Who will be on the Pride Toronto advisory panel?
TORONTO NEWS / Work will not be completed in time for AGM
Matt Mills / Toronto / Friday, August 13, 2010
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As Xtra goes to press, the list of people tapped to serve on Pride Toronto’s (PT) advisory panel remains under wraps. But Metropolitan Community Church of Toronto pastor Brent Hawkes says that he will act as the body’s chair, and the identities of the other panellists will be revealed before the end of August.

The panel came about as part of PT’s June resolution to rescind its censorious ban on the phrase “Israeli apartheid” in this year’s Pride parade. Made up of “LGBTTIQQ2SA leaders and friends,” the panel is to “consult with the community” and make recommendations “regarding Pride Toronto’s ongoing working relationship with the broader LGBTTIQQ2SA communities.”

519 Church Street Community Centre executive director Maura Lawless consulted with an unnamed group of community organization executive directors in compiling the list of would-be panellists. Hawkes says he also consulted with MPP Glen Murray, mayoral candidate George Smitherman and Ward 27 city Councillor Kyle Rae. A list of 15 potentials was submitted to and approved by the PT board of directors.

Why the secrecy? Why not tell everyone who these people are and precisely how and why they were chosen?

In an Aug 6 interview, Hawkes told Xtra that he wants to be sure the panellists agree to the work before he reveals their names. He says that of the 15 potentials, only seven panellists are needed. The extras are there in case any of Hawkes’ top seven are unwilling or unable to participate.

Salah Bachir and 519 executive director Maura Lawless
“It’s not fair to say who’s on the list at this point, because some people will be approached and other people won’t be approached,” says Hawkes. “As soon as we have a panel of seven, we’ll announce it.”

Hawkes does confirm that some of the prospective panellists are visible members of the movement pressing for change at PT. But, he says, he was careful not to include polarizing figures.

“Having a panel that includes the opposite ends of the spectrum is not going to work,” he says.

Still, Hawkes says he hopes the panel’s work will effect positive change at PT.

“I personally think that one of the flaws in the current system is that the board of Pride Toronto is both a policy and a management board,” he says for example. “There are likely at least five really capable community members who could be trusted to make policy decisions for Pride but who maybe don’t have time to organize the festival. We need to look at that.”

So, if a shift to a policy board model is indicated, and if PT is out of touch with its own queer constituents, then aren’t new PT board members what’s really needed? Doesn’t that make more sense than an advisory panel of dispassionate figures charged with making recommendations that may or may not be adopted?

Hawkes says that may be true, but it’s a question that lies outside the advisory panel’s mandate. He says he expects the panel will be effective.

“I’m hoping both the independence in this process and the players in this process will make it such that whatever the recommendations will come with a lot of clout.”

According to PT’s bylaws, the annual general meeting, at which new directors and co-chairs are elected, must be held no later than four months after the Pride celebration. It’s scheduled for Sept 23.

“That’s an awkward situation because we can’t move that fast,” says Hawkes. “But we have to have the work done as quickly as possible because if there are going to be structural changes or any programming changes, then Pride needs to know that so they can get to work on it.”


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Reader Comments


 
needs to be open and transparent to work
I agree that the advisory panel of respected LGBT community leaders should not include "polarizing" people, but whoever is on the final panel should be credible longterm LGBT community figures who many people respect--whether activists or not. Otherwise the Advisory panel will have little credibility. The process has been carried out without any transparency to date which is very like the current PT Board. In the end this for this process to work,the panel should be an open and approachable group of LGBT leaders who conduct their mandate in a transparent manner in open small and large community meetings. Brent Hawkes has a long and credible history as a community activist and leader with some flexibility so he is an excellent choice as the Chair. Let us hope the the process from here on in is open and transparent and that the PT Board will take the advice of the group whatever it is after extensive public consultations across the many LGBT communities. And the group should be appointed and get on with it as soon as possible--right after Labour Day if possible. This is a matter that requires both a great deal of care and some urgency.
James dubro, toronto ontario
08/12/10 9:14 AM EST
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A few polarizing questions.
Queer Ontario raises the following questions: What statement is being sent by Pride Toronto in privileging Elliott, Hawkes and Lawless and not listening to the protests of the rest of the community? Is the self-appointed panel from an "unnamed group" not just another attempt to absolve Pride Toronto of its responsibility to maintain open and direct communication with the LGBT communities it serves? Will such a consultation create an undue costly level of bureaucracy that further undermines the consultative process being demanded by the Pride Community Contract currently being devised by the LGBT community? http://queerontario.org/2010/06/30/queer-ontario-applauds-pride-toronto%E2%80%99s-language-ban-reversal-but-questions-process/
Queer Ontario, Ontario Ontario
08/12/10 10:46 AM EST
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Here's a guess.
50 bucks says Kyle Rae will be one of the members of that secret 'leaders' panel. 50 bucks also says that NONE of the leaders who returned their Pride honours in response to the QuAIA ban are part of that short list. Unfortunately, this selection process -- or dare I say, this *exclusion* process -- already reeks of a pre-determined, Pride-directed agenda. I can't wait to see the results!
Martin Otarola, Toronto Ontario
08/12/10 1:22 PM EST
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No say it ain't so!
In as much as it was Kyle Rae's sloppy handling of this that led to the result, I hope he isn't allowed anywhere near this. He has his own agenda and it is obioulsy nowhere near what the community wants - an inclusvie and political pride.
Ellena, Toronto ON
08/12/10 5:00 PM EST
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Um, nobody wants that
You live in a fantasy world. It's true that everyone wants an inclusive Pride. No-one wants a political Pride, however, except about 200 people. And of course when you use the word "political" it means "political in a way that I agree with" and "political in that it provides a forum for me to talk about obscure left-wing political issues that normally no-one listens to". What you mean is a "left-wing Pride". What we want is an inclusive mainstream Pride that doesn't lose money, doesn't make us look like extremist weirdos and focuses on gay rights, gay pride and gay celebration. You're trying to destroy that.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/12/10 6:53 PM EST
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BUT JIM!
Some of us ARE extremists (or as we prefer, 'queer' [in theory] or 'radical'); some of us ARE weirdos (or as we prefer, 'queer' [in practice] or 'anti-normative'). And, much to your discomfort, we are these things unapologetically, which is precisely what Pride is all about (to us). Unfortunately, Pride Toronto (which claims to represent the LGBTTIQQ2SA community in its entirety) wants to disassociate itself from this aspect of GLBT/queer culture and appears to be on a mission to completely efface it from the festival. This, of course, is unacceptable and is a force that should be reckoned with. Because we CAN live with our more normative counterparts if need be, but Pride Toronto doesn't even want to give us the opportunity to do that!
Martin, Toronto Ontario
08/12/10 7:31 PM EST
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Unity
Look, I know this political aspect is important to you. But Pride is an event in which the entire community (whatever you want to call it) presents a unified face to the city at large. This can only work if we are willing to get along. The only political message should be one relating to human rights for all of us. What gives your small group the right to take over Pride? Or to even change it? Most of us want it to be a fun mainstream event in which everyone (including you) takes part without pissing off everyone else. It's not different than at the office or any other social setting where people of different stripes have to get along. If you want to hold a political parade that looks more like a G20 protest, why not hold your own parade? But do it so that it does not conflict with Pride or detract from it. Your group is destroying Pride by making it impossible for the organizers to do things and to get the corporate and government sponsorship we need. It seems that everyone in the city is aware of this QAIA issue. How does that help the gay movement? They could easily have marched under the banner of "Gay Palestinians against the Israeli Occupation". It helps no one to motivate entire groups (Jews, for example) not to participate in Pride and to actively work against it. Moreover, young Jewish men and women have every right to enjoy Pride as much as you do. Of course radicals are welcome at Pride, but they have to restrain themselves somewhat so that we can all get along. All that matters at this event is that we are all gay.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/13/10 6:23 AM EST
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I totally understand what you're saying, Jim...
... and it's clear to me that we're at an impasse. While I understand your desire for (seeming) conformity and respectability from those outside of the LGBTTIQQ2S community, I am more interested in an accurate and fair representation of the differences (however controversial or divisive they may be) within the so-called 'community.' That is, where NO ONE has to compromise their values, identities, ideas, or interests in order to participate in a Parade that exists to represent (and celebrate) us unabashedly. But, hey, what do I know...? Have a nice day!
Martin, Toronto Ontario
08/13/10 10:49 AM EST
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Jim's 'unified face'
Jim, groups with messaging similar to QuAIA have marched in Vancouver and Montreal, without any loss of revenue, without any serious problems... it's only in Toronto that there have been problems because the Board made the cowardly decision to kick QuAIA out, which created animosity and division within the queer community and allowed outside groups an opening to attack us. If Pride Toronto had had the stones to just stand up and say "Well, this group may not represent all of the LGBT community, but they are queer and trans and they have every right to be in the parade and that is the end of the discussion" LIKE THEY'VE DONE SUCCESSFULLY IN VANCOUVER AND MONTREAL, we would not be having this conversation (over and over again). The "unified face" as you put it isn't to whitewash our community to all look the same (i.e middle and upperclass white gays and lesbians), it is to take all of us in our entirety (including queers of color, trans people, kinks, radicals, etc.) and say "Here we are... we're all different and we're all pretty fucking awesome. Don't take part of us unless you're willing to take all of us."
Savannah, Toronto ON
08/13/10 11:42 AM EST
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Pride not about some false 'unity'
Savannah, have you looked at the board that made the decision to censor? The only white guy present at that infamous meeting voted WITH the right of QuAIA to participate. Are you seriously arguing that a diverse group of queer Torontonians is trying to whiten and brighten the Pride festival? Your attempt to make this a race issue is apparently based on assumptions, not facts. I'm all for keeping Pride political and diversified and pluralistic, and reject the notion that we should present a common front (when was it ever about that? Criminy! Have you BEEN to Pride, Jim?), but lets do it in an honest way that doesn't apportion blame where it doesn't belong. These people, these community volunteers, undoubtedly with the best of intentions, made some unfortunate decisions. Stop looking for monsters under the bed. And for the love of Pride let's start looking back at the City which led us down this path in the first place.
Charles, Toronto ON
08/13/10 2:36 PM EST
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Unity, diversity, responsibility
I fall into the category of "middle and upperclass white gays and lesbians", but it doesn't mean I want a Santa Claus parade. It's fine with me if all the radicals display their shit. I'm proud they are part of our community and I think they are a necessary part of it. They were always at the forefront of the gay movement and we owe it to them that we now enjoy the rights we do. You couldn't keep them away anyway. They are drawn to events like this because it provides them with an audience to whom they can pass on their messages. But what I object to is the politicization of this event. The minute you do this you exclude people who don't agree with your politics. If Pride has to become political, do it in a mainstream and inclusive way. Keep the focus on gay rights and other issues. We shouldn't let special interest groups use Pride as a way of promoting the irrelevant and the disturbing. We have to remember that our family and friends, and their children, are now going to this parade and watching it on TV. Holding a Pride like this requires a certain amount of responsibility on our part. I'd like Toronto's Pride to become as fun and as inclusive as the Sydney Mardi Gras, for example. The message should be that we are a great group of fun-loving, irreverent people who at the same time make nice normal neighbours. Because that's what we are. I have to confess that I think Pride has become really boring. Including outrageous and upsetting political messages just makes it worse and really motivates me to go away that weekend and enjoy Pride in other cities that can put on a better show.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/13/10 3:04 PM EST
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don't trivialize the race issue
Charles, first of all I'm not trying to "reduce it all to race" so please don't be the one to do that yourself and then try to push the words in my mouth. I brought up class, trans people, radicalism, sexual deviancy... all those things you chose to ignore when you responded simply about race. Personally, as a white radical trans woman, the race thing doesn't even personally affect me, so I'm simply addressing what many in the community have stated to me. If you want to know about race issues in Pride, you're going to have to speak to the organizers of Blockorama and Funkasia if you want a complete picture. Don't just look at the Pride board and say "well some of them aren't white, so there is no race issue at all" that's childish. In a related story... Barack Obama is president so I guess racism in America is over forever.
Sav., Toronto ON
08/13/10 3:10 PM EST
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big picture of LGBT struggle
Jim, I do want to thank you for acknowledging that it was the radicals who were at the forefront of the queer struggle in those critical years. But now regarding politics, I have to say in the 1980's the Simon Nkodi anti-Apartheid Committee marched in Toronto against South African apartheid in solidarity with gay anti-apartheid activist Simon Nkoli (correct spelling is an 'l')... that was a global queer solidarity front and look at the situation today... South Africa is the only nation in the middle east to legalize gay marriage! That is not a coincidence... those people know that the queer struggle helped their struggle against racism. Today, I can tell you that as a member of QuAIA I go to a pro-Palestine rally full of conservatives and religious Muslims, and you know what? They cheer for me... queerness and everything. Would they have done that even 5 years ago? If you're really going to say that QuAIA doesn't belong in Pride, then you are going to also have to reject the goal of reaching out to new communities that aren't yet completely on board with queer politics... QuAIA is all about the Palestine liberations struggle... but it is about more than that too. Would you really want to kick a queer Palestinian out of the pride march for criticizing Israel and criticizing homophobia and transphobia in the same breath?? Seriously, let's look at the big picture here... look at our long-term goals. The big picture gives us all the reason in the world to embrace a wide diversity of political views...
Sav., Toronto ON
08/13/10 3:24 PM EST
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@ Sav so the trolls strike's again
NOT MY PRIDE. Then you have made it a non queer issue if this is about the Palestinian struggle and this has nothing to do with Pride.or Gay Rights in Canada. Sav why not go over there and join them. What is Stopping you from having your march in Gaza or West Bank? or joining them over there? I hear Abbas rejected peace talks when Israel, USA, Canada, and the EU seems to want them. But I guess they did make peace you will be out of the job or being a troll that George Orwell warns everyone about. Kind of reminds me of the people he warns us about when some people in the West tried to defend the Soviet Union but in this case your just trying to defend the hate towards a group of people(or you call it human rights they all say this). Funny how most Palestinian Queer groups have to operate inside Israel and not either in side Gaza or the West Bank. I wonder why? I guess this is a issue you or the QuAIA can't seem to explain since you seem to using Queer as a cover. I say next year we invite the KKK, Nazis and the Westbroo Baptist Church to Pride and lets call it freedom of Speech and expression as the QuAIA put it. If they are rejected then it's censorship and lets hope the QuAIA comes to their defense since after all they were so called censored from Pride last year and most interesting that the QuAIA loves to do that too such as the case with the Gaza Strip Club but of course it not censorship if you trolls do it.
WTF, Toronto ON
08/13/10 3:51 PM EST
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WTF
WTF is a good choice for your anon name because nothing you say makes sense. Just today the Palestinian Authority requested through the quartet (including US, EU, UN and Russia) peace negotiations based on the 1967 borders, and Israel rejected this. This was announced just today! Maybe check the news before making your stupid easily disproved accusation? Oh and btw, two QuAIA members recently went on a tour of the West Bank, met with queer activists INSIDE THE WEST BANK and held a public film screening on queer issues that was attended by over 40 people in Ramallah inside the West Bank! Guess what? No lynchings. No mob. No violence. Queerness right in the middle of all that Palestinian stuff... will that change your views? of course not! You'll still scream for us to go join the Palestinians, which we already have, because your racism and stupidity prevents you from being capable of articulating anything other than one single idea in your head. Go get a hobby.
Sav., Toronto ON
08/13/10 4:57 PM EST
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Yes Sav
Anyone that disagrees with you is a racist and I wonder can you even prove it it since you seem to have a lot hate towards a group of people based on nationality, this card is just getting to old and you only say this because you can't make a argument as usual. Sav have you ever heard something called PR. I believe the Palestinian National Authority just did it for PR and think it might not be a good idea to arrest the Western Queer it might make us look bad in the West, Israel does this too and again Sav so why do these organizations have to have their offices in Tel Aviv and not in the West Bank? Could give a answer but you don't. Or how about organizing a Pride March in West Bank? or Gaza? can you? and Yes as gay Friendly as Hamas is when the source of their $$$$$ killed someone for being gay (source:http://bit.ly/98oqXI) and the QuAIA does not even say a word abut this? I wonder why? FYI: I'm not a racist but you just say this because you can't make a argument can you? SO AGAIN NOT MY PRIDE if you want it to be your Pride then organize a Pride march in the West Bank I believe all you need is permission from the Palestinian National Authority if you can get it. Also Sav he did walk away from Peace Talks and I have two sources (http://bit.ly/aMxz8V) and (http://bit.ly/bnGzrF). Again Sav your just like George Orwell, Politics and the English Language even if you are blind from this and how he warns us all about people like this. Also I really doubt you don't want peace either since you might find your self out of a job. SO STAY THE HELL OUT OF MY PRIDE since you seem to have little to do with gay rights in general or in Canada even if you somehow say you do but you realy don't just might have the name Queer in your name but it does not mean anything. I'm just hoping Pride will allow others such as the KKK, Nazis and the Westbroo Baptist Church to join because after all its all about freedom of Speech and Expression and it censorship if they don't.
WTF, Toronto ON
08/13/10 5:54 PM EST
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Know when to fight your battles
Sav, I'm sorry, but I don't agree. You obviously care about this issue, and I don't dispute your right to fight for what you believe in, but it only tangentially touches on gay rights. I don't think it belongs in Pride. I don't know why it is so important for you to mix the two up. Too many gay people (including me) are pro-Israel and simply don't want to be confronted with this issue when we attend a Pride event. By forcing this down our throats you are helping to ruin Pride for many of us. I am Canadian and gay, but I don't mix the two up. I celebrate one at Gay Pride and the other on Canada Day. I have certain views, but I check them at the door when I go into social situations with other people and I expect others to do the same. I'm sure you don't want me confronting you with my political views. I don't want to be confronted with yours. It's called respect and getting along. What you're doing is alienating and exclusionary. Your jumbling all these issues together and treating them as if they are all related. They're not.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/13/10 6:52 PM EST
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Oh yes, our friends the Muslims
Sav, I just don't share your political views. You have views that I don't want to be confronted with because I think (and I say this with respect) they're extreme, disturbing and of course totally wrong. I don't know what to say when you write that you think Toronto gays helped end apartheid. Or that there was a "queer global solidary front" in the 1980s. (Really? Surely we would have known? But then of course we were all traumatized by AIDS at the time.) But most of all, I don't know what to say when you post here that you have shared a forum with religious Muslims. Islam is, more than anything else in the world, the most anti-gay homophobic ideology in the world. How many millions of gay people are suffering under the yoke of religious oppression? More gays are killed and oppressed under Islam than under any political system. (Because of course Islam is not just a religion, but a political ideology as well.) They are willing to cheer when you are attacking Israel, but you are certainly not welcome in their mosque. And you would simply be locked up and executed in several Muslim countries. You see, these are the views that I hold. But I don't intend to bring them to Pride because I don't want to offend other gay people like yourself who are apparently only interested in Israel for some inexplicable reasong. Are you ready to have gay groups marching against Islam? Probably not. Indeed, I'm sure you will do your utmost to shut them up. A political Pride just leads to this kind of antagonism and partisanship. It's not viable if we're to keep Pride as an event for the entire gay community. If you must march in Pride, tone it down and keep it respectful.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/13/10 7:23 PM EST
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fighting battles
That's the point Jim, I do not have to justify my presence in the parade to you, any more than you need to justify your presence in the parade to me. I never tried to kick you out of the parade and no one in QuAIA has ever said that Kalanu's pro-Israel message does not belong in Pride. On the contrary, I encourage them to march and both sides can present their message. Don't try to tell me, another queer, that I do not belong in Pride because you disagree with my political message (and anyways, all it did was help me to project my message further when you tried to kick us out). Who made you the queer police??
Sav., Toronto ON
08/13/10 7:58 PM EST
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our friends
As for your second comment, okay, now you're being honest that you just don't like Islam/Muslims. I'm not sure if you read what I wrote above, but QuAIA has been played a role in the process of furthering the LGBT struggle in that community. Like I said, QuAIA members have visited the West Bank (openly, as queers), I for example was interviewed by a Lebanese paper that discussed the QuAIA affair and the relation of queer politics to the BDS campaign, and here in Toronto we have made stronger connections to people in the Muslim community. If you want to shrug your shoulders at all that and say "who cares, Islam is wicked" or something like that then all I can is I really feel sorry for you. Do you really think finger-pointing and name-calling is going to advance the LGBT struggle in the middle east? No, we have to actually learn to communicate with them and understand their issues as well. And I can say that I know something about this because I have Muslim and Arab friends, including people who live in the middle east and yes they know that I am trans woman and accept that. No, the situation over there is not perfect (it's bad) but the way to improve that is to actually engage with people and talk to them... not to lump over a billion people in one basket labeled "evil" and just stop talking to them. What you're saying really doesn't make sense if you want to actually improve the situation. Two other points (1) there have been messages in the parade condemning the treatment of queers in Arab and Muslim countries, and QuAIA never opposed that, and (2) why do you keep talking about "gay" rights? I'm trans, I'm part of this struggle too... can you say LGBT or at least queer? (this is another example of how you seem to think the only view that has legitimacy is the view that is closest to your own)
Sav., Toronto ON
08/13/10 8:13 PM EST
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Queer police?
Mmmm. Could be a good name for a porn DVD. From Wikipedia: "Same-sex intercourse officially carries the death penalty in several Muslim nations: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, northern Nigeria, Sudan, and Yemen. It formerly carried the death penalty in Afghanistan under the Taliban. The legal situation in the United Arab Emirates is unclear. In many Muslim nations, such as Bahrain, Qatar, Algeria and the Maldives, homosexuality is punished with jail time, fines, or corporal punishment. In some Muslim-majority nations, such as Turkey, Jordan, Indonesia or Mali, same-sex intercourse is not specifically forbidden by law. In Egypt, openly gay men have been prosecuted under general public morality laws. On the other hand, homosexuality, while not legal, is tolerated to some extent in Lebanon, and has been legal in Turkey for decades. In Saudi Arabia, the maximum punishment for homosexuality is public execution, but the government will use other punishments—e.g., fines, jail time, and whipping—as alternatives, unless it feels that homosexuals are challenging state authority by engaging in LGBT social movements. Iran is perhaps the nation to execute the largest number of its citizens for homosexuality. Since the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran, the Iranian government has executed more than 4,000 people charged with homosexual acts. In Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban, homosexuality went from a capital crime to one that it punished with fines and prison sentence." Oh, but of course, don't waste any time protesting this. This doesn't belong in Pride at all.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/13/10 8:19 PM EST
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Do you see how it works?
Sav, I have the same views of Muslims as I have of Christians and anyone else who uses religion to oppress gay people. You don't like this particular political message, so presumably you don't want it included in Pride. I suppose you feel it's inappropriate and I should sanitize it and make sure it doesn't offend anyone. I suppose I can agree to that. You first.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/13/10 8:34 PM EST
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gay
Why, what do you think "gay" means? You are certainly a welcome part of the gay community, as I understand the word. The word "queer" to me is hateful. I look forward to the day when the next bit of jargon comes along to replace it. "LGBT" is too gimmicky and politically correct for me. I remember when it was just LGB. I just don't like it. "LGBTTIQQ2SA" is too ridiculous for words. Only Toronto could come up with this. As far as I know it is only used in Toronto.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/13/10 8:50 PM EST
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very simple
Jim, I'm gonna say this very simply since you seem not to understand it. I do protest all of those things, just as you do. The difference is this... when I protest the treatment of queers in Palestine and the Arab and Muslim world, I'm actually talking to Arabs and Muslims. When you protest those things, you are talking to white secular people who already agree with us.
Sav., Toronto ON
08/13/10 8:58 PM EST
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Let me keep this simple for you too
I find it remarkable that you've discussed gay rights with Muslims, because I've found that Muslims are very reluctant to discuss face-to-face what the Quran has to say about homosexuality. Most Muslims are unwilling to discuss it at all. I've only discussed this at length with ex-Muslims, most of whom are in hiding about their moderation and fear a certain amount of persecution because apostasy is not permitted in Islam. I don't know why you mention "Arab". We're not talking about Arabs at all, are we? That's an ethnicity, and I'm only referring to religion. And of course I've travelled extensively throughout the Middle East. But perhaps you do know more about this than I do.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/13/10 9:10 PM EST
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strategy
I have also traveled in the middle east, including the West Bank. I say Arab merely because that is an identity that is important in terms of the Israeli-Palestinian question, and there are Christian Arabs among whom homophobia and transphobia is an issue there as well. When it comes to discussing these issues with a religious person, I wouldn't waste time discussing anything written in the Quran. Think about it... think about the Christians you know who are accepting of queers. The Bible is full of hatred towards queers. Have these people been convinced the Bible is wrong? No, of course not, they are still Christian. Rather, they have been convinced, external to the religious question, that queers and trans people are human beings that deserve respect the same as everyone else. Once they have been convinced of that, they go back into the Bible and come up with some weird justification of how the Bible is right but they still support LGBT people (I don't understand this of course, but it seems to be what's necessary with religious people). The same is true with Muslims. Forget about the Quran, it's a waste of time... just convince them that we as queer people are people, we have real issues, we deserve respect... get to know the person you are trying to convince. Don't just try to humanize yourself, humanize them as well... the Arab world has a very real history of having been colonized by the West, and there is real suffering there... acknowledging that will help to open their hearts to what you have to say about us.
Sav., Toronto ON
08/13/10 9:33 PM EST
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Forget about the Quran, it's a waste of time...
What else do you say to believing Muslims to get them to accept homosexuality as a viable lifestyle alternative?
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/13/10 9:48 PM EST
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keep it simple
Just tell them your story... and listen to theirs. It won't work with everyone, but it will work with some (and it has). Again, with the Quran thing.... do you really believe you're going to convince them to give up their religion?? Let's not be naive about this.
Sav., Toronto ON
08/13/10 10:49 PM EST
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So Sav.
Since you have appointed yourself the official and only competant bridge builder to the islamic community are you willing to do the same for American Evangelicals? Are you willing to accept the fact that the won't give up their faith and their belief that the bible is true from cover to cover? I also recall online dialogues with you were you discounted my point of view because you thought I was jewish...so this whole excercise you are engaging in where you accuse others of finger pointing just does not wash. I am also struck by your tendancy to set yourself up as a self appointed guardian and moral authority on the Arab world by virtue of the fact that you have travelled there and spoken to people. You imply that because of this, your views are more valid then other peoples views, and that does not on it's own my your arguement more valid. Sorry it does not
pjr, London ON
08/14/10 11:14 AM EST
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pjr
I never discounted any one's view because I thought they were Jewish. I work with Jews in QuAIA all the time for example, among other sectors of my life. Why would I discount the views of my own friends and allies?? Quit with the ridiculous slander. As for the thing about reaching out to religious figures I am simply making an argument about _strategy_. If you have a better strategy for how to change someone's views on queer issues, then please present one. What I am saying is simply this: someone who believes in the Bible cover to cover as you say is not very likely to give that belief up. I'm sorry to say that but I am being realistic and that is just the case. How many people do you know in your own life who, past the age of 25, actually went from that kind of evangelical belief to putting their Bible away and embracing queers? I used to be a militant atheist, I tried having those kinds of conversations, it's a waste of time because you are arguing with someone about an abstract irrational belief. But if you focus on a specific issue and explain how real breathing human beings are affected by it, some people will listen. Which is an easier task? Convincing someone to put away their Bible for good or convincing someone that real human beings are affected by the LGBT question, despite these handful of weird passages in the Bible on the subject. It's never going to be easy with an evangelical... but one path has a small chance of success and another has virtually zero. As for the "self-appointed" thing all I can say is this: 90% of the people on this board have one view about the Arab world and I have a different view. That 90% has been the dominate view in this country (and the West generally) for decades. What has it gotten us?? (you might want to recall that we didn't have these problems until about the 50's or 60's as well)
Sav., Toronto ON
08/14/10 12:33 PM EST
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WHo is this sav
Is he the moderator? He seems to be everywhere correcting everybody. It is really tiresome to come on here and see someone trying to have the last word on everything. Get a life, like you tell others to do. Hypocrite.
Judith Patel, Toronto ON
08/14/10 4:38 PM EST
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Oh please Sav
I can pull out the link where you discounted my views because you thought I was jewish...but really I cannot be bothered. "But if you focus on a specific issue and explain how real breathing human beings are affected by it, some people will listen. " I love how you side step my point..Does it not occur to you the fundementalist muslims will react the same way as evangelials even with all of your "explanations" seeing as their beliefs are "abstract" and "irrational" as well. The Koran, like the Bible is full of "weird" passages of it's own. Of course you did not answer my question...do you "reach out" to evangelicals as well? As to the issues between the west and Islam, you betray an amazing ignorance for someone who apparently is in daily if not weekly contact with arabs. You claim that there were not any problems until the "50's" and the "60's". You imply that these issues have come up in the recent past. You might not be aware of the crusades that occured in the middle ages or the various conflicts between the west and the islamic world since the inception of islam. There also have been various issues involving the middle east since the first world war which usually have as a subtext the conflict between the west and islam which stretches back centuries. And what of muslims? Do they not bear some responsibility for their animosity towards western values? The history of islam and by extension the Arab world is one of imperialism and brutality that rivals if not matches the western world...so educate yourself Sav... To Judith..no he is not the moderater, Sav is just a self righteous self appointed authority on this issues. Sav's response to every arguement goes like this: "Because I talk to arabs my view on this topic is more
pjr, London ON
08/14/10 6:02 PM EST
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The Solution to Pride
For next year, the entire Pride will be turned over to trans people of colour ONLY. No one else can be involved. Their allies can help them. Let us see what they come up with. It might be fun. Or it might be a huge flop. Let them try to put on a 100% political Queer gender variant anti-binary anti-heterosexist patricarchal hegemony. And no funding from anyone with power. Try it. Elect a transman ED and get rolling.
answer queen, toronto ON
08/15/10 10:00 AM EST
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It won't be fun
Gay men will be excluded if they are white, physically attractive, employed, financially successful or psychlogically well adjusted. This is because, although gay, they obviously do not truly understand the process of suffering that is required to be part of the LGBTTIQQ2SA community. The only statements that participants and observers will be allowed to make are "Death to Israel" and "Canada is evil".
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/15/10 6:22 PM EST
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Separation
I'd like to add that it may be time to take the "G" out of "LGBTTIQQ2SA". I think a Pride day with just gay men would be more fun. Let the rest hold a separate angst-ridden death march. This paragraph from the LGBT Wikipedia article hits the nail on the head. What we're dealing with are activists who don't believe in a "gay community" at all. "The portrayal of an all-encompassing "LGBT community" or "LGB community" is also disliked by some lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people as well as ontologists. Some do not subscribe to or approve of the political and social solidarity, and visibility and human rights campaigning that normally goes with it including gay pride marches and events. Some of them believe that grouping together people with non-heterosexual orientations perpetuates the myth that being gay/lesbian/bi makes a person deficiently different from other people.These people are often less visible compared to more mainstream gay or LGBT activists. Since this faction is difficult to distinguish from the heterosexual majority, it is common for people to assume all LGBT people support LGBT liberation and the visibility of LGBT people in society, including the right to live one's life in a different way from the majority. In the 1996 book Anti-Gay, a collection of essays edited by Mark Simpson, the concept of a 'one-size-fits-all' identity based on LGBT stereotypes is criticized for suppressing the individuality of LGBT people."
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/15/10 6:50 PM EST
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Choose your side
Jim -- I am with you. It is Queers versus Gays now. Read this manifesto of madness from boring old Nick Mule defining Queer. The line is between people who buy this Queer ideology and those who do not. "from Queer Ontario web site by Nick Mule: At Queer Ontario we use the term “queer” as a way to critique foundational norms pertaining to identities. It is a way of looking at the world through a lens that is decidedly not straight or traditionally or fixed gendered. Positing such a world view can counter hegemonic discourses based on heteronormativity and cisgenderism. These world views can also assist us in advancing our interests in order to serve our needs. We also use ‘queer’ in popular usage as inclusive of a wide range of varying and fluid gender and erotic expression. Queer people, as members of the gender and sexually diverse populations, include but are not limited to 2-spirited, agender, ambigender, androgyne, asexual, bigender, bisexual, cross-dresser, drag queen, drag king, fluid, gay, gender fluid, genderqueer, intergender, intersex, intrasex, kink, lesbian, non-gendered, omnisexual, pangender, pansexual, polysexual, transgender, transsexual, and transvestite individuals. Thus, usage of ‘queer’ is radical in keeping with a liberationist perspective while simultaneously serves to avoid the LGBT…alphabet soup"
Queer is an ideology not a sexuality, toronto ON
08/15/10 7:34 PM EST
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leave the sinking ship to the (b)rats
Jim, living well as gay is the best revenge against Queer. Simply stop attending. Drop out of "the community". Leave anything to do with "queer" behind. Hang with other gay men and lesbians. But move on from the new Queer the way people leave a religion. You will be surprised how free you will feel. Leave the world to the Queers now. It is their turn to overturn the patriarchy and smash heteronormativity and gender binary forever. Have sex and a beer and leave the smashing to them. As an 19 year old queer trans person railed: gay bathhouses are queer space and it is our turn to use them! Note the word Use and not Buy and Pay For. Queer = Victim Entitlement/Revenge. Reparations time, bpourgeois white male sweater fags. Move over!
it ended in the 90s!, Toronto ON
08/15/10 7:44 PM EST
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hmmm
Well, the hot 19 year olds are always welcome (as long as they don't have too much to say...)
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/15/10 9:10 PM EST
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Words and phrases hereby banned
queer, anti-normative, ontologist, heteronormativity, cisgenderism, gender binary, LGBTTIQQ2S, liberationist, any word with the prefix "inter" or "intra"
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/15/10 9:22 PM EST
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Three "Pride" parades?
I guess the point is that there is no longer a single gay community. There should be three "Pride" events. A fun non-political parade for gay men, but make sure it's funded and organized properly and as fabulous as the Sydney Mardi Gras. Then have a separate lesbian event. (I think they have a separate one already). And a third event held for all the leftovers, but especially those who identify as "queer" and object to the very existence of corporations and "bourgeois white male sweater fags". Since the "queers" (gawd, I hate that word) don't want to get along with anyone else, allow them to organize their own event separately and deny them the funding they despise. Hold the events simultaneously under the heading "Pride" (organized and managed by competent people), but have three separate parades with their own organization committes. Don't hold them at separate times, but set it up so people can walk from one event to the other if the event. It's unlikely now that the "queers" will allow the main parade to be properly organized and funded and held without disruption. Allow the various groups to decide which parade they are willing to march in. This makes sense to me because the parade is already too long and boring.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/15/10 9:50 PM EST
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Jim: the perfect solution.
You have spoken for so many. We agree whole-heartedly. Pride has become too big and cumbersome...diversify and specialize...everybody gets to have their own cake and eat it too. Kudos to you. I'm just jealous that I didn't think of that first. Is there any way of getting you to be part of that committee?
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
08/16/10 7:10 AM EST
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question for Jim, just curious
You are a former board member of Pride Toronto, right?
Sav., Toronto ON
08/16/10 10:35 AM EST
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Consultation Process Questioned - Part 1
More details are now surfacing as to how Brent Hawkes (“There is no one I want more to lead us than Chief Bill Blair,” following the police actions over the G20 weekend), Doug Elliott (“The Parade has evolved over thirty years. It is primarily a celebration of our sexuality and gender identity, not a political protest, and frankly, most people seem to like it that way”) and Maura Lawless were involved in the shaping of such a panel. There is a whiff of elitism in the air that at a deeper inhale becomes the stench of influence by a privileged few. Characterizing the process as independent, as Hawkes does, furthers the fallacy as he has now been declared chair, Elliott has placed his own name on the list and all others were gathered via closed consultations with privileged others, the candidate names of which are being withheld from the community until after they are chosen by Pride Toronto’s board (albeit Lawless has not forwarded her name). Sadly, basic tenets of community development appear to be lost on these individuals. Principles of inclusion beyond our communities’ usual suspects would allow for a far more comprehensive level of input and potential participation; respect for diversity would create an opportunity for a broad range of our diversified community to contribute from their valued perspectives; involvement of the community in devising the criteria for the consultative panel selection process as well as scope of the consultations would make this a shared responsibility that people will more readily invest in; and finally and most importantly, engaging in a process that is transparent as this will keep the public informed and reduce the creation of distrust and questioning of motives. Undertaking such tenets of community work is involved and time consuming, but a far better alternative to the unprincipled process that is currently underway that risks undermining its very own goals.
Nick Mulé, Toronto Ontario
08/17/10 10:40 AM EST
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Consultation Process Questioned - Part 2
With all due respect to Elliott, Hawkes and Lawless and their respective significant contributions to our communities, the means by which they have involved themselves in establishing a consultative process raises serious questions of integrity on the very issue this is premised on: community engagement. The secretive, privileged, restrictive and exclusive approach inadvertently diminishes their credibility and that of the process. Hawkes consulting the likes of Kyle Rae (“I believe that the purpose and participation of the QuAIA contingent was incongruous with Pride's mission, vision and values.”), George Smitherman (“I protest the plan to use pride, a celebration of the LGBT community, as a backdrop for this debate. It's time for the Pride committee to act, prevent their [QuAIA’s] participation…”) and Glen Murray (“The last thing you want is politicians deciding your content” ), the latter of whom as a politician is comfortable influencing this process. Of course all of these men (no further diversity was reported) have a right to their opinions, but let’s not kid ourselves regarding in which direction they are tilted and how this will influence their choices of who makes up the consultative panel. Hawkes doesn’t address the secrecy when questioned, instead protecting the names he has chosen for consideration. Lawless consulted ‘with an unnamed group of community organization executive directors.’ Why are they unnamed? And how many grassroots LGBT community groups and organizations exist without executive directors? What of their input? And yet we are being sold, by Pride Toronto, the notion that these are ‘well-respected community leaders’. Some of us are simply not buying it. It wasn’t expected that Pride Toronto would come up with a process to conduct community consultations in a way that respects community, given their increasing demonstration of being so woefully out of touch with the community over the past number of years. Yet the ‘well-respec
Nick Mulé, Toronto Ontario
08/17/10 10:45 AM EST
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Consultation Process Questioned - Part 3
Nevertheless, Pride Toronto is proceeding with this flawed process clueless as to how it contributes to the further false elevation of the status of some and devaluation of others (individuals and organizations alike). Many of us recognized the fateful meeting at Murray’s office for what it was – the parachuting of Elliott, Hawkes and Lawless as a face-saving mechanism that assisted Pride Toronto in rescinding the ban and agreeing to public consultations, particularly given that World Pride 2014 looms large – on the backs of the numerous activists that stood up to Pride Toronto. But will the integrity of this consultative process now be compromised by an elitist approach that risks alienating many members of the LGBT communities who had hoped to establish a renewed relationship with Pride Toronto? Will the scope of the consultations include its very process, for which questions are being raised, let alone the actual issues concerning Pride Toronto? How will this secretive process contribute to what underscores all of this: trust?
Nick Mulé, Toronto Ontario
08/17/10 10:48 AM EST
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Blow me
Frankly, Nick, it's your posts that smells of elitism, exclusiion and partisanship. Nick, these people are trying to make Pride a success. Your goal seems to be to destroy this process and turn the organization of this event into living nightmare for everyone involved. Your posts show that you are not interested in serving the interests of the gay community as a whole. You are only interested in your own narrow interests. You use words like "consultation" and "community", when you mean the exact opposite. You are trying to disguise the fact that you only want Pride to become a leftist, political death march. You'd think this was a negotiation for a new Charter of Rights. It's just a fun parade for chrissakes. Stop turning it into something it's not. Kyle, I don't know whether you bother to come to this site, but I want you to know there are many gay people in Toronto who deeply appreciate what you've done for the gay community over the years. After reading crap like this, I only have more respect for the kind of shit you've had to put up with.
Jim, Toronto Ontaro
08/17/10 1:04 PM EST
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"Community", my ass
Nick, by the way, stop using the word "community". You don't speak for me. You don't speak for the "gay community", whatever that is anymore. You speak for about 200 radicals who are intent on destroying this event. You are not even part of the gay community. You are hereby expelled. Why don't you start your own event and leave ours alone?? Then you can run it your way. And take QuAIA with you. We should be extremely grateful anyone halfway normal is still willing to get involved in this event. Stop trying to fuck it up for them.
Jim, Toronto Ontaro
08/17/10 1:12 PM EST
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OMG Jim!
What's happened to you? Intially your comments provoked respectful dialogue & debate. Now your language is ugly, disrespectful and dismissive and your words bully others into submitting to your opinions and definitions. The only thing you're right about is that there is no 'real' community anymore, not even a whisp of it, because singular opinions and self-rightousness lead to the fracturing of our "communities". Singularities (read dictatorships etc) cannot accomodate diversity. COMMUNITY is NOT a silo structure and when forced into one, it inevitably implodes (or explodes). Until your last diatribe above, I wasn't aware that you and your ilk were so hellbent on destroying any/all traditional definitions or feeling of community in Toronto and had plans to replace it with a marketable facsimile that you can control. Now all the bullshit makes sense ... You (and your allies) won't stop until you succeed in dominating the debate, ridiculing all opposition and eroding any public support or curiosity about alternatives. Ostracize anyone who doesn't agree! I feel very sorry for all of us should you succeed in your ambitions.
an observer, T.O. ON
08/17/10 3:35 PM EST
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Comment Above
I think your the censorship here I do agree with Jim on this one THIS IS NOT MY PRIDE OR THE PRIDE OF MANY. Pride is about the community as a whole and not the opinions of radicals who just want to hijack it for their political agenda.
WTF, Toronto ON
08/17/10 5:00 PM EST
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Dear Jim
I would like it very much if you could answer Sav's question above (before Nick's comments), where she asks if you are indeed JIM CULLEN, the former Board member of Pride Toronto. If so, perhaps this might explain An Observer's comment (above) where s/he makes note of your shift away from diplomacy towards more disrespectful bullying tactics. You know, given that you are no longer required to represent the organization... Some clarification would be nice! Thank you.
Martin, Toronto Ontario
08/17/10 5:02 PM EST
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Thanks, Jim!
"You are trying to disguise the fact that you only want Pride to become a leftist, political death march." Well, Jim, what little credibility you had at the beginning of this thread has since completely disintegrated. (And if you are Jim Cullen, this has been a startling look at the inner workings of the minds on Pride Toronto's board--and in their chair positions.) Strangely it's those despicable activists who have shown they care about Pride Toronto by convening SRO meetings at the 519, writing to politicians and funders, creating proposals for new ways of running Pride, volunteering for Pride to ensure they can vote at the next AGM, writing letters to Xtra, posting messages on here, making applications on the board...and the right-wing pity party claim that you 'just want a fun parade' is really a thinly disguised appeal for an 'I have my rights, who cares about everyone else?' parade. Go have one in your back yard and leave Pride to those of us who genuinely care about the event and what it truly represents.
David Demchuk, Toronto Ontario
08/17/10 5:59 PM EST
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Jim speaks for me!
I think Jim probably speaks for the "quiet" majority. The fringe opinion that is expressed on here is NOT the majority. We're just the cranks who have too much time on our hands who can bitch about the littlest things. ----> So, on the whole I think Jim did an excellent job and provided an excellent solution. Let's have the THREE events (same day or separate days) and all groups can be pleased with their own efforts and outcomes. Let's have the "fun" and "shallow" gay man's party, the leftist "angst-ridden death march" and the dyke festivities (I think these ladies have already "taken the Dyke back" -- that shows initiative, girls!). That way, we all get what we want. (Notice there wasn't any of this political fall-out from the Fetish Fair...hmmmm...I wonder why? Could it be that they just had fun?) -----> As for "Who is the real Jim"? Who knows? Who cares? Who checks the integrity of any of these posts?! I've noticed several times peoples' posts suddenly changing tone/attitude. How do we know if a different writer hasn't assumed the persona of another character. Most of us here are incognito since we don't want the "crankier" cranks to harass us in our real lives. (Cyberspace is so safe.;-)) Pleeeaaze....give it up. Do you think even anybody at Xtra moderates this? They're just happy to get the hits on their website? Why? Because it's business? (Notice the ads?!) Ugly as that may be...the world does revolve around the almighty dollar (and this coming from somebody who is extremely left...and really despises big business and multinational corporations - but if I believe, for one minute, that this isn't true - that the world revolves around money...than I am a fool). -----> So Jim, or rather, all the Jim's who have participated in this forum. Bravo. Thanks for your solution and keep on saying it like it is. Call a spade a spade.
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
08/17/10 8:29 PM EST
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Proof!
I just checked off: "Yes, I have read guidelines." If you've read the guidelines, you would see that 90% of these posts don't belong as they violate the guidelines...has anybody from Xtra done anything about this? Nooooo! Has anybody ever been contacted by the moderator from Xtra? Noooo! ----> It's just us cranks here, and all the Jim's. The "real" people out there are busy having "fun" (and not planning some angst-ridden death march - this line still cracks me up)...and I'm going to go join them. -----> Hey, I'm back for just a second...I found out where the moderator is...he's at the party, having fun. See ya!
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
08/17/10 8:38 PM EST
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Have fun at The Party, J.B!
That is: the Party that has been made possible by the efforts of the 'angst-ridden' activists who had to fight to keep the Police from shutting It down because of Its so-called 'indecency.' The very same fight that allowed the House where the Party is being held to be considered a home and NOT a bawdyhouse. -----> Just watch, you'll probably also disregard the efforts of the 'angst-ridden' activists when you are FINALLY able to give blood and save a family member from dying; or when you are FINALLY able to rent a hustler without being charged for a criminal offense. But hey, what can you do? Some people are selfish and ignorant like that.
Martin, Toronto Ontario
08/17/10 10:16 PM EST
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Sav - U Go Girl
Sav, you are the voice of reason. Jim et al. - there was a time, not so long ago, when homosexuality was illegal in Canada. I assume other democracies even had death penalities for it. So the Middle East and many Muslim countries are behind us on this. What do you suggest we do? Nothing and let the killings continue? Instead of facing the reality of an apartheid regime in Israel, you continue to use Muslim countries wrongs to divert from the issue. Face reality and stay on topic.
Rick, toronto ontario
08/18/10 6:55 AM EST
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self pious selection of issues
"Rick", if you are so concerned about other world suffering why chose ONE specific group ONLY? What about the couple who were stoned to death for adultery in Afghanastan yesterday? What about the woman in prison in Iran awaiting stoning who was tortured into a statement this week? What about the women in the Islamic world who have their noses cut off as punishement for sexuality? Surely these instances of terror are sex related and more germane to a sex rights group than anything else? Why so silent about these sex crimes and so vocal about Palestine which has nothing to do with sex? Curious how the self-pious "left" choses its causes and ignores others. Perhaps PR and media attention 101 left out sex crimes that contradict pet left image projects.
hypocrisy sniffer, toronto ON
08/18/10 8:13 AM EST
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@ Hypocrisy Sniffer - an excellent sense of smell.
What an excellent sense of smell! How do you stand the stench? Your acute olfactory abilities put into perspective the the ever narrowing tunnel vision and myopia of people like Sav and Rick.
J. (Jim?) B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
08/18/10 2:19 PM EST
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This is the internet
I am not Jim Cullen. I don't even know who this is, although if is able to maintain a diplomatic approach I respect him for it. If I were Jim, would I use my own name? Use your common sense, for pete's sake.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/20/10 2:35 AM EST
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Exactly
This is exactly what I said. Too many people on this site are confusing cyberspace with reality. Next they'll be assuming that the internet has integrity. On another note, this possibility of Ford being the next mayor is a real issue and may help to us to refocus our initiatives and fight a battle on our home soil, our own turf...our backyard. He's not gay friendly, not trans friendly and not immigrant friendly and reminds me of Mike Harris (or is that Hair-ass or Harass) ----> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/rob-ford-and-a-decade-of-controversy/article1678543/ <----- AND, I bet, there will still be some fixated/obsessive personality types who will perseverate on these extraneous issues.
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
08/20/10 7:37 AM EST
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Contrary Rick
Rick, I guess you're just against everybody and everything, aren't you? Where do you stand exactly: are you pro-Israel or pro-Islam? Or is your position that you just disagree with everbody and everything? Does it really matter how Pride is organized? Or is it your position that it's not a truly "democratic" process unless someone is continuously carping about the process. Sometimes "democracy" requires the leaders to lead, the organizers to organize, and the rest of us to shup up and let them do their jobs.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/21/10 8:31 AM EST
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Dave, you really really don't get it
David Demchuk, I can see you have a point of view but I can barely understand your post. It doesn't make sense. Activists like you are trying to destroy Pride by constantly interfering with the organization and politicizing it in a way that is unacceptable to 98% of gay people. Pride is for all of us, not just for activists and others who are politically minded and are trying to shove their disturbing and incorrect views down our colletive throats. You don't get enough attention, of course, so you're trying to use Pride to get media time. In other words, you're destroying the community-wide, neutral nature of Pride for selfish reasons. You want it to be G20 part 2, but that's not what it is. You want it to be a hate-festival against Israel and the Jews, but that's not what it is. Please go start your own parade and leave ours alone. Let the organizers get their sponsorships and organize the damn thing. How can they do this when they have 200 "queers" screaming at them all the time? Back off.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/21/10 10:08 AM EST
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hypocrisy
Jim you correctly state that "Pride is for all of us" yet you then go to effectively say LGBT social activists aren't welcome at Pride because they aren't neutral. Is Pride really such a small thing in your mind that it can only be one thing for one group of people? There's plenty of room for the entire LGBT community at Pride and that includes LGBT social activists like QuAIA and others. They aren't out to make it all about them, but that's what those who oppose them are trying to do, make Pride all about QuAIA. LGBT social activists have always been a part of Pride and should continue to be so even if others disagree with the views of individual groups, if they are a part of our community they belong in Pride. No one segment of the population should be able to decide a different segment isn't welcome, after all Pride is for all of us as you said, so why not stick to your words and welcome all to Pride? Pride is many different things to many different people, no one from the social activists are trying to prevent anyone else from participating or enjoying Pride in their own way, but that is what those who insist it should only be a party are doing. Pride has always been a party but never just a party, its inclusiveness is what separates it from all the other festivals in this city every year, I sincerely hope it maintains that welcoming tradition for all LGBT folks regardless of what Pride means to them individually.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
08/21/10 3:01 PM EST
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It's my party and I can cry if I want to
Rich, I agree with almost everything you've written except this part: "no one from the social activists are trying to prevent anyone from participating"..." That's just not correct. They want to participate in Pride, but only on their terms. This means, apparently, expressing their views in a way that alienates everyone else. Sorry, you're invited to the party but only if you behave in a way that doesn't alienate everyone else. No-likes the asshole at a party who wants to talk about politics and religion. You just don't do that unless you want to piss everyone off. It's common courtesy. And you don't call a party organizer constantly and tell her you want a say in how the party is run. If you have something useful to contribute, sure, go ahead. But otherwise the only thing you can do is show up and enjoy yourself. If you're a vegetarian or dry, you keep your mouth shut and enjoy the party without making a big deal about it. These are basic social graces. I don't burden you with my political views, so please don't ruin this party by shoving yours down my throat. The extremists and activists are welcome to this event, in my view, as long as they follow the normal rules of social decency. It's not your event to play with. It belongs to all of us.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/21/10 5:38 PM EST
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The hypocrite is you...
...because you're only happy if the political views expressed are those of "activists". Look at all the whining on this site about the Jewish groups marching in Pride and standing up for themselves. No, they are supposed to shut up, according to you and your friends. Freedom of expression and the politicization of Pride applies only to those who agree with you. Surprise, surprise. My point is this: Pride is a celebration, a party, not a political event that is meant to provide a forum for one political group to use to their advantage to spread a hate-related message that has nothing to do with the concept of "gay".
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/21/10 5:49 PM EST
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SIGH.....
Jim touches on some very important points. ***Right wants politics out of Pride, left says it has an historic place and must remain. Right wants everyone to be nice and behave like gays the public can recognize and respect, the left wants to show the world that we are and what we care about. The right wants everyone out of their parade who is not one of us..gaba gaba hey..the left wants everyone to have a place at the parade. ***Where do we draw the line and is it the job of PT to draw that line? We do know that it is not the job of any single-minded idealist. ***PT is one giant mood swing, or better to describe it as a progressing, evolving spiral that has highs, lows, lefts and rights. It is the duty of the Pride Board to maintain the balance, which they failed to do this year by taking sides in an argument, and then taking sides again a week later. When one side more then the other influences the Board, this is the shit that happens. ***What Jim is saying, [interesting once again that his word use patterns match exactly that of dialogue in other discussions with known Pride Insiders…hmmm] is that if someone does not fit his/our image of gay they do not belong in our community’s parade. … you do not speak for me and who is this “community” you speak of?” What does “gay” look like, button down shirts and sensible shoes or attendees of circuit parties and models on Trojan Floats. I for one would love to be represented by shirtless 40-year-old guys with tribal tattoos, orange skin, with dilated pupils, smelling of poppers and drinking a wobbly pop with a straw. Big hint Jim, when you or anyone else attempts to censor anyone from participating because you don’t like it, you make the parade political. NO single vision will ever work in the parade. Why? Because just having a parade is political, always has been and always will be so long as there ignorance and intolerance has a voice toward and within our community. ***The mysterious “200” troublemakers you all
Mark Smith, Toronto Ontario
08/22/10 4:58 PM EST
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OPEN LETTER TO BRENT HAWKES: Part 1
I commend Brent Hawkes, for accepting the challenge of leading Pride Toronto’s (PT) advisory panel. This will be a challenge and may never have a clear outcome. The success will be in how it helps the greater community understand itself through open discussion of policy, history and future planning. ***“”Having a panel that includes the opposite ends of the spectrum is not going to work,” Hawkes ***I disagree, in order for this to work all sides must be heard. The PT Executive created polarization with an inability to understand their duty to the community and forcing the different voices to be more clear-cut and extreme. ***For this to work, every disparate voice must be invited, represented, included and heard. This is fundamentally important to an open and transparent process. ***Submitting the names for approval by the current Board has effectively shut the door on transparency. This Board has repeatedly demonstrated its inability to make a solid decision and the community has lost faith in anything it would propose. ***“The Board of Pride Toronto is both a policy and a management board”: Maybe this should be the first topic of discussion for the panel. Maybe the new model for the PT Board should be a full slate of 12 Board members [in accordance to the bylaws] and be split: 6 policy and 6 management. ***Hawkes “ it’s a question that lies outside the advisory panel’s mandate. What is the mandate? Who has set it? Should the first task of the Panel be to set its own direction and mandate? The Board of PT has asked that this Advisory Committee be formed; clearly they sought help because they do not understand the scope of their own misunderstanding. PT cannot seek the answers if they do not know the questions that vex them. ***“I’m hoping both the independence in this process and the players in this process will make it such that whatever the recommendations will come with a lot of clout.” The chosen 7 should be respected community leaders with strong pre
Mark Smith, Former Board Member, Toronto Ontario
08/22/10 5:15 PM EST
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Open Letter to Brent Hawkes: part 2
***“I’m hoping both the independence in this process and the players in this process will make it such that whatever the recommendations will come with a lot of clout.” The chosen 7 should be respected community leaders with strong presence and voice as the oversight committee, they should draft and present the final document, which would be the result of recommendations of Sub-Committees lead by people with solid knowledge and expertise on subjects. This would lessen or eliminate opportunity to dismiss recommendations when presented. *** “. An awkward situation because we can’t move that fast,” says Hawkes. The process must start now. Any Board elected at the next AGM will be in place for 3 years. If we do not define the needs and strengths required of potential Board members we will doom ourselves to more of the same mismanagement. ***PT is not simply an event, party, celebration or a political statement; it is a combination of all of these and more. For the Advisory Committee to succeed the whole community must be understood and included, whether it’s the people who attend Prism or the organizers of Blocko. Without inclusion of the smallest voice the future of any “fix” is doomed. *** A vital and large segment of the community, left, right and centrest, has lost trust and faith in the ability of the current PT Board to manage its affairs or understand the duty that it was elected to perform. I urge you and the advisory panel to act independently, takes this to the membership directly, engage them, and openly discuss issues. You have the respect of the community; do not squander that respect by becoming an adjunct to the current Board. Act Now, Act Swiftly and prove to the community that the intent and mission is to rebuild our Pride and its future. With deepest respect: Mark Smith; former Board Member ***PS; As you start the process may I suggest you seek copies of the following documents, which all contain information that is current to this juncture
Mark Smith, Toronto Ontario
08/22/10 5:22 PM EST
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Sigh
Mark, surprisingly, I don't disagree with much of your first post. But look at what you then write in your open letter to Brent Hawkes (parts 1 and 2). You have got to be kidding me. Who would want to work with this kind of thing?? This is harassment. You're hounding the organizers in order to force the event to be changed in a way that you want. It's death by a thousand cuts. You are exhausting everyone with this nonsense. What on earth do you think Pride is? The fcuking consitution? You act like it's Pride has huge political significance and is something like a gay parliament. It's just a big party for chrissakes. Let the organizers (god have mercy on them) do their jobs. My suggestion: (1) cancel the event because it's obviously become impossible to organize or (2) hold three separate parades, giving each exactly what they want. I don't want to go to your event. I don't. Please stop trying to change "our" event into an event that excludes the people you don't like. It's the wrong thing to do. Cancelling the event will be embarassing, but it's time the Toronto gay community admits to the world what has happened to it. Let the chips fall where they may. (I have not been involved in Pride ever. I've just stumbled on this issue while checking out the latest issue of Xtra. Also, I really resent the fact you refer to me as "right", because I'm not that at all. I'm just not as extremist as you are.)
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/24/10 2:45 PM EST
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Sorta like the gay Olympics, isn't it>
This reminds me of the gay Olympic movement and how it was ruined by the people in Montreal. A minority ruining a successful, profitable, well-run gay event for their own selfish purposes. But then again, maybe we just need a separation of some kind, just like at the gay olympics. Let the queer contingent hold their parade; let our gay event be the way it should be -- without them. One event on Jarvis; the other on Church. Two applications to the city; two organizing bodies. If necessary, give them the name "Queer Pride" so they'll think they've won and shut up. Let the queer event be the most democratic, politically correct death march the city has ever seen. But of course all the gay bars and clubs should pull out in order to hold an alternative event. Incorporate a proper NGO to run the gay parade (at the same time as the queer event) but set out clearly in the bylaws how things are to be run so the meetings and organization are closed to outsiders. Let the gay one be as fabulous and as fun as the Sydney Mardi Gras, complete with corporate and government sponsorships up the ying-yang. The gay community has lost to the queer contingent because it is simply exhausting to work with them. Let's admit it to the city. Let the city sort out the various organizations and applications. It's already happening with the lesbian events anyway.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/24/10 3:06 PM EST
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A separate Pride
Yes, this is what is needed: a prominent entrepreneur in the Toronto gay bar, gay club and gay party scene should convene all the major players in this sector to get together and stage a mass withdrawl from the current Pride so that the only organizations left are the political ones. These gay separatists would quietly and privately (but firmly) not agree to participate in the now-highly-politicized "Queer Pride" event. The parade is too long now anyway. Then they should organize a massive private party/spectacle/event nearby, perhaps called "Pride Party" or something like that. They know how to do parties and large events right, so give them a free hand. They'd want sponsorships, which should be easy to come by. They might have to give up government funding though (unless they can set themselves up properly within the guidelines). These gay separatists (really the majority) could stage a really spectacular massive event somewhere near the regular Pride. It would be more orchestrated. Perhaps it could be set up as a competition in which the bars and clubs compete with each other for the best float. Everyone would be welcome to this, but you'd have to set this up so that the organizers would maintain complete control over the organization of things. You'd also have to strictly control who gets into the parade/spectacle side of things because of course the queer contingent will want to go to where the cameras are. Maybe charge a fee and hire cops at the gates.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/24/10 3:39 PM EST
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@ Jim: Once again: GREAT IDEA!
Jim: I know that there is a tone of sarcasm in what you wrote...but I do think you have a good idea going. Everybody gets to do what he or she wants. Everybody gets to attend the celebration of their choice...and that's what it's about, isn't it? Choice! ----> So how do we get this thing started...is anybody with power reading this or are we shouting into an empty tunnel.
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
08/24/10 4:32 PM EST
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"Empty tunnel" probably
I suspect everyone involved has been traumatized by these mouthy radicals into not saying anything in public. The minute any organizer puts forward a common sense, mainstream idea, he or she is shouted down by this very vocal minority as being right wing. The position of the queer contingent is that it is simply unacceptable not to do what they say. They don't dialogue; they yell. They are going to keep yelling until they get their way and Pride becomes G20 part II and no Jews are allowed. The only way to get this organized is to do it behind closed doors. This is what the radicals here are all complaining about, but it's a situation of their own making.
Jim, Toronto Ontario
08/25/10 7:54 AM EST
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Open Letter: Recommended Reading for the Pannel
Sorry my bandwith at my current location is very limited... __________________As you start the process may I suggest you seek copies of the following Pride Toronto documents, which all contain information that is current to this juncture of the organizations history? ______Recommendations for Community Consultation and PT Restructuring [written but not officially submitted to the records in 2004] _____The 2005: 5 Year Strategic Plan Report Card _____The 2006/07 Event Audit _____The 2006/07 Site Audit _____The 2006/07 Study and Proposal to Host World Pride 2012 and InterPride 08 _____And the original PT Work Plan/Critical Path: which will help you to understand that building the annual Pride event is a 14-month process. _____Talk with David Anderson, former Chair, and ask for copies of his discussion papers on PT Board Models. _____The Entertainment Committee Manual: which includes a rudimentary breakdown of the site and flags how different communities interact within it during Pride
Mark Smith, Toronto Ontario
08/25/10 2:59 PM EST
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