In defence of segregated spaces
GUEST COLUMN
Nancy Irwin / Toronto / Friday, August 17, 2012
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It seemed like another tempest in a teapot. Once again, those who feel entitled tried to penetrate a women’s (now women and trans) space and created a virtual Facebook army to which a real-life gathering of dykes responded. In the end dykes managed to protect our little space (with help from a lawyer) and a wonderful gathering at the Black Eagle ensued – the first ever of its kind. But it raised questions, whether legitimate or legal, about separate spaces that are so integral to the lives of gays and lesbians and those in between.
 
Queers have been enjoying separate space for decades. Discrete entrances have marked many gay bars, like Platform 9 3/4 in Harry Potter; you had to know where they were to find them. Remember the Quest? Nestled on Yonge St near Bloor, it was practically invisible! And yet gay men and their allies found it. The Cellar is no different today.
 
We need our separate space to find each other, like needles in a haystack, often invisible in the straight world. I can speak of women, who are often shorter and more softly spoken than men, who disappear in mixed spaces such as Pride. That’s only one reason we started the Dyke March. There are others. Without the presence of dominating men, or worse, sexually harassing men, women are able to relax and connect in their space, with guards down.
 
We’ve also enjoyed a degree of mixed space. I’ve been going to gay men’s bars since I was a teen. They were easier to find, more numerous and better supported by the wealthier gender. Eventually, I found lesbian bars and occasionally brought my fag friends. I danced many nights throughout the '80s at The Barn, which was raw and dark and leather, with an aroma of poppers on the dancefloor.
 
In those days, like now at the Eagle, all washrooms were men’s rooms. At the Rose or the Chez, all were considered women’s. We used them indiscriminately – long before trans became an issue. The fags had the Barracks and other bathhouses to go to. The dykes gathered at political social groups, working hard to improve the status of all women, fighting for the right to abortion, pay equity, equal access to employment and more. We made our erotic connections there. And the desire to change social structures meant threesomes were politically correct!
 
Queer is the new term, used to encompass all. In recent years, the trend among butch women in the dyke scene has been to transition, lop off tits and take testosterone. As a result, the dyke community has been forced to deal with a whole new set of gender issues and adjust to them. Bois and trans men were at first denied access to our women-only spaces, until we figured out that those we were barring were us!
 
It doesn’t seem the men’s community has experienced the same significant number changing gender, though there are high-profile t-girls and drag queens competing for the stage. We created genderqueer! We are a diverse community, with many subgroups; the leather community is but one of them. Now we’ve even got liberal straight people calling themselves queer, because they feel comfortable among us. What has happened to the world?!
 
There have been so many improvements to gay life that we could not fathom decades ago, and gay marriage is, strangely, at the top of the list. It seems to have created a platform in which we really are considered equal. Many rights that we now enjoy have come from that gain. But while equal, we aren’t straight. We are different. And while some of us have assimilated, right down to the white picket fence, others have Leather Pride flags distinguishing their homes from the others on the block, and there are play spaces in our homes that make Fifty Shades of Grey seem beige.
 
Why is it that straight men expect access to every space? And what is it they hoped to gain? Could it be hot lesbian sex? And why do straight women think they should be allowed to bring their husbands? They have plenty of space of their own. Plenty of gay men have had the unpleasant experience of cruising and finding a hookup, then being pestered by unwelcome people who want to watch. Dykes have, too. We didn’t need our tiny gathering crashed by the pansexual community – a euphemism for straight.
 
Other men’s spaces exist. Rough House is a men’s play event that happens on Sunday afternoons. It’s taken years to slowly build from a social gathering to a place that actually has play. I commend the management for doing an excellent job of creating space. They have a clear invitation policy. It’s a gay men’s play space that welcomes the few leather dykes who feel we belong there. We are also the ones who’ve been going all along. We few women, who are familiar with primarily men’s spaces, know how to act, how to blend and enjoy that particular environment. The organization specifically does not welcome the pansexual community. It does not try to be all things to all people.
 
We have women and trans play parties that are private (by invitation only) that have been happening here in Toronto since 1999. Our parties have a very clear statement of what constitutes trans – living 24/7 as a woman, if born male. All those born female are welcome, regardless of their chosen gender. These parties are for women who play with women. Some might be predominantly straight, some bi, and some gold-star lesbian. Straight male crossdressers are not invited. There are plenty of other parties in Toronto for heterosexuals. And there are mixed genderqueer parties for queers.
 
Thankfully, it turned out that there are legal exceptions to the rules that allowed us a segregated women and trans space for our night at the Eagle, so the assaulting army backed down. And the bar was packed! I haven’t seen that many women at the Eagle since the Ms Black Eagle competitions. And never have I seen that many leather women and trans people have a space of our own in Toronto. And that space we fought for was the size of a living room.
 
That same weekend I went to the Leather Ball. It was a wonderful party, with the dancefloor comfortably filled with men and women and those in between, in full fetish gear. Men danced with men. Women danced with women. And we danced with each other. It’s hard to describe the feeling, the energy of a very queer space, but I will say that it nourishes my soul. And the attention I received was desired.
 
Pride now appears half straight, and something is lost. The Church St Fetish Fair turned into a family fair – then disappeared altogether. We need to protect our cherished spaces.
 
We have all taken the risks to go against societal norms to come out as who we are, queer, stereotype challengers, who have fought for our lives against our oppressors. The leather community is an even smaller minority, distinct among queers. When we come together, it’s a kind of magic. But we still need our separate spaces. Lesbians have house parties. Gays keep the bathhouses in business. That hasn’t changed.
 
What has changed is that trans men slip into Toronto bathhouses discreetly, and play. Inferno is welcoming trans men this year. Women are allowing trans men and trans women into their intimate space. We are developing, and we need our space to develop in. It would be nice to allow these minority communities to exist and not be swallowed up by mainstream. It’s our diversity that makes us interesting. In order to thrive, we need spaces in which to develop and explore that diversity, with a sense of affinity for those who are, like us, different.
 
Acceptance is a double-edged sword. Ironically, I prefer playing with a straight edge.
 
 
  


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Reader Comments


 
Trans issues
Seriously? "Long before trans was an issue"? People have been transitioning socially since people set up gender barriers, and medically (recorded) since the first half of the 1900's. So you can't honestly say that in the 80's things were so much better because trans folk didn't exist. Lesbians lopping off their tits and taking testosterone? Are you completely unaware as to how transphobic you are? I'm so disappointed in Xtra for running this article. I can't believe that a magazine meant for the marginalized, you would run an article that hurts the community even more.
Tory, Vancouver BC
08/17/12 12:01 PM EST
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Brilliant!
Nancy, this column is excellent and covers all the salient points. Thank you so much for contributing to the dialogue – and so brilliantly!
Matthew Pavelich, Toronto Ontario
08/17/12 12:07 PM EST
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Agreed!
Well written and delivering a point many don't seem to get or understand. Had an issue here in Montreal in a Gay men's bar involving allowing the straight women to be present. Don't recall the outcome but I personally don't want a straight woman watching as I'm on the make...It just ruins the magic intamacy of the moment and the whole ambience. Have a designated mixed night if it is that important but otherwise to each there space!
Alan, Montreal Quebec
08/17/12 12:12 PM EST
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“[T]rans men slip into Toronto bathhouses”
I can assure you that many gay men strongly object to the pattern – somewhat glibly described here – of “trans men slip[ping] into Toronto bathhouses discreetly, and play.” At least you admit the surreptitiousness and intent to deceive associated with such an action. If you get to define your segregated spaces, so do we.
Joe Clark, Toronto ON
08/17/12 12:48 PM EST
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ID cards?
And how would gay and lesbian folk react to being banned from "straight" establishments? Or if those few women who attend were now barred from leather event? Who are you to define that pansexual means straight? Ah, when the oppressed becomes the oppressor...
Curious George, Toronto ON
08/17/12 12:58 PM EST
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lies hypocrisy and deceipt -- todays queer sex
Cake and eat it too again. So you as a "leather lesbian" get to crash men's leather space because you are special but you want a man-free space? Hypocrite. Segregation be desire locus is the basis of most human social sex scenes -- men with women or women with women or men with men or trans queered with trans poly queered. Trans men with vaginas in gay sex spaces is one reason I stopped going. Hypocrisy all down the line. I thank Bog I am old and lived the heyday of gay male with penis sex spaces with like minded gay males with penises. It was furtive as women were always sneaking in but it did exist and it was great. Btw for a real take on trans men sneaking into gay bathhouses a revolting article in fab a few years ago by Nina Arsenault interviewed such trans men and they all had a good laugh that they were fooling gay men -- that was the kick. SICK! The new Queer gay male falls over himself to proclaim how much he loved transman vagina and eating cunt as the new litmus test of Queer authenticity. SICKMAKING.
gay separatism by genitals and gender and sex, Toronto Ontario
08/17/12 1:14 PM EST
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Cockblocking gets us nowhere
i feel weird about some of the language and dismissals around trans/pan/genderqueer in this piece... however: i've had a lot of discussions recently about the fraught relationship between (very real) misogyny in the gay community and the historical and present importance of all-men's sex spaces... i firmly believe there should be spaces available for everyone''s desires to manifest in safe and experimental ways, and currently there aren't as many of those same kinds of spaces for many of my women and trans friends as there are for men. however, i sometimes feel that when women and others, straight and queer, insist that we make all gay men's sex spaces welcoming to women, they wish to do so at the expense of men feeling safe, responsible, and turned on about their own desires. the fact that some gay men get immediately turned off in the presence of a woman, or start to feel a different kind of hang up when it's not "just men", is a normal reaction to a fucked up world- a symptom of that broader misogyny which we as queer men do really need to work on. we aren't in total control of our desires... gay sex spaces and cultures are apparatuses which allow people to suspend their sense of shame so they can get it on. if someone wants to dismantle those spaces and structures because they are exclusive to women, they inadvertently add to the baggage and bullshit a lot of guys are trying to leave at the door when they enter. making people uncomfortable about where and how they like hot, consensual sex is not productive. i'd rather we create a hot constellation of sex positive environments for people with all kinds of desires, which in its plurality can accommodate everybody, if not all in one single dungeon or tearoom or dyke bar.... y know?
Jonathan, Toronto ON
08/17/12 1:20 PM EST
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why the disrespect of the male boner
Jonathon, you imply that gay men need sex spaces free of women because of shame and oppresson and that once we are empowered we will not have to hide from and fear women in our sex play. WRONG! For a few (a small minority) gay men with penises who are male gendered it is the same men as us who we get a boner over -- nothing to do with queer shame. Why is this so hard to both understand and respect?!?! Your world mission to make everyone have sex equity and be desired by everyone else is YOUR trip -- why trash a group that just wants to get it on together and away from others not desired?!?
sex was once easy now it is Queered and a bore, Toronto Ontario
08/17/12 1:28 PM EST
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The 80's called it wants it's bullshit back...
The push towards equal rights started over 80 years ago. It was and continued to be up until today about nothing other then pure assimilation. A few lesbian feminists in a 1980's woman studies group having a 3 way never changed that. Marriage, pay equity, employment equality including military service...none of that was ever about going against social norms it was all about jumping on board. What the hell did you think you were fighting for? Now that all of those rights are granted to us we are part of the mainstream. That means that we now have a responsibility to work and function in civil society that means that your so called, ''segregated spaces'' must welcome straight people too. The answer is no, we can't have it both ways........On a side note you madam sound like a stereotypical straight man-hating lesbian feminist. ''they have plenty of space of their own'' just who the hell do you think you are? If you really think that way have a party at your house and only invite your favorite, ''gender queers.'' If a straight man were to say, ''we cant have any women at the sports bar, they have their own spaces'' you would probably ruffle your tail feathers and label them misogynists.....The so called ''oppressors'' don't give a shit about your leather fetish or whose dick I suck, so really there is no point in marching around with these stupid fares. Leather is not a sexual orientation by the way.......Also, As you note, GLBT people are not a homogenous group. I certainly do not support your kind of dated, ''radical'' self indulgent bullshit.
Mike, Winnipeg MB
08/17/12 1:46 PM EST
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They're called "safe spaces"
Calling women's events, or gay men's events, or trans events "segregated" implies that these are groups of oppresive majorities keeping a marginalized minority out of that space. That obviously isn't the case. These events are "safe spaces" where a marginalized minority is able to meet in a group where they can stop being the marginalized minority for a few hours at a time.
David K, Calgary AB
08/17/12 1:53 PM EST
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Offensive trans-ignorance and panphobia
The people "lopping off their tits and taking testosterone" would probably not classify themselves as lesbians. Bisexuals seem to be welcomed by you, but pans, no. Pansexual simply means that a person doesn't buy into the binary of gender. I am pansexual and quite attracted to people mainly for intelligence and raw attraction- I've been strongly attracted to woman, men, transwomen and transmen-- and because I chose to marry a person who happens to have been born with a penis, does not mean that I'm just some liberal pretending to be queer and claiming the word pansexual to fit in some how. Just like any married person, I still have to navigate temptation, and trust me, that temptation has very little to do with gender. If you really want to segregate, make your space private and do entrance interviews.
Stephanie, Saskatoon SK
08/17/12 2:19 PM EST
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Nancy is taking it to the extreme once again?
Nancy, I do not agree with everything you wrote here, but I do agree that the Trans and women has the right to have a segregated area for their own. I understand sometimes you need to go out of your way and push an issue to the other end of the spectrum in order to (get attention) of the readers and to stir things up a bit.. My opinion does not represent the Black Eagle as I am no longer their employee and have not been for many years. I recall once upon a time ago as their door person, explaining to a male cross dresser that he is not welcome into the bar by pointing out that "Why is it justify able for a fine dining restaurant to enforce a dress code of suit and tie and no flip flops but we (black eagle) cannot do the same" Especially both of these establishments are operating under the same law and licenses. Further more under liquor license act of Ontario, licensed establishments has the right to refuse entrance to anyone without giving a reason. It is also about liability and when there is a probable cause that an individual or groups of individual may cause a disturbance in the liquor license establishment, the onus is on the licencee to take measures to prevent that from happening. It is a business after all not a community centre. On a side note, the washrooms at the Black Eagle are not just "men's room" they are actually open to both sex.. (the 519 community centre has those too ).
Mandom Hui, Toronto ON
08/17/12 3:42 PM EST
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The LGBT community can't have it both ways
The LGBT community can't have it both ways. For years, we lobbied governments to amend human rights legislation to prohibit discrimination in employment, accommodation and the provision of goods or services on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression. Now that we achieved those legal protections in Ontario, we can't go back to the legislature to ask them to include exceptions to the anti-discrimination provisions for lesbian-only bars, restaurants and other public places. If we don't want broader society to bar us from public places (e.g., a sign that states no lesbians allowed), then we can't bar members of broader society from our public places (e.g., a sign that states lesbians only).
Jack, Toronto ON
08/17/12 7:11 PM EST
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"legal protections"
@Jack - your understanding of anti-discrimination laws is deeply flawed. By your logic, women-only gyms would be illegal (they're not), men-only bathhouses would be illegal (they're not), and it would illegal for women's shelters to not hire men (including transgendered MTF, as determined in BC re: Kimberly Nixon).
jimbob, Toronto ON
08/20/12 11:54 AM EST
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Exclusivity not Misogyny
My understanding is this: as part of the recent Leather Pride Weekend, the Eagle and HOTFF advertised a Friday night trans/womens event. Dudes then complained, feeling their space was being scarily co-opted (on a weekend no less!). Eagle Mgmt - heeding their loyal clientele's concerns, then backtracked, cancelling the event. Women and trans then threatened legal action based on "discrimination". Eagle caved and event then went forward. Seems to me L/D guys - and guys who love L/D guys - are being vilified here, force-fed this newfangled p.c. inclusiveness thing. While many of us respect women and the trans-struggle, there seems to be a certain coercion happening here where dick is being crowded out - in its own living room/play space. Commenter Mandom was correct - the bar is a business, not a community centre. The Eagle has opened up a Pandora's Box (no pun intended) - how soon before women/womyn begin (legally) demanding access to the backroom, female bartenders, female-oriented videos? Male "exclusivity" doesn't necessarily mean misogyny; I wish women/womyn would stop treating us like oppressors; some of us in the leather/denim community just wanna hang on to a little space we can call OUR own. You want your own space to express yourself and play safe? Great. Go build one to call YOUR own. Wish you all the best. As for The Eagle - a friendly once-hot establishment sending out increasingly confusing signals - here's the dirty prevailing muttered street view: Black Eagle bends over and takes it up the ass...with a strap-on. Sad. Just my 2 cents...
Skid, Toronto Ontario
08/20/12 5:47 PM EST
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Actual Facts
Wow!! Yet another person with a lot of opinions with no actual facts to back them up. Skid you couldn't have stated any farther from the truth than your post. Respectfully, I think you should do some homework before passing on such hearsay nonsense.. A lesson we all could learn from...
CJ, Oakville Ontario
08/20/12 8:10 PM EST
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@jimbob
jimbob, while the Ontario Human Rights Code does have certain limited exceptions from its anti-discrimination provisions for gender-based washrooms (section 20(1)), gender-based recreational clubs (section 20(3)), affirmative action programs (section 14(1)), etc., I think the LGBT community is always better off when it advances equality regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression. I don't think we should be banning straight people from our public places like bars and restaurants. That's my opinion. I know you have a different one. Cheers.
Jack, Toronto ON
08/20/12 10:51 PM EST
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why not have it all ways?
I totally understand why lesbians and gay men would want their own spaces and why others would want mixed spaces, why gay men's bathhouses would have a problem with non-post-op trans men, gay men looking for sex want cock, not vaginas even if the top looks like a man. If its a transsexual man who has a cock that's different. I don't see a problem with mixed bathhouses where anyone is welcome or having mixed nights but if its a gay men's bathhouse then it should be for gay men only. Surely Toronto is large enough that everyone can find a space they like and are comfortable in, for some that's mixed sexual orientation, sex or gender. For others that's all gay male or all lesbian spaces. York U used to have a Queer Night pub, but then it became so that more heteros than LGBT people were going and it became the same as any other pub night. Back when it was all queer there was a sense of community, a safe harbour and a way to identify other queers for sex and/or dating but once it became mostly hetero all of that was gone. There is no contradiction between diversity, including diverse spaces, and equality. I can understand why Pride has to be mixed, its a public event on public streets. But I see no reason why there cannot be a bar just for gay men or just for lesbians as well as mixed spaces. Face it LGBT people are a minority, most of our lives are lived in mixed environments where we're the minority, it feels good to have a space were you're not the minority surrounded by others similar to yourself. We can not only have it both ways we can have it all ways. Toronto is not a one bar or bathhouse town, there's room for everyone's preferences. Btw there are an awful lot of hetero bars and spaces which may not explicitly exclude LGBT people but they definitely make it extremely uncomfortable for LGBT people to be there. Perhaps some bars should just have hardcore gay or lesbian or whatever porn playing on all TVs at all times, that could be a way around the legal problems
Rich, Toronto Ontario
08/21/12 12:38 AM EST
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Irony
Rich, as always, you make some interesting points. But I do find it ironic that as broader society is finally becoming more open, equal and free of discrimination, there are those who want the LGBT community to become more closed, discriminatory, and segregated.
Jack, Toronto ON
08/21/12 8:21 AM EST
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Answer the charge of hypocrisy, lady
Interesting that author Nancy Irwin hit and run here. Dumps a scathing indictment of many but is too chickenshit to respond to questions. Why is she so special that she can "manouvre" in male leather space (never it seems thinking that many of the men there abhored and resented her presence) yet everyone else must segregate. She is the problem with her "i am allowed to do it but no one else". Maybe YOU, lady, ruined possible sex scenes for men by your self-entitlement and demand to be in male sex space because you are special. Obnoxious! Answer the charge of hypocrisy.
sick of bullshit, Toronto ON
08/21/12 10:45 AM EST
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Ah, now I get it.
When I came out at home in a small norther ontario town and a few years later moved to Toronto one of the first bars I frequented was the Kurbash. I loved it. It was dark, dirty and direct. Young and recently out I hated the fact that some of my female friends were told they wern't welcome. 22 years on and after reading this and all of the comments I now understand completely why both straight and gay men want their own spaces. ...and this quote - The fags had the Barracks and other bathhouses to go to. The dykes gathered at political social groups, working hard to improve the status of all women, fighting for the right to abortion, pay equity, equal access to employment and more.- Are you fucking kidding me? Yeah yeah, a few out Lesbians did all the political work while all the fags were busy fucking. fuck you.
JRoman, Toronto ON
08/21/12 1:30 PM EST
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Don't be an idiot. You know better.
"...long before trans became an issue." You mean befoere it was an issue to YOU. You may be old, but you're not that old. There was community and connection and all kinds of other good things LOOOOONG before you were even thought of. "the trend among butch women in the dyke scene has been to transition, lop off tits and take testosterone." Calling someone's transition a "trend" is totally offensive, Nancy. Then glibly describing hormone replacement therapy and surgery as to "lop off tits and take testosterone" is just fucking stupid. Also, gay men (and transfolks....you know, the people who were present at the Stonewall inn on June 28, , just for the record, have done a helluva lot of organizing over the decades. Don't be an idiot. You know better. (oh PTP, I know this is an opinion piece...but, really???)
ftm, toronto on
08/21/12 3:31 PM EST
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In defence of the Truth
Nancy It was not solely dykes who made up the”facebook army” and the group who came together to meet, but people from various sexual orientations including gay men! The Black Eagle front room is not the size of an average front room, as the space holds up to 75+ people and there is women washroom at the Black Eagle, which could arguably use a few more stall doors. Another truth: In her article Nancy mentions women and trans private parties that have been happen since 1999 that only allows women and her narrow definition of transgendered people to attend, but fails to mention that she is the organizer and benefactor of these events at Patricia Marsh’s dungeon space. I know this to be true, as my spouse and I were refused entry once, as my partner wasn’t “trans” enough for her. Also strangely added into the piece is the blatant commercial for the Rough House events, which is produced and profited by none other than Brandon Matheson chief editor of Xtra Magazine and the same person I overheard giving Nancy instructions about the upcoming article during a party on the Friday night of Leather Pride just before the women and trans event. Even more strange a week later Matheson’s Rough House sent out a press release with a noticeable change to the invitation list that now reads: “Who is Rough House for? Rough House is not a pansexual event, neither by design nor goals. Rough House was created as a BDSM space for gay leather men to foster play, sexual networking and education. Leather dykes show up at each event and are always welcome — but Rough House is decidedly targeted as BDSM space for gay leathermen.” So it seems Nancy that you really are not as welcomed as you may think, as “leather dykes show up at each event and are always welcome”, I guess as long as they know how to behave properly! “But is decidedly targeted as a space for gay leathemen” Time to read between the lines Nancy, as it is very clear they really don’t want you there, as this statement makes
Cemore, Toronto Ontario
08/21/12 5:37 PM EST
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Truth 2
as this statement makes it clear their true intent, as this is the type of comment you make when you don’t want unwanted guests! In fact according to your logic, men should be able to enjoy the space free of women and those who have lopped off their tits and are take testosterone. Seems to me this article has been obviously manufactured to line the pockets, and suit the hidden agenda of the organizers of these private for profit parties.
Cemore, Toronto Ontario
08/21/12 5:44 PM EST
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