"Strange bedfellows" in the Israeli apartheid debate
ANALYSIS / B'nai Brith speaks at event organized by anti-gay activist Charles McVety
Scott Dagostino / National / Wednesday, June 23, 2010
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UPDATE: Pride Toronto has rescinded its ban on "Israeli apartheid" - read more here.

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Jewish advocacy group B'nai Brith commended Pride Toronto on May 14 for its decision to prevent activist group Queers Against Israeli Apartheid from marching in the Pride parade under the "Israeli apartheid" banner. In its press release, B'nai Brith Canada's executive vice-president Frank Dimant wrote, "The Pride parade is about diversity and promoting human rights. Issues that clearly do not mesh with the hateful messaging and anti-Semitism we have witnessed from QuAIA in past years."

But amidst the debate over whether calling Gaza policies "Israeli apartheid" is actually anti-Semitic, Dimant apparently has no issue meshing with the hateful messaging of Toronto Sun columnist Michael Coren, who described the Pride parade in his May 29 column as "an event where there is illegal public nudity and simulated sex, where men dress up as nuns and abuse the church and where morbidly obese lesbians pull other women around on chains. Surely it doesn't matter very much if a gang of activists try to provoke mom and dad yet again by telling everybody how nasty the Jews are."

Coren and Dimant will both speak at a "G20 Summit for Faith and Business Leaders" from June 25-27, an event organized by anti-gay activist Charles McVety, who recently torpedoed an attempt to introduce a new sex-ed curriculum in Ontario schools.

Screencap of G20.ca
With Dimant away in Israel at a conference, B'nai Brith Canada's communications officer, Dan Rabkin, insists that Dimant's working relationship with McVety doesn't equal his agreement.

"Frank is the head of a department at Canada Christian College. He teaches there on Judaism, and he and Charles have had a long relationship," Rabkin says. "They're both outspoken Zionists, and that's where they come together on issues, but in terms of all of Charles' other advocacy on social issues — gay issues, abortion, etc — we have nothing to do with any of that."

"The problem at the core of all this," says queer activist Justin Stayshyn, "is that there's no understanding or recognition at all of homophobia." B'nai Brith, he says, is happy to partner with three organizations "offensive to gay people, and it's ridiculous to see McVety speak to issues of anti-Semitism when he is clearly a homophobe."

Rabkin insists that B'nai Brith's involvement in McVety's conference only extends to issues of Iranian nuclear potential, but Elle Flanders, who is both Jewish and a member of QuAIA, asks, "What was the excuse for the pairing the time before that?" The Iran threat, she says, "has been the Israel media's spin and focus since the massacre in Gaza."

In the wake of the deadly May 31 Israeli raid on a flotilla of ships bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza, tempers have run hot. Both US journalist Helen Thomas and NDP Vancouver East MP Libby Davies have been widely condemned for their blunt, if clumsy, criticisms of Israel, but an editorial in The Province newspaper linked Davies' comments to being "an extremely left-wing, outspoken, lesbian woman."

On its Twitter feed, the Canada-Israel Committee summed it up this way: "Province ed reminds Libby mouthy lesbians aren't wanted in Gaza," but they apologized after Stayshyn and other activists reacted. B'nai Brith had condemned Davies' comments, but Rabkin is quick to point out, "We don't use that kind of language. This editorial and the kind of language used, it has nothing to do with us."

"The fact that the CIC has stooped to homophobic slurs," says Flanders, "reaffirms my contention that the groups that have stood behind Martin Gladstone, and the lobbying effort they generated, not only make for strange bedfellows but point to the compromises and political vacuousness of those in the queer community who pushed for this ban.... These people are seriously scary — both the queers who have sold out to the right-wing homophobes in exchange for their stance on Israel and of course the homophobes themselves."

"Just once," says Stayshyn, "I'd like to see the Israel lobby concede the point that homophobia exists outside of Muslim countries, instead of using the fact that they have gay marriage to excuse the occupation. The way they use us is exploitative and cynical."

Given the fact that StatsCan this year reported a rise in hate crimes against both gay people and Jews, Flanders is frustrated by how Dimant, Coren and Toronto city councillor Giorgio Mammoliti, who threatened Pride Toronto's funding in the first place, all refer to her protest group as "anti-Israel" instead of "anti-apartheid," while B'nai Brith cozies up to Charles McVety. Stayshyn says, "It's doubly frustrating to see Jewish people pair up with people who hate us. I wish their sensitivity also extended to our experience."

In his press release, Dimant wrote, "The goal of Pride Toronto is clearly to promote human rights and diversity, values Canadians hold dear. Regretfully, this goal is in danger of being subverted in the worst way." It's doubtful he'll hear his own words at McVety's G20 event.



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Reader Comments


 
Israel Lobby = Part of the Right
No surprises, here. The Israel Lobby is part of the Right in Canada. http://twitpic.com/1xjxa6
Rick, London Ontario
06/23/10 1:57 PM EST
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Who cares about B'nai Brith?
What a silly story. Is it a surprise that B'nai Brith a known ultra-right wing group that is Harper's go-to Jewish group is making nicey nice with Charlie? Not to me. And who is B'nai Brith anyway? Who do they represent? When I see a group like Canadian Jewish Congress involved in something like this I would begin to question. This is just same ol' same ol"...
Roy Ridwell, Richmond Hill ON
06/23/10 4:19 PM EST
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Disagree
I can't say that as a Queer I take offence to B'Nai Brith's participation in McVety's conference. Sgt. Paul Gillespie is also a part of this conference and his career revolves around protecting children from online predators. Why smear Diamant and Rabkin for speaking at the conference but not the Sgt.? Organizations join forces when it suits them, that doesn't mean that they agree on all issues. As far as I am aware, B'Nai Brith has never said anything against the Queer community and that is the basis on which they should be judged. These 5 degrees of separation links can be made between any two organizations.
Hank, Toronto ON
06/23/10 10:01 PM EST
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CSIS director's remarks and the current situation
It is very interesting the possible relation between members of Toronto city council opposing the wording of "Israel apartheid" during Pride and the recent statement of CSIS director about the influence of foreign powers on municipal politicians. isn't Israel a foreign power? something to reflect about.
Mark Kedrick, Toronto Ontario
06/24/10 7:01 AM EST
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Homophobia
Hank, As a Queer concerned with the growing number of hate crimes against us I do have a problem with B'nai Brith's cooperation with these homophobic groups. Homophobia is just as real and just as repulsive to me as anti-Semitism, yet to B'nai Brith the former is simply "other advocacy on social issues." A quick look at the Canada Family Action site reveals - along with an enormous list of anti-gay messaging - their support for the proposed law in Uganda that could result in the death penalty for gay people in that country. Yet B'nai Brith would dismiss support for a law that could result in the murder of gays by their government as "other advocacy on social issues." Bigotry and intolerance - in any guise - must be strongly condemned. Though I do want to add that I think the apology by the person tweeting for the CIC was genuine: "@CanIsrael: #ShabbatShalom & sincere apologies to all in #lgbt #canqueer & #cdnpoli communities for offensive tweet. Will try to learn from this error." It's my hope that B'nai Brith will commit to fighting all forms of bigotry and can learn from their own error.
Justin, Toronto Ontario
06/24/10 9:25 AM EST
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If you do not speak out then you are in agreement
Why must the gay community support censorship when we have fought many legal battles against censorship for much of our political history, and we continue to do so. Our censorship stuggle is never over. If the B'nai Brith does not speak out about homophobia and partakes in a religous right wing event with homophobic religions, then they are in agreement and are homophobic. The B'nai Brith is homophobic if they do not speak out against homophobia. Period. The gay community is diverse, multiracial, multienthnic and, unlike the jewish faith, includes people from all religions. Who will look after the interests of the gay community? An organization created along right wing religious lines like B'nai Brith? Stange bed fellows indeed.
George, Toronto Ontario
06/24/10 11:45 AM EST
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Homophobia and discrimination based on birth
Imagine a child, born gay, who has to face oppression in society by virtue of his being gay. Imagine a gay child who will be facing oppression and struggle for all of their lives by virtue of being born gay. Most readers of this know first hand about this oppression. That is what parents of gay children, who accept their gay children, fear most. We as a gay community should be fighting against homophobia in all societies and religions. That is our struggle. I don't know if the B'nai Brith is interested in our struggle. B'nai Brith has their own agenda.
Ari, Toronto Ontario
06/24/10 12:58 PM EST
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This article is not credible
Hank says: "Why smear Diamant and Rabkin for speaking at the conference but not the Sgt.?" Simple. Because they are Jewish and speak for Jewish people. ie. Anti-Semitism. What's more, "the deadly May 31 Israeli raid on a flotilla of ships bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza" actually never happened. The Mavi Marmara was filled with anti-Israel provocateurs and confessed martyrs (and some innocents who were duped into joining them) who never planned to bring aid to Gaza; but to provoke the IDF to defend themselves whereby they would kill people aboard. They disobeyed requests to bring their "aid" through official channels in order to provoke. And yes, they were in international waters, where it is perfectly legal to have a military blockade. Sigh. So much for the credibility of this article.
Suzanne Korpeil, Monteal Quebec
06/24/10 3:30 PM EST
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Provoking = death
Why wasn't the Sgt. involved in this article? Because he's not part of this current story noting how an organization whose constant mischaracterization of criticism against Israel (a country) as hate speech against Jews (a people) is then used as a basis to defund the Pride festival, even while they're partnering with Charles McVety. In my interviews, I hoped B'nai Brith would disavow that homophobic link and they did. As for the flotilla raid, I'll easily accept that the ship was full of protesters out to "provoke" Israel but nine of them are now dead (hence the word "deadly") -- is that an acceptable punishment ratio? Is that a victory for Israel? I don't see how.
Scott D, Toronto Ontario
06/24/10 4:04 PM EST
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B'nai Brith to be taken with grain of salt
I instantly start to question anything B'nai Brith has to say on anything because I don't find them to be credible. They seem determined to make Jewish folks afraid for their safety where ever there is criticism of Israel. There are others who do the same sort of thing, I read an editorial in the National Post claiming York U was extremely dangerous for Jewish students and staff because they have an Israeli apartheid week every year. They claimed Jews at York are afraid to express their faith for fear of attack and have advised Jewish students to avoid going to York. I regularly see Jewish students and staff in Jewish religious wear so I doubt they feel at all uncomfortable, York has a very large Jewish population. A group of Jewish professors wrote a letter to the NP refuting everything in their editorial but it was buried in the letters to the editor section where I'm sure few saw it. I don't know who wrote the NP editorial but I wouldn't doubt they were connected to B'nai Brith. I've also heard of a very similar type report from B'nai Brith also warning Jewish folks to avoid a part of Montreal claiming Jews there where in grave danger of attack, another group of Jews who live in the area they're warned to avoid, rabbis if I recall correctly, also wrote a letter refuting everything in the B'nai Brith report. They also include criticism of Israel in their annual report on anti-semitism in Canada while other groups only include anti-semitic violence and vandalism in their reports. I believe that B'nai Brith is more focused on their political goals than working for the benefit of Jews in Canada and their reports should be seen as political tools rather than a reflection of reality. I'm sure their association with McVety is also based solely on their shared political goals which always come first before any issue of morality or anti-discrimination. They're more interested in supporting Israel than serving the Jewish community in Canada in my opinion.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/24/10 7:34 PM EST
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Don't put words in my mouth
Whoa ... why would you even ask if nine deaths are an acceptable ratio, and if these deaths are a victory for Israel? What kind of logic would lead you to conclude that this is what I am implying? ... Just to spell it out so there's no, um, misunderstanding of my post - no, it is not an acceptable punishment ratio nor is it a victory for Israel - I don't see how either. If anyone was victorious it was the jihadists aboard the ship and those who support them. They managed to grab international headlines of a deadly, unprovoked, illegal raid on a cruise ship by IDF pirates. They were also victorious in that Israel eased the blockade soon after the flotilla incident - a pyrrhic victory on both counts.
Suzanne Korpiel, Montreal quebec
06/24/10 10:07 PM EST
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Suzanne
It just says a lot of you to call these people jihadists. They are the murdered victims of Israel. They even had their soldiers and they didn't kill them. I guess then the IDF are worst than Jihadists eh?
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/24/10 10:11 PM EST
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Suzanne Korpiel,
So what, last week Turkey killed 120 Kruds( they call them terrorist too and over 10,000 were so far killed there) and also nearly 2000 people were killed in ethic violence in Kyrgyzstan so where is the outrage over this? and note both were done by their governments. Guess what any government has the right to board ships and enforce blockades even in International Waters, Legally they could have sink all the ships with everyone on board. Even this country has boarded ships in international waters in raids on commercial ships( Canada Customs,RCMP, and our Navy do this all the time) and funny I bet you did not even see the Videos, they did not look so peaceful
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/24/10 10:19 PM EST
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Imagine
Imagine a child, born gay, who has to face oppression in society by virtue of his being gay. Imagine a gay child who will be facing oppression and struggle for all of their lives by virtue of being born gay Imagine being gay and you have to feel the realistic that if you mention a word you will be killed or jailed and beaten. That's the world of queers and lesbian in Palestine, Egypt, and Iran that Quaia is trying to create Most people in their "being left" for any reason at all - have never faced being jailed for homosexuality like in Palestine and Syria And then again imagin if your queer and lesbian and you are born in Israel which respects Gay rights
Geraldine, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 8:29 PM EST
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I guess Geraldine
It is ok to bomb them then? What a solution, let's bomb gay chidlren so they don't have to live in oppressive regimes.... let's take away their land, let's keep toy, clothes, shoes from them, let's make sure their parents can't build a home. Yes Geraldine, you are brilliant, I am surprised no one thought about that solution.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 8:48 PM EST
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@ Tam
Well I guess you will never understand what happens in War and really I hear on the news last week 2000 people were killed in ethic violence in Kyrgyzstan. I wonder how many of them were gay? Where is the outrage over this?
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/25/10 9:31 PM EST
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Oh Peter...really
Really Peter, have you ever been in war? Give me a break. How would you know what it is like at war? How would you know what it is like to be a palestnian, what it is to be an israeli? And, I know what happens in war peter, the holocaust happens in war, the armenian genocide happens in war. I hope you are not saying they were ok because it was a war. None of those things were ok... but then again... I already know how well you process information peter... I am starting to think it isn't your fault, you just can't quite do the math, literally I mean. And btw Peter, in war people say "you can't have chocolates"? no, only in oppressive one sided racist occupations that can come with or without a war. Peter, you aren't worth the carpel tunnel.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 9:52 PM EST
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the pro-Israel homophobia
This from the pro - Israel side: "JDL To Confront Hamasphrodite Hate At Pride Parade" and then they are so hypocritical as to write "SIGNS SHOULD EXPOSE THE MURDER OF GAYS IN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES"... well, if you call us names you probably shouldn´t be then using us to advance your racist views, don´t you think?
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 9:56 PM EST
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@Tam Yes I have and your just a Bitch
I have served in the Canadian Military and Yes I just think you don't understand what really happens in War and what we have to put up with and Yes it's not nice at all, but horrible stuff does happen and personally it not nice what soldiers do have to put up with or even the psychological factors that we do have to live on a daily basis and Yes sometimes civilians can get in the way, and sometimes we find certain Jihadists hiding behind them. Its happens even in wars our country are currently and I believe many in the IDF for example do have a hard time living with themselves knowing civilians have gotten killed, most soldiers when in that situation can't even handle it. Tam you can call anyone that disagree either a Zionist or even members of some Jewish Group but some of us have been on the front lines and I can't even believe what I'm hearing. Remember I fought against same Jihadists that you are supporting it just makes me sick to hear that some Useful Idiots are being their mouth pieces here in Toronto. As a Queer Man who did serve in the military I do know what war is so DON'T EVEN TRY ME ON THIS SUBJECT. When Civilians get killed it hard on all of us. I find it most interesting you or any member of the QuAIA have never been to a War Zone just living life as usual in peaceful Toronto, never knowing what war really is, personally I think you should consider your self very lucky that you don't have to deal with this, but remember there are people dying to protect our nation from this from ever happening here, and its really sad that some people are trying to import this war into our community. I say keep the Middle East War and Politics out of Pride becasue it apart of this war and believe me war is never good for anyone
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/25/10 10:37 PM EST
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The Canadian Military
First Peter, nothing better to know that you are not only stupid, but you are also sexist and throw "bitch" around like that. I am surprised they let you carry a gun considering how bright you are. I am about to shed a tear about the poor IDF soldier and you for all the civilians you have killed because "it is hard on you". You don't know what war is because in war, the front line are the civilians, not the cowards throwing missiles from afar because they are too afraid to get hurt. Do you hear me? You don't get to say you experienced war when you were throwing the bombs. That just makes you a criminal and I am sorry you chose a path in your life in which you ended up killing civilians. How damn sad for you. Here is one solution for the IDF soldiers who are more likely to die of an earthquake than from the other side, if you feel so fucking sad, pressure your government to end the war. But back to you Peter, it used to be that a a hero was someone who risked his life, not someone who was so afraid to get hurt that didn't mind hundreds in collateral damage. Perhaps you should have been an accountant, don't you think? Wait, you can barely add. So how did you experience war Peter? Do you think you experienced war a little bit different than the hundreds of civilians that died in Afghanistan because it was easier to bomb the entire place than to actually go in an fight one on one against the enemy. So, you have done horrible horrible things peter, and it is hard on you, perhaps you should try being a pacifist. Neither you, nor the IDF soldiers, have my sympathies. My sympathies lie with the children who hid in a corner of their houses and died, or were maimed, because that way nothing would happen to you. And, I support our troops, bring them home so those who haven't yet killed innocent civilians can sleep at night.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 10:55 PM EST
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@ Tam sorry you just don't know
what is like to be in a War Zone or even fight in one and every time you say this you are just insulting the people who fight for your freedom so you can say this crap and yes I do know people in the IDF , American, Canadian Military who done this and Yes Tam do have a hard time in their experiences in a War and some did kill civilians( by accident it does happen in war ). Also a few of them did kill themselves over it. Also I will never be a pacifist funny who you people ally with these day's I most-likely fought against or had to deal with them at one point , funny they were not peaceful or were they looking to end war. I severed in Bosnia and in Afghanistan and I have seen what your pacifist friends do( NOT SO PEACEFUL OR DON'T THEY WANT TO END WAR or rather being the mouth pieces of them in the West since the same pacifists supported the people who we were fighting ). Again Tam your just a BITCH, and believe me I think you will never understand what War is. Also you seem to attack anyone who disagrees with you with insults and I think you might have some metal problem. Also the way you act to people who did been in War Zone for example we do know you hate us and don't support us so stop acting cute in that matter because its just bull shit and we know that. FYI I really doubt you want peace on earth since you would most likely be out of the job since you most-likely jump from one cause to another and why do I believe most of them have to deal with a conflict somewhere in the world. Of course you will just insult or attack people who question you and even our Queer brothers and sisters in the military who love our country and are willing to fight or even die for it and protect the freedoms we all enjoy even those who say the crap you ass holes say.
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/25/10 11:49 PM EST
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Tam you're an idiot
First of all to everyone, middle eastern politics do not belong in pride because they have nothing to do with GLBTQ rights in Canada. Unless we're talking about the horrible treatment of GLBTQ people in the middle east (Israel included despite their laws) then maybe there would be a case. Second of all, Tam you are a fool and very unpatriotic if you think that the lives of ''innocent civilians'' aka foreigners should take precedence over the lives and welfare of Canadian Soldiers who are sworn to protect our queer asses and your freedom to be an unpatriotic hippy. Especially when those same so called ''innocent civilians'' have backward savage values like opposing the rights of women to be equal and have control over their bodies. And opposing the rights of GLBTQ to be equal. These ''innocent civilians'' would kill the likes of you and me for being GLBTQ. So maybe you should get your head out of your ass and think about the people and culture that you're supporting? Don't get me wrong, Israel is in many ways just as bad despite their laws but what is offensive is that you and others like you in the QuAIA would support a group of people like the Palestinians that hate and kill queers like us. And to reiterate I don't support Israel either because in many ways their culture is just as bad.
Some gay guy, Borden Ontario
06/26/10 12:06 AM EST
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Peter
How exactly did you fight for my freedom? Last I heard no one has attacked Canada since I don't knwo when. Wasn't the US the last country to attack us? Let me ask you Peter, why did you go to Bosnia? Why did you go to Afghanistan? I'd like seperate answers please. You see, I am not completely against fighting in a war, but I think one has to do it because they are well informed and following their morals. I also believe that a Canadian soldier in Afghanistan is like a Robocob against the guerrillas. Don't you? I mean, you are armed to the teeth and if there is any chance of a guerrilla in a house, you just throw a bomb... or am I wrong? Heroes, in the past, were the kind of people who didn't show up to a duel with a machine gun. Heroes were the kind of people who would risk their lives to save the child that might be in the house. I don't think that the military of Canada or Israel does either of these things. I also don't know how you feel about this, so please enlighten me. The US gives weapons to the Taliban, they then get attacked with those weapons and then you go fight them. Does it even bother you that this all happened because the US did this? And, at the end Peter, did you join the military because we were being attacked, or did you join it for a job, and if you joined it for a job, does that not mean that you went to war for the money, and if you went to war for the money, how are you different than a mercenary? I am ok with having a military as long as they are used as peacekeepers. For example, if we positioned you guys in the green line in Israel-Palestine. Make sure they aren't killing each other. Some wars need to be fought, but I would never just go to war because I was ordered to go. So, as you see Peter, I am no fan of the military, I have never been. Nothing personal, long ago, I realized that there was something wrong with people who want to live their lives with a gun strapped to themselves.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 12:09 AM EST
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Some gay guy
Luckly, being called an idiot doesn't have an effect on me sweetie. I know I am. I will slowly explain why. I defend palestinians because they are people who don't deserve to be killed just because they are palestinians. That aside, and this is where your argument is just really dumb, approximately 10% of the population of palestine are gay and lesbians. By my calculations, Israel killed 1,400*0.10= 140 gay people in operation Cast Led in Gaza. That means that Israel killed more gay people in palestine than palestinians killed anywhere. Do you see how stupid you are? How you make no sense whatsoever? If you only care about gay people, think about that.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 12:14 AM EST
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Some gay guy... I'd like you
People keep on saying that Hamas kills homosexuals. Could you please find a case from a reputable international organization that says they do? I did a little search, some gay guy, and you wouldn't believe it, but not testimonies from witnesses, nothing. I do remember the palestinian gay group saying that while there was discrimination, there was no policy of persecution in either Gaza or the West Bank, so where did you get your information? Could you please tell us of a homosexual who has been killed by either government in Gaza or the West Bank? I'd like a name please. Otherwise, you will understand if I belive the palestian gay organization and not you.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 12:27 AM EST
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Tam I really doubt that you are not even a expert
in anything, but maybe just propaganda and the reason I did go because I do love my country( something you most-likely hate as most Pacifists do) and that is why I served in the Canadian Military and I thinking about going back because I love my country and guess what Tam so to the many Queer people in Canada do, I do know many who do serve in the military and in Canada we are allowed to serve openly and goes with most NATO countries .FYI Canada and the United States are allies so what planet are you living on is beyond me and as for your statistics, I really doubt this, funny how you can even prove that there are openly Gay Members of Hamas and again you are just most-likely a expert in lying and propaganda as most Pacifists usually are. Not all things and Yes most likely another Useful Idiot as most Pacifists are also. Its seems all you say is nothing but hot hateful air.
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/26/10 1:05 AM EST
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@ Tam a so called expert why do they operate
in Israel? Why does that Palestinian Gay Organization have to operate inside Israel? I Know what you are talking about but Why can't they operate inside Gaza or the West Bank if Hamas and the PLO or so Gay Friendly, So why do they operate in Israel? and why according to a Xrta report on Tel Aviv Pride said that that Palestinian Party at Pride in Tel Aviv took place in Tel Aviv and not in Gaza City, or Ramallah? It's not hard to put two and two together if even for a super genius yourself could most likely get this. So why do they have to operate in Israel?
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/26/10 1:16 AM EST
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my thoughts of the military
I love my country, I love toronto, I love that it is multicultural and I don't believe in a bunch of people throwing missiles as heroes in either side. Why don't you meet them one on one, no weapons... you can both have a stick, if you win, then you can be a heroe. You are brainwashed and hardly capable of fighting it. You think, stupidly, that keeping chocolates from the Gazan is war? That keeping shoes from children is war? Israel is not at war, operation cast led was a massacre, not war. In any case, it was a situation, like Lebanon, that Israel started. Both Hamas and Hezbollah kept on asking not to be attacked and wanted a ceasefire that Israel rejected over and over again. And, while I don't like the likes of you, who live of conflict, I still think that the Canadian military is better than that. When was the last time that the Canadian military kept oxygen tanks from reaching hospitals (Israel just did that). No Peter, you are not heroe, and you did not fight for my rights... they told you that, but it isn't true.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 7:19 AM EST
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experts
Because I am a good researcher I noticed that while they do operate in Israel but hold and advertise through their internet the location of their meetings in the west bank. I guess there aren't lynch mobs just waiting for them there eh? I might not be an expert, but I think the palestinian group is. Don't you? And, considering that 100 years ago you would be lynched here, that the 20th century was bad enough with gays and lesbians getting killed left right an centre in North America and that even in the early 1990s the nice folk in this country met us outside bars to throw eggs at us, what should we have done Peter, bomb them and their neighbours? You see how stupid you are? I trust that the gay communities who managed to make Spain, one of the most conservative countries before the 1980s, into a haven for homosexuality will make inroads in muslim countries once the wars are over and radicalism, which is fueled by the likes of you throwing bombs left and centre, dies down and becomes marginalized. Lebanon has another gay group.. they have a website, they haven't been acknowledged but that happens to other groups the government doesn't like, but according to the law, however, they are a legal group and no one has come over to kill them, imagine that. I trust them... I am not going to to trust some idiot who thinks the response to homophobia would be to bomb muslim countries with all the gays inside. That would be stupid Peter, but I guess you can't quite tell the difference.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 7:27 AM EST
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Try to make sense, Tam
"Because I'm such a good researcher" Maybe you should find out the PA is monitoring the internet for Gay activities. Thet probably are not. You don't have much to say about Gays in Gaza, Tam. You comment was largely incoherent, but it seems to say that life for Gays in these cultures where they are persecuted will improve once war ceases. Like in Egypt or Iran, where they aren't at war and homosexuality is still a crime? And you, like Libby Davies, have formed a hatred of Israel without having much actual knowledge of the historical events and causes of the conflict. Tam, if you're stupid enough to think that one side is responsible for all the violence and harm there, and if you are so hateful that you think that the Palestinaians should be able to bomb Israel and they should not be allowed to defend themselves, you should confine your research to an area your limited intellectual abilities can comprehend. Obviously the reason you're "such a good researcher" and not a writer is that you can assemble data but don't have the brains to analyze their meaning.
Jimmy Boy, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 12:36 PM EST
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Jimmy
I am no supporter of Egypt, or Iran... my government doesn't support Egypt or Iran. We can all agree that the Iranian government should go. The big different Jimmy is that my government, and our friend south does support Israel. That the pro-Israel bunch have been tellingus for years they are just like us, and they aren't. That they put posters up saying "canada and israel together as one". The big difference is that Israel has for years made us complicit in its abuses. I do have a lot to say. Speaking of incoherent. You say the PA is monitoring the internet. (1) We all know that the Israeli governmetn and the pro-Israel bunch do. They created a megaphone (is that what it ended up beign called) so that all the nice little supporters can have something to say any time something bad is said about Israel. Then the Israeli government hired them professional researchers to make sure they don't miss anything. China? the PA? No, Israel and its supporters. It would seem impossible that any country would be so committed to control information except it was published in time or newsweek andthey interviewed Israeli government officials and they admitted it. (2) If the PA is monitoring the internet for gay activities, how come the palestinian group still advertises where they are meeting. You see the fluff you send could very well come with a link, from a relatively credible source. I am still waiting, Jimmy boy for a the case of gay person in either Gaza or Westbank that was executed for being gay. I don't dispute that people are in the closet, as we were no too long ago, that poltiicians blab and blab homophobic things, I want people to show me something that proves the mass perspecution of homosexuals, the killing of homosexuals. If you can't, then you are just inciting hatred of them and inflaming a situation that we all want to have resolved. Yes Jimmy Boy, I do my research.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 2:15 PM EST
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@Jimmy Boy, Toronto Ontario @ tam
0could not have said it better I think Tam is going on a rant because she can't answer the Question I'm kind of wonder who see really is and yes Tam you are not just a bitch but also a lot like Libby Davis and yeah don't care if she is queer or has done good so did Hitler she is just nuts like a lot of you Pacifists, and funny I deal with all the time and they don't want a end to war or peace on earth and Tam are you also in bed with so called 9/11 truthers too? Libby Davis is. Also Tam real intellectuals never use the Internet FYI
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/26/10 2:48 PM EST
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Yes Peter
Yes peter, those damn pacifists... they'd put you out of a job eh? What question actually? Here, enjoy... these aren't pacifists.. good for B'tselem... love these people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHhECvN2kQI&feature=related But they keep you non-pacifist working.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 2:53 PM EST
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@Tam just a a rant I wonder who it could really be
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH you are in a rant like Libby Davis and most pacifists do when they go on a rant when they know they have no point or how this subject has little to do with Gay Rights in Canada, the one I have defend against your fellow Jihadist. Tam if you have anything relevant to say then say it and again your not a intellectuals if you use the internet as your research based and tell me this I bet this was staged like many they do for the camera we find this a lot in the field too but of course you are a pacifist, then I bet you already know this so BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH you are on a rant and real intellectuals never use the Internet, I wonder how edited that video might be for example. Lights, Camera, Action, then off to the editing studio to make it look real to advance our agenda
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/26/10 3:40 PM EST
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Tam there is help, and hope for you
Tam, I promised you I would pay for both therapy you are sadly in need of. But, it will only work with some anti psychotic medication for your extreme delusions, and your racist attitude towards Israel, Israelis, and Jewish people in support of Israels existence. I feel sad for your inability to separate fiction from reality, but not to worry, there are People everywhere that want to support you your need for psychiatric treatment. If someone in our subways were screaming the same delusions you are, the police would ship in out to the closest hospital, in fear he is a danger to himself or others. My friend, you are well on your way.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/26/10 4:24 PM EST
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the truth must hurt eh Jamie?
Those videos show Israelis at work trying to cleanse palestinians of their land. Jamie, as I said, for all I know, moses led my ancestors to that land... and since you can't prove otherwise... get off my land. I give it to the palestinians. You need to therapy and rehabilitation so that you can stop your racist and hateful tendencies. Israel will have peace when it stops having supporters like you... you aren't any different than a muslim extremist... you are just the same thing. Yes Jamie, it is insane, it makes a lunatic, to say that the land was stolen from you 2000 years ago. A bit of an idiot too. And, Peter, we both know you make your money off wars... and you know, maybe you didn't throw the granade that killed that child, but you were part of the machine that did it.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 1:30 AM EST
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let's bring knowledge and respect to conversation
Al-Qaws, one of the two major Palestinian queer organizations, is based in East Jerusalem. That is part of the West Bank, Xtra reported that fact incorrectly. Most of Xtra's coverage of the local community issue has been good, but when it comes to reporting about "facts on the ground" in Israel and the occupied territories, it is something new for them and I think they tend to follow Israel's line/POV out of an abundance of caution. East Jerusalem was illegally annexed after the 67 war, even the U.S. does not recognize it as part of Israel. And for all of you trashing Tam because "Muslims kill queers" I would like to know... how many of you actually know a queer Muslim or Arab or Palestinian? I bet the answer to that is zero. How many of you know that there is an underground queer scene in Ramallah in the West Bank? How many of you know there is a similar scene in Damascus? Even Amman has something small, though it is still growing. There is a nascent queer scene in the Arab world, believe it or not... instead of constantly trashing it and dismissing it, we need to learn something about it first. And how about offering something more productive to the conversation than "BLAH BLAH" or whatever... what is with the name calling??? You guys sticking up for Israel claim to be so progressive, but you are using words like "Bi---" etc with women you disagree with. Please be respectful.
Sav., Toronto ON
06/27/10 11:14 AM EST
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Spin Cycle
@Sav You talk about the fact that East Jerusalem is part of the west bank and occupied by Isreal. Of course you avoid the main point, that gay groups are allowed to exist and not have to be "underground" like the "arab world" you cite. And what relevance is it the one does not know a queer Palestinian? How does that invalidate the arguement that the arab world has an antipathy to queers in general?
pjr, London on
06/27/10 12:25 PM EST
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indeed
It's not that long ago that queer groups were forced underground even in Canada, the U.S., Europe... and even more recently in the case of Israel. Israel only de-criminalized homosexuality in 1988. If it was 1987 still would you be pro-Palestinian? The point is that the queer movement is still evolving world-wide... and Arab queers are making progress. There is Helem in Lebanon if you want an example of an openly queer organization in an Arab nation. But why dismiss them and deride them and imply that they will never be able to obtain their freedom? I would rather encourage queers in the Arab world by sending them my message of support. It's so cynical of you guys to use their plight as a way to gloss over Israel's human rights abuses. Even if Palestinians treated queers as badly as you guys claim they do (they don't and I emphasize you DO NOT KNOW a single Palestinian queer) it would never do anything to justify Israel's occupation or the siege on Gaza or attacking a humanitarian convoy on international waters.
Sav., Toronto ON
06/27/10 1:16 PM EST
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indeed
What I mean when I say you don't know any actual queer Palestinians, my point is emblematic... that is to say that all your information about their lives and their struggle is coming from Israel. Israel has it's own interests that have no relation to the struggles of queers in the Arab world. If you want to learn something about their situation, at some point you have to actually consider what they have to say in their own voices, not just what Israel's supporters say when defending Israeli state policy.
Sav., Toronto ON
06/27/10 1:26 PM EST
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Sav and Tam
sav and Tam, The atrocities towards gay people in the middle east are simply frightening. All over you tube you can find, actually coverage of executions done in barbaric ways by the authorities and the families of LGBT people all through the middles East. I just looked, and am sick over this. Continue to attack Israel this Pride over the land and terrorist activity against their citizens, rather then a real Pride issue the torture, oppression and murders happening to LGBT people in the middle East. This is Pride. Families that feel no shame for having their chilren and relatives tortured and murdered for being LGBT. While Israel takes a tough stand against the terrorist activity that goes on towards their citizens, it is nothing compared to watching the atrocities the arab nations are commiting towards their own. This is simply not a secondary issue, but rather they same hate they feel towards their own, is the same wish for deaths to Jewish Israelis as well. Comes from the same place internally within. I just watched these tragic stories all over the internet. That is the Real issue Queers against the murder and torture of LGBT people throughout the arab league of nations.
Hannah, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 1:36 PM EST
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@Hannah
One of the arguments US anti-abolitionists used was: "Africans live miserably in Africa. We are treating them humanly as slaves; besides some were sold by their own people". Do you not recognize a fault with this line of thinking? Do you even consider Palestinians human?
JG, Toronto ON
06/27/10 2:08 PM EST
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Hannah
Hannah, there are plenty of videos on youtube of Israeli settlers attacking Palestinian settlers. I was in the West Bank, I saw how they treated Palestinians... not very pretty. But this argument is somehow turning very emotional, which is not good for anyone. Can I offer to you to come out to the following QuAIA event, to hear a queer Palestinian speak for herself? Would you be willing to listen to the voice of an actual queer woman from Palestine, instead of always trying to speak in their place? http://www.xtra.ca/blog/national/post/2010/06/27/Sex-InterNational-Take-2-set-for-Monday.aspx
Sav., Toronto ON
06/27/10 2:11 PM EST
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J.g
J.g, it is a gross accusation to suggest I don't consider Palestianians as humans. What I have said, many times that hamas and the extremists in Palestine are hiding amongst innocent civilians as they plan and carrying out terrorists activities , andy chance they get towards the Jewish and Israeli citizens. Well documented as well. Trying to sugget that I don't consider Palestians as human is nothing but a cheap shot, and continued propaganda.
Hannah, Toronto ontario
06/27/10 2:24 PM EST
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Give it up Sav
@Sav You are very good at side stepping the issues with red herrings. How can you equate calling out various arab governments on their homophobic policies to "deriding" underground gay organizations in those countries. What relevance is the fact that gays used to be "underground" in North America and Isreal? They are not anymore in these societies while in the Arab world they are still treated in a fashion the borders on barbaric. Using your logic, Isreal cannot be critisized by Arab countries or any country for that matter, because of past and current historical wrongs. And how do you know that all of "us guys" information comes from "isreal"?? That is patently absurd...I guess Amenesty International is isreali right? And who are you to claim ownership and special insight of "other voices"? Do you have to be of a certain race to have knowledge of and be able to comment on such things. And how are "you guys"....are you assuming that all of your critics are jewish?
pjr, London on
06/27/10 2:28 PM EST
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Sav
sav, thank you for the invitation. i have listen to our one queer palestinian girl in Toronto at the community meeting. It would be far more productive to have a panel discussion including Jewish and Israelis who have also been victims of persecution in that region, by many Palestinians as well, and they can talk about what All of them have experienced, and how to move the peace talks forward in that region. Why don't we invite Gilad Shalit's mother to take part in a panel discussion.
Hannah, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 2:37 PM EST
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@Hannah
I ma not suggesting anything. You wrote "This is simply not a secondary issue, but rather they same hate they feel towards their own, is the same wish for deaths to Jewish Israelis as well. Comes from the same place internally within." To say that Palestinians are inherently hateful is to say they lack human qualities, in my mind, hence my question. It was not a cheap shot nor propaganda, I was just following your logic.
JG, Toronto ON
06/27/10 2:39 PM EST
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what???
"you guys" means people commenting on this thread and critics of quaia... how do you get that "you guys" = "jews" ?????????? Many of Israel's supporters are not Jewish!! (And many of it's critics are Jewish, including many QuAIA members)
Sav., Toronto ON
06/27/10 2:46 PM EST
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jg
jg, It is not helpful for you to quote me out of context. I was saying the same anger that provokes people in that region to arrest, torture and kill their own family members for being LGBT is an atrocity. And, yes I believe the same twisted thinking when they dance in the streets of Plaestine for a succesful suicide bombing, comes from the same place internally , a place of hate and dehumanization of their own Lgbt community, and wishing the Israelis dead. It is a perverted attitude. Nobody ever said All Palestianian hate the Israelis or Jewish people around the world. Similarly Not all Jewish people and Israelis believe All palestinians are terrorists. However, in context, we are talking about the ones that are. Nice bringing forth a balanced view to this debate...but I have a life. Happy Pride.
Hannah, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 2:49 PM EST
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@Hannah
Look Hannah, I want the homophobia and sexism in the middle east, including Israel, to end. I also want Israel to stop attacking palestinians and stop stealing their land. I trust queer arab people, with our support, will eventually (like we all have in the past) make significant inroads in all their countries (like we all have even though judaism and christianism are extremely homophobic in their books and teachings). The difference between you and I is that I recognize that Israel's behaviour towards the palestinians, children and ALL civilians, is not because of Hamas. Such behaviour existend before Hamas even appeared. It is based on de dehumanizing of the arab population and whether you like the name or not, that is racist. The Haredi in Israel don't even want their daughters going to school with non-ashkenazi jewish girls. They also don't like the word racist, 100,000 of them, all male, because sexism is very much in place and so the women stayed home, but they are racist. And, if they feel that way about people who share their religion, imagine how they feel about the palestinians. The conflict itself arose in a settlement outside of Israel's borders. Are you telling me there is no racism and hatred towards palestinians in Israel, because the videos I posted show otherwise. You can't steal land from people every day, beat them, bomb them, and then claim foul when they attack you. When Israel goes back to its 1967 borders it can start to complain about things.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 2:54 PM EST
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@Hannah
Not bringing a balanced view to a debate is called propaganda nevertheless, Happy Pride.
JG, Toronto ON
06/27/10 3:07 PM EST
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re:funding
I hope funding for this parade is going to be (immediately) withdrawn.
Jon, Montreal Qc
06/27/10 3:45 PM EST
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@Joe
You just don't understand Joe. If the City withdraws the funding on the basis of "Israeli Apartheid" contravening their anti-discrimination by laws, someone is going to sue them, the civil liberties association, QuAIA, all of whom have a lot of supporters Jewish and non-Jewish. That means that the phrase Israeli Apartheid will be heard across the country over and over ago all the way to the supreme court. Whatever the courts rule won't matter because it would have forced everyone to reflect on the issue. And, the queer community, as someone else said, can have a parade with or without city permits and funding, we are spontaneous that way, we can have events all over town for Pride, but Pride isn't going to happen without us. So, this is a no-win situation for the pro-Israel side. Some politicians might be courting your side, but there are many moral politicians out there who, even if silent, if they have an inch of morality, are tired of people who support Israel trying to trample over our rights and freedoms as citizens.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 4:01 PM EST
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re:worth it
Ha, first of all; it would be worth it. No judge on earth would force the parade to include this group. Secondly, the only folks that should be reticent of having light shone upon it is the QuAIA group itself. And finally, the deomonization of Israel should be talked about (a lot), not least because a group with such a negative and divisive (not to mention hateful) "raison d'etre" has no business forcing itself on a celebration of the Gay community. For these reasons, it is actually imperative that funding for this parade be (immediately) withdrawn.
Jon, Montreal Qc
06/27/10 4:27 PM EST
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Jon... do you even know what the problem is?
No judge on earth would say that the phrase "israeli apartheid" contravenes the city's anti-discrimination by-laws. The issue is not whether it will force it or not, but whether people like you can blackmail the parade to exclude them. And what can I say about your opinion that the only who looks bad is QuAIA. If that was the case, why bother silencing them. If Israel is like the Netherlands and ther is absolutely no apartheid, why waste your energy? Let them be. After all, we all know that Israel doesn't discriminate based on race or religion right? The wall was just made to get some shade on the Israeli side right? Israel doesn't steal land, it just borrows it forever right? You are delusional. The more the phrase "Israeli apartheid" gets around, the more people will see it as true. Only the pro-Israel side has anything to lose. And, that is just fine with me.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 4:57 PM EST
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re: You cannot force public funding of parade
The point is this. You cannot force the public to fund something that includes a group this divisive. You can have this parade; but not with the use of pubic funds. That is all. No doubt in my mind that you will lose if this goes to court. BRING IT ON. No judge on earth would rule in your favor. I hope that funding is cutoff from the parade and I HOPE this goes to court. It would be great to bring this demonization of Israel into the light of day for all to see. Again, I hope there is the courage to take away funding for this parade.
Jon, Montreal Qc
06/27/10 5:43 PM EST
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Divisive
Jon, You live in a bubble, it isn't that divisive. You are a small group of people who oppose it, the rest of us either don't care or oppose you opposing it QuAIA. What you don't get, we are happy to do without the money if we have to.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 6:20 PM EST
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in that case please don't use public funds
Ok we are in agreement. Just please do not use public funds for a parade with this kind of group in it. Btw, it is wishful thinking you have - in calling the people who oppose this group "a small" group of people. So why don't you have the parade with this group that you like so much (Just without public funding). Absolutely no need to go back and forth arguing on this.
Jon, Montreal Qc
06/27/10 6:34 PM EST
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we are not in agreement
We will fight for the funds through to the end... but if we don't get them... that is fine with us. And you are a minority, just a very loud abnoxious one.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 7:08 PM EST
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entitlement
You arent necessarily entitled to public funding unconditionally. And I do not believe that if the public funds are taken away (based on the participation certain groups) that you can force public funding to be given back to you. Your namecalling btw betrays your own hateful ways.
Jon, Montreal Qc
06/27/10 7:17 PM EST
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You are new to this aren't you Jon?
If Mamolotti's passes and the money is called back because of A, the other part can take the city to court and demand them to prove that A actually happened. Then you have all the businesses that will complain over any significant change that will change their revenues. You also, believe it or not, have politicians that don't agree. This conversation is really useless, what will happen, will happen... whether you like it or not, and whether we like it. Whatever happens, the pro-Israel group is going to see the words "Israeli Apartheid" in the news for months. And, no, you can't force public funding under any circumstances, this is why I am for revoking the charity status of any organization that sends money to the IDF or anywhere in the settlements directly or indirectly. Charity status means you don't pay taxes on that money, that means diverting money from the tax payer. I am, of course, a supporter of cutting the 4 billion dollars the US send in public funds to Israel. I mean you just said it was a divisive issue... ;) So you go on... I suggest you start convincing Israel to negotiate peace with all its neighbours.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 7:30 PM EST
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Shalom Tam your just on a Rant
you can't give a answer you just make something up and you need to get some help and FYI Most Americans can see through you Pacifists anyway. so Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/27/10 7:38 PM EST
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tam
tam, you make me laugh endlessly. You just said "I suggest Israel negotiate peace with it's neighbors. let me explain, go get a map and look at the little sliver of land called Israel, now tam look at the Arab league of nations surrounding Israel from all sides. Who's threatening who? Once Terrorist activities stop from people in all the neighboring countries againgt israel and the Jewish population, Israel will lighten up on the force. Toronto is a good example this weekend what excessive force looks like when some violent protesters hide in the midst of peaceful protesters tear gas will hit everyone, even if you didn't set the police car on fire. many so called peaceful protesters condoned the violence. IDF is protecting Israel from the violent attacks seen on a continuous basis. By a few? Tam, keep posting I have never laughed so hard at you desparation to advance a cause that is skewed. I would be happy to meet you, and protest the atrocities that the muslim nations have done to the LGBT community over there.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 8:04 PM EST
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Jamie Jamie
You mean you have no idea of what a just peace would look like? Because the Arab league has one. They are willing to normalize all relations, they are willing to find alternatives to the refugee problem. I asked you this question because I have noticed that the pro-israel bunch do not want peace. Egypt and Jordan have kept their promise of peace. So it isn't an arab problem, maybe it is an Israel problem. You don't have an idea of what peace is because you are a warmonger. I didn't actually expect you to come up with anything reasonable. There were two answer, you, like Anita before, would not answer the question, or you would come up with a solution that would include throwing the palestinians into the sea. It just says a lot about you and your side.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 8:21 PM EST
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tam I cant stop laughing
This was one of your best hysterical, statements. Im laughing so hard i'm crying. tam, now I know forsure you have no clue what you are talking about. Everyone of the neighboring arab nations complain about the refugee problem for decades and refuse them enterance in their lands. They don't help them, at all. Their brothers, your a really gem for the other side I tell you.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 8:29 PM EST
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tam what ? haha
Tam, Eygpt and Jordan have made peace with Israel by controlling the terrorist factions against Israel. So, they made peace. I loved King Hussein, he was a wise man. Now, your suggestion about me wanting to see palestianins thrown in the sea. I told you tam, a little medication will help you stop making things up. Why would I want to see them leave their land? as long as they control their hatred towards Israeli Jews and stop actively wishing them dead, they keep Idf busy sadly. My theory is that they are used as a pawn by their other brothers and sisters in surrounding arab nations to make Israel look unjust, when they are just trying to stop suicider bombers. Now, I would very much like to see Palestinians drop the rocks they are teaching there children to throw, and start tilling the land and making Palestine thrive. I will send money for them to plant trees there honestly. making you can go and help them, dont forget to be openly gay and angry as you are here. Well, I am off to protest Queers against islamic terrorism. Happy Pride, tam.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 8:46 PM EST
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Here Jamie
You still haven't responded Jamie, what would be a just peace. Say everyone could stop aggression, including Israel, the most aggressive country in the region, what would be a just peace? You still haven't answered. I'll tell you why. You know that anything but the 1967 borders is unacceptable for the international community, but Israel doesn't want to return to the 1967 borders. You know Jamie, it does matter, hudnreds of people will march with QuAIA, some city politicians will make a fuss, it will go to court if it has to, "israeli apartheid" will become a household phrase. Have you noticed that after years of being quiet, enough people are on board that we can and we will make the world realize what Israel does? Never before, but this is very promising. I am delighted. You have no idea how happy our community is, how proud it is of itself. You can cry all you want. You lost. And, worse is coming unless Israel starts to act like a reasonable country. Ciao... Jamie, I am tired of entertaining your anger over having lost. ta ta
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/27/10 10:24 PM EST
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Well Well I wonder was that Tam(Tam I bet
but I hope you also know that it is just those Anti- Establishment people who say this, they did the same with the United States during the Bush years so mystery writer you also wanted to bring down America right. What a lot of hot air and trash you people write. I guess you found out that the hard way and Israel does act like another country, since they would do the same.
Peter from, Toronto ON
06/27/10 10:35 PM EST
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tam
tam, just peace would be neighboring Countries being able to live sisde by side in peace with no threats of terrorism. the issues aren't as simple as Just peace when both Israel and palestine have lost loved ones on Both sides. In a war there are always many sides to the issue. I understand you have trouble seeing this. As for Quaia being a household name so was Ernest Zundel, and other supremacist group that claimed jewish people run the media, and the Ills of the world is due to israelis. Now with all the publicity Quaia is gernerating for us, I thank them. If there is any complacency in our Community, they will wake up and be vigilant. I thank you for the publicity. While Quaia may recruit many to their side in the process, many will listen to the Jewish perspective to how the accusations promote stigamatization and encourage hate,towards a people who have known hate, world wide their whole lifes. We will see Quaia grow, but anyone of any faith who love Israel, believe it has a right to defend itself against terror,will secure their position. This isn't about who will like us or you and quaia more as your posting suggests. This is about Quaia giving the Jewish state,and its neccesary actions.Quaia for your generous media support so Israel can also continue to put forth their perspective.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/28/10 8:48 AM EST
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question
So how do you critics of QuAIA and self-professed "champions of queer rights" feel about the fact that the former co-president and present sitting board member on the Canadian Jewish Congress is an open homophobe: http://bit.ly/cV8RJN It's easy for you guys to condemn homophobia in Palestine, while doing absolutely nothing to change it (QuAIA however has visiting this week one of the champions of the Palestinian queer community... I invite you to come see her speak). Now I want to know if you are capable of condemning the homophobia in your own backyard?
Sav., Toronto ON
06/28/10 10:10 AM EST
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@ sav that was too funny
Really Wikipedia? did you just edit the page to make it look so? How low can you go on sources.
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/28/10 10:22 AM EST
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sav
sav , homophobia is not the issue. jewish people with different perspectives on homosexuality, do not condemn their family, and their friends for choosing a different lifestyle. Unlike the muslim cultures with the support from sharia law to arrest and excute. You are talking apple and oranges. jewish congress as well as other pro Israel groups, are speaking against an ideology that Quaia puts forth, that has under tones of anti semetic rhetoric. Even if you don't believe the Term "Israeli apartheid" is anti semetic in and of itself, no one who is rational would not conclude if you attack the citizens of Israel for voting in their democratic goverment, you indeed are calling them murders carrying out genocide. I have heard Quaia speakers use language like this and it promotes hate. World wide Israel is known as the Jewish state. Like it or not, politically by the united nations this is how Israel is respectively referred too. If you point a finger using hateful language regarding Israel, you are in essence marginalizing jewish people. Sav, or Tam, Tand and or Sav, make yourselves useful, and draw up banners protesting Palestinian terror against Israelis.
Jamie, Toronto ontario
06/28/10 10:51 AM EST
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hate?? maybe from the JDL
I see... so you don't necessarily care about queer rights or respect for queers like myself... when you point to homophobia in the Muslim world, you are just trying to generalize and attack a group of people you don't like, to say that all Muslims are backwards, evil and should be condemned. Then you accuse QuAIA of hate... well I keep hearing this accusation "QuAIA is hateful, QuAIA uses hate speech" Please, find one instance... from the QuAIA website, from a QuAIA speech or video (there is a ton of this stuff on the web) to call it hate speech. I see plenty of hate and homophobia and transphobia among those who are attacking QuAIA. According to Blazingcatfur the Jewish Defense League-- who have committed assassinations and are recognized as a terror group by the FBI-- will be attending the Pride Parade to confront QuAIA, whom they label "Hamasphrodite" and other such slurs. You claim that criticism of Israel is equivalent to hatred against the Jewish people... so Israel apparently is beyond reproach, beyond question. For one thing, this ignores the fact that many of Israel's strongest critics are Jewish. Kulanu is called the "only Jewish LGBT" group.... yet I know Jewish LGBT groups exist other than Kulanu... they are ignored merely because the criticize Israel. Why does your side constantly ignore the voices of Jewish people you disagree with?? Again you have no instance of "QuAIA hate speech" to point to... just a dumb propaganda video by Martin Gladstone that implies that if QuAIA marches in Pride then the Nazis will return and we will have a second Shoah. Personally I find that a bit insane. Please... reality is calling... it wants you back.
Sav., Toronto ON
06/28/10 11:50 AM EST
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@ Sav
You do know that most Jewish Organizations don't even like the actions of the JDL either, even the ADL does not like their actions, but there is a difference between the JDL and B'nai Brith but since both are Jewish I think you fail to see the difference. Also FYI: the FBI has no authority in Canada, they are a American Law enforcement organization, funny they also called the ANC was a terrorist organization in the USA( you people use this one alot), but it was never in Canada for example.
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/28/10 12:06 PM EST
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@ Sav
this might shock you ( http://www.adl.org/PresRele/Teror_92/4016_72.htm). For example and another shocker the ADL was founded by B'nai B'rith(http://www.adl.org/about.asp) but you seem to be confusing the two organizations
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/28/10 12:13 PM EST
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sav
Sav, so there are some Jews that support quaia, and there are some lgbt groups that dont support quaia. So what? all you have proven is that their are a variety of opinions. I dont see how quaia supporters feel more celebrated because a few jews are political in a different way. Your comparison is ridiculous. You are trying to suggest because someone is a queer immigrant their life story must hold more weight. It is not a fully informed perspective of many different life stories. pro israeli organization that include the christian community who you attack for being homophobic? All they are saying is they support israel. Calling people homophobic because they believe Israel and American have the right to defend themselves from attacks. These are different political views, but quaia followers take low blows changing the topic when they dont have much of a political stand. I am Queer Jewish and Transgendered and am not part of any group, but as a Jew, I stand against any political view that singles Jewish people out as criminals.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/28/10 12:20 PM EST
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the difference
The difference is that unlike the ANC, which was included in the list for political reasons, the JDL has actually committed acts of violence, including bombings and assassinations in the U.S. and Canada. I agree that B'nai Brith is not the same as JDL, that is not my implication. My point is that the Israel lobby and Gladstone have created an atmosphere of fear of QuAIA as some rabid anti-semitic violent organization, rather than a bunch of peaceful protesters with homemade signs (what they really are). When the JDL acts, they are acting within that atmosphere of fear and hatred that your side has created. Last year there were a few minor acts of violence committed against QuAIA members by Israel supporters (a bottle was thrown into the the QuAIA contingent and a woman's camera was smashed by an American tourist). QuAIA did not retaliate to any of these acts of violence. QuAIA does not incite violence and has no interest in it. It is not consistent with our politics. Will B'nai Brith condemn the JDL's presence at Pride? Does anyone expect that the JDL will abide by the city's anti-discrimination policy??
Sav., Toronto ON
06/28/10 12:26 PM EST
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sav
Who is talking about the JDL? If the JDL was a group of militants that did not want to passively sit back as Jewish cemetaries here in Toronto are vandalized on a regular basis, as well as synagogues and the Jewish community centre which is a community centre for all races in our city. Jdl stands against the milatants such as alqueda, hamas, jihad extremist that have factions in Toronto that defend hate crimes against Jews and Israel. That being said, I am in no way supporting illegal action of any means. I am saying to single out one little group is no where close to the anti Israeli, and Jewish language that is used by quaia participants and their allies in our city. It is a stupid debate, when you keep on taking the focus off the language that suggests stigmatizing another another nation, race and even your use of trying to drag Kulanu a positive queer lgbt social group that welcomes all. Kulanu is a Hebrew word meaning "All of us". Sav, stop your propaganda and unite with the Jewish community, particularly queer Jews that ont support your political Jews. Come join us for a bagel.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
06/28/10 12:42 PM EST
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@ Sav
of course your not seeing the point, Yes in Canada they are not considered maybe they haven't done anything yet such as bombings or assassinations in Canada? Your confusing American Polices with Canadian Policies(they are different countries) and the ANC in the US was declared because they did target American interests in South Africa since they did support South Africa in fighting in a few of their wars they had and yes a element of the ANC did use violence. Funny you might want to send off a email to the ADL and ask them about it they might oddly agree with you but they might not even care. Also saying people who disagree with the QuAIA or anyone does not mean we are the Israel Lobby,that kind of like screaming witch. I find it most interesting that you people act like its 1692 in Salem, Mass.
Peter From, Toronto ON
06/28/10 12:45 PM EST
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