Toronto city council dodges responsibility for Pride censorship
TORONTO NEWS / It was the usual kind of sleazy move: McCaskell
Scott Dagostino / National / Monday, June 14, 2010
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Councillor Giorgio Mammoliti's motion to defund Pride Toronto was withdrawn at the city hall executive committee meeting this morning. Pride Toronto's decision to censor any "Israeli apartheid" messaging rendered the motion redundant.  

Video maker Roy Mitchell was one of a number of activists prepared to depute the motion but was left unheard. Citing "a vacuum of leadership here," Mitchell says, "the city got Pride to do its dirty work."

"It was the usual kind of sleazy move," agrees Tim McCaskell, speaking for the contested activist group Queers Against Israeli Apartheid. 

"Rather than hear the deputations, they essentially said, 'Pride's already done the dirty work so we don't have to deal with it anymore.' They basically ducked the whole issue," McCaskell says. "That's especially disappointing given that the city was so instrumental in putting pressure on Pride."

Read the complete background here.

Mammoliti's motion was up for a full council vote last month but an 11th-hour intervention from Kyle Rae had it punted to today's executive council meeting for a vote. In between, Pride Toronto elected to censor messaging and stave off any vote against them.

When Mammoliti issued his ultimatum back in April, he insisted Pride Toronto should be "the ones who have to make this decision." Now, Dan Leggieri, his media relations director, says, "Everything went the way we hoped it would. Pride Toronto lived up to the agreed-upon standard and upheld what councillor Mammoliti and other members of council asked them to do, so there's no need to withdraw any funding at this point."

Toronto city councillor and mayoral candidate Giorgio Mammoliti
With earlier talk of Pride Toronto's funding in 2011 being jeopardized by QuAIA's involvement in the parade, says Leggieri, "all councillor Mammoliti did was expedite the process for a resolution he feels is correct." Leggieri rejects any notion that Mammoliti has moved to stifle debate. "It's not a matter of censorship," he says. "It was deemed inappropriate that Pride Toronto was allowing this group to participate."

But deemed by who? Through all of this, says McCaskell, "it's never been up to any vote in the city, so no councillor has ever been able or required to take responsibility for this issue." While it's easy to point fingers at Mammoliti, McCaskell says the councillor is "running last in the mayoralty campaign and looking for any kind of publicity. If he can endear himself to the right wing by getting Pride defunded, he's gonna try it." The real problem, says McCaskell, is city councillors "evading their responsibilites."

"We're preparing to put in an omsbudsman complaint about the city's behaviour in this because they've basically contravened their own policy on this," says McCaskell, noting that Mammoliti and others consulted with gay lawyer Martin Gladstone, who self-produced an anti-QuAIA documentary called Reclaiming Our Pride. 

McCaskell says the city listened to "someone I consider an unregistered lobbyist without ever advising us we were being discussed. They cooperated with slanderous accusations against us without ever giving us an opportunity to reply. There was no process to determine whether we had ever broken any city bylaw, and they made statements to the press that we might have, in order to put pressure on Pride."

Mitchell, now part of the Pride Coalition for Free Speech, stresses he's not a member of QuAIA but cheers the group on. 
"The other side is such a mystery to me," he says. "Aside from Martin Gladstone, who are the groups representing this community that 'doesn't feel safe?' So many queer groups have spoken up to support free speech; where's the list for the other side? If there's that many people phoning up Pride and saying, 'I don't feel safe,' form a group and march too! How can we say this is a polarizing issue when it's just a few people?"

Pride Toronto executive director Tracey Sandilands has claimed that groups have bailed out of the parade over fears of violence due to QuAIA's involvement but won't say who. Mitchell scoffs at the secrecy: "Even the membership list at Pride is secret. Everything is veiled in secrecy."

Pride Toronto did not return Xtra's call for an interview.

Mitchell says previous attempts at Pride censorship have been equally offensive.

"People have tried to get TNT Naked Men banned. Those crazy Raelians were banned because they said something against the Catholic Church, who've done so well with public relations, and then this contract Pride makes performers sign saying they won't say anything political on the stage -- all this censorship happening and who is it making Pride safe for? It's not a safe space! You're not going to not be offended at Pride... it's not a bridal show!"

Through the controversy, both the city and Pride Toronto have insisted that the festival should be a "celebration" and not political.

"How do you celebrate being gay without it being political?" Mitchell laughs. "You can be involved in politics and still get laid. What if there are people who want to form the group 'Queers Against Greenland Whaling?' Don't we want to see our community mobilize around issues and not be complacent about them?"

Thanks to the city's punting the issue back to the Pride board, Mitchell says, "We're left in a limbo-land again," and more importantly, nothing has been settled. The word "apartheid" may be stifled, he says, "but it's never been about the word." Ten years ago, Mitchell says, activists were criticized for calling the Gaza situation an "occupation," but now "that's the word they're asked to use instead of 'apartheid,' which gets more attention."

Ultimately, Mitchell says, "I don't want to be part of a censorious community. We fought hard enough to be inclusive, but now to see our language and diversity being used against us is Orwellian." McCaskell says QuAIA will be marching in the parade regardless: "We're not a hate group. We haven't broken any policy; it's simply our politics that they don't like." 


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Reader Comments


 
The basic facts
Let's always keep at the forefront of our minds the basic facts about Pride Toronto and Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA). The facts are simple and clear. The two primary requirements for participation in Pride are to be: (1.) part or supportive of the LGBT community; and, (2.) law-abiding. QuAIA (see: http://www.quaia.org) meets both of these requirements. Singling out one group that meets the requirements and then banning its lawful political speech is censorship (see: http://tinyurl.com/censordef2). In Canada, freedom of expression -- including lawful political speech -- is constitutionally protected as a fundamental right. That right is a foundational pillar of any liberal democracy.
Rick, London Ontario
06/14/10 6:28 PM EST
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anti discrimination
Good for you, Rich, you're first on the draw again! There are limits on free speech. The same anti discrimination rules that protect us as gays protect Jews against being targeted with hateful messages in a City sponsored event.
BJ, Hamilton ON
06/14/10 6:41 PM EST
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It's Miller time... TO GO!
So, last year when the B'nai Brith screamed "anti-Semitism" against a play at the City-owned Theatre Passe Muraille, Mayor Miller told B'nai Brith to buzz off (http://tinyurl.com/pavpy4). But this time, Miller is unwilling to oppose the censorship and to stand up for the LGBT community. Absolutely shameful. Mayoral candidate Joe Pantalone -- from Miller's circle -- also sided with the Israel Lobby and the Conservative homophobes who tried to de-fund Pride. Pathetic. Never mind that the grounds for de-funding Pride were totally spurious; see http://tinyurl.com/mm49-12rev for an analysis and http://ccla.org/?p=5098 for an opinion from the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
Rick, London Ontario
06/14/10 6:45 PM EST
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Criticizing a government isn't 'discrimination'
The group QuAIA has Jewish members and opposes apartheid -- not Israel, and not Jewish people. It opposes particular policies and actions of the State of Israel. That's not discrimination, harassment, or hate; that's lawful political speech. If it's hate, then call the cops. And see the CCLA's opinion: http://ccla.org/?p=5098
Rick, London Ontario
06/14/10 6:49 PM EST
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Move on people
There is no way I'm the only person who wants Middle-East politics kept out of the fucking parade. Don't bring your fucked up politics to my Pride Parade.
Chris, Toronto ON
06/14/10 9:19 PM EST
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may be too late for this year
It may be too late to do what has to be done to restore free expression to Pride for this year at least. But we have lots of time to get this censorship decision reversed by next year's Pride. At the very least its most important that we restore free expression before the World Pride in 2014 when the spotlight will be on us and we'll be wanting to show the world that Toronto's Pride is a vibrant diverse and proud celebration, its hard to be proud of Pride when it censors its own community members. This fight won't be over until dignity is returned to Toronto Pride and censorship ended, however long that may take. The pro-censorship side is very adept at blackmail, lobbying and working the halls of power as we've seen but they only represent a relatively small number of LGBT folks and outside pressure groups who can't bring themselves to organize publicly and who seem to prefer staying in the shadows while the free expression side has always been very public and open about what its up too and has more public support as seen in the response of so many to Pride Inc's censorship decision. One of the benefits of staying in the shadows like hte pro-censorship side has been doing is that many folks who aren't politically aware and who can't be bothered reading up on the situation seem to be blaming QuAIA largely because the pro-censorship side stays hidden and the free speech advocates and QuAIA have been so open and public getting most of the attention. I think it'll be important to remind folks about the pro-censorship side's responsibility in creating all this controversy in the first place, if they had any respect for free speech they would have responded like in past years by championing Israel's positive qualities in the parade instead of silencing opinions they don't share.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/14/10 9:24 PM EST
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re: Move on people
Chris QuAIA are members of the LGBT community in Toronto and therefore have every right to participate in an LGBT event at Pride which is supposed to be reflecting and celebrating the diversity and fabulousness of the that community. No one likes every aspect of the Pride parade, a lot are opposed to the over corporatization of Pride too, the simple solution is to just turn around or ignore the parts you don't like and they'll be gone in about 1 minute or so as they march on by. Consider how important freedom of expression has been to the LGBT community and all of our past fights against censorship of our community, is it really worth attacking a right that has and continues to benefit the entire LGBT community just so you don't have to actively ignore an aspect of the march you personally don't like? Plus once censorship is established as a legitimate tool of Pride Inc you can expect the parade to get increasing more sanitized and "family friendly" in other words increasing dull and boring so that no one is made uncomfortable at all by any sort of display of sexuality or difference. Already many don't go any more since the corporations have come to dominate the entire event, remove all aspects that could make some uncomfortable and we'll have the gay Santa Claus parade, no one wants that but we'll end up with it if we don't stop censorship now.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/14/10 9:37 PM EST
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Uhm.. no.
I disagree. Marching in Toronto's Pride Parade and protesting Middle-East policy have nothing to do with each other. If QUIA was fighting for Gay rights in the Middle East, I'd completely agree. They are simply promoting a completely non-gay agenda under the auspices of the Pride Parade. I support Pride Toronto, and hope any clarification of their policy keeps any group out of the event - if that group is not promoting gay rights or celebrating gay victories. I don't need to feel comfortable. I do need to feel that the group is relevant. And this one aint. And it seems pretty disingenuous for a guy to complain about the other side resorting to lobbying, when five of seven posts on this article are made by Rich/Rick of London.
Chris, Toronto ON
06/14/10 9:50 PM EST
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The rainbow tip of the shite-coloured iceberg.
I'm starting to wonder if the City's attempt to blackmail Pride Toronto is a by-product of its recent win to host the 2014 WorldPride festivities. It's not for naught, but the official WorldPride bid produced by both Pride and Tourism Toronto* does explicitly state in its Letter of Invitation that the event would be more than just "flash and glamour," keeping in mind "what the event is truly about and who it's meant for." According to Mark Singh and Tracey Sandilands of Pride Toronto, and David Whitaker of Tourism Toronto, this would involve: (1) maintaining Pride Toronto's responsibility and commitment to serve our community; (2) remembering those before us who have fought to achieve the freedoms that we now enjoy; (3) remembering our brothers and sisters around the world who do not yet enjoy said freedoms; () and maintaining an organization and producing a festival that welcomes and plans for diversity — of ethnicity, gender,sex, age, etc. But of course: if the City of Toronto is intent on making what it likely sees as ITS international Pride event a strictly glitz-and-glam affair, then we can expect to see a lot more City-pressured changes to our festival in next three years. Especially if Singh and Sandilands don't have the integrity to keep the Pride festivities true to their original aims. *Also taglined 'YOU BELONG'... http://www.pridetoronto.com/downloads/WorldPrideBidFINAL.pdf
Martin O., Toronto Ontario
06/14/10 10:41 PM EST
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Uhm.. YES.
TO REITERATE: The facts are simple and clear. The two primary requirements for participation in Pride are to be: (1.) part or supportive of the LGBT community; and, (2.) law-abiding. QuAIA (see: http://www.quaia.org) meets both of these requirements. Singling out one group that meets the requirements and then banning its lawful political speech is censorship (see: http://tinyurl.com/censordef2). Simple facts. Plain and simple.
Rick, London Ontario
06/15/10 12:11 AM EST
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Nice lies, Rick
I think you are copying Fox News' attempt to make the facts fit your narrative. As I am sure you know but just chose to ignore, Pride Toronto's Parade regulations say *much* more than that. A quick perusal shows that the second and third paragraphs of the agreement say: "The Applicant operates in a manner consistent with the celebration of Pride and the positive value of diversity and identity in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transsexual, transgender, intersex, queer, questioning, 2 spirited and allied communities. 3) The Applicant hereby declares that policies upholding equal opportunity and non-discrimination have been adopted, by which discrimination on the grounds of Race, Colour, Creed, National Origin, Religious or Political affiliation, Sex, Age, Personal or Family Relationships, Disabilities, HIV/AIDS, Income Restrictions, Union Affiliation, Sexual Orientation and Gender Orientation is prohibited by the organization/business or individual." And this little clause pops out as well: "Pride Toronto retains the right to refuse any application, and remove entries from the Parade without liability." But nice try trying to make your own rules for the parade. Like I said originally, keep Middle East politics out of the fucking Pride Parade.
Chris, Toronto ON
06/15/10 8:52 AM EST
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read it again Chris
Chris your own quote mentions "the positive value of diversity and identity in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transsexual, transgender, intersex, queer, questioning, 2 spirited and allied communities." Like it or not QuAIA is a part of the diversity of those communities and middle east politics won't be absent without QuAIA marching, there will still be the pro-Israeli side marching. There have always been LGBT groups marching in the parade whose focus isn't strictly on LGBT issues, lots of them so having groups like QuAIA marching isn't new. Besides just because Pride Inc. rights a rule doesn't make it right, that's the whole point of the free speech advocates, its not Pride Inc's event, its the LGBT communities' event that Pride Inc organizes on our behalf. You don't want middle east politics in the parade? frankly neither do I but I support the right of QuAIA and any other LGBT group to march so long as they aren't using hate speech. Its also never been determined whether QuAIA violates the city's anti-discrimination clause, the second part of your quote, no one except the Canadian Civil Liberties Association has actually examined the issue and the say QuAIA presence does not violate the anti-discrimination clause, the city has only ever said they might violate it. Besides Chris Pride isn't just for you, its for the entire LGBT community in Toronto and there are many, including myself, who want to see the parade retain its political edge and who feel its far better to err on the side of inclusion and representation of the entire LGBT community in Toronto, it will still be 99% middle east politics free for those who don't want to hear about it and some discomfort is a small price to pay for upholding the right of free expression which has always been so important in defending our community.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 11:00 AM EST
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Part and supportive
Yes, well I guess the nuance is whether or not you consider a coven of attention-whores using hateful language (as decided by Queen's Park) against Israel, in a forum that is not about geopolitics, to be "part and supportive" of the LGBT community. The City and PT obviously contrived a situation which enabled them politically and administratively to avoid an outcome that nobody wanted. Enough said.
William, Montreal QC
06/15/10 11:19 AM EST
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to william
You call them a coven of attention whores using "hateful" language, that last part no one understands reall, but at least they were not responsible for the deaths of about 3,000 people, most of whom were children in two recent wars. At least they didn't just shoot 9 people at close range while at the same time claiming to be the victims (imagine, the other side had IDF soldiers for hours and no one killed them), at least they haven't built an open air prison for 1.5 million people, at least they don't make videos making fun of the flotilla incident, at least they don't claim that all criticism of them is hatred or racism, at least they haven't created a paranoid racist culture that de-humanizes arabs and muslims and that prevents them from taking any responsibilities for their actions. What William, if anything, is Israel's fault? I mean a bunch of Jewish people (QuAIA is mostly Jewish) and queer people (who face a lot more harassment that Jewish people do around the world, and in particular Canada) identify with the plight of palestinians and not israelis... how did this happen? William, what have they done to you? It almost seems like this war has made a lot of insane people who can't see pass their noses.
Sean, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 12:10 PM EST
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Missing the point
Rick/Rich. So tell me, how is QAIA operating "in a manner consistent with the celebration of Pride and the positive value of diversity and identity in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transsexual, transgender, intersex, queer, questioning, 2 spirited and allied communities?" The answer, is they are not. They are simply leeching off Pride Toronto's event to promote their own agenda. In fact, they are no different than a non-sponsor trying to sneak a float into the parade to take advantage of the million+ people celelebrating their Pride. As far as the "Pro-Israel" group goes, they get to march in the parade because they are celebrating their Queer identity, not attacking anyone. Which is what the Parade is intended to be.
Chris, Toronto ON
06/15/10 12:33 PM EST
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@Chris
Chris - QuAIA fits into Pride because it is an organization run by queers, they have a political opinion, many other, what you would call *non-gay rights* political groups have marched in the parades in the past, they qualify to march because they adhere to the only two qualifiers to march, which are to be gay and or supportive and be legal. One could argue that allowing a Jewish group to march with the Israeli flag could be threatening to gay Palestinians or Arabs from nations with which Israel has been at war. You say that that group should be allowed to march becasue they are not attacking anyone, they are simply celebrating queer life - obviously you know nothing about the history of gay liberation in Toronto, Canada (let alone the rest of the world)which was built on outrage. Early activists "attacked" Canadian policies and laws and demanded change. I don't beleive for a second that QuAIA is attacking anything but policy, they are not attacking a nation or it's people, only it's Apartheid policy. They are a legitimate organization and they deserve to march with the rest of the community. Censorship has no place here.
J Roman, Toronto ON
06/15/10 1:21 PM EST
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Chris gets it
Yes, I don't understand why they couldn't simply go with a message of compassion and love for Palestinian gays and lesbians - which as reported in Xtra a few days ago, is more or less what they decided to do in Edmonton. The answer, of course, is because they are more interested in drawing attention to themselves than they are in actually helping Palestinians. The most tangible thing anybody could do right now to help gays and lesbians in unsafe countries is to lobby the Federal government to facilitate access to refugee status. But of course, these morons probably find that a little too difficult and boring.
William, Montreal QC
06/15/10 1:27 PM EST
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@William
William please tell us what qualifies you to tell everyone else what the best ways are to help gay people in other nations? Do you have connections with gay people in Arab countries? Do you even have any friends in your own community that are Arab or Muslim? QuAIA has connections to LGBT groups in Israel/Palestine whom they listen to and respect. So please go ahead and tell the rest of us what qualifies you to know what is best for gays in other nations?! I doubt if you even know who your own MP or MPP is, without having to look it up.
J Roman, Toronto ON
06/15/10 1:47 PM EST
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Don't assume anything
I love when activists assume they are the only one who truly understands an issue. @J. You also say there are only two prerequisites to march in the parade. That is patently false. The parade regulations states exactly what I quoted in an above post. These regulations have been around for a decade, and seem to have served the community well. If you (or anyone) wishes to change this policy, you simply have to raise the issue at one of Pride Toronto's general meetings. Then the membership will vote on it. Also, love the personal attacks on myself and @William. For the record, I do in fact understand the history of gay liberation here in Canada. And know this issue has *nothing* to do with gay rights in any way. And the QAIA is not promoting the values that Pride Toronto is all about. They are simply trying to use the organization to promote their own decidedly-non-gay agenda.
Chris, Toronto ON
06/15/10 2:15 PM EST
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I don't answer personal attacks
I don't answer personal attacks, although I can understand why a supporter of these vicious, lazy morons might try to resort to this pathetic tactic.
William, Montreal QC
06/15/10 2:17 PM EST
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for you william
Because love and compassion is not what the palestinians need, they need justice and an end to their oppression regardless of whether they are loved or people feel compassion for them. They need someone to put pressure on Israel to want peace. They need to be treated like human beings with all the rights that all other human beings have. William, your racism shows.
sean, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 2:20 PM EST
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And it comes to this
@William. Welcome to Middle-East politics. When you disagree, they insult you and call you a racist. Another reason to keep them out of the parade.
Chris, Toronto ON
06/15/10 2:24 PM EST
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Chris
I don't consider myself an activist Chris, I have never gone to a protest, I don't belong to any group... but I think that I have something that most pro-Israel supporters don't have, and it is that I originally approached the subject without any emotional ties to it and without any biases. I am not jewish and I am not muslim and I believe all human beings should be treated the same. I understand the conflict just as well as you do if not better and I am unwilling to bend my morals to say that Israel's actions are justified. They are absolutely not justified. Neither lebanon nor Gaza were justified. Their peace offer was an insult to any people. Those three events, and many more but let us concentrate on those three, are insanely aggressive, insulting, anti-peace, inhuman, etc, regardless of the broader conflict. How can you defend the actions of a government that killed so many children? At what point is your human decency on hold to defend Israel?
sean, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 2:28 PM EST
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a question for you Chris
Chris, let me ask you a question, you understand the middle east so well, what would be a just peace? I am curious. What solution is there that can put an end to this that you consider to be fair and just to everyone involved?
sean, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 2:32 PM EST
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This is why I avoid Pride Toronto
What ever happened to the Pride where we all looked forwared to a joyous day filled with happy people getting together in Toronto to express their identity and have fun in the sun ? We came down feeling relaxed about being ourselves. Well I for one have been noticing that Pride Toronto is no longer Gay Pride, it's gotten so huge and so out of hand that in recent years I have avoided much of the weekend (and skipped some of them entirely) because I am not fearful of alot of people causing havoc and chaos at this same parade I used to consider relaxing and fun. Am I the only one that feels like this ? It's to bad, we have a city with so many great people of different backgrounds and identities with so much to offer too. I think I'll stick to Halton Pride this year. This is way to much for me to handle.
Eric, Burlington ON
06/15/10 2:34 PM EST
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@ Sean
Racism? but of course that's what the useful idiots always use to censor people they don't agree with (funny the QuAIA likes to Censor people too and the Gaza Strip Club and they still think they can hide behind that card and they do the same).
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/15/10 2:37 PM EST
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For the record
I am neither pro-Israeli nor pro-Palestine. It is honestly a geopolitical issue for which I have no opinion at all. It doesn't involve me. And it doesn't involve Pride in Toronto either, as evidenced by the fact that the gays have not been pouring out of Woody's to protest this so called injustice situation. What is unjust is how much time and energy this non-issue has consumed, when kids are still jumping off bridges, people are still catching HIV, and yes, gays and lesbians are still queuing in our refugee system trying to escape persecution and enjoy the civil liberties and rights that should be the focus of our celebration at Pride. By the way, J Roman, I did forget to mention that Quebec doesn't have MPPs. Maybe you should spend some more time worrying about politics in your own country than those of other people.
William, Montreal QC
06/15/10 2:38 PM EST
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You still don't get it.
I am not pro-Israeli. On the best of days their politics piss me off and I think the Western world needs to rethink our support of the regime. I don't want to discuss Middle-East issues because they are irrelevant to the issue. The issue is that QAIA is a parasite looking to gain support by sucking the host that is Pride Toronto. They don't align with the values of the organization or the parade (as outlined in all Pride Toronto materials and regulations - and all approved by the membership over the years.)
Chris, Toronto ON
06/15/10 2:40 PM EST
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Wrong, Chris: Look at the facts
The facts are simple and clear. The two primary requirements for participation in Pride are to be: (1.) part or supportive of the LGBT community; and, (2.) law-abiding. QuAIA (see: http://www.quaia.org) meets both of these requirements. Singling out one group that meets the requirements and then banning its lawful political speech is censorship (see: http://tinyurl.com/censordef2).
Rick, London Ontario
06/15/10 2:53 PM EST
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well Chris and William
I don't know how old you two are, it appears you have not been watching Pride Toronto carefully, it has always had these kinds of groups. That is, before you came out, and before I came out, there have always been contingents fighting injustices in other parts of the world. That gay boys in Woody's aren't jumping out doesn't mean that gay people don't care. I still go out dancing even if I care. Hundreds and hundreds of gay people seem to care enough to either support QuAIA or support movements to keep Pride Toronto open to all such groups, so to say that most gay people don't care... most people don't care about anything. I would go as far as to say that most people don't care about bath houses. Certaily very few lesbians care. A significant amount of queer people seem to care? Don't you think? I am not a QuAIA member and I care. All the people who rejected honours by Pride Toronto care. People posting here care. The hundreds of people who went to the meeting at the 519 cared (I didn't go, but I care). I can guarantee you that we can fill a few spaces as big as Woody's with people who care. Also, the people who you are calling parasites are in some cases the same people who fought for your rights as a homosexual and continue to do so. Even the new ones are the kind of people within the homosexual community who put themselves in the front line so you and I could have rights. It amazes me though that there are so many people who have never fought for their rights and thus take it for granted who think these people are hijacking Pride. Without people like this you wouldn't have a pride. I certainly know I wouldn't because I don't like public demonstrations. People like this made it possible for me and you to come out. A number of QuAIA members have a history of doing things for our community. How are they the parasites then? They built the damn thing and mae it possible for you to go to Woodys.
sean, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 2:56 PM EST
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No Rick
@ Rick. You keep making shit up. Despite what you want them to say, The Parade regulations say this: "The Applicant operates in a manner consistent with the celebration of Pride and the positive value of diversity and identity in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transsexual, transgender, intersex, queer, questioning, 2 spirited and allied communities." They don't follow these guidelines. They are a political group, using the parade to pass on their political message. And because of that shouldn't be allowed in the parade. Sorry, but it's pretty clear.
Chris, Toronto ON
06/15/10 2:59 PM EST
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@Chris & William
William just called a minority group "lazy, vicious and morons". Chris just defended William's right to stereotype a group without being called a racist and, also felt the insulted should be excluded because they can only bring out the racist in people like William. I do not claim to be a ME expert but it is not difficult to note the fascistic nature of your positions. Wow!
JG, Toronto ON
06/15/10 3:07 PM EST
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Sean, a rebuttal
Sean, I appreciate your arguments, and I will try to reply with the same respect. Although I am not involved with Pride now, I volunteered about 1,000 hours a year for a decade... way back when. The difference with this group is that they are *not* fighting for gay rights. They are *not* celebrating diversity. They are *not* supporting gays and lesbians in any way. They are simply using the parade to promote their political agenda - which has nothing to do with gay equality or rights. I repeat that they are no better than a corporation sneaking into the parade to promote their new condo or product. Parasites are parasites. And the rest of the community is being short-changed because *nobody* is focusing on gay issues right now - and there are so many better issues that need our attention, time and focus.
Chris, Toronto ON
06/15/10 3:14 PM EST
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@Chris
So when African American were marching for their civil rights they should have excluded, let say femminists, from marching with them because their plight had nothing to do with "Black" issues?
JG, Toronto ON
06/15/10 3:27 PM EST
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Not a minority group
QUAIA is not a minority group anymore than the Scarborough Cat-Hair Knitting Society is a minority group.
William, Montreal QC
06/15/10 3:29 PM EST
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@JG
No, but people promoting a lower speed limit on I-95 should have been banned from using the march for their own benefit. And that is pretty much what is happening here. There is no connection between what QAIA is demanding and gay rights.
Chris, Toronto ON
06/15/10 3:36 PM EST
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@William
QuAIA advocates for queer Palestinians does it not? Who were you calling lazy, vicious morons? QuAIA or the Palestinians?
JG, Toronto ON
06/15/10 3:40 PM EST
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Are you crazy
I'm referring to QUAIA of course! Hello?!
William, Montreal QC
06/15/10 3:47 PM EST
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Support for homophobic cultures is stupid!
It's disappointing that some Toronto gays and lesbians are upset about the banning of the anti-semitic QUAIA from Toronto's Pride parade. Israel is the only country in the middle east that offers a range of rights for gays and lesbians. Can you imagine a Pride parade in Iran or Saudi Arabia? No, you can't, because all of the parade attendees would be executed. The supporters of QUAIA are obviously so intoxicated on notions of "social justice" that they can't see the illogicalness of their support for homophobic cultures. It's utterly stupid for gays and lesbians to support the QUAIA. Shame on you!
tubu, toronto ontario
06/15/10 4:03 PM EST
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@William
Thank you for clarifying; your statement was misleading. Nevertheless, I think calling lazy and vicious a group like QuAIA, even if you disagree with them, unfair. The issue remains one of freedom of expression.
JG, Toronto ON
06/15/10 4:07 PM EST
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Freedom of gay expression, not anti-gay expression
JG, The issue is NOT about "freedom of expression," per se -- rather, it's about gay and lesbian rights. And to allow an anti-semitic group to co-opt the Pride parade by inserting the word "Queer" in their group's name is both exploitive and specious. Why support homophobic cultures at Pride? That's just plain stupid!
tubu, toronto ontario
06/15/10 4:13 PM EST
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Read This
Anyone commenting on this issue - and specifically those not understanding how this is a political and censorship issue - would be well-advised to read this letter from someone intimately familiar with this complex issue: http://www.facebook.com/notes/pride-coalition-for-free-speech/my-intended-city-executive-committee-deputation-elle-flanders/130396026989670
Ryan, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 5:14 PM EST
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Have you gone through the list of people in QuAIA
Some of the most vocal people in QuAIA, including their spokespeople, have done a lot for this community including Pride Chris. As for J's example... could a parade for civil rights for black people had included gay rights, you would have said they didn't belong? How is being gay a black issue? Certainly as much as being palestinian.
Chris, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 5:49 PM EST
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Eaton's
QuAIA should change its name to "Present Receivers Against Israeli Apartheid" and march in the Eaton's Christmas Parade instead.
William, Montreal QC
06/15/10 6:42 PM EST
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limitations on freedom of speech to stop discrimin
Why doesn't Quaia, add to their banner "Queers against terror towrds Israeli and prejudices imposed on jewish people everywhere by Islamic nations" By the way, made up of many muslims that simply were raised to see Jews as the enemy, and worthy of death. With this being part of muslim heritage, how can anyone feel safe with them parading against Israel, and all that represents. people equate Israel, with Judaism. So, Queers that are stating Quaia is only attacking Israeli policies, is nothing short of manipulative language.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 7:03 PM EST
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jamie
I think when Israeli people are as terrorized as palestinains such a group will appear. It might even be the same people. But, considering the differences in the amount of terror suffered by palestinians (when was the last time any arab country killed over 1000 israelis in 3 weeks)? I am afraid they are just going to have to wait your turn. Even better, if you can get the Israeli government to truly seek peace, then maybe no one needs to be terrorized anymore. Discrimination is what happens when people hate you because you are an ethnic group, not when people criticize you for your actions. If you can´t tell the difference something is lacking in you.
sean, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 7:49 PM EST
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re: tubu
tubu please present some evidence of QuAIA's alleged anti-semitism, they were founded mainly by Jewish Israeli-Canadians so I seriously doubt they'd allow any anti-semitism in their human rights group but you say you know better so please prove it. Also homophobic cultures abound in this world, including Canada in spite of our legal equality as witnessed by the recently released news that violent hate crimes against gays have surged, and in most other countries including the US and Israel LGBT folks are still second class citizens by law and the culture isn't much better considering the massive opposition to marriage equality in the US and the storm of protest in Israel over a world Pride celebration being held in Jerusalem a few years back not to mention the shooting in gay bar in Israel. These sorts of things wouldn't happen in any country if they didn't have a homophobic culture. But you are right in that there are more rights for LGBT folks in Israel than in the surrounding countries, so how does that mean Israel shouldn't be criticized for its policies that deny basic human rights to Palestinians in the occupied territories? Its that sort of reasoning that lead to the creation of QuAIA in the first place. I'm not going into their background check out their website for that info yourself http://queersagainstapartheid.org/ Btw they didn't just insert the word queer into their name, they are a group of queers and many of its members have a long history of activism on human rights issues, including LGBT issues, over the years in Toronto. They are a apart of the LGBT community in Toronto whether you like it or not and as such they have every right to march in the Pride parade.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 9:48 PM EST
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re: Jamie
Talk about manipulative language! by trying to claim that Israel and Judaism are the same things you are saying that criticizing Israeli policy is criticizing Judaism. Since when is a state's policies or a state for that matter and its major ethnic group indistinguishable? Now that is manipulative language and based on total falsehoods too. Jews around the world and in Israel may feel an affinity with Israel but they are not the state of Israel's policies, that's comparing apples and oranges. You seem to be assuming that people are much more stupid than they really are, maybe actual anti-semites see Israel and Jews as being one and the same thing, you can see it in anti-semitic comments where they blame Jews in general for the problems in Israel whereas people who are not anti-semitic don't blame every Jew for the problems in Israel, they blame the Israeli gov't and its policies. The notion that we criticize all Jews when we criticize Israeli policy is only ever used by anti-semites or those trying to silence criticism of Israel. Btw many of the members of QuAIA are Jewish, I'm not sure why you assume only Muslims would be critical of Israeli policy but I suspect its the flipside of your argument that all Muslims are raised to hate all Jews and want them all to die, in that many folks, and not just Jews, are raised to see Muslims as terrorists and savages not deserving of the same human rights that everyone else is entitled to. Raised with that point of view, which is just as racist as the Muslims seeing all Jews as the enmey btw, I guess its not surprising you would see danger where none exists. The fact is QuAIA has never used hate speech, is not anti-Israel let alone anti-semitic and their presence does not violate the city's anti-discrimination policy as shown by numerous legal opinions on the matter. If some feel threatened by QuAIA its not because they're threatening in any way but the rampant paranoia that is created by some to fuel their political ambitions.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 10:16 PM EST
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The Name is the Problem
Rich/Rick/Zezi you repeat the same nonsense. The name - Queers Against Israeli Apartheid - is the problem to the extent that the City of Toronto deemed it discriminatory. Just because you disagree, doesn't make it any less so. Your freedom of expression ends when you discriminate against a protected group. You'd think GAYS, another protected group, would understand that.
Cyrus, Toronto ON
06/15/10 10:30 PM EST
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Wrong again, Chris
The Pride regulations you've cited in no way preclude the participation of QuAIA. In fact, they are an additional argument FOR QuAIA's participation; note the reference to "diversity" which, to my mind, includes political diversity. Regardless, what matters most is the historical record. And, looking at all the past parades, for example, it is clear that there are only two primary requirements for participation in Pride: (1) part or supportive of the LGBT community; and, (2) law-abiding. To repeat: QuAIA meets both of these criteria. Thus, singling out QuAIA and then banning its lawful political speech is censorship. Plain and simple.
Rick, London Ontario
06/15/10 10:41 PM EST
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re: Cyrus
Actually Cyrus the city has never determined that QuAIA, its name or messaging has ever violated the city's anti-discrimination policy, one staffer who never examined the issue said it might. However there are least 3 independent legal opinions from those who have actually studied the issue that says it does not violate the city's anti-discrimination policy, two consulted by Pride Inc and the other from the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. In fact some members of QuAIA were hoping to get he city to actually examine the issue and to rule on it since they're confident that an independent examination of the issue by the city would find the same results as all the other legal opinions on the matter. Now here's the ironic part, without a doubt Pride Inc censoring QuAIA does actually violate the city's anti-discrimination policy since they are discriminating against a group based on political belief which isn't allowed under the policy. The notion that QuAIA violates the city's policies is just another lie being told by the pro-censorship side based on the city's refusal to actually examine the issue like others have done. LGBT folks know discrimination and bigotry when they see it and they know when they don't see it as well. If you have ever seen actual anti-semitc writings and comments you'd realize in an instant how very different it is from any messaging from QuAIA, the two are miles apart and the attempt to label QuAIA as anti-semitic is just an attempt to silence criticism of Israel and nothing more.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 10:58 PM EST
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X-tra editor has a conflict
Scott Agostino may have done this story but there's no hiding the fact that your editor Matt Mills was on the list with the other QuAIA and so-called free speech advocates to speak to the city's Executive Committee. So much for objective journalism. Just proves all the more that X-tra is in bed with the anti-Israel hatemongerers and does not speak for most of the gay community.
Sally Ann, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 11:46 PM EST
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Re: X-tra editor has a conflict
I agree wholeheartedly with Sally Ann.
Mary Lou, Toronto Ontario
06/15/10 11:59 PM EST
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Sean
Sean, you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth and you cannot see what or how you are contradicting yourself. First of all, Most people arab and other nations equate Israel with Judaism. If you and Quaia actully think that yelling anti israel on the streets does no harm to jewish people everywhere you would be plainly mistaken. Your sweeping statement that in fact that Israel killed a certain number of palestians as Retaliation for Palestians trying to kill Israelis in suicide bombing attacks is unjustified. War is awful and dirty, and I wish it did not exist, but it does. People going on public buses in Israel face Palestian suicide bobmers trying to murder as many as they can. Are you suggesting that the IDF should count how many propotuonately should be harmed by retaliation. If Hamas does not stop terrorism, then Israel has a right to defend its citizens. You seem to be angry that the palestians come with knives to a gun fight? All the neighboring arab countries can arm the palestians with the same military power if that would be justice. But they dont, for good reson. They are aware this is not soley about the terrotories and settlements. This is about their intense dislike for the people in Israel. Why dont you tell Galid Shalits mother and some other mothers who lost there children to a qusam rocket that hit a nursery. Israel just offered Hamas 1000 of there prisoners for one kidnapped Israeli soldier. Hasmas and palestians said no to the deal. Just a few months ago. Now, tell me again, how I should stand in line for you and Quaia to defend me? Gilad Shalit? You are sadly naieve. But, If Quaia suceeds in turning people against Israel and its people, we unfortunately will see the fruits of their labor, and they then could switch over to protecting queer Jews. They get to be a Queeroes twice.
Jamie, Toronto ontario
06/16/10 12:21 AM EST
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Xtra
There is a difference between supporting QuAIA and supporting freedom of expression. Xtra has consistently supported free speech.
JG, Toronto ON
06/16/10 12:41 AM EST
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Rich
Rich, when you commented on Jamies post it occurred to me that you are not old enough to say to jamie or any other jew that there is no equation between the state of Israel and Jewish people. This is not about only Israeli policy, no more then a and an "Israeli goverment". They are not governed but riligious conviction, but by safety. If Jamie was old enough to experience the holocaust era, you have the right to tell him his paranoia is unjustified, and delusional. But take a minute, maybe he lived it, and knows for a fact that The majority of the world does recognize the state of Israel , being whats called "the Jewish state" even in the UN. The "powerful" conservatives as said, dont stop free speech for any "group" in the city. This issue is more on both sides, and intensely personal to both groups. I understand, Quaia and you have difficulty with the idea of "Both" people, but there are others who were offended and equally as Quaia voiced their opposition.
Hannah, toronto Ontario
06/16/10 1:10 AM EST
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Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitisim
Q: "Is everybody who criticizes Israel an anti-Semite?" A: "Absolutely not. Somebody who criticizes Israel for certain of our actions cannot be accused of anti-Semitism for that. But somebody who hates Israel because it is a Jewish state, like the Hungarian in the joke, is an anti-Semite. It is not always easy to distinguish between the two kinds, because shrewd anti-Semites pose as bona fide critics of Israel's actions. But presenting all critics of Israel as anti-Semites is wrong and counter-productive, it damages the fight against anti-Semitism. Many deeply moral persons, the cream of humanity, criticize our behavior in the occupied territories. It is stupid to accuse them of anti-Semitism." MORE Q&A ON THIS TOPIC AT: http://tinyurl.com/32vljuq
Rick, London Ontario
06/16/10 1:41 AM EST
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Rick
Rick, I agree with you. Many Anti Semites blame Israel in order to point the finger towards the Jewish people. I appreciate what you have said that it is not always easy to distinguish people who are only attacking Israeli policy and the "shrewd" anti semites. That being the case, why wouldnt Quaia alter there language to show support for Jewish people in general, rather then the Jewish people that belong to their contingent? Quaia, could have sat down with pride toronto before the ban, and hold a meeting to revise there language so Jewish people who support there homeland Israel would not be worrying about incresed anti semetism as a result. Most people are not deep thinkers, if many in the world know politically "Israel is a Jewish state", that is what the UN calls them, why not why wouldn't Quaia just use language that can't by accident further anti semetism. You said yourself, it is difficult to tease apart. The average Joe sees people blaming Israel for something, and they are not going to read up on it, they simply will make the well known connection, that Isarel is called the "Jewish state". That is why, some feel cannot tease apart the two and it will hurt Jewish people everywhere.
Hannah, Toronto Ontario
06/16/10 2:09 AM EST
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Sure, Hannah - but...
Here's a better question: Why didn't Pride Toronto attempt to sit down with QuAIA? PT clearly had concerns stretching back to last fall -- concerns, I might add, that the Executive Director (Tracey Sandilands) lied about. Why all the secrecy? The lies? The cover-ups? QuAIA's website, on its own, is very clear in its positions and messages. PT could have stopped there. But no, PT engaged in behind-the-scenes sneaky stuff in order to oust QuAIA. And, ultimately, it did. So, let's now return to the basic facts of the entire matter. These facts are indisputable and have never been refuted, despite all the commenting and rancor. FACTS: The two primary requirements for participation in Pride are to be: (1.) part or supportive of the LGBT community; and, (2.) law-abiding. QuAIA [http://www.quaia.org] meets both of these requirements. Now, if anybody has concrete evidence to the contrary, then please, by all means, post it so that it may be evaluated. And to reiterate: Singling out one group that meets the requirements and then banning its lawful political speech is censorship [http://tinyurl.com/censordef2]. If an organization, like PT, planned all along to censor members of our LGBT community, then why didn't PT bother to do its homework, first? PT, not QuAIA, is the aggressor.
Rick, London Ontario
06/17/10 3:37 AM EST
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@ Hannah
Hannah writes: "Many Anti Semites blame Israel in order to point the finger towards the Jewish people." Yes - but not all people who criticize Israel are automatically anti-semitic. You have repeatedly blurred this important distinction many times on these discussion threads. Secondly, I remind you that gays were also marched into the concentration camps and the gas chambers during the holocaust. It is not only the Jews who have, and continue to be, targets of hate and discrimination. Persecution does not give anyone a free pass from ciriticm.
gaysolomon, toronto ontario
06/17/10 4:33 AM EST
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