothing more then a fringe groups attempt at using PRIDE and the Gay community as a vehicle for free publicity. Please don't disappoint me now.
Jeff Mc Cade, Toronto Ontario
05/29/10 5:10 PM EST
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We Eat Our Own
there are lots of causes….some more “in” right now in the despicable spectacle of HORIZONTAL HOSTILITY (Bishop, 2007) occurring.I applaud all of us who fight for the disadvantaged, but when this fight begins to destroy our own solidarity and tears down the house many of us struggled to build….it only serves to protect those that oppress us. (citation of Anne Bishop…Becoming Allies) I accepted long ago you can never please everyone, and that rights are something we must all fight for….but for some people to viciously attack people in our own community for political views that don’t match their your own…. this is simply vile. It leaves me concerned how those who cloak themselves in free speech rhetoric really are not examining the complexity of this issue and are attacking our brothers and sisters with screams of “liar”. The only people that are winning in this debate are the white straight men who are watching with glee as the “Queer Community” in Toronto begins once again to eat it’s own. Please have compassion and understanding for all members in our community when we discuss this complex issue. Who made the law that being queer meant you had to be left in your politics and any other viewpoint meant you were something “less than”. Happy Pride…. I commend those that fight for queer people to live without fear in our world. I wish I could do more….but Queer rights is a big enough battle for me especially at home today when our brothers and sisters in the Trans community still struggle with grave disadvantage in our own backyard.
Jim Cullen, Toronto Ontario
05/30/10 1:08 PM EST
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Shame!
Pride Toronto, take your party and shove off. I support the right for free speech in the Parade. It's bad enough to loose federal funding, but to not allow free speech, is another thing. Whose side are you on? You support the imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians? Apartheid for sure, hell they are even worse than the Russians who built the Berlin Wall. I don't agree with your decision. It's time to scrap Pride ... Vancouver can not get sponsors and you have your problems. It's lost its meaning ...
Garth Caron, Airdrie AB
05/31/10 10:42 PM EST
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Re: Shame!
Who says Vancouver Pride can't get sponsors? Last I checked, as a member of the society, they are having a record year for sponsorship.
Proud, Vancouver BC
06/01/10 7:26 PM EST
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How you been to the Middle East?
I want to ask this question with compassion and sincerity, and wish not to be misinterpreted, regardless of who I support. Having lived in both Israel and the occupied territories, I would like to know how many QuAIA members (since there are reported thousands), have spent substantial time in the middle east, or are you simply basing your beliefs on what you read or see on TV? For myself having spent over a year in Beersheba, Elat, Nabulus, Jericho and Jerusalem, the experience left me with a thorough understanding that.... well....lets say very different than what I assumed and from what the media feeds you daily. (on either side). I was not on some privileged vacation, I worked on farms to support myself and saved for three years in part-time jobs to at least pay for the flight.This I can say with conviction ....the atrocities I witnessed often are untold....from both sides. But for me, my opinions were formed and frankly changed when my involvement moved from disenfranchised grad school angst and anger to actually involvement.... for me that was not going to happen until I saw it for myself. Of course I am not suggesting that you must live or see something to support/fight for it, but I will say this.....be cautious about your stance, particularly if it is simple based on news, rhetoric, academic discourse, or second hand stories,....someday you may find the truth you fought so hard for, was nothing but distortion and spin. As I have stated before, I believe in fighting for all those that live under the spectre of oppression....but I shed my tears for that fact that no one seems to be marching with such passion as QuAIA for the thousands of queer muslims I saw tortured, and murdered in the supposed "Holy Land". When people chant "shame shame"....that is the shame I lament.
Jim Cullen, Toronto Ontario
06/02/10 7:54 AM EST
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Pride=Politics
I cringe hearing someone (especially from the LGBT community) question the inclusion of politics in our event. Have you no sense of respect to where we have come from? How dare you disrespect our roots, and the struggles of those that have sacrificed to allow us the freedom to express ourselves (somewhat) freely. You are an embarrassment to the community here in Toronto, and to the queer community at large, who live in situations that don't share the luxury of being able to voice their opinion and have a dialogue with others that might disagree. Wake up! "Queer gatherings of any sort - parades, demos, cultural events, sporting clubs and dance parties - are and always will be implicitly political events." - Jane Farrow
Jeremy, Toronto Ontario
06/02/10 8:16 PM EST
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Err on the side of inclusion
I think QuAIA bellicose, disagreeable self-righteous motherfuckers, some of whom are my friends. (I don't like the way many yell down people who innocently ask why they're demonizing the only gay-positive state in the region - and accuse them of being part of the "pro-Israel lobby" as if that question never occurred to anyone else). But then, I am reminded we, or at least some of us, had to be bellicose, disagreeable self-righteous motherfuckers to get our own rights,and to get AIDS taken seriously. So I prefer to err on the side of inclusion when it comes to free speech and offensive talk, especially about politics and power. Kyle Rae's statement that Pride is just about homophobia defies history. So does the idea floated here frequently that it's just a party; it is indeed that for many, but it's about much more (How do you think your 'party' came about? Don't you know we had to fight for your right to party? That we did it initially without permits because road closures could not be obtained and thus early Prides were outlaw and and thus overtly and axiomatically political?) So, Pride's now about the right to not be offended? Well, then, why is the Royal Bank there? They offend me. Rapacious industrial capitalism shows up to make its mark and sell its own disagreeable message, doesn't it? You don't have to like QuAIA, I don't, but couldn't you see your way to inclusion over exclusion? If they break the laws on hate speech, then let them deal with the consequences themselves. If they offend the city's anti-discrimination policy, then let the city be specific about what that means and everyone can govern themselves accordingly next year. Pride, you fucked up. We all do. But you admit it, you make amends and ya move on. You worry more about offending sponsors than offending us, and that is an unsustainable position to be in. You don't have a right to sell our Pride to the highest bidder, or to quail in the face of vague threats from the City. And w
Alex MacLean, Toronto ON
06/03/10 1:57 AM EST
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Have you forgotten ...
1) Godwin's Law "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." 2) a·part·heid (-pärtht, -ht) n. 1. An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites. **2. A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.** **3. The condition of being separated from others; segregation.** If the definition is true, why are we arguing a moot point?
Alex, Toronto On
06/04/10 6:20 PM EST
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re: Jim Cullen
I'm the wrong person to respond to your question about members of QuAIA having first hand knowledge of Israel/Palestine but from what I've heard some of the members of QuAIA are connected to both Israel and Palestine and have spent time there or were born and/or lived there. I'm not a member of QuAIA and I don't know any of them, I'm just basing that on what I've read or heard in the past. Personally my lack of connection to the area is why I'll never join QuAIA, I see problems on both sides though I have more sympathy for the Palestinians since they're suffering more and living under occupation, also since Israel is a modern democracy with much wealth and power that is in control of the occupied territories I believe it is up to them to take the lead in making peace, I also expect more from the Israeli gov't than the PA for the same reasons. However I figure my lack of connection makes it impossible for me to be a good advocate, plus to be honest I'm sick of hearing about the problems over there and would be happiest if I never heard about them again, the only reason I've been defending QuAIA is because I felt pissed off for the way I was lied to and manipulated by the anti-QuAIA smear campaign which I originally bought into because I had no reason to doubt those who told me there was a hate group marching in the Pride parade last year. The more I learned the more I realized QuAIA was no hate group and the attempts to censor them were based solely on others not wanting messages that disagree with what they believe getting out into the public. I'm also a firm believer in free speech up to the point that it actually incites violence, with a few specific exceptions mind you but too long to go into here. I believe its better to hear hateful comments so we can oppose them instead of letting the underlying belief simmer unchallenged. In my mind there are some exceptions to that rule as well especially when children are involved but that's a whole other long post.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/04/10 7:05 PM EST
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Let them march!
The people marching should be running against Israeli "expansionism" not "apartheid". There are lots of Arabs in Israel. It is simplistic not to see that the Arabs (ie. Hamas etc) are lobbing bombs at Israel and vice-versa. Israel needs to give the Palestinians back their land and be satisfied with what they now have as the State of Israel. Its simplistic and moronic just to carry a name-calling placard! Why don't we just exterminate all the Jews so that EVERYONE could be happy? What WOULD you like the Jews to do?
John Palmer, Toronto Ontario
06/05/10 2:54 PM EST
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We don't need your money!
That's right, gay pride started by the community and by volunteers. Everyone gay, lesbian, queer, trans, nudest, ....everyone has the right to express what they want regardless of political views. That's how pride started and that how it attracted the "sponsors". The sponsors are only interested in the gay money and marketing their products to the community. If the city/sponsors are going to tell us what to do, then we can go back and do it the old fashion way!!
Alex, Toronto Ontario
06/05/10 8:05 PM EST
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re: Term IS discriminatory
I meant to respond to this post a while back but got onto something else and never came back to it. Many members of QuAIA are Jewish and have in or were born in Israel. Being critical of Israel does not mean you don't support the country just like being critical of Canadian gov't policy doesn't make one anti-Canadian, claiming they're anti-Israel is just a tactic used by those seeking to make the issue as polarized as possible, same as those calling them a hate group because they disagree with what they have to say. Many folks who strongly support Israel also criticize its policies in regards to the Palestinians because they realize, as a former Israeli PM said (I forget which one) Israel may either be a Jewish state if the two state solution is soon implemented or an undemocratic apartheid state if it is not. Those of us who do care about Israel, even if just as another democratic state and ally, don't want it to continue down this path which is largely being driven by the settler movement and the right wing in Israel which is gaining strength every year. Its hard to honestly examine what has been happening and not think that many on the right in Israel are resisting allowing a realistic Palestinian state because they want all of Palestine for Israel, why else would they continue building settlements there if they truly believed it would one day soon be a foreign state? If you are uncomfortable hearing Israel described as an apartheid state the solution is to do what you can, as limited as it is, to try and encourage the Israeli gov't to change its policies and to allow the creation of a viable Palestinian state instead of just calling for the censorship of the term while continuing to bury your head in the sand ignoring what is happening in the occupied territories. Personally I'd love to just ignore the whole issue but its hard to do when queers who are connected to Israel/Palestine in Toronto are being censored over the issue.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/05/10 9:57 PM EST
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RIP Pride
Whether or not you happen to agree or disagree with the legitimacy of one group's particular political bent, or the language they employ to further their agenda, the question here is one of PRECEDENT. What started as a demonstration for queer rights and visibility has (d)evolved into a week-long festival on to which many corporations have hitched their promotional wagons. I have been fine with this mutation of the soul of Pride, largely because said corporations and sponsors were not in the position to dictate the content and character of the event. Until this year. With the Pride committee and board finally taking their marching orders from corporations and sponsoring bodies, the very heart and soul of this event has been corrupted. The floodgates are open. If TD Bank takes exception with Dykes on Bikes, who is to now say they wont been bumped from the parade route next year? If Labatt doesn't like the sight of totally naked Toronto men marching alongside their banners, will they be asked to wear fig leaves in future parades? The manner in which the committee has so readily crumbled to pressure from these interests in 2010 tells us the balance of power on the issue of who is invited to Pride has well and truly shifted. It's now about the money folks. The soul of Pride is dead.
Andrew, Toronto ON
06/07/10 6:22 PM EST
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wise decision/stupid group
The organization calling itself QuAIA has noting to do with gay rights or even gay related issues. It is a group of people whose aim is to call attention to how "evil" Israel is. More than that, I totally agree with the wise decision of the organizers of the Gay Pride Parade; the use of the phrase "Israeli Apartheid" is an incredibly divisive, bellicose and furthermore a dubious term to use at this kind of parade.
Jon, montreal Qc
06/09/10 8:14 PM EST
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one other point
It seems to me from watching some of the videos of this groups protests; that they seem to be a vocal, aggressive,(as well as even potentially violent) tiny minority within the community. They do not represent most Gays; nor do they represent most reasonable people period. The Gay Pride Parade is about celebration and joy. It should not be about negativity and hateful emotions....
Jon, montreal Qc
06/09/10 8:40 PM EST
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Way to confuse stuff, bitch
That Zara Dhanani can't ever open her mouth without making some kind of racialized remarks. She's fucking obsessed. Now we are to understand that there was a concerted effort to keep people of colour out of pride? No one told me I coulnd't come and I ddin't wait for invitashions! I'll be it had more to do with people warming up to the idea within their own communities. That the Tories have targetted our communities of colour in the suburbs and here in Oshawa with their social conservatism says something. Most non-Western countries are not socially liberal. I couldn't kiss my girlfriend back home in Grenada and get away with it. Hold white people to account for what they're accountable for. But stop fucking blaming them for everything. Some are assholes, most aren't.Pride? You just fucking show up. Just show up! How hard is it? Hundreds of thousands of other people of colour have figured it out! I didn't need no invitation, I just came. Sometimes these university bitches can be so thick.
Karla, Oshawa ON
06/10/10 4:27 PM EST
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