2011 city funding for Pride Toronto likely safe
TORONTO NEWS / 'QuAIA better stay away,' says Mammoliti
Andrea Houston / Toronto / Wednesday, May 25, 2011
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Funding for Pride Toronto (PT) is conditional and will be determined after this year's parade, Councillor Giorgio Mammoliti told media following a City of Toronto executive committee meeting on May 24.

The committee heard from more than 45 speakers, 26 in support of PT, during the eight-hour meeting. In the end, no motion was brought forward that would have made funding contingent on a guarantee by PT that the group Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) take no part in any festival events, anywhere, all week.

A city manager’s report, released in April, confirmed that the phrase "Israeli apartheid" – and by extension QuAIA's participation in Pride celebrations – does not violate the city's anti-discrimination policy. Those who oppose QuAIA's participation have argued from the outset of the controversy that it does, and that, therefore, makes PT ineligible for city funding.

It’s good news for PT. But Ward 27 Councillor Kristyn Wong-Tam warns, “Council rules supreme. So at any time there could be a motion on the floor of council for a vote in June without notice. Then we would have to open it up and go through a big debate all over again, this time without public consultation.... But it seems unlikely because council voted unanimously to receive the report. I was scared because some councillors had their knives out and had made some threats.”
A huddle before the start of the executive committee meeting, May 24.
(Andrea Houston)

After the vote, Mammoliti told Xtra he still anticipates that QuAIA will make an appearance during Pride Week. Even if PT organizers aren't aware, he says, he plans to hold PT responsible.

“QuAIA better stay away," he says. "If they think they can do what they want at the expense of the taxpayer, they’re wrong.The City of Toronto isn’t going to fund an organization that wants to cause trouble. That’s not what the taxpayers want to do.... This councillor will defend the Jewish community, and I’ll do it in an aggressive way.”

Mammoliti says the festival won’t get a penny until after the event.

“Some of us will be watching carefully, and we’ll determine later whether or not they should get funds,” he says.

In fact, as Wong-Tam says, a majority of councillors would have to vote to claw back PT funding.

QuAIA members have already announced that the group will not participate in the 2011 Pride parade. PT co-chair Francisco Alvarez says he believes that QuAIA is sincere. But he refuses to provide Mammoliti with the written guarantee he demanded earlier this spring.

“In our view, they are trying to make us discriminate against a group,” says Alvarez.

Alvarez told the executive committee that without the city's support, PT could face bankruptcy and would most likely have to withdraw from WorldPride, scheduled to be held in Toronto in 2014.

“It’s really been rough on everyone, but democracy is not an easy process,” he says.
Team Pride waiting for a chance to depute on May 24.
(Andrea Houston)

Many of those who spoke against QuAIA at the meeting said they are Jewish, or were representing Jewish groups. There were several members of the Jewish Defense League, an organization dedicated to "protect Jews from anti-Semitism by whatever means necessary." The group has already promised to protest at the PT offices every Friday until Pride Week.

During the meeting, Mammoliti was joined by Mayor Rob Ford and councillors James Pasternak and David Shiner in questioning some who spoke in favour of QuAIA about hate speech.The committee was repeatedly reminded that there is nothing anywhere in Canadian jurisprudence to suggest the phrase constitutes hate speech. Also, the city manager’s report determined it doesn't break any city rules.

In fact, free speech, including the apartheid analogy, is protected under Israeli law. And the term and the validity of the analogy has been part of the discourse at all levels  – political, academic, activist, vernacular – inside and out of Israeli society and around the world for decades.

Still, at one point Mammoliti argued that even though the phrase isn’t legally hate speech, it is still “hurtful.”

“I think it’s hate speech. I don’t care what the staff report says,” he said. “We've all suffered from hate. I’m Italian. I’ve been called a wop.”

Toward the end of the meeting, Councillor Peter Milczyn spoke up in favour of free expression at Pride.

“Once you censor one group, one idea, even if you disagree with it violently, it starts a slippery slope. Because what will it be next, the next group?”

In 2010, PT received a $123,807 grant and about $250,000 worth of in-kind services from the city, including garbage cleanup and policing. According to a 2009 economic impact study conducted for PT by Enigma Research,
the festival drew $136 million in spending during the 2009 Pride celebration; $94 million of that came from visiting tourists.

“These economic benefits are exceptional,” said Enigma’s Michael Harker in a Pride Toronto press release at the time. “The estimates are considerably higher than we have seen at many similar-sized festivals and sporting events throughout North America.”




Watch QuAIA’s deputation video. QuAIA member Tim McCaskell says mayor Ford cut the video off before it was finished, deputants were each given only four minutes to speak.

QuAIA Deputation - Pride 2011 from John Greyson on Vimeo.



Read the deputation made by Nick Mulé, founder and chairperson of Queer Ontario:

City of Toronto Deputation

And Queer Ontario’s press release on the matter:

Pride Toronto Diversity and Democracy

And QuAIA member and former board member of Pride Toronto Elle Flanders' deputation.

Elle Flanders' deputation to executive committee of Toronto City Council May 24, 2011.

Read more:




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Reader Comments


 
What has Pride tORONTO COME TO??
What has Pride in Toronto come to? I have been attending Pride marches and parades in Toronto since 1971 when it was a small group of 15 on Hanlans Pt and it has always been full of various "political" groups. I have never heard of Pride "evicting" people from the festivities who may support one political group or another. . But I note that Francisco Alvarez, current Toronto Pride co-Chair verbally promised City Council "to evict QuAiA members if they show up at festival events without registering." . This was good enough for Councilor Mammolitti to withdraw or table his motion for the city de funding Pride Toronto this year because of the possible presence o Queers against Israeli Apartheid in events. . But does Alvarez have the authority to "evict" people from Pride events if they unregistered and to promise Councilors that he will do that? And what Pride events are we talking about? Of course the Sunday march,. but what of the ceremonial flag raising on the Monday of Pride week? Or the Pride co-sponsored Police Chief party on the Tuesday before Pride/ Or so many other Pride sponsored events the 10 days of Pride? Can LGBT people who may belong to QUAIA or support by wearing their logos the be evicted from the flag raising ceremony and other Pride events or is Alvarez' promise restricted to Pride events for which registration is a requirement? Is this censorship through the back door? I do not belong to Quaia but am reluctant now for the first time in 40 years to go to Pride Toronto events where the co-chair says he may be "evicting" members of the LGBT public who support or belong to one group. For the first time in 40 years I may not attend some of the Pride events, though I am not a member of QuAiA. What has such a wonderful march and celebration of the various members of the LGBT rainbow community come to when one political group can be in effect be banned from attending??
JAMEs dubro, TOROnto ONTAR
05/25/11 10:30 AM EST
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Andrea Houston on Twitter
Good morning Andrea, I have been looking forward to this article. The reason being I would very much like to show my appreciation for bringing us the up to the minute information from City Hall yesterday on Twitter @dreahouston. Thank You for that Andrea,
Mark Luciani, Toronto ON
05/25/11 10:42 AM EST
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Star inaccurate two say so I withdraw above commen
Some now are saying that the Star misquoted Alvarez (on the front page no less!) on several points (as well as the tweets from the meeting I received) and that he meant only that QuAiA would not march if not registered on Pride SUnday to march (which they said they would not do this year). Someone should contact the Star and Mamolitti and correct the record. If this revision of alvarez' statements is correct, then I withdraw my comments above about censorship of all Pride events , etc. The word "eviction" does not appear in revised text and certainly not from all Pride-related events. If he didn't agree to evict QuAIA from all Pride events for which they are not registered, then he was on firmer ground then reported by the Star and some tweets.
james dubro, toronto ontario
05/25/11 1:26 PM EST
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misinformation
Trying to say (as Xtra always does) that using the term "Israeli apartheid" is ok because it is being used in Israel is misinformation by design. If you go onto the QuAIA site there is a question/answer that goes something like this: Question: Does QuAIA accept the right of Israel to exist? Answer: States don't have rights, people do. A nice way to avoid stating that they DON'T believe that Israel should exist. HOWEVER, those leftists in Israel who are using eh term "Israeli apartheid" certainly DO believe that Israel should exist, simply not while continuing certain policies concerning the Palestinians. And THAT is the difference. QuAIA is NOT just supporting the Palestinians, it is also actively against the existence of the Jewish State. Never mind the reasons the state was created in the first place. Never mind that Palestinians (and all the rest of the Middle East) teach the most RABID anti-Semitism since Hitler (in the form of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion... a hoax perpetrated under the Czars). QuAIA refuses to deal with that "minor" part of the problem, as they also refuse to admit that in supporting the Palestinians they are also supporting Hamas, whose Charter directly calls for the killing of JEWS - not just Israelis-anywhere in the world! And afterwards, people STILL try to pretend that QuAIA isn't borderline anti-Semitic? Nice try, but the question is far more complex than Xtra wants to admit.
Ken, Paris France
05/25/11 3:47 PM EST
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Pride gets more government funding than Caribana?
Despite all the funding problems caused by the controversy over QuAIA, Pride seems to be in better shape in terms of government funding than Caribana. Today, Caribana announced that it is changing its name to Scotiabank Caribbean Carnival Toronto. See http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/05/25/bye-bye-caribana-hello-scotiabank-caribbean-carnival-toronto/ But, it is costly for Pride Toronto to subsidize the activities during Pride week of local gay musicians and LGBTTIQQ2SA (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual, Transgender, Intersex, Queer/Questioning, 2 Spirited, Allies) communities (not to mention any future antics of QuAIA). Maybe the day will come when Pride is so desperate for sponsorship dollars that it will change its name to TD Bank Pride Festival Toronto. Then, we can all say "Happy TD Bank Pride" as we continue to indulge QuAIA and their mid-East politics while diverting attention and resources from the real issues facing the LGBT community.
Nick, Toronto Ontario
05/25/11 9:43 PM EST
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I hope PT does the right thing!
I hope PT does the right thing. Because if they roll out the carpet for the proxies of Hamas, then they have turned a blind eye to the true concerns and needs of the many people that suffer from gender discrimination.
Meir Weinstein, Toronto Ontario
05/26/11 12:34 AM EST
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Mammoliti as a defender of minorities? Spare us.
I was working in the Ontario Legislature that infamous day in 1994 that George Mammoliti stood up and spoke against equality for glbt people (Bill 167) in the most vile and disgusting way possible. It was absolutely hateful; we were all sex freaks who couldn't be trusted around children, much less be allowed to adopt them. To see him attempt to speciously reinvent himself as a human rights crusader is laughable. This sorry excuse for a "man" has been in politics for over twenty years, and had he wanted to make a mark in the politics of human rights and equality, he's had plenty of opportunity before this convenient issue came along. The only thing he's interested in is his own media profile, and sucking up to the powers that be, whether Fordian or Millerite, and trying to get the Chinese to part with their endangered pandas, while travelling on our dime. If the Jewish community is looking for defenders and allies, they'll find a lot more consistent (if sometimes tough and critical) ones in our rights-seeking communities than the likes of D-list politicians like Mammoliti. He's been whipping our backs for two decades now - he's no friend of minority communities under attack, regardless of one's view on the Mid-East and QuAIA. And Rob Ford should speak up - this proxy hate campaign is cowardly and although I didn't have high hopes for his administration, I thought he might at least be forthright. and clarify that Mammoliti doesn't speak for his administration. (I think we're all wondering who does these days: he, his brother Doug, or Mammoliti? Mammoliti's only interest in battling anti-Semitism is when it can be used as a spurious means for fucking us over with allegations of hate-mongering. I'm not a huge fan of QuAIA, but good on them for withdrawing and exposing this man for what he is - an opportunistic bottom-feeder.
Alex, Toronto ON
05/26/11 3:04 AM EST
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@ Ken from Paris
Hi Ken, Just to provide some balance to your slective quote, I note that QuAIA's FAQ goes on to say: "We support any solution in which all citizens — Jewish, Arab, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise — have full legal and political equality in a secular democracy, and in which Palestinians have the right to return to their homes. We do not support any state in which different people have different rights based on their race or religion. That is why we are called “Queers against Israeli Apartheid”." To imply that anyone who expresses sympathy towards the plight of the Palestinian people must therefore automatically suppport the ideology of HAMAS is dishonest. That is equivalent to saying that anyone who is sympathetic to the plight of First Nations' peoples automatically supports the politics of the Mohawks Warrior Society. It just ain't necessarily so. Ken - you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own set of facts.
GaySolomon, Toronto Ontario
05/26/11 5:46 PM EST
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A question for Meir Weinstein
Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that QuAIA is a proxy for Hamas? Kindly cite your source.
GaySolomon, Toronto Ontario
05/26/11 5:52 PM EST
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Great work!
Congratulations and thank you to the hundreds of people who emailed or called their City Councillors to show support for Pride Toronto. We should all be proud that we fought back and won this particular fight. But the real challenges are ahead. The city is currently examining what is a 'core service' and should be funded. Many LGBTQ and HIV/AIDS services could be on the chopping block and we all need to stay involved in supporting our community organizations. From Pride to the 519, from the LGBT Youthline to the AIDS Committee of Toronto, we built these important services and many of them rely on city funding for key operating costs. Our communities have come together in the past when we've been under threat. Now is the time to speak up in support of these organizations.
Doug, Toronto Ontario
05/26/11 6:07 PM EST
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The 519 and QuAIA
I wanted to respond to Doug's message (above) calling for gays to support continued government funding for organizations like The 519 Community Centre. The 519 made several political statements in support of QuAIA during the last year. The 519 is a public building, funded by taxpayers. If the City continues to provide taxpayer funds to The 519, it should require The 519 to refrain from making any further political statements in support of QuAIA.
Jason, Toronto Ontario
05/26/11 8:55 PM EST
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Support for Hamas?
Canadian anti-war activists rub elbows with terror groups Canadian activists were out in force at a recent conference in Cairo that sought to forge closer links between the international anti-war movement and Islamic resistance groups, including several on Canada's terrorism list. By CanWest News ServiceMay 8, 2007 OTTAWA - Canadian activists were out in force at a recent conference in Cairo that sought to forge closer links between the international anti-war movement and Islamic resistance groups, including several on Canada's terrorism list. About 20 Canadians attended the March 29-April 1 Cairo Conference, the largest delegation from Canada in the event's five-year history. According to one report, it was also one of the largest delegations from outside the Middle East. In total, as many as 1,500 delegates from the Middle East, Europe, South Korea and the Americas attended. Many of the Canadian delegates were from the Canadian Peace Alliance, the country's largest umbrella peace organization, and some of its 150 affiliated groups, said peace alliance co-ordinator Sid Lacombe, who attended the conference. Groups that sent delegates include the Toronto Coalition to Stop the War, the Canadian Arab Federation, the Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid, Artists Against War, the Venezuela We Are With You Coalition, the Toronto-Haiti Action Committee, the Toronto-Egypt Solidarity Campaign and Not In Our Name - Jews Against Israel's Wars. The conference attracted representatives of at least four organizations that appear on Canada's list of terrorist organizations - Hamas, Hezbollah, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and Jamaat al-Islamiya, best known for killing 71 tourists in Luxor, Egypt, in 1997. Among the attendees were Moussa Abu Marzouk, deputy leader of Hamas, and Ali Fayad, a member of Hezbollah's politburo. According to conference literature, the main purpose of the event, sponsored by the officially banned Muslim Brotherh
Meir Weinstein, Toronto Ontario
05/26/11 9:44 PM EST
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Meir Weinstein does not have evidence
Just to summarize: I asked Mr. Weinstein if he had evidence that QuAIA is a proxy for Hamas. A proxy is defined as one who is given power to act in substitute of another. In other words, Mr. Weinstein alleges that Hamas has authorized QuAIA to act on it's behalf. As evidence of this, he gives us....nothing. According to the article cited, QuAIA is not even mentioned. Apparently, everyone who attends an event where an alleged member of Hamas attends is guilty by association, and moreover, even if you do not attend, you are just as guilty because you are a peace activist and other peace activists have attended. With all due respect Mr. Weinstein - put up or pipe down!
GaySolomon, Toronto Ontario
05/26/11 10:30 PM EST
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Solidarity vs. taxpayer funding
QuAIA supporters have said that they stand in solidarity with the opponents of gay-friendly Israel (they just don't like it when people state that the homophobic Muslim nations which are Israel's enemies also persecute gays and oppress women). And, in the last year, the left-wing leaders of certain publicly-funded groups in the Toronto LGBT community have said that they stand in solidarity with QuAIA (e.g., Black Coalition for AIDS Prevention). If the gay Left wants to engage in political campaigns against Israel, they should not be doing so under the banner of taxpayer-funded, public service organizations. If an LGBT organization receives taxpayer funding, it is because the organization applied for public funding on the grounds that it was providing social services or other services to LGBT persons. The organization did not receive those funds to support political campaigns against Israel in solidarity with the homophobic Muslim nations that are Israel's enemies.
Jason, Toronto Ontario
05/27/11 6:51 AM EST
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A question for Jason
And where is your outrage for churches which recieve tax subsidies - directly via property tax exemptions, and indirectly through charitable tax refunds to their donors - and yet support all kinds of political positions that harm the LGBT community? I find your selective outrage fascinating. Moreover, most organizations on the "left" are not in solidarity with QuAIA per se, but merely in solidarity with free speech. I know it is a subtle point, but I will make it again - one can be in support of QuAIA members' right to free speech without endorsing the content of that speech. And for the umpteenth time - QuAIA's message is not hate speech. This has been validated time and again by both the City Manager and a long list of legal experts. You may disagree with QuAIA (as is your right) but if you really believe it is hate speech, then you have legal recourse in the courts where you can make your case. Anti-QuAIA groups have not persued this option becasue they know their view is without real merit.
GaySolomon, Toronto Ontario
05/27/11 8:44 AM EST
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Meir Weinstien's glass house
Mr. Weinstein should be careful about his "guilty by association" logic. Using his logic, the JDL in Canada is a hate group. How do I get to this remarkable conclusion? Easy - I note that the JDL in the US was described as "a right-wing terrorist group" by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in 2001, and as a hate group involved in "anti-Arab terrorism" by the Southern Poverty Law Center. Therefore, any group that is associated with the JDL in the US is also a hate group. In fact, the linkages between the JDL in Canada and the US are real, whereas the linkages between QuAIA and Hamas are a paranoid fantasy. If you live in a glass house Mr. Weinstein, you ought to refrain from throwing stones.
GaySolomon, Toronto Ontario
05/27/11 10:57 AM EST
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Some gays want funding cut off
The "gay community" no longer exists per se. To anyone reading these posts, it should be shockingly clear that the gay community is in a state of civil war. The reason: leftists who give higher priority to their political views than to gay issues. Leftists who are not intellectually capable of compartmentalizing their various interests. Left radicals have won this battle because they have turned the attention of the entire city to their point of view. And they don't give a damn whether gay pride gets destroyed along the way. They are hardcore radicals. Read Flanders's deputation above. It is sickening, radical stuff. I urge the corporate world and government not to listen to her and her ilk as if they represent the gay community. These hacks do not represent the gay community. They have taken it over and are misrepresenting who they speak for. Please cut off all funding immediately.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
05/27/11 12:11 PM EST
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The right becomes unhinged
Hey Jim - that is some mess of nonsequitors you just spewed. Looks like the gay community is doing just fine. They have rallied around Pride and QuAIA has voluntarily pulled out of the parade. You seem very upset that the issue was resolved. Why should anybody listen to your plea to "cut off all funding"? Just because you don't like Flanders? Or because there are "hardcore leftist radicals" in the LGBT community? Sorry buddy - you have not made a cogent argument and frankly, you are sounding more than a little unhinged.
Sum1, Toronto Ontario
05/27/11 1:10 PM EST
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Sum1 and her friends
You apparently think the "gay community" consists of you and your 11 friends. Or maybe you think it's the 200 people you've seen at the 519. Or maybe you even think it's all the people who read Xtra. Whatever the gay community used to be, it was much larger than that. I just love how the left claims the gay community as if somehow they own it, or run it.
Jim, Toronto Ontaro
05/27/11 2:40 PM EST
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Response to GaySolomon, Part 1
GaySolomon, in response to your comments above: (1) The term Israeli Apartheid is hateful because it falsely implies all Israelis, and, by implication, all Jews, are racists. In terms of pursuing a court action on whether the term is hate speech as a matter of law, it depends on the applicable law and the applicable court. A left-wing tribunal would probably side for QuAIA and a right-wing tribunal would probably side for the opponents of QuAIA. Law is politics by other means and judges are appointed by the ruling government of the day. For me, QuAIA’s speech is hateful and has no place at the taxpayer-funded Pride parade. (2) In the last year, left-wing leaders of LGBT organizations in Toronto have stated that the LGBT community should be in solidarity with oppressed peoples like Muslims allegedly being oppressed by Israel . For example, these types of statements were made at the rally for QuAIA at The 519 on June 7, 2010. These statements were made in support of QuAIA’s political position, not just their freedom of speech. (3) If left-wing leaders of gay charities and gay tax-exempt organizations want to engage in political activities against Israel, they can. They just shouldn't expect receive taxpayer funding to do it.
Jason, Toronto Ontario
05/27/11 7:39 PM EST
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Response to GaySolomon, Part 2
(4) I do believe in removing the tax-exempt status of religious organizations in Canada. I also believe the people who donate to religious organizations should not receive a tax credit for their donation. (5) I agree that, during the battle for same-sex marriage, it was wrong for anti-gay religious organizations to continue to be tax-exempt (and to issue tax receipts for donations) even though they were engaging in political activities against same-sex marriage. But, by the same token, it was also wrong for Brent Hawkes' Metropolitan Community Church to continue to be tax exempt (and to issue tax receipts for donations) even though it was engaging in political activities in support of gay marriage. (6) I also believe that Xtra should lose its tax-exempt status as a non-profit organization since it is engaging in a media business in competition with other media businesses that do pay taxes. (7) Yes, people have freedom of speech, they just shouldn’t be surprised when their hateful or hurtful speech has consequences (e.g., being denied taxpayer funding for their political activities).
Jason, Toronto Ontario
05/27/11 7:43 PM EST
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Jason's airtight case for hate speech
Jason - a grade 5 student could deconstruct your case for hate speech in 2 minutes. Using your logic, any criticism of Canada for its treatment of First Nations's peoples would also be tantamount to anti-Canadian hate speech. Utter nonsense. But if you feel your case is good, drop your paranoid ramblings of left wing control of the judiciary, and pursue your argument in court. You won't of course, not because the judiciary is "left wing" but because your position is untenable. As for your views on the charitable tax status of churches, I could not care less. You missed my point entirely. Your outrage appears to be selectively reserved for any organization that supports the free speech rights of those with whom you disagree. I suggest you brush up on your critical thinking skills and logic. If you are a grade 4 student or younger, then please disregard my last bit of advice as you will soon be covering this in your course curriculum.
GaySolomon, Toronto Ontario
05/28/11 8:34 AM EST
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More personal attacks from QuAIA
GaySolomon, you asked me questions. I answered them. If you now want to personally attack me, I'm not surprised. In the last 18 months, I have been subject to a number of personal attacks by QuAIA supporters both in person and online. I find them to be some of the most vile, hateful people that I have ever met. And, I don't want my tax dollars used to support their hate.
Jason, Toronto Ontario
05/28/11 10:37 AM EST
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Jim - Who is part of the gay community?
Most folks I have met in the LGBT community tend to be progressive. I do not for a minute pretend that everyone who identifies as LGBT is also progressive - as your existence apparently demonstrates. Ms. Flanders does not claim to speak for everyone in the LGBT community, nor do I. Seems you are upset that there are few voices of leadership within the LGBT community that represent your point of view. Not surprising really Jim - most LGBT folks are not unhinged right wing nutters who spew nonsequitors online...but if you want us to designate you as the unofficial spokesperson for this subsection of the community, then consider this post as my endorsement of you for the honour.
Sum1, Toronto Ontario
05/28/11 10:39 AM EST
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@ Jason
An answer is not that same thing as a congent response. You have provided "answers" to my points, but they are not cogent. When you are capable of a cogent response, I will favour you with a reasoned response. In the meantime, I apologize for any offence my remarks might have caused you. I honestly thought they were the product of an immature intellect.
GaySolomon, Toronto Ontario
05/28/11 10:51 AM EST
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@Sun1
Ah - "unhinged right wing nutters". And there it is. I'd say the more unhinged poster is the one who starts insulting posters she disagrees with. And how is this comment "inclusive"? I (like 90% of the ordinary gay men who make up the gay community) are indeed what this community is all about, you know. Lesbians, trans people, leftist radicals, even self-hating Jews obsessed with Israel -- you are all welcome to be part of our community, but please stay on the fringe where you belong. And start your own parade. Call it "Queer Outrage" or something. And did you read Flanders's submission. She starts with these very words: "I am speaking to you today as a member of the Toronto lesbian and gay community." She has no right to use these words in her diatribes against Israel. She is misrepresenting who she is speaking for. She does not speak for the gay community and should stop saying she does. She and Tim are doing their best to destroy pride in the pursuit of their radical politics. Stop it.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
05/28/11 11:41 AM EST
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@GaySolomon; @sun1
What is it about you that make you mount personal attacks on posters you disagree with? This is a gay news outlet for all gay people, icluding those who disagree with you. How are your comments "democratic"? How does that promote "freedom of expression"? How is that conducive to "community"? By the way, try hard (really hard) not to respond to this with a personal attack. We're all members of the same community, theoretically. If there is still such a thing as a gay community, we should be able to talk about gay issues without hissing insults.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
05/28/11 11:49 AM EST
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More condescension from QuAIA
Gay Solomon, I note your condescending remarks. Happy Pride.
Jason, Toronto Ontario
05/28/11 4:30 PM EST
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@ Jim
Jim you do not get to choose who is a member of Toronto's LGBT community and who is not. Flanders was perfectly correct in saying she is member of the lesbian and gay community, she is no doubt a lesbian after all. In fact all LGBT people are members of Toronto's LGBT community. I don't recall anyone claiming to speak for the entire community, except perhaps yourself when you claim to represent 90% of it, which I simply don't believe. Before hand I had thought when you referred to the gay community you meant to include lesbians and bisexuals as well but your previous comment makes it clear that the only gay community you believe in is gay men only but you oh so graciously "allow" lesbians, trans folks, and leftists to be fringe members at best. Why is it Jim that you can only accept an LGBT community so long as its overwhelmingly dominated right wing gay males? Face it Jim the majority of LGBT people are left leaning, just look at the number of right wing politicians elected in the riding containing a majority of LGBT people, whether federal, provincial, or municipal. That's right not a single right politician has been elected in the LGBT dominated ridings in Toronto, so what is it that makes you think 90% of gay men are also right wing? Why don't you start a right wing group for gay men? That way at least you can say that you speak for them instead of insisting that you speak for 90% of the LGBT community which is an utter joke. Face it Jim, you don't get to decide who is member of the LGBT communities and who isn't. It takes some gall to claim that Flanders isn't a member of the gay and lesbian community, and even more gall for you to claim that you speak for 90% of that community.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/28/11 5:42 PM EST
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@Rich
You're not even reading my post apparently. She says she's a member of the "lesbian and gay community". That's the very first sentence in her submission. (Notice how she felt compelled to include the "gay" in there. She didn't use "lesbian" or "queer" or even "LGBT")...........My point is that she doesn't have to include that information at all. She doesn't speak for us. Who elected her? What possible connection is there between "gay" and "Israel". It's just an irrelevant point. It's like saying "I am ginger and I hate Israel." Other gingers are going to think WTF? ..........And no-one is claiming that 90% of the gay community is made up up of right-wing men. That's not what I wrote at all. Of course all gay people have left-wing views when it comes to gay rights. This is an issue we can all agree on. Something that binds the community. (BTW I have never voted Tory in my entire life.)..........But as for the rest of it: the composition of our community mirrors society as a whole. It's completely wrong to think we all live in "gay ridings" and vote only for the NDP. We are not all radical leftists. Sorry, but we're not. ..........I don't want to get into the murky area of demographics, but I just want to reiterate my view that the gay community is made up mostly of ordinary gay men. In any case, I do not feel that I personally am in the same community as angry leftist radicals who attack Israel. Please stop doing this in the name of my community. And my feeling is that, like the Canadian public as a whole, the overwhelming majority of us (Jewish or not) support Israel. So for those of you who are overwhelmed by feelings regarding Israel: please keep it outside the gay arena and stop trying to force this issue down the throats of everyone else in the gay community. Some of you are using the gay community as a vehicle for expressing radical views that have nothing to do with b
Jim, Toronto Ontario
05/29/11 2:31 AM EST
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@Jim
Jim, Flanders is a member of the gay and lesbian community whether you like it or not, please point out where she said she was speaking on behalf of all LGBT communities. She also mentioned she's a part of the Jewish community too, does that imply that she's speaking for every Jew in Toronto too? Am I not allowed to say that I belong to Toronto's LGBT community because my views differ from yours and I can't speak for every single LGBT person? Pride is for all the LGBT communities in Toronto, LGBT groups shouldn't be banned from Pride because their views upset some people, there has always been something to upset people at Pride whether its TNTMEN or the drag queens or simulated sex or whatever. Pride is inherently political, even in these days where still just being out and visible is still a political act challenging the heterosexist norm in our society. Besides which all of this is beside the point since QuAIA isn't marching in the Pride parade this year anyways.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/29/11 5:38 PM EST
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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
@Ken, Paris. I agree with your comments, and think that any hate speech is inappropriate, especially if it involves in any way setting people up to be killed or the annihilation of a race. It is irresponsible on the part of LGBT to be associated with a group such as QuAIA and they should not receive tax payer "hand outs"; for this. I also agree with Jim, the gay community is a very diverse group of people, there are a growing number of pro-life LGBT for example, please see this newstory of world surfing champion pro-life lesbian and her views of women and children: http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/womens-world-surfing-champion-boycotts-china-over-forced-abortions There are also members of LGBT who are quite "progressive" and returning to their Faiths and advocating sobriety/chastity (thus no longer at risk of HIV/AIDS and other STD's. There is even an example of a Jewish group that helps people in this area who want help: http://www.jonahweb.org/index.php So there really should be no discrimination, towards religious groups/Faith groups since there are people converting: http://www.zacchaeus.ca/mario.html Please don't discriminate against people who have suffered or are suffering in the same way as you are.
Sylvia, Calgary AB
05/29/11 6:14 PM EST
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@jim whoever you are...
Jim, is this some freakish vendetta of yours? We've never met but you talk about me an awful lot, as if we have. Have we? Is that you Martin?! ;) You've never stated who you are, you just spew a lot of hate towards me. That's not very brave or honest. But anyhow, the facts: I said I was "a" member of the LGBT community. like you. I never claimed to speak for anyone, not for you, or others, I speak for myself and my views. As do you. Do you pick on me in particular because we are both Jewish and I have a different opinion than yours? Is that so threatening that you need to discredit me at every turn? Why can we not have different opinions on what is happening in Israel and how it treats its citizens and those under its occupation? We know I grew-up in Israel, we know I speak Hebrew, we know I'm a lesbian, we know I've run the Inside Out LGBT film fest, worked on the board of Pride, we know I was a founder of JFAFL (Jewish Feminist Anti-Fascist League), worked to free soviet Jews in the 70's, organized the human rights contingent at Pride, and all sorts of other "radical, sickening" things you accuse me of (what is the "radical sickening" part exactly?) so we know a lot of things about me, but still I only claim to speak for myself as 'a' member of all those organizations. when I speak for QuAIA, however, it is as a designated spokesperson. But my deputation was simply in my own name and as 'a' member of many communities. just like you. You claim on the other hand that you know 90% of the queer community to be ordinary gay men like yourself. oops, redo the math on that one, there are dykes and trans who make up more than 10%. but maybe that's all we count for in your mind...? C'mon Jim, what's with the hate?
elle flanders, toronto ON
05/30/11 1:03 PM EST
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@jim PS
those "sickening radicals" like Tim, won your gay rights to drugs during the AIDS crisis and championed other sickening things like Gay charter rights. Sick indeed!
elle flanders, toronto ON
05/30/11 1:12 PM EST
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@Elle
Elle, I don't want to respond to your hateful posts. You and Tim essentially are responsible for this entire Pride funding fiasco. I can see you are a very political person but try not to destroy Toronto's gay community while you're at it.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
06/01/11 5:01 PM EST
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I distinctly
recall Francisco Alvarez, current Toronto Pride co-Chair on TV presenting the delusion that people of one group would be non-participants within the context of funding for pride, and how pride will go bankrupt essentially without the money from the city. Cut to Tim McCaskall who then dismissed that stupidity in one sentence. What a digusting mess. Pride indeed. Doggy doo doo more like it.
tim, toronto on
06/01/11 10:43 PM EST
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Ford saves us?!
Its a crazy world when the gay community needs a right wing Mayer to save our parade from the clutches of bigots. But thats exactly what happened! Lets just hope they saty away.
Queerboy, Toronto Ontario
06/02/11 8:41 AM EST
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