Knives out for PTS director
NEWS / Members angry after AGM once again fails to meet quorum
Bradley Turcotte / Ottawa / Wednesday, September 26, 2012
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The grand marshal of Capital Pride 2012 has called for the resignation of Pink Triangle Services executive director Claudia Van Den Heuvel following a failed PTS annual general meeting Sept 25.
 
T Eileen Murphy is angry because members were not notified that their memberships had expired, which meant the AGM was once again unable to meet quorum. An AGM scheduled on Aug 26 also did not meet quorum.
 
“I think we should dissolve the whole organization, starting with the ED. It’s time to get rid of the ED and stop this dictatorship,” Murphy says. “We’ve had two resignations of the last two presidents, and there’s no reason for that except the ED. The ED is setting up these bylaws to have more power.”
 
Several key community members voiced concerns ahead of the meeting about proposed bylaws they say would give the executive director too much control over financial and board decisions. Five PTS board members have resigned from PTS in the past year.
 
Lyle Borden, who sat on the PTS board for six years, says Van Den Heuvel feels she does not have to be responsible to the board.
Capital Pride 2012 grand marshal T Eileen Murphy (pictured) says PTS ED Claudia Van Den Heuvel should resign. Several young PTS supporters say members are divided along generational lines.
(File photo)

“You have to have accountability of the ED to the board. Not the other way around or watered down,” he says.

Several voting members, including Murphy; Capital Pride's director of community relations, Joanne Law; and former PTS board member Gary Leger, walked out of the meeting.
 
PTS outreach worker Lindsay Ly says it was an immature response to what she thinks is a conflict of opinion.
 
“It’s really important to talk about these things . . . Because people walked out, there was no opportunity for dialogue,” Ly says. “As people who know PTS and as people who supported it at one point, I think that those values in their mind should come above little petty things.”

Ly says the discourse is an example of members being divided along generational lines. 
 
Acting president Jessica Freedman says the failure to reach quorum disappointed the board, especially because members had several pressing issues to discuss.
 
“I look forward to the next AGM. It is certainly my hope and expectation that there will be a full and complete consideration of the issues that face the association,” Freedman says. “We’re all working very hard -- the board, the executive director and her staff -- to do the work that we’re entrusted to do for the queer community in Ottawa.”

But Leger says none of this matters if the organization can’t reach quorum at its AGM.
 
“Claudia talked about numbers [in a previous Xtra article.] While her financial numbers are great, they are funded way too heavily by the city on one side and not enough from corporate or community. Yet what she needs to be careful of is her numbers that count. Where were her numbers today?” Leger asks. “The numbers that counted today were not at that table. Otherwise, she’d have quorum.”
 
A representative from United Way Ottawa, one of PTS’s main funders, observed the contentious meeting. But Barry Keegan, United Way Ottawa’s manager of media relations and communications, says he can’t comment on discord at PTS.
 
The board of directors will hold a special meeting on Oct 1 to discuss how to move forward. The next AGM is planned for Nov 28. It will be the third attempt to reach quorum this year.
 
Listen to an audio file of the AGM below.  


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Reader Comments


 
Can't people have a mature conversation?
This is a bit of a hack job. As a member I receieved multiple emails leading up the AGM about the membership. Also I would like to point out that memberships are the responsibility of the Board of Directors AND that the change to those by-laws that created that was during the time that Denis and Lyle were on the Board of Directors. I am disappointed that so many elders of the community acted in such a childish way as quorum would have been reached if they didn't walk in and out. Also what does Gary (someone who works at a fairly oppressive bank TD) know about the numbers of non-profit community centres. In terms of private donations PTS is quite well funded by the community. Also Eilieen is obviously unaware that on most policy and governance boards of non-profits presidents generally only spend a year or two. The problem is the historical dysfunction of the board of directors not the ED who has done amazing things for PTS.
Jade, Toronto ON
09/26/12 7:29 PM EST
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Memberships and notice
I also received a number of notices about the upcoming AGM. Including a notice about the membership deadline... It also says in that notice that memberships expire immediately following the AGM... Where is the confusion people? I'm really not understanding why Xtra is reporting things in such a misleading way.
Mel, Ottawa ON
09/26/12 8:21 PM EST
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Violation of privacy
Bradley, at what point did you ask permission and receive unanimous consent from everyone present in the room to be recorded and posted on line? Not to mention that the recording took place in private room reserved for a private meeting. At no point during the recording have you mentioned that you were recording.To the point about notice, there was a newsletter that went out went out to everyone on our mailing list went out on July 22, 2012. It was then again mentioned in a notice went out on September 5, 2012 for the board application which mentions that the membership closed on August 26, 2012 and that notice needed to be submitted 30 days previous to the AGM. Not to mention that Eileens snarky "kiddies" comment is offensive, ageist and immature. Again this is just another perfect example of unethical, yellow journalism by Xtra and in particular Bradley.
Kayla, Ottawa ON
09/26/12 10:15 PM EST
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Bylaws
-I posted some of this in the other article... seems to be relevant here too. - In a recent article on TypeQ or Xtra one of the Bruce House board members was quoted as saying "the ED is the final authority on things that are operational"... I believe there is no difference to what PTS is proposing. From what I read the ED is still responsible to the Board of Directors. The board governs the organization through a strategic plan, performance reviews, policy development, approving a budget, etc... So what am I missing? It also says the ED executes any decision of the Board of Directors. I think this whole 100% control is a red herring and Xtra (and some readers) bought it: hook, line and sinker. Also, if the real issue is that "manage" was taken out of the description of the Board, why not present that? Perhaps the Board and ED would be open to that revision without challenge. But, we don't know that because people came with their preconceived notions. I'm really disappointed with so much of what is happening.
M.K., Ottawa ON
09/27/12 1:00 AM EST
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Board Members
In a number of comments there is significant aggression directed at the ED for a number of things - mostly that she doesn't work well with the Board, while that might be true it begs further analysis. The majority of the Board works well with Claudia (or they wouldn't have stayed)... so it isn't friction with Claudia and ALL BOARD MEMBERS, but a handful. From my understanding talking to some people who were at the AGM last night, all of you came together, you sat in the same corner of the room, and you left together, but most importantly you are all older gay men (Not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm getting there too). The point that I am trying to make is whether the conflict is about politics (of age, gender or whatever). From what I've heard Claudia is a young woman and it's well known that men don't like to see a woman in a leadership position IMHO. Could there be some sexism at play here? I would also like to point out that Claudia isn't the first executive director to have a difficult time in this organization. In 2009 the ED resigned for unknown reasons (though that story was largely left untouched) and in 2005 the ED and the entire staff resigned because of conflicts with the Board - I believe the words were "micro-management". I don't think it takes a genius to see that change is needed and this need came way before Claudia entered this organization. I think the Board and Claudia were on the right track with the changes, and perhaps if those that walked out had stayed there would have been discussion to achieve what has plagued this organization for a decade.
M.K., Ottawa ON
09/27/12 1:08 AM EST
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comments on this issue
I had fully intended to attend this AGM, primarily because I received the copy of the proposed bylaw amendments...i was quite surprised actually. I was not able to attend last minute due to medical issues.... i understand from several who attended the meeting that Quarum was not met, and that the ED left...apparently to pick up minutses or somethnig they had forgotten ....it was after about 15 minutes or so people left, so in the event anyone was contacted to come to the meeting to make quarum, with those leaving, quarum would still not have been met...and by 7pm, as noted by a member who stayed.... I don't think unkindly comments needed to be made about anyone attending the AGM regarding their age. That is unfortunate, I remember one of the things the ED and I shared in a recent FB diaglogue is the importance of RESPECT. So I hope, that as relations continue, in trying to work out some of the "issues" if everyone could just keep in mind, to show each other respect...not make it in any way personal, and just stay with the issues and concerns. The ED has relayed to me, since I too have some concerns with the ED's direction of the organization to come to her with my questions and concerns...So I will conclude here, that given there is a new AGM date, this will give us all more time to dialogue, sort things out, and I hope, keep in mind, to do so, with the utmost respect. This issue of recording during AGMs...Did the journalist present makes him/herself known at the beginning? I know that the meeting was not "in camera" and according to the ED in an earlier conversation there was nothing to hide...I had also contacted Xtra as I felt queer media needed to be present. I wish comments about the "age of persons" would stay out of the debate. PTS was started by all ages for all ages. It is supported from the money of all ages. It has sponsors of all ages...and keep in mind the words "Due Diligence, Transparency, and Accountabilit
sylvia martin, ottawa ON
09/27/12 1:58 AM EST
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just listened to the audio clip
I'm really glad I did just listen to this clip. It's unusual that the Chair of an AGM would wait about 19 minutes ... usually if there isn't quarum by the 5th minute, the meeting ends. There is no need to motion and second regarding dates...there is no meeting. There is no quarum. So Rules of Order don't apply. Also, and respectfully so, to Madame Chair, who I heard her say, she was also acting President: That PTS is an open organization. Open organizations then usually make sure to post in all media, AGM times and dates etc, for the community it serves to have the option to attend. Perhaps an oversight, so hopefully all media including 24 hrs and Metro will include the next AGM info. Also,when comments, yes and strongly so, were being emphasized regarding the credibility of the ED, Madame Chair, did have cause to reply but in doing so, I felt took sides on a few issues which for me, meant, Mdme Chair no longer was being neutral, and this would constitute somewhat, a bias, and I know this was a difficult non-meeting...and given Mdm. Chair as acting Prez who also applied for position as President to be voted on...Conflict of Interest on technicality..perhaps next AGM bring in an outside fascilitator to Chair the AGM and any special meeting...especiallay considering the controversial aspects...it will be difficult to remain neutral given there is a breakdown, so it seems with current/past/resigned board members and the controversial aspects of the proposed bylaw amendments. 19 min. and the ED had not returned, and no quarum...meeting should have been called off after 5 minutes. Mdme Chair, it did sound at one point around the 18 minute point that you hoped those present would not leave. Almost comes across like, u still believe/want quarum to be met to carry out the bylaws noted a few times prior how imp. they were. & Mdm Chair, I heard no one else presnt argue why it was imprtant to pass the bylaws only that by mbrs familiar with bylaws and their
sylvia martin, ottawa on
09/27/12 2:56 AM EST
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Respect?
Certainly, Sylvia, this post can't be what you meant by respect. There is no reason to be condescending towards anyone for their chairing of a meeting. As you very succinctly pointed out, this was not even a meeting - so dispense with the madame chairs - you're just making yourself look like a bully. It seems you and I have very different understandings of what respect looks like - or was that just a ploy to gain "sympathy" for your ensuing attack? The chair and acting president wasn't out of line in trying to keep quorum (it's spelt quorum by the way). Simply look at the criticism of the articles for not reaching quorum. In my opinion she did her job. It should also be noted that it's not uncommon for organizations to deliver an information session either in place of an AGM or while waiting for quorum. Lack of quorum is also common in this apathetic world we live in. Think of the community centre meetings, pride meetings, and I'm sure there are others. There is unnecessary attack on PTS for not making quorum. The community needs to get more involved! It can't be up to PTS to make sure you are there - it's up to all of us to be there. If you don't know when things are, join their mailing list, join their facebook page (and if you don't have internet access, well you're not reading any of this anyways!). So Sylvia, how about you dispense with the showboating and actually hold true to your words... Re; accountability, transparency and respect and all... In all due respect of course ;) You know sometimes it just takes one of us elders to hold another in balance. I really hope you don't see my comments as an attack to you, I just want the respect you spoke of to be held true.
M.K., Ottawa ON
09/27/12 4:13 AM EST
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Respect and Leadership
Sylvia, I think us elders have a role to play here (by the way we have crossed paths a few times) and that role is one of leadership towards respect and tolerance for a diversity of opinions. There is no right opinion unless that is a consideration for all perspectives (I think I'm being a bit hippy now). I would certainly like to see a positive outcome in this and I hope you do as well. So let's lead the way together in showing respect, togetherness and community and confront this in-fighting that has plagued our community for so long. What do you say?
M.K., Ottawa ON
09/27/12 4:40 AM EST
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Mud slinging should be kept out of journalism
Sylvia: Though you make your knowledge of how these sorts of things go fairly clear, you're making a few false leaps, and the words you're choosing to use leave a certain impression: 'Open organizations then usually make sure to post in all media, AGM times and dates etc, for the community it serves to have the option to attend. Perhaps an oversight, so hopefully all media including 24 hrs and Metro will include the next AGM info.' If open organizations usually make sure to post in all media, it isn't an expectation, so not doing it cannot be an oversight. With that line of thought, you're making accusation that people are not doing their due diligence. All of this sounds like mud slinging at PTS, and more directly, at Claudia. PTS's executive director IS Claudia, and Claudia is the longest standing PTS ED in its history; Claudia keeps being attacked by members of the community FOR DOING HER JOB, and doing it damned well. Not only is this bullying, it is causing friction in a community which needs to be held together. It saddens me that people are taking this kind of approach to the ED of the only community centre dedicated to serving our community. Shame.
Jean Yves, Montreal QC
09/27/12 7:58 AM EST
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things change/must change
I'm the acting president of PTS; I chaired the meeting, such as it was. I have been active in PTS for almost 9 years. I have sat on the Board for 2 terms of 3 years each. I've been a library volunteer, group founder/facilitator, among other contributions. I argue for PTS to be inclusive and open. Yet, it was only with the Bylaw change in effect at the last AGM (passed before that) that I was able to join the Executive--previously, it had been a self-appointing clique; I was never invited to join. Up until the last AGM, all business of the Board took place in the Executive; when I joined, suddenly, it ceased to have practical existence. I have made it my purpose over the years to learn the way the organization works, who does what, who the volunteers and service-users are, how this has changed. I have never understood the ideology, espoused by my predecessors, that WE (as Directors) do not need the services of the agency, but WE are obligated to provide services for THEM. My immediate predecessor argues "We don't need to be a part of the organization to have a say." For all that I am his age--possibly older--I simply do not understand the attitude that doing something years ago means I know the way things are NOW. That we must keep ourselves separate from THEM. I work NOW. I'm so proud to work with volunteers, service-users, staff, everyone who wants to work NOW to continue changes too important to abandon--whose abandonment means death for PTS. There is so much talk now about rules, respect and power grabs, yet my arguments for restraint and respect for the rules had been ignored. I would have thought, given conflict inevitably flows from the ambiguity and profound flaws in the Bylaws, and Board practice for the time I have been a Director, that instead of quitting in the middle of struggle, people would stay and work for change. I do this. Claudia does this. I'm so proud to work with her, and all those who choose to work together NOW. Choose to jo
Jessica, Ottawa Ontario
09/27/12 10:25 AM EST
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Our community is a very sad place.
I have never attended an AGM before, and was shocked hear the general disrespect everyone had toward each other’s opinion and time. The youth group uses a stuffed dog to indicate who is speaking and that everyone else should listen – perhaps it’s a tool we could borrow for the next meeting. I’m white, cis, have a post secondary education, a sustainable income, a home and an incredibly loving family. I feel like a part or most of my identity rings true to a lot of the policy makers of the organization, so I encourage everyone to check their privilege before deciding if they are truly representative of the clients we serve, and can make decisions to address all of the needs members of our community face. There is a delicate balance between needing donors, and using their privileged opinions to guide PTS. We’re not all perfect, and we don’t all have the ability to make decisions to better suit the needs of the queer community. That’s why we must listen to each other’s stories and work together. That includes across different organizations. And finally, there is something incredibly triggering about watching five men use aggressive tone and language to address their concerns about PTS to the Acting President. The room was full of very different people, all with very different experiences. Please be considerate of the people you share spaces with.
RL, Ottawa ON
09/27/12 2:29 PM EST
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I really like PTS
I would very much hate to see PTS dissolved as I really like this organization. I think it would be very sad to dissolve it when it is financially doing well and I do not think corporate funding is the way to go (mentioned in above article). We have way to much respect for corporations. I think PTS provides a vital service to the GLBTTQ community that no other organization does. PTS provides discussion groups where people can go who are shy or who have just come out of the closet and they can make friends and gain self confidence at their own pace. They can also listen and learn from discussion group members. No other organization provides such safe space for shy or new people. Some other organizations meet mostly in pubs which is not a healthy place to meet and also can be too expensive for some people. At PTS you don't have to drink alcohol or pay for food. PTS also offers councillors, educational programs, a library and community outreach. I think there would be a huge hole in the Ottawa GLBTTQ community if PTS were to go. Please people come out to the AGM and give your support to a vital organization in our Ottawa community.
Mike J, Ottawa Ontario
09/28/12 7:55 PM EST
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I want to support PTS
Speaking as a privileged middle class middle aged gay white male, I would just like to say that I do not base my decisions on which charities to support or participate in solely on how much they help me personally or my demographic, since that by definition would not be charity. Also that I think it is very sad that so many of these comments seem to be becoming inter-generational. I and every gay person I know wants to help queer youth and other disenfranchised queer groups. I just want to make sure that I do so via an organization that is responsible and well managed.
Scott Mellon, Ottawa Ontario
09/30/12 9:54 AM EST
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PTS Numbers and By-laws
Jade stated: "In terms of private donations PTS is quite well funded by the community". The last PTS financisal report to the Canada Revenue Agency for 2011 reports that private donations were 19% of PTS revenues (11% receipted), while Government and other charies made up 79% of revenues. So, you decide. The report also notes that PTS only spends 40% of its revenue on charitable work as opposed to spending 60% on fundraising, administration and management. Not a very good balance in my view. It's sad that PTS again could not even get a quorum of 25 members. It may be that there is not much effort to keep existing members. I was a member from founding, until 2011. I never quit PTS, but I received no notice of AGM in 2011, and no letter or e-mail reminder about membership. Finally, just one comment on the proposed by-laws changes, I can't figure out why Pink Triangle Services would want to change its well-known name to just the abbreviation, PTS? Besides, there will likely be costs to get amended incorporation documents, such as supplementary letters patent. I fail to see any reason to change the name.
Denis LeBlanc, Ottawa ON
09/30/12 3:17 PM EST
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RE: PTS Numbers
However, you fail to compare that with other organizations of similar size which completely puts it out of context. Or previous PTS history. Also the name change decision was made by the board a few years ago to recognize PTS's history, but also to be more inclusive to more queer communities.
Jade, Toronto ON
09/30/12 4:49 PM EST
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Numbers and Name
As Jade from Toronto feels I should have ptovided more information, from the PTS history, here goes. In the year 2000, receipted donations accounted for $46,000 compared to just $21,888. So, in the last 10 years, receipted donations from individuals in our community have fallen by more than 100%. In 2000, PTS spent over $55,000 directly on charitable work with about $23,000 spent on management, administration and fundraising. The proportion of money spent by PTS non its charitable work has decreased drastically over the past 10 years. These figures are all from the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) website. As to the name change, changing the name Pink Triangle Services to PTS would not, in my opinion, make the group "more inclusive to more queer communities". The Pink Triangle is a powerful historic symbol for all LGBT communities. Besides, if the Board had really changed the name to PTS "years ago", the CRA website would list that name and not Pink Triangle Services on its website. Charities are required to report any name change to the CRA without delay, otherwise it could lose its charitable status and/or face heavy fines. Besides, any name change would not be legal until the By-laws and Letters Patent were changed to reflect the change. I sure hope the group is still issuing official tax receipts under the name Pink Triangle Services!
Denis LeBlanc, Ottawa on
09/30/12 8:11 PM EST
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A more detailed look at finances
Denis Leblanc, you are right in your analysis, though perhaps a bit over-simplified... there are significant difference in the receipted donations between 2000 and 2011, however, financial analysis does deserve greater scrutiny than observing to points on a plot. Some interesting points: 2001 saw the most receipted donations in the history (at least available on CRA) of PTS with $98K. This number dipped sharply by 2004 recorded at only $31K. It plummeted again in 2007 to an abysmal $8K. Since then the number has remained fairly consistent at about $20K. Regarding the charitable work: with further scrutiny it seems the amounts have fluctuated throughout the years. In 2003 the divide was nearly 50/50 between chartable and admin expenses, again the divide was about 50/50 in 2008, while in 2009 only about 10% was recorded as charitable. Is it reasonable to assume that PTS did away with nearly all its charitable work in that year or is it more likely to assume that depending on the combined interpretation skills of auditors, bookkeepers, executive directors and boards these numbers might be recorded in slightly different ways? Perhaps instead of attacking blindly, we can treat those who work at PTS with a bit more dignity and respect as your approach does nothing but make you look like a bully - a common theme it seems from my generation.
M.K., Ottawa ON
09/30/12 11:26 PM EST
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Further analysis
Another interesting financial note: Between the years 2004 and 2008 the net equity of PTS dipped from about $125K to -$7K... I think if we are to scrutinize the management capabilities of PTS, we should probably look to see who was responsible during those years. How any organization would allow that to happen... you say you were a member during those years Denis, could you speak to this? Another interesting point, since 2008, the net equity has risen by $15K but still a long way off from a healthy equity. Given the steady growth of recent years, I'm curious to see what the 2012 balance sheet will look like.
M.K., Ottawa ON
09/30/12 11:52 PM EST
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Have all the "haters" left now?
There was some good discussion while the members were waiting to see if quorum could be achieved. However, a real low point in the dicussion is when someone (and I cant' be sure but it sounds like it may have been a member of the Board)refers to dissenting voices as "haters"!! If that was a member of the Board, then that person should do the honourable thing and resign immediately. If it was not a member of the Board, then the Board should have admonished the member who made the statement. In any organization there will always be dissenting voices. Dissenting opinion is just as valid as supporting opinion. All opinions need to be heard if an organization is to represent the community at large.
Ted Chartrand, Ottawa ON
10/01/12 1:00 PM EST
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Numbers, again
First, I have been polite throughout this debate and simply provided information for everyone to consider. I really do not appreciate being labelled a bully by M.K in his post at 11:26pm. The guidelines for comments here state: "Do not get personal and do not defame others". Clearly this is what M.K. does in his reply to my posts. Second, the added detailed information provided by MK is very well presented and adds significant facts to this debate. Unfortunately, even though I was a member, I was not on the Board. I can only guess that the equity stopped growing and donations dropped when, about 2004-04, PTS stopped doing its giant annual fundraiser-gala at the Museum of Natural Sciences. I believe that the Gala-fundraiser used to raise up to $50,000 annually for PTS. Mind you, it was mostly attended by middle class LGBT who donated at least $200 per ticket and therefore it wasn't a very "inclusive" event.
Denis LeBlanc, Ottawa ON
10/01/12 1:03 PM EST
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Make your voice count and join PTS
I urge all LGBT in Ottawa to become members of Pink Triangle Services - it is your community organisation. PTS still has the potential to contribute significantly to our community. Become a member and actively participate in decision-making at the next AGM on November 28th. Join before October 28 if you want your vote at the AGM. It's easy to join for a $10 fee at: http://ptsottawa.org/about-us/membership/ If you are interested in running for the Board, you must be a member at least 30 days before the meeting and write to the Board with your qualifications/goals; this has to be received by the Board at least 14 days before the AGM.
Denis LeBlanc, Ottawa ON
10/01/12 1:46 PM EST
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AGM date
Hello everyone, please note that the correct day of the AGM is Thursday, November 29 (exact time and location to be determined). Xtra - please amend that date with your article to avoid any confusion. Thanks!
Claudia, Ottawa ON
10/01/12 10:21 PM EST
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PTS AGM a private meeting??
I wish to offer comment on Kayla Miller's (a PTS employee) contention above that Xtra violated privacy by taping the group discussion at the failed AGM of September 25. Ms. Miller contends that the AGM was a private meeting held in a private space. I disagree. We must remember that PTS funding comes primarily via public monies, and, it has been granted non-profit, charitable status. These characteristics require PTS to operate with the utmost transparency and accountability, not only to its members, but, to the community at large, including taxpayers. This would require of necessity then that an AGM be open to all who have an interest in PTS' mission and operations. Further, with respect to the press, we are fortunate to have press that covers lgbtq events. The press must enjoy the freedom to report on these events. The reporter in this case, based on the recording provided as part of the article, gave a factual account of the discussions through the article. The press is not required to simply parrot what an organization would have them say. The press can only truly serve the community when it reports the facts in a matter. It is clear that the Executive Director, PTS,is following this story and the resulting comments. I would ask her to confirm that the upcoming PTS Annual General Meeting will be open to all who wish to attend, including the press.
Ted Chartrand, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 6:38 AM EST
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Ted
Dear Ted. Based on the Ontario Press Council Code of Conduct: 'Avoid undercover or other surreptitious methods of gathering information except when traditional open methods will not yield information vital to the public. Use of such methods should be explained as part of the story.'. So, on that, the recording is unethical. What is on the recording is irrelevant, if it was gathered using surreptitious means. Your contempt for both PTS and the ED, Claudia, has already been made evident. Your contempt toward the rest of the staff is becoming apparent. I'm also not sure why the recording was relevant to the article. The article itself is half-assed reporting and when you read the code of conduct of the Ontario Press Council, the 'reporter' did not act ethically, and should be reprimanded. If not, then Xtra has lost what little credibility it still has within the community.
Jean Yves, Montreal QC
10/02/12 9:31 AM EST
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Privileged, old, gay, white men??
In this debate, some have labeled disseting voices as those of "privileged", old, gay, white males. Yep, some of us are old, gay and white. We can't control our age, sexual orientationor skin colour. And we all know that in gay culture, one of the worst things is being old. ;-) However, I don't understand being labeled "privileged". Do we have rights that the rest of our community do not have? Would those privileges include: a) having lived with our sexuality being criminalized and some of us thrown in jail; b) being denied employment because of our sexuality, with no recourse; c) being denied housing because of our sexuality, with no recourse; d) having had no protection in the Canadian Bill of Rights and Freedoms; e) having a partner of 30 plus years with no opportunity to enjoy the societal benefits enjoyed by other couples??? If it relates to having a home and stable lifestyle, that also is not a privilege - we worked damn hard for it. Privileged indeed!!!! Our opinion is not worth more than others but neither is it worth less.
Ted Chartrand, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 9:43 AM EST
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Xtra is unethical in its reporting?
Dear Jean Yves: Xtra had reported on PTS and the AGM previously and as this was a meeting that was of interest to the entire LGBT community, I'm very sure that PTS was aware that the press was in attendance. In this respect, Mr. Turcotte was not acting "undercover". Further, when the press is present, they do not need permission to record a public conversation, so, in this respect, the information was not gained through "surreptitious means". As for your comment that I display contempt for PTS, for Claudia and for PTS staff, I have argued on the issues and have not been abusive or disrespectful to anyone. I'm sure Claudia herself would tell you that she and I treat each other with respect. We both recognize that people have different opinions and we are entitled to state them. It's one of the things I admire about Claudia. She has the maturity to understand that there are many different sides to an issue and that everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Ted Chartrand, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 12:24 PM EST
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the danger of blanket, public outing
Over the years, at LGBT/queer meetings, it has become routine to ask media NOT photograph, or otherwise identify those who attend--unless they consent. Some people, regardless of age, are simply not ready for the kind of blanket outing unrestricted video or audio recording will do. As chair of the meeting that didn't happen, I would have appreciated being informed, at least, that unrestricted audio recording was being done, so I could have advised those present, so they could have made an informed consent about speaking. On the larger point, I'm extremely disturbed by the call for unrestricted audio recording at the next AGM. (What's next, unrestricted video recording?) I believe that with public funding comes a significant obligation to protect the privacy of those who are described as 'vulnerable persons.' This is the reason all those who work with LGBT/queer persons MUST have a police records check. I hope all those who advocate for an open meeting realize the chilling effect of public outing for many in our community who don't yet have the experience those of us who are older have acquired, often though difficult and bitter experience, that we can be out. My hope is that PTS, and all its events, can be a place where everyone can learn to be out WITHOUT what we have endured, if that is what they wish.
Jessica Freedman, Ottawa Ontario
10/02/12 12:44 PM EST
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The danger of blanket/public outing
I understand your point. Were you, or others on the Board, or the ED, not aware that Xtra was in attendance at the meeting in order to report?
Ted Chartrand, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 12:56 PM EST
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Privacy rights vs. transparency/accountability
I would agree that this is a tough balancing act. So, Jessica, when you refer to an "open" meeting, are you simply referring to the use of audio/video, or, is your argument that the PTS AGM should be accessible only to PTS members in good standing, regardless of the fact that PTS is signficantly funded through public dollars? It's a signficant question.
Ted Chartrand, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 1:10 PM EST
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My point is simple
My point is simple. None of us were informed there would be unrestricted audio recording at the event. I may well be alone in the belief that individuals in our community have the unrestricted right to decide when, where, how, and even if they will reveal themselves and to who. This is at the core of all safer spaces policies I know of. And it can easily be accommodated: I have on many occasions discussed with media reasonable limits on their news-gathering to recognize who is present. Is this consideration foreign to Xtra? I would have thought it simple courtesy for any media representative to approach the chair of the meeting and discuss this matter. Such courtesy DID NOT HAPPEN last week. To focus on the mechanics of the meeting, as if this were the only consideration as to what is "open," neglects the lived experience of LGBT/queer people. Clearly, this is not an issue for you, Ted; it is for so many others. This is one of the reasons for the existence of PTS. Surely, you would not condone the creation of a toxic environment for so many members of our community simply to challenge what you perceive as a wrong done personally to you?
Jessica Freedman, Ottawa Ontario
10/02/12 1:42 PM EST
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Woah. Did I get personal?
Obviously, you have an issue with reasonable questions. From your response, I would have to assume that you were aware that the press was present. So,if as you state, it is routine to ask the media not to record meetings, then, why was that request not made? You're right it is not an issue for me and I stated that I understood your point. I stated nothing about any wrong done to me personally. I was asking because I want to further understand the issue. If members who ask questions are faced with this kind of beligerance, it is no wonder that PTS finds itself in turmoil. You might want to confirm with Claudia that I have made a number of very positive suggestions on how she and the Board may be able to more easily sell the bylaws changes as well as ideas that would offer some sense of objective evaluation of PTS programs. As members, are we just supposed to shut up, not ask any questions and follow whatever the board requests?
Ted Chartrand, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 2:01 PM EST
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Again, Ted
Ted, you seem to be causing a lot of fuss with your self-proclaimed reasonable points. To refer to your previous post: Jessica has not shown any sign of having an issue with reasonable questions. But your insistent attacks on PTS staff and board members has removed your credibility as a reasonable contributor (at least in my view). Also, you crying wolf about people creating issues when they're only responding (with less animosity then you are), is really not beneficial to the conversation. As for your, again, self-professed positive comments to Claudia and the board, would this include your extremely inaccurate and very damaging comments about PTS on OSPN's page? You keep mentioning that PTS' Facebook is not open to the public. I'm a member of PTS' Facebook group, and can post freely. Are you criticizing PTS for restricting posts to members? Because the same situation applies with OSPN's group.
Jean Yves, Montreal QC
10/02/12 2:12 PM EST
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Personal Info Protection & Electronic Docs Act
Application 4.2.C. This Part of the act does not apply to: Any organization in respect of personal information that the organization collects, uses or discloses for journalistic, artistic or literary purposes and does not collect, use or disclose for any other purpose. Source: Department of Justice, www.justice.gc.ca
Bradley Turcotte, Ottawa Ontario
10/02/12 2:20 PM EST
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Dear Jean Yves
You are entitled to your opinions. It doesn't make them more valid than mine. My conversation and question was with Jessica as a Board member. And yes, I have been just as critical of the OSPN group for attempting to stifle conversation as I have been of PTS. And if I am critical of PTS, it is because I believe some elements of the organization are deserving of criticism. I have not yet decided how I will vote on the various motions at the November 29 meeting but your continued personal attacks on my quest for information are not going to affect my end-decision. I will decide based on the information available and what I believe is in the best interest of an organizaiton that I have volunteered with, supported financially and participated in.
Ted Chartrand, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 2:28 PM EST
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Untruths
I'm not attacking you any more than you're attacking others. And you didn't respond to my concern about your posts on OSPN about PTS' Facebook page. You're spreading untruths about PTS there, so what's stopping you from spreading untruths about PTS here? Or anywhere else?
Jean Yves, Montreal QC
10/02/12 2:42 PM EST
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Bradley
does your cryptic comment suggest you had no obligation whatsoever to approach me, tell me you were going to record without restriction? Is it your belief that you, as an individual reporter, have no ethical obligation to discuss with the chair of any meeting you report on reasonable and routine limitations on your information-gathering activities in recognition of those who may NOT wish to disclose themselves? Does your comment also indicate Xtra has no interest in, or concern for, those in our community who may be vulnerable, other than as fodder for readership and ratings?
Jessica Freedman, Ottawa Ontario
10/02/12 3:05 PM EST
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Untruths?
Firstly, I challenge you to find anywhere in this Xtra thread that I have attacked anyone. I have not. I have asked questions and I have respectfully challenged. Secondly, I have stated no untruths about PTS. You were not involved in the issues that I raised on the OSPN site so you have no personal frame of reference to call me a liar. I have my perspective on the issue, and, Claudia has her perspective. Now I will get personal. Shove off!!
Ted Chartrand, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 3:07 PM EST
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:)
From OSPN Facebook group: Approximately two hours ago 'The problem here, Gary, is that an invitation was extended with no possibility of continuing the discussion on the PTS page as PTS has removed the posting function from its FB page.' Also, from OSPN Facebook group: Sunday at 06:57: It's not possible to continue the discussion the PTS Facebook page. Someone in the organization has removed the posting facility from the PTS page.' I have gone onto the PTS Facebook page, and I am able to post. I even took a screen cap (which I would gladly send you, on Facebook, if that were an option, which it is not.), so I'm unclear as to your basis for these statements. And you just attacked me, for making a comment I can back up; you just assumed I was talking about something else. Whoops.
Jean Yves, Montreal QC
10/02/12 3:13 PM EST
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I am not able to post on PTS
I am not able to post and that is the truth of the matter.
Ted Chartrand, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 3:21 PM EST
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Mistruths
Then, I strongly suggest that instead of saying the moderators of the page have removed the ability to, without any facts to back up that accusation (accusing a NFP of silencing and censoring the community they serve is no small accusation), you, I don't know, get in touch with one of the moderators and ask why you can't post. Maybe, much like OSPN, you have to be a member to post. Just some insight. Cheers, Ted.
Jean Yves, Montreal QC
10/02/12 3:24 PM EST
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But I am a member
I was able to post Saturday evening but on Sunday morning my post had been deleted and I was no longer able to post. That is the end of my discussion with you.
Ted Chartrand, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 3:29 PM EST
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Mistruths
Well, Ted, that doesn't excuse you spreading mistruths. You didn't follow the proper channels to resolve the issue, you just griped about it, repeatedly, in order to defame PTS. Which proves my point to your character. And the 'discussion' ended a while back, Ted, when you were lying and attacking for no reason. That's not a discussion.
Jean Yves, Montreal QC
10/02/12 3:34 PM EST
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XTRA is the Press
I feel compelled to write briefly on the nature of the press. I am appalled that there seems to be some lack of familiarity about its nature by some writers in this blog. In Canada, we hgave Freedom of the Press and it's constitutionally protected. XTRA reporters are members of the Press. Reporters, be they from XTRA or The Ottawa Citizen, do not have to identify themselves ot tell anyone when they are attending a meeting or an event for the purposes of reporting what happens there. It is also pretty routine for reporters to have a tape as back up for any notes. A recording can be checked for accuracy of a quote attributed to a specific person and for the personal protection of the reporter in case of any libel lawsuit. May I suggest at the next AGM that the chair should simply announce that the press may be present and may be recording the proceedings. As to the actual article, I do not believe there was anything in the XTRA story that preyed on any vulnerable person. And it does not appear to me that the reporter outed anyone. Mr. Turcotte did not do anything un-ethical, he just wrote an interesting, well-balanced story about an event of interest to a large number of Ottawa LGBT. While the story has sparked a debate, that's the sign of a healthy community. Further, XTRA should be applauded for providing this space for our uncensored comments, which may be publisned in an XTRA paper or be the subject of an XTRA story without requesting any further permission.
Denis LeBlanc, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 6:30 PM EST
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Referee Required
It looks like this debate needs a referee. I'd like to remind everyone that one guideline for reader comments states: Do not get personal and do not defame others. I feel there have been far too many personal attacks in this debate. This is a very interesting and lively debate. Please try to provide your ideas and opinions on the subjects at hand, and respect other points of view even if these are very different from yours.
Denis LeBlanc, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 6:48 PM EST
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just because you can. . . . .
Just because someone CAN do something, doesn't mean they should, or that it is right. You make an effective argument justifying unethical practice within the community, Denis LeBlanc. Simply because you're personally unaware of someone who was inadvertently outed to a parent, a partner, a boss, or clients, doesn't mean it didn't happen--or that somewhere, in OUR community, people at this very moment endure intense suffering. But since its in the name of freedom of the press, I suppose its OK. (Let's be precise, freedom of Xtra.) Those who advocate unrestricted and irresponsible information-gathering seem unaware of the existence of ethics, that privacy, particularly for LGBT/queer people (especially youth), and FROM "Canada's Gay & Lesbian Paper," is somehow not important because they don't need it, seem like some awkward giant, lumbering destructively around some little person's Lego village. How can they so blithely disdain and dismiss the lives of others, in their own community (!), who do not have the same confidence, self-esteem, life-circumstances and ability to speak out as they do? I do not disdain these lives; I cannot dismiss them.
Jessica Freedman, Ottawa Ontario
10/02/12 7:24 PM EST
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Denis
Denis: is it just me, or is there a DRASTIC difference between referencing a recording for your notes and publishing a recording? I'm pretty sure there is. How are the meeting's attendees supposed to know if the journalist is there as a journalist or as a community member?
Jean Yves, Montreal QC
10/02/12 8:45 PM EST
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Replies, about the Press
You are making it personal, Jessica, please stop it. You do not have my permission to publicly publish statements as to what I may or not be aware of - you do not know me. My comment was very clearly referencing the article at issue, Knives out...by Mr. Turcotte, reporting on the PTS AGM. No one was outed, no lives dismissed, and no privacy rights breached by the article at issue, or by the reporter. And there was no breach of journalistic ethics in the article by Mr. Turcotte. The freedon of the Press we have in Canada is very precious, and it is not just for XTRA. It is to be treasured and not limited due to some imagined or possible harm the press may cause unless their freedom is limited for one arbitrary reason or another. This is what happens in fascist states and in dictatorships. I prefer the Canadian way. Here, there are no special rules for journalists that apply only to the LGBT community and I like it. That way, it's fair, for everyone. A brief information note for Jean Yves: I do not believe there is any difference in journalism between referencing a recording for your notes and publishing a recording. The recording itself, a photo or a video can become part of the story. Like a journalist's notes, a recording, a video, or a photo can all be used by a journalist to report the facts that occured at an event. They are the journalist's tools and they are equally protected, like a journalist's words.
Denis LeBlanc, Ottawa ON
10/02/12 11:01 PM EST
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Denis
That went by a little fast for me. If I understand it correctly, a reporter doesn't need to announce themselves at a meeting, doesn't need to gain consent of, or even give knowledge to, ANY of the attendees of the meeting that they're to record, and doesn't need to let anyone know that recording is going to be published. THAT, sir, sounds like it would greatly inhibit anyone who isn't comfortable with being recorded and having their voices heart over the internet to have their voices heard at this meeting, would it not? How, exactly, is that freedom of the press helpful to our community?
Jean Yves, Montreal QC
10/03/12 5:58 AM EST
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Ethics in journalism, again
Jean Yves asked me a question. As this is a blog and not a dialogue, I have to say I am not a journalism expert. I was editor of a monthly LGBT paper for about 8 years, but this was quite a while ago, and things do change. For the ethical issue in the question, The best I could find was from The Association of Electronic Journalists at: www.rtndacanada.com/ETHICS/codeofethics.asp Their Code of Ethics at ARTICLE FOUR (Privacy)states: Broadcast journalists will respect the dignity, privacy and well being of everyone with whom they deal, and will make every effort to ensure that news gathering and reporting does not unreasonably infringe privacy except when necessary in the public interest. Hidden audio and video recording devices should only be used when it is necessary to the credibility or accuracy of a story in the public interest. So, in my view, it`s a mattter of balance: where is the public interest? To let the public know what happened by publishing a recording, or to withold that information from the public because it may inhibit anyone who isn't comfortable with being recorded. My opinion is that a greater good is served by publishing. That freedom of the press is helpful to the LGBT community as a whole who are able to get to hear the full story. It would have been next to impossible for the reporter to describe in words in an XTRA article the content of the audio file, so it had to be published so that those of us who could not attend but remain keenly interested in PTS could find out what happened at the meeting. That's it, I've decided this is enough for me on this issue, so I will not respond any further. For those really interested in this subject, please take an ethics in journalism course, or a course in Constitutional law and journalism.
Denis LeBlanc, Ottawa ON
10/03/12 6:49 PM EST
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THE OTTAWA COMMUNITY !
I have live in ottawa for 21 years and its always the same thing , those who fight to get things done get stranded with unresolved issues that need to be over and done with. Also i would look at making ottawa pride better , meaning block off the streets for a day or two especially on saturday and sunday when yu have thusands of people , and more then 2 stages i would focus 5 smaller stages and 1 big one. I would like to see this happen for next years pride !!
Brendan c., ottawa Ontario Ontario
10/05/12 4:00 PM EST
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Corruption and Freedom of the Press
Violation of privacy Bradley, at what point did you ask permission and receive unanimous consent from everyone present in the room to be recorded and posted on line? Not to mention that the recording took place in private room reserved for a private meeting. At no point during the recording have you mentioned that you were recording. Again this is just another perfect example of unethical, yellow journalism by Xtra and in particular Bradley. Kayla, Ottawa Perhaps Kayla should remember what we have fought for. It has taken MANY years for our freedom, INCLUDING the press, so KEEP GOING BRAD! You know, Karma like a boomerang can swing around sometimes Kayla. MANY things have been recorded, sometimes audio/visual when we least expect it. Then, boom, it comes back to bite us in the ass. R.Nixon Orleans
J.Bond, Toronto Ontario
10/07/12 12:18 PM EST
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J.Bond
Dear J.Bond. What in the hell are you even talking about? We're all in the same fight, dude. Bradley's recording was unethical (possibly) and Kayla's questioning that. As part of journalistic integrity and code of conduct, every journalist has to be open to having their practices questioned, and has to engage in that conversation. Bradley hasn't engaged anyone in any conversation, but has only quoted journalistic exemption from the law. Don't talk to people like you're the only one who's fought for our freedoms. We're still fighting that same fight, and PTS provides services for people who are fighting that fight, and are still victims of the opposing side. Perhaps you should remember that we're all on the same side (in theory) and stop attacking those who are trying to ensure justice.
Jean Yves, Montreal QC
10/07/12 1:57 PM EST
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Public or Private
To respond to the argument by J. Bond that the PTS AGM was a private meeting. Back in 2000, the Objectives of PTS in the Letters Patent were changed to include the borader public. Among these objectives, I cite two: 1. To foster an understanding of homosexuality by providing community, educational and research services to the Public. 2. To assist the Public in being good consumers of professional and community services by providing social and other professional network support referrals and to gather and maintain other reference materials. Itr just seems to me that an organisation that has the public at large mentioned so prominently in its objectives should have open AGM's. Besides, whether the AGM is a public or a private meeting has never been an issue in the past 28 years, and it is my opinion that it should not be an issue now. What happens at PTS is of interest not only to PTS members but to the greater Queer community and the public at large. PTS AGM's should continue to be open meetings.
Denis LeBlanc, Ottawa ON
10/08/12 5:58 PM EST
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