Pride Toronto should embrace free expression, even if it means less cash
NEEDFUL THINGS
Matt Mills / Toronto / Wednesday, April 21, 2010
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In a Feb 9 letter to Pride Toronto executive director Tracey Sandilands, Ward 27 city councillor Kyle Rae wrote that he "found the intervention of Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) in last year's Pride parade completely out of keeping with the spirit and values of Pride Toronto."

Rae urged the organization's board of directors to "review the parade entrance requirements to ensure that Pride's mission, vision and values are reflected in the contingent's participation."

In other words, hinted Rae, get QuAIA to soften its political messaging. Tell its members to stop using the term "Israeli apartheid" in the parade. If they can't be convinced, prevent them from marching altogether.

A month later, Pride announced its sign-vetting policy.

It was pure folly from the beginning. Pride Toronto agreed to take on the mantle of censor and to establish an ethics committee empowered to weed out unsavoury political views. Sandilands told me the organization was drafting a "freedom of expression policy." It was all so positively Orwellian, as though a series of directives issued in newspeak from the Ministry of Truth.

But as you'd expect, gay and lesbian people saw right through it all and called Pride Toronto on its obvious misstep. And to its credit, on March 23, the organization issued a brief correction setting things right.

Tempest in a teapot, tamed. Time to move on.

But then on April 18, a report in the Toronto Star's online edition quoted Mike Williams, Toronto's general manager of economic development and culture, saying that QuAIA likely violated the city's anti-discrimination policy and that Pride Toronto risked losing city funding next year if it doesn't do something about it this year.

"We have the right to disqualify them from future grants, so we certainly would look at that," Williams told the Star. "Every circumstance is different, so I'm loath to tell somebody flat out, 'If this happens you won't get your money next year.' But it sure would become a very strong possibility."

Pride Toronto received almost one third of its $3 million in revenue in 2009 from various levels of government. A little more than $173,000 came from the City of Toronto (ironically, $5,000 of that in the form of an Access, Equity and Human Rights Grant). More than a third more came from corporate sponsorships. Pride Toronto raised the remainder — $822,668 — itself by collecting donations and participation fees, and by selling beer and advertising.

Pride Toronto has been mainlining government and corporate sponsorship dollars for some time now. And when the dealer wants a favour, it hardly ever seems too much to ask. This is a perfect illustration of the perils of relying on — of believing there is an absolute need for — government grant and corporate sponsorship money for advocacy work. There are almost always strings attached, hoops to jump through and conditions to meet. A little concession here, some creative rationalization there, a little going back on the things you believe; it's all worth it in the end when you weigh all the good you can do with a huge pile of government cash.

But the cost in this case is simply too high. Censoring the opinions of parade participants, no matter what they are, flies in the face of everything the gay liberation movement was built upon.

It's great that gay and lesbian people have the support of government for the cultural and economic contributions we make to Canadian society. We should be grateful for that support. But our political representatives, corporate funders and Pride organizers need to accept that when faced with an ultimatum like this one — to censor and be funded, or to do the right thing but live more frugally — the moral high ground is simply not for sale.

QuAIA members should march in the parade with whatever signage they see fit. Pride Toronto should make clear to its funders that it is grateful for all their financial support but that free expression — whether it be political messaging, nudity or same-sex sexual expression — is a beautiful part of gay culture that simply ought to be embraced.

If funders can't accept that, they should fund something else.



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Reader Comments


 
Finally!
Finally some common sense. Money always comes with strings attached. And there is ntohing wrong with that. If the city (or another funder) has issues with content then they are well within their rights to make the dollars contingent upon compliance. If Pride does not like the terms there is nothing preventing them from saying "thanks but no thanks." This is the way the game gets played all the time. It isn't about freedom of speech; it's about who is in control. And control has a cost, one way or the other.
Michael, Toronto ON
04/21/10 2:32 PM EST
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Yes, principles matter
I've attended Toronto Pride every year since 1989 and the event has always, featured active participation from queer politicos demonstrating on a wide range of issues that are not LGBT-specific, most from various strains of the political left. QuAIA is absolutely in keeping with this tradition. I haven't been in the parade itself for at least a decade, in fact it used to be called a march back in my day. But I think I'm going to put my marching boots on for the first time in many many years because with every single passing day I feel more compelled to stand up in support of QuAIA. We should be fighting to keep the funding too frankly, because there is no legitimate reason to yank it.
Shawn Syms, Toronto ON
04/21/10 3:07 PM EST
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well said
I also agree that we shouldn't be selling off our principles, some of the best times I ever had at Pride were in the earlier days when there was much less money involved in it. It seems to be run like a business these days with an ever increasing need to expand and to develop new showcases and whatnot which is great and all but definitely not worth giving up that which made Pride special in the first place, its political protest nature and standing together against those opposed to us. I've been quite dismayed by the pro-censorship folks going after Pride's sponsors in an effort to force out QuAIA, that's definitely throwing out the baby with the bath water besides being insulting that the community should surrender its values for continued sponsorship. If QuAIA does get banned I'll be using a marker to write their name on one of my tee shirts and attending in protest, as it is I usually never want anything to do with the conflict "over there" but this is now about freedom of expression in Toronto and I fully support the right of QuAIA to march.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/21/10 3:58 PM EST
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support fopr calling it apartheid
I came across this link while looking for evidence of hate from QuAIA and being unable to find it, its from the website for Independent Jewish Voices who note in the article that its fairly common for people in Israel itself to refer to the situation there as apartheid and that south African leaders who have lived through apartheid there found the conditions of the Palestinians to be far worse than what they had to endure under apartheid, check out the article here http://ijvcanada.org/israel/israel-and-apartheid-is-it-a-fair-comparison/
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/21/10 4:18 PM EST
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ca$h
Ya Matt Mills, who needs all that pesky cash anyway?!? Corporate sponsorships, government grants - No Thanks! - we don't want it! So what if Pride becomes less relevent and sparcely attended! As long as every radical under the sun has a secure place to express their two cents, that's all that matters eh? If you don't like my sarcasm, consider how nauseating your editorial was for me to read. Last I checked sexual expression is something gay Canadians fought for, what Pride is all about. NOT expression of views about foreign border disputes and occupations. Matt Mills and other supporters of QuAIA do not speak for most Pride revelers. They just happen to control the message, so that's the way the cookie crumbles. They have no idea how their actions threaten the future of Pride. They don't want us to celebrate diversity, they want us to take sides.
Ryan, Toronto ON
04/21/10 5:10 PM EST
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Pride is about the LGBT Movement
Although I personally agree that the term Israeli Apartheid is both accurate and relevant, I do believe that the term breeds hate towards Israeli and Jewish individuals (whether intentional or not). I wish Pride would focus solely on the LGBT movement rather than diluting its message with political issues that divide our community. Marches for both sides of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict take place throughout the year so there is definitely a forum for these groups to express their views. It's time we start focusing on uniting our community rather than dividing it by allowing extremely contentious international political issues to play a central role in our parade.
Steve, Toronto Ontario
04/21/10 5:29 PM EST
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Right on!
Right on Matt, why should the cisgender hetero-normative world be able to tell us what our parade should like?
Sav, Toronto ON
04/21/10 6:36 PM EST
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Pride is about more...
Steve, Pride has always been a progressive political event, even when smothered with banners and billboards for banks and vodka. And "extremely contentious international political issues," particularly human rights issues (including, for those of us who remember, South African apartheid), have always been part of the parade. Equal rights for blacks in South Africa, including the right to self-governance, may seem like a no-brainer now, but in the late 1970s and early 1980s it was highly controversial. It was not unusual for those protesting against apartheid to be sworn at, spat on and showered with cans and bottles. LGBT protesters in the Pride March were at the forefront of those who persistently cried out for freedom in South Africa, for justice in the murder of Steven Biko and for the release of Nelson Mandela. As Shawn has said, QuAIA is very much in keeping with this tradition. The call for human rights for oppressed people the world over has always been, and must always be, at the core of Pride. Others marched for us even when we would not--or could not--march for ourselves. It is our privilege, and our obligation, to use the rights that we have won to fight for those still in the struggle.
David, Toronto Ontario
04/21/10 6:51 PM EST
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re: Ryan
LGBT groups fighting oppression and supporting liberation movements not directly related to LGBT folks have always been a part of Pride. Some LGBT folks realize that we're all in this together and are willing to fight injustice where ever they find it. The notion that Pride should be only about strictly LGBT themes is very new and unworkable in our current situation since that would mean the end of lots of participants in the parade like all the political groups, the pro-Israel groups, a lot of the sponsors would have to go as well since they have nothing to do with LGBT themes, actually that part I wouldn't mind since these days the parade seems more like a live action commercial than a march like it used to be. You got it completely backwards when you say about QuAIA supporters "They don't want us to celebrate diversity, they want us to take sides." Its the anti-QuAIA which isn't supporting diversity and insisting we take sides by silencing dissent on the issue. No one supporting QuAIA has ever tried to ban the pro-Israeli policy side though it only seems fair that if QuAIA is banned from marching then so should the pro-Israeli policy side. How exactly is banning A group for their political views supportive of diversity anyways? It doesn't make sense.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/21/10 7:02 PM EST
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re: Steve
Steve I would have to disagree with your assertion "the term breeds hate towards Israeli and Jewish individuals (whether intentional or not)" I suppose if someone were anti-Jewish in the first place it might increase their dislike of Jews but I believe the vast majority of people are intelligent enough to distinguish between the actions of a state and the ethnic group that makes up most of that state. I simply can't imagine anyone blaming Jewish folks in Toronto for the actions of the Israeli state, unless of course they were already anti-Jewish and were just looking for another reason to hate, so perhaps its fair to say the term might encourage anti-Jewish bigots to be even more hateful but I can't imagine non-bigots becoming bigots over hearing criticism of Israeli policies. Learning the truth of what's happening in the occupied territories might make some hate the state of Israel and its policies but that's very different than someone hating Jews in general. If the Israel lobby really wants to improve the country's international image the way to do so would be to do what they can to allow the formation of a viable independent Palestinian state and not through trying to silence anyone who's critical of the Policies of Israel. The term apartheid is regularly used by citizens of Israel to describe the situation there anyways, check out the link in one of my above posts for more info on that.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/21/10 7:22 PM EST
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Re: Rich
A few things Rich. Corporate sponsors are the people who PAY for the bloody event, so the LGBT-connection CAN be made. With political parties, they represent views that LGBT Canadians can engage in, so they too can be involved. (Not to mention, they are more relevent to CANADA). QuAIA doesn't pay for anything, they won't take responsibility for the security risk their presence will create, and they don't care about alienating those who work hard to make Pride happen. Also, what "pro Israel policy" groups are you referring to? Just because gay Jews march, and some may wave Israel flags, doesn't mean they support building the wall. You cannot say that supporting Israel is equivalent to supporting apartheid anymore than you can say supporting Palentine means supporting suicide bombings. I personally think Netanyahu is an ass and that the orthodox settlements in Israel are ridiculous. More to the point, Pride is not the appropriate venue to make such claims, by me or anyone. Using Pride as the platform to make such declarations is setting a precedent that will threaten Pride's future. Nobody is going to make the trip into the city if the celebration turns into an 'Us vs. Them' rally. And if you don't care about that then it's no skin off your back, but if you owned a business in Toronto you may be less inclined to preach all your anti-establishment talking points.
Ryan, Toronto ON
04/21/10 8:07 PM EST
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Thank You Matt
With staff steering the organization saying no becomes more difficult. The board needs to start understanding the community it represents and then grow some a pair and set policy. [sorry for using this ref to the L half of the community]
Mark Smith former PT Board Member, Toronto Ontario
04/21/10 8:15 PM EST
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understanding the community
Mark I had difficulty understanding your post, but I agree that Pride needs to start understanding the community it represents. Sadly, I feel they're only listening to one vocal pocket of our community and turning a blind eye to everyone else. The diversity of our community isn't being understood or respected when anyone with an agenda can declare that they are the true voice of all gay people.
Ryan, Toronto ON
04/21/10 8:28 PM EST
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2 points (for now)
(1) Pride is celebration AND protestation. Pride is political. Politics can be fun. And when there's disagreement, we should celebrate that, too -- because that's democracy, and democracy is what makes LGBT rights possible. | (2) LGBT Palestinians do not have equality rights precisely because they do not have democracy. They do not have democracy because of Israeli apartheid. To liberate LGBT Palestinians, we must end Israeli apartheid. Thus, not only is QUEERS Against Israeli Apartheid an LGBT group (because its members are LGBT), but it is also campaigning for LGBT rights in Palestine by campaigning against Israeli apartheid. Apartheid is a queer issue. | JOIN THE FIGHT AGAINST THE ISRAEL LOBBY'S BULLYING & CENSORSHIP CAMPAIGNS: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=111002982271215
Rick, London Ontario
04/21/10 10:25 PM EST
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AMEN! Thank you Matt
Thank you for speaking out for justice and free speech. Some thing are just more important than corporate sponsorship dollars.
jack, new york USA
04/22/10 12:55 AM EST
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@ Rick
What a lie Rick you said:LGBT Palestinians do not have equality rights precisely because they do not have democracy. They do not have democracy because of Israeli apartheid what a lie Rick they don't have Democracy or Rights becasue Palestinians National Authority has anti gay laws that is not Israels problem http://www.ilga.org/statehomophobia/ILGA_State_Sponsored_Homophobia_2009.pdf source: International Lesbian and Gay Association
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
04/22/10 4:30 AM EST
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Sometimes you pay for what you don't pay for ..
Well said--and it needed to be said! We cannot take money if it means compromising our (radical) history and principles. Sometimes you pay for what you don't pay for as Mills says in many little, compromising ways. Pride has become too big, too commercial, to bureaucratic. Pride needs to go back to basics. When we were smaller and less well funded , the parade or "protest march as it was then called (and it is still both a march and a parade), the event was actually more manageable, more fun and even more outrageous & exhiirating. It shouldn't be as it has become just about pushing commercial products & tourism promotion. It is above a celebration and reminder of who we are, how we got here, and where we are going. There is much still to do and a lot of activist work to be done (just for one example, trans rights are not in the Ontario criminal code yet) I agree with all of this very sensible gay liberation editorial 100 % as long as "same sex sexual expression" doesn't mean actual sex in the parade (wld be iilegal & over the top)--all things in the parade/march shld be within the law (or very close) and of course there shld be no racist signs/placards (which of course QuAIA wouldn't be trying to do as some have said (a real red herring) as they are anti some Israeli policies but not against the country of Israel or the Jewish people). A queer group standing up for human rights is always welcomed in our marches and this group has some prominent gay activists and human rights advocates in it--from El Farouk Farah, immig lawyer & last year's parade Grand Marshal to many other well-known, respected gay, human rights activists. The march (toward freedom and equality for all should go on--as it always has in the Gay Pride March--without the banning or censoring of any group.
james Dubro, toronto ontario
04/22/10 7:54 AM EST
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Pleaee re-think your idea
As a graduate Poli-Sci from York, I would ask Gays to rethink allowing this group to march. This is a very decisive issue with no solution. This is akin to Northern Ireland. All we are doing is removing our halo we have worked hard for and allowing a few people we do not know to steal( and remenber the headlines in the Star will be about this issue all summer and after Pride) So be it if that what Gays want - but I bet I cannot find one out one people who care about this.
Bryan Charlebois, Toronto Ontario
04/22/10 9:43 AM EST
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these are people we DO know--well known activists
BRYAN--These are not "people we do not know" It includes immigartion lawyer and last year's elected Grand Marshal of the Pride Toronto parade El Farouk Khaki,gay filmmaker John Greyson, activists Tim Mckaskill and Rick Tefler, gay and Jewish activist Elle Flanders and many more and it's right to march in the Pride parade/march is publicaly supported by everyone from playwright Brad Fraser, Director David Demchuk, filmmaker Josh Levy, and many gay writers and activists like Justin Stashyn) and many more well known LGBT community activists too numerous to name here.
james Dubro, toronto ontario
04/22/10 10:25 AM EST
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Grad Pol-sci
Bryan, I am an out person and so is everyone at QaIA and I and they care about this. You are a Grad Poli-sci student at York... what is your point? If you cannot carry your arguments without talking about your education then perhaps you should sit it down. Who do you think is in this conversation sweetie? And, the likes of Gladstone can put this in the newspapers all through the summer... those who don't care about it will still come out and party... Pride has caused political controversy since it started. Imagine the irony... they push and push to censor Pride and the word censor, ban, etc starts to pop up... which no one likes... QaIA becomes better known... they are certainly the underdog... you see where this is going? Divisive... to me it is plain simple... Israel better start being a true partner for peace and return to its borders.
Zezi, Toronto Ontario
04/22/10 10:57 AM EST
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QaIA
Mark, You say you were a previous Pride Toronto board member. It seems like you obviously don't understand the people you represented. Where you doing anything to stop the many human rights groups that marched with us? How is this different?
zezi, Toronto Ontario
04/22/10 11:04 AM EST
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Well Said.
Well said, thanks Matt.
J Roman, Toronto Ontario
04/22/10 12:13 PM EST
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insane
Policitally Israel is an easy mark for people to latch onto and criticize. I personally find it totally insane to use the South African reference of Apartheid when it comes to Israel. Israel is (and has been) surrounded by tyranical regimes for its history. Anyone who would choose to place the blame and onus of this problem on Israel is perverting the facts. Please do not expect most Canadians to appreciate a Gay Pride Parade that indulges in this kind of activity. And definitely do not expect most Canadians to want their money to go towards such a Parade. If I sound upset about this... You bet I am.
dave, montreal Qc
04/22/10 1:27 PM EST
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@ zezi, Toronto Ontario
First being on the PT Board is not easy and beyond thankless. I challenge anyone to come forward and say they understand this community if they say do it is either delusional or foolish. I support the voice of every group, including the Rhalians [sp] who were muzzled about 8 years ago. And I say this without knowing which human rights groups were you reference as "marching with us". Its is not understanding the community but talking to, listening to and including them in every little way, so that they feel the contribute to the greater and have a place for their voice. By all appearances the current management, board included, have done none of the above. I am all for having groups banned from the Parade if they have less then Gay cred or if they make me or anyone feel uncomfortable or having a solid Gay theme to their contingent. This would mean no more Toronto Tourism, TD Bank, Polar Ice, Can Stage, Trojan [shirtless str8 boys are not a gay theme]......Ferret love? If funding gets cut...we managed fine on less then a million dollar budget, one staff member, 11 stages and 3 days of party before. Maybe all money needs to be cut to take Pride toronto to a higher standard of community support and inclusion. For clarity, in 2006 with my family and friends lead the parade with the silent march carrying placards stating world wide gay abuse facts. I traveled to Israel at my own expense to visit JOH and ask how Pride Toronto could help with their World Pride event, then lead the PT Team to help manage it.
Mark Smith former Board member PT, Toronto ON
04/22/10 5:52 PM EST
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re: insane
dave I used to think that way too, then I started learning more about the situation in Israel and the occupied territories and while its not the same as apartheid was in South Africa it is such a similar policy that the word apartheid describes it well. According to a group of or prominent South Africans who had lived through apartheid in South Africa the Palestinians actually have it much worse than they ever did. Also the word apartheid is regularly used by Jewish Israelis to describe the situation themselves and not just by those sympathetic to the suffering of the Palestinians. I found a website in my journey online trying to find some proof that QuAIA was a hate group which I couldn't find but I came across this website where I found the above info http://ijvcanada.org/israel/israel-and-apartheid-is-it-a-fair-comparison/ check it our for yourself, here's a short quote from a South African who lived through apartheid there "“The apartheid regime viewed the blacks as inferior; I do not think the Israelis see the Palestinians as human beings at all. How can a human brain engineer this total separation, the separate roads, the checkpoints? What we went through was terrible, terrible, terrible – and yet there is no comparison. Here it is more terrible. We also knew that it would end one day; here there is no end in sight. The end of the tunnel is blacker than black." That's from someone who's lived apartheid and knows what it is in his bones and not just as some historical curiosity like it is for the younger crowd today. I've seen more than enough evidence to convince me that the word apartheid is very appropriate, someone may come up with an Israeli specific word that means pretty much the same thing someday but until then its the best word to describe the situation.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/22/10 6:34 PM EST
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re: re: Rich
Ryan if they're against those who are against Israeli policy concerning the Palestinians then logic dictates they are for the Israeli policy concerning the Palestinians, see how that works? I guess there are some who honestly don't think any liberation struggle that isn't only about LGBT folks should be allowed in the Pride march but then I have to ask why haven't they said anything before about any other group that wasn't just about LGBT folks? I think some want to avoid any sort of conflict and since the Israel lobby is more powerful than groups like QuAIA they support banning groups like QuAIA just to avoid a fuss, I can understand that but if everyone felt that way we wouldn't have any LGBT equality rights at all, sometimes doing the right thing means being somewhat uncomfortable and having to deal with conflict and upsetting situations. Change is rarely easy even when its desperately needed. Like, I think it was Netanyehu (I'm sure I spelled that wrong) he basically said if Israel continues to rule the region it currently does then it will either cease to be Jewish or it will won't be democratic. Something to that effect anyways, my point being we can still be supportive of Israel as a country while opposed to its Palestinian policies, by opposing those policies we are hoping for a better future not just for Palestine but for Israel as well. A two state solution is the only way for Israel to remain Jewish and a democracy, its time they got on with it and got it done instead of making it increasing less likely with every new settlement they build. They need international pressure to do the right thing instead of listening to the far right fascists amongst them who have no problem being undemocratic and aren't willing to recognize the right of the Palestinians to exist.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/22/10 6:53 PM EST
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@ QuAIA check out Palestinian Law for yourself
"State-sponsored Homophobia: A world survey of laws prohibiting same sex activity between consenting adults http://www.ilga.org/statehomophobia/ILGA_State_Sponsored_Homophobia_2009.pdf Gaza Strip and the West Bank (Part of Palestinian Authority) Criminal Code Ordinance of 1936 Section 152 Unnatural offences ?(2) Anyone who: (a) commits sexual intercourse with another person against the order of nature, or (b) commits sexual intercourse with an animal, or (c) permits or allows the above mentioned acts is considered to have committed a felony punishable by imprisonment for a term of ten years
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
04/22/10 6:57 PM EST
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@ QuAIA check out Palestinian Law for yourself
So jail time for Gay Sex and you teabags still think that Israel is the problem for Palestinian Gay when Palestinian Law is rather clear on this issue in this case
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
04/22/10 7:01 PM EST
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Full of it
Rich, You are full of it. What you are saying makes hardly any sense at all. It is an insult to the difficulties Black South Africans endured to compare state of war and general situation between Arabs and Israelis in the Middle East. I really do not care what supposed sources you refer to who claim that Israel is "worse than" South Africa. I have actually been to Israel (and the West Bank) for myself. Israel is truly a democracy stuck in a very difficult region. Your claim that Israelis dont see their Arab counterparts as Human is simply a total lie. The vast majority of Israelis that I have met and know personally are LIBERAL to a fault and want a viable solution to a very complex problem. They are surrounded by tyranical moronic governments in the Middle East who exacerbate the situation. That is the real problem. And then there are ignorant comments from people like you who do not serve to shed any real understanding and light on a very difficult region of the world. Heres a clue. If you cannot even spell the name of the PM of Israel; it probably means you should just shut your piehole with regard to the subject period.
Dave, montreal Qc
04/22/10 9:15 PM EST
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irony
One other general comment I would like to make. I find it ironic that a Gay Pride Parade would allow for this kind of group to march. Israel (as anyone knows who has been their)provides full rights for Gays and has its own world class Gay Pride Parade in fact. Israel is in many ways more accepting of Gay lifestyles than many other countries. (Israel was one of the first nations on earth to officially allow for Gays in its military). In the West Bank and Gaza as well as other parts of the Arab world- all too often people who happen to be Gay are in fear of their lives (never mind the fact that their place in society is not recognized legally. Try walking around as a Gay man or woman in the West Bank and Gaza.... I think indeed there should be a protest at the Gay Pride Parade in Toronto. But it might be directed at some of the governments which surround Israel instead!!!????
dave, montreal Qc
04/22/10 9:29 PM EST
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"Enemy of the People"
“There are those who in the name of righteousness manufacture the truth. In order to sustain an illusion of reality, it is necessary for them to ignore contradictory facts. When the majority subscribes to and even repeats these same lies, it does not make the lies factual. Real facts do not require the permission of the majority to be the truth. We diminish ourselves if we acquiesce to this same misinformed majority and silence our conscience simply to avoid uncomfortable facts and perhaps, the ugly truth.” -- D.L.J. 1972
Henrik Ibsen, Oslo Norway
04/23/10 3:46 AM EST
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re: "enemy of the people"
Yes "Mr Ibsen" - that is exactly why I AM speaking out!!! Manufacturing lies is exactly what those like "Rich from London Ontario" is all too often doing when it comes to Israel. And yes the majority of nations in the world seem to have swallowed (either through ignorance, political expediency and greed -ie oil money). As I mentioned earlier, as this is a Gay Pride Parade - I would love to see a parade on GAY ISSUES> And if you want to bring up some really important issues that impacts Gays (and is a matter of fact) why not focus on the way Gay Men and Women are "treated" in some real problem areas in the middle east (and I aint talking about Israel here)... Why have I never seen a group dedicated to Gay rights marching in a parade protesting how Gays systematically discriminated in places like Iran....(or by surrounding Arab and non arab governments) and for example... Oh how easily I forget (in Iran there are no gays there)!!!! Yes?
Dave, Montreal Qc
04/23/10 11:14 AM EST
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Of lies and more
Dave, It appears you are so sadly brainwashed you can tell the truth from a lie. If Israel doesn't lie, why does it say it wants peace and its government has said they will not accept an impossed peace from the US or the international community? Arbitration sounds like a good idea to me at this point. If Israel wants peace, why does it continue building outside its borders? If Israel is a democratic non-racist state, why does it not recognize some non-jewish villages within Israel proper but is willing to defend at human cost settlers who steal land and openly admit they will drive the palestinians out? If Israel treats all its citizens alike, why does it not like to provide permits for Arab housing construction but is mroe than willing to expand jewish areas? I think someone has told you too many lies too many times. Here is an exercise for you, for just a week, try to think you are a palestinian and then come back and tell me how good Israel is.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
04/23/10 11:27 AM EST
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re: of lies and more
Despite the fact that I think you twist half truths and state outright lies and defame Israel in general- I will just say that The Toronto Gay Pride Parade is not an appropriate venue for this "discussion".
Dave, Montreal Qc
04/23/10 12:43 PM EST
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hmmm
So if the discussion is about your feelings being hurt because the word "Apartheid" is being used, get over it. If people want to see human rights in Israel, more power to them. For too long people have been afraid to criticize Israel for fear of being branded Anti-Semite. Israel if finally being taken to task and if there is nothing wrong there and it's an oasis of human rights, then prove it. I remember the German who were apologists for the Nazi government...now the Israeli and many non-Israeli's are the apologists for the State of Israel. This doesn't make sense to me. Queers are in an important place to work toward change because we made so much progress in the last decades. We fucked up in some areas, but overall, we should celebrate that progress and those politics. All these tired yet powerful whiners that question the inclusion of QuAIA in the march - if they would put more energy into working toward change, this discussion would not be necessary. Pride has become more relevant than ever. And I'm proud of people that stand up to bullies.
loki, toronto on
04/23/10 1:26 PM EST
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My momma's gonna get on Israel's ass
Queers are great at criticism - I would never walk down Church St ill-prepared in my attire - I'd be crucified! (Maybe a bad choice of words for this thread, sorry) Come on, why can't people criticize Israel, Canada, The USofA, Iraq whatever they want...if Israel is surrounded by a shitstorm of terrorism and not-nice people, than maybe the few insignificant changes that they'd have to make to be a paradise could be such an inspiration to the surrounding countries. When I was a child and my mother told me my room was messy. I'd say "Tulia, (my sister)'s room is messy, too!" And I was right, she was a slob. But my mother made it clear that she was talking about my room which was a mess. So Israel, clean up your mess, or I'll send my mother over there and when she finishes with you, she might have the energy for a few more places.
loki, t o
04/23/10 1:36 PM EST
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Great Article too
Matt Very good article. If the funders left, would there still be Pride? Of course. I think Pride is at a very good time because it is evaluating how necessary it is to be so corporate driven. Freedom of Speech is more important than floats and bank reps in green speedos. I applaud Pride in standing up to the bullies...and if the bullies leave, isn't it a better party anyway?
loki, toronto ON
04/23/10 1:42 PM EST
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disruptive, questionable
A Gay Pride Parade is not a place to vent your hatred for a group or a nation. In addition to this; the protest against Israel I believe has ulterior and questionable values bordering on racist(as is apparent with some of the racist and bigoted remarks exhbited by Loki above). With this much controversy - it should behoove the organizers of the Parade to make the right judgment and keep the Parade positive - rather then allowing for this much negativity and controversy to surround it.
dave, Montreal Qc
04/25/10 11:35 AM EST
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disruptive, questionable
A Gay Pride Parade is not a place to vent your hatred for a group or a nation. In addition to this; the protest against Israel I believe has ulterior and questionable values bordering on racist. With this much controversy - it should behoove the organizers of the Parade to make the right judgment and keep the Parade positive - rather then allowing for this much negativity and controversy to surround it.
dave, Montreal Qc
04/25/10 11:54 AM EST
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What?
Okay, Montreal Dave...when you accuse anyone of racism it's always good to explain why you feel you can make that claim. How could criticism of a any country's politics be racist? When I criticized South Africa's Apartheid policies, was I racist? And when I had something to say about George Bush was I racist? Even if I disagree with you, I would still like to hear what you have to say that would indicate that the comments I made were racist. Lot of love Loki.
loki, Toronto ON
04/25/10 12:26 PM EST
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none
No Problem Loki. " would never walk down Church St ill-prepared in my attire - I'd be crucified! (Maybe a bad choice of words for this thread, sorry) " Yes a bad choice of words indeed. The crucifiction and blaming of Jews by so called "Christians" over the past 2 millenia is the main reason for both overt and implicit hatred of Jews and anti-semitism. Your gratiuitous reference indeed is a very bad choice of "words" (though I am certain you had to mention it):-).
dave, Montreal Qc
04/25/10 1:23 PM EST
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not my claim
dave from Montreal, you should re-read my posts, those aren't my claims but those of a prominent South African who lived through apartheid there, he made those statements after seeing the conditions in the occupied territories for himself. Feel free to check out the link I provided too for more info.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/25/10 1:24 PM EST
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and?
Straw man argument Rich, sir. I never said that you personally claimed this. I simply stated that your sources "prominent" or not were wrong. Get it?
dave, Montreal Qc
04/25/10 1:37 PM EST
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the point being...
dave the point is who would know better than someone who lived through apartheid in South Africa if the situation in the occupied territories was apartheid like or not? That is the central issue isn't it, the attacks are all about saying Israel doesn't practice anything like apartheid, well there's someone who knows more about apartheid than folks from other parts of the world and he's saying that not is it apartheid but that its actually worse there than what they experienced in South Africa. Get it? btw you did say it was me who claimed that and I quote "Your claim that Israelis dont see their Arab counterparts as Human is simply a total lie" it might not be what you meant but it is what you wrote. I would love to know why you think you know more about apartheid than someone who suffered under it for most of their life, please do enlighten me.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/25/10 2:05 PM EST
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prominent sources
No Rich. It was actually one of your so called prominent sources who claimed that Israelis "dont regard the Arabs in "Palestine" as Human. Again if your source actually believes such a thing; he is (from my own experience in Israel and West Bank and having talked with many Israelis) truly mistaken. Btw I protested against the (real apartheid regime) in South Africa (and yes I actually had been to Johannesburg in the 70s briefly) and did see what was going on there and I think it is not only wrong but a perversion and an insult to compare the situation between Arab and Israeli to what the Black South Africans endured. Regardless of what your so called "prominent" source says.
Dave, Montreal Qc
04/25/10 2:18 PM EST
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poor dave
yep, the whole discussion is based around a bad joke. I would imagine that most people debating these issues are not big Jesus lovers. Thanks for pointing out you point, but come on, you really think that's where the racism lies? Not around here at least. However, I totally understand that this argument is about funding being pulled from Pride because some very vocal bullies feel threatened by a group that criticizes the state policies of a country they have an allegiance too. Threaten Israel makes them feel threatened. It is a paranoia that is understandable. And as far as the remark...it was funny...Queers have a history of being able to laugh in the face of our oppression...you should learn to as well. But honey...all I want to say is that you should lighten up. Queers Against Israeli Apartheid are going to march, whether funding is pulled or not, Pride will actually be made better by this debate regardless of what happens. The bullies might be heard because they have power, but Pride's origins were from people who didn't have the power coming together and doing what is right. With all this coming down at Pride, I am optimistic its future whatever that is will challenge people who have the power and oppress those that don't. Much love to all and especially to Dave in Montreal.
loki, Toronto ON
04/25/10 2:27 PM EST
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joke
Ah I see "Loki"- you seem to think that Jews should lighten up and laugh at your Crucifiction "joke" - comment. Now you truly are making me laugh. bozo
Dave, Montreal Qc
04/25/10 2:52 PM EST
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brief visit vs lifetime experience
Dave that's some stretch, and rather arrogant, to say your brief visit to South Africa gave you greater insight to apartheid than someone who suffered under apartheid there most of their lives.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/25/10 3:17 PM EST
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bigger stretch
I think it is a bigger stretch for your so called "prominent source" to claim that what the conflict and relationship in the middle east between Arab and Israeli and is worse than what the Black South Africans population endured...
Dave, Montreal Qc
04/25/10 3:24 PM EST
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did you read the article?
Dave did you even read the article? it explains exactly why they hold that point of view. Please explain how much better off then are the Palestinians in the occupied territories. They can't travel on Jewish roads, they can't live where they want to, they face check points when they do try to travel, they're losing land which should be theirs for their future state to constant settlement building, their orchards are destroyed by Jewish settlers, and on it goes. The white South Africans also justified apartheid by their fear the black masses would "throw them into the sea" which is not much different than claiming the settlements are for security purposes and the rest of the propaganda painting Israel's very existence being threatened by the Palestinians. What's most threatening the existence of Israel as a Jewish state is the refusal of the powerful right wing there to accept the two state solution and to get on with it, within the one state solution demographics alone will mean Jewish folks will be a minority ruling over its Palestinian majority, much like it is right now. Its a fiction that the Palestinian areas are a defacto state or that the Palestinian Authority is a real gov't that has any real control over the occupied territories, they're much less a federal style gov't than a municipal style one with Israel proper ruling over them in all things that matter. How is that not apartheid?
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/25/10 4:13 PM EST
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could you please...
let us know if the South African government killed 1,400 black people with guided missiles over 3 weeks ... you know about apartheid in South Africa... I don't. I only know that the Israeli government did that to the Palestinians.
zezi, toronto ontario
04/25/10 4:15 PM EST
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@ Zezi @Rich
What's your point Sudan killed 800,000 people in less then four years and the United States killed 4,000 civilians in Panama in about three weeks at the ending of 1989 and the first three weeks of 1990 so whats your point and Rich tell us about the Muslim only cities and roads in Saudi Arabia for example
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
04/25/10 4:24 PM EST
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simplistic propaganda - re: rich
It is incredibely simplistic propaganda to compare Apartheid South Africa to Israel. TO begin with Israel is doing the best that it can to stop attacks coordinated by the governing body in Gaza. Israel was hounded by the world community to take its soldiers from Gaza. Israel finally relented and now the attacks against Israeli territory and citizens have become an all too daily occurence. Israel had to battle these same thugs deliberately hiding in civilian areas. As a result - despite the Israeli governments best efforts - civilians in Gaza died. In fact - leaving Gaza may have created more problems for Israel. The same goes for the fence (or what you clowns call the "apartheid wall") - after Israel built the wall (not to force people to stay inside Israel rather)to keep the murdering thugs out thousand of lives in Israel were probably saved and the suicide attacs ceased. No I am sorry if your pea brain cannot understand the logic behind that. As far as land issues in the West Bank and Gaza are concerned - this is a complex issue. Much of that land (including the old city of Jerusalem) had a majority Jewish population prior to 1948). When the state of Israel was born it was immediately attacked on all sides. I certainly think Israelis have reason to be concerned that their war is one of survival and I think it is justifiable (despite all the propaganda from small minds like your own) to call it DEFENSIVE. Any other democratic nation within such small confines could scarcely do better. Yes Israel is not perfect (no nation on earth is). But as the region goes - Israel is a democratic oasis compared to it's truly corrupt and violent neighbors (which I never hear a peep out of from such concerned folk like yourself - funny huh.) Beyond getting bogged down in this discussion - as I mentioned before this kind of discussion has nothing to do with Gay Pride or Gay rights or of spreading a positive message of joy or community spirit. It is divisive and
Dave, Montreal Qc
04/25/10 5:04 PM EST
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Please explain yourself Charles
Are you implying that you, and perhaps by extension the pro-Israel group, believe it was justified to kill 4,000 people in Panama and 8,000 people in Sudan? I believe those are atrocities that should have never happened and should not be allowed to continue to happen. Do you? And, if you do? Doesn't that mean that Israel should not have killed people Gaza and Lebanon? If not... if you think the US was right and the Sudanese government justified ... please explain yourself. Do you care nothing for human life?
zezi, toronto ontario
04/25/10 5:16 PM EST
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poor poor dave
no, I didn't say that. You're not listening because you're frozen with paranoia and, as I said above, I totally understand it. Please do not reduce this discussion to your feelings being hurt over a line that you might not have found funny. I feel for you brother. It must be hard to be blinded by such belief in a country that you can't admit to yourself that there are human right violations going on. The wall is real, the identity cards are real, the segregated road system is real, the settlements are real. Do you believe that these things don't exist or are necessary? These are truths and here I'd have to admit they aren't funny and I'd have a hard time believing even you and the other Israel apologists would deny they exist. The sad part about blind belief is it gets more reactionary when faced with the truth. The facts don't lie, but belief systems usually do.
Loki, toronto ON
04/25/10 5:46 PM EST
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justifiable apartheid?
Dave it sounds like you're saying that yes there is apartheid but its justifiable because Palestinians are "murdering thugs"? That's the exact same justification used against blacks in South Africa. There were large numbers of Jews and Muslims and some Christians in the old city of Jerusalem btw. There's been wrong doing on both sides, there's plenty of blame to go around, yet that does nothing to achieve peace and an independent Palestinian state. Israel has all the power and all the control over the situation, they control Gaza and the West Bank, they're the ones occupying a foreign land, of course there's going to be resistance, it'd be utterly stupid to expect an invaded people to accept foreign control of their land, especially when their land starts disappearing from them. I can't think of any invaded country where there wasn't a violent resistance movement ever. Israel with all the control and power needs to be the one stepping up to the plate, they're the only ones who can create an independent Palestinian state short of another massive war with massive loss of lives, the ball is firmly in their court. But your right the real issue is why shouldn't a queer group be allowed to march in the parade just because they're critical of Israeli policy? its been established that they aren't a hate group, nor do they use hate speech, people are opposed to them because they can't tolerate hearing criticism of Israel, that's it. This wouldn't be an issue at all if there hadn't been a smear campaign against QuAIA and efforts made to ban them from the march and then efforts made to get sponsors to stop sponsoring Pride on general because they refused to censor QuAIA. QuAIA isn't the problem, they're entitled to their views as is anyone else, they are a queer group in Toronto and as such should be allowed to march. Its those who refuse to let others voice opinions about Israel they don't personally share that are the problem here not QuAIA.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/25/10 5:57 PM EST
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waste of energy
everyone. Does it make sense to even pursue this debate when blind faith is what you're arguing against. All of these things that I see that Dave and a few other posters oppose are not really grounded in any facts only fear and paranoia. The issue here is whether or not Pride can be dictated to by outside funders and lobbyists who want to reduce the diverse voices in the community..some of them I agree with and some of them don't. It is a issue of censorship and bullying and if the funders withdraw their funds and the people opposed to inclusion stay home...we are looking at a much better Pride whatever that will be. I will not be engaging anyone who is an apologist for Israel anymore. It's like trying to tell a child that Santa doesn't exist. It only breaks the child's heart and eventually the child has to admit that the whole idea of Santa Claus just doesn't work. It's just taking people a little longer to realize that there is no Santa Claus, but sooner or later they will. Unfortunately the Palestinian people will have to suffer longer because of it.
loki, Toronto ON
04/25/10 6:10 PM EST
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agreed
good point loki, I mainly got into it because I wanted to challenge the idea that QuAIA is a hate group that should be banned, something I disagree with strongly, I'm not a member nor do I plan on joining, its pointless debating issues in Israel/Palestine since no agreement will be reached, but I will still defend the right of QuAIA to march but will stick to that only.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/25/10 6:44 PM EST
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my point exactly
If you choose to compare Hamas to the ANC or - that is your perogative and quite frankly your problem. As I had repeated earlier many times -the discussion should really be about whether this debate belongs in a Gay Pride Parade. I don't think this is an appropriate subject matter for a Parade. And I would guess that many if not most people (gay, bi, trans or hetro)agree with me on this.
dave, Montreal Qc
04/25/10 7:13 PM EST
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@zezi, @Rich,@loki,
I was not saying they were justified Zezi but you seem to use same when trying Palestinians and Gaza and thinking somehow they have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada and @ Rich you just sound made up information "murdering thugs"? That's the exact same justification used against blacks in South Africa?? or white people into the sea card too which is a lie. Anyone who studied History of South Africa could easy point out. Apartheid in South Africa had more to do with White Man Burden and the Dutch Reform Church and the concept of saving the Natives form themselves on what the Europeans who settled there thought was not normal and the Rise of Afrikaner nationalism in the 1920s and 1930s but this might explain it better the QuAIA could ever have but I find it rather funny how the Propaganda that comes from this group and the lies and lack of History on Apartheid in South Africa .Article is called The Rise Of Apartheid and even explains the justification. (http://overcomingapartheid.msu.edu/unit.php?id=5&page=1) and judging by the lack of the basic history of Apartheid in South Africa I think Loki says it better is like telling Children Santa Claus does not exist and FYI I'm neither Pro Israel or Pro Palestinian but also shows the QuAIA is more like a hate group everything or even a Gay Rights group and I'm only saying this if you say that somehow you disagree with that Article since it was done by people who studied Apartheid and it does not come off your groups fact sheet and Rich you say that link is inaccurate then I must have exposed the true agenda of the QuAIA then like not having anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada for example
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
04/25/10 7:16 PM EST
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the QuAIA lies
Here is the Rise of Aparthied in South Africa since NO ONE in the QuAIA can't even explain it for some reasons or even the justification (http://overcomingapartheid.msu.edu/index.php)
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
04/25/10 7:20 PM EST
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Proof in the pudding
This discussion, still civil but beginning to border on ugly, has little or nothing to do with the celebration of gay pride. The issues raised here are complex, provocative, and - this is the key point- just do not belong in the pride parade. There are dozens if not hundreds of other worthy human rights issues that could be protested in the parade, but it's not appropriate. Interesting only Israel gets singled out.
Howard, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 10:06 PM EST
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needn't have been
Howard I agree with you to an extent in that these sorts of discussions don't belong in the Pride march, ideally just like last year QuAIA will just be chanting and holding signs proclaiming who they are and what they believe in and those opposed to QuAIA will march in support of Israel's policies. There's no need for the two to get into a debate during the march, they're both there just to represent themselves and what they're about. There was no confrontations last year I don't expect there will be this year either. The ironic thing is the attempts to censor QuAIA have done more to get QuAIA's message out to more people than they ever could have done on their own. If there had been no attempts to censor them I for one would never have heard about them at all since I don't remember them from last year's march. It was my interest in seeing for myself just how bad QuAIA was that I found out the vast majority of what I had read about them were lies and distortions. I resent being lied to, especially in a smear campaign to portray them to the public as something they're not. I'm not a member of QuAIA and never will join up, I'm really not connected to the issue personally but I'll still defend them whenever I hear lies being told about them. I see this whole kerfuffle as an example of how censorship is its own worst enemy and does a lot to create a market for the banned whatever, well at least in this case anyways, even if they do get banned they'll just get even more publicity than they have so far. Seems to me a better way to have silenced them would have been to just ignore them. I do expect things to die down by Pride though, I don't think either side would want to be the ones raining on people's good times, that would be very bad publicity for either side, mind you the pro-censorship side has gone after funding for Pride so I guess you never know.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 11:11 PM EST
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@Rich the Lobbyist
By trying this a one sided debate that's censorship Rich and it is very undemocratic even if you seem to blind by that
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/02/10 11:21 PM EST
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The One Sided debate on this is censorship
Rich people who oppose you is not pro-censorship but trying to make it a one sided debate is censorship but tell us who is the pro-censorship on this debate I think it the people trying to make this debate a one sided issue are the real pro-censorship even if you rather blinded by that is not our problem.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/02/10 11:41 PM EST
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Worthy cause
Israel is being critiqued because what they are doing is exploiting the gay community and promoting itself to the world as a safe haven for queers. In some ways that is true and in some why's it isn't. There are many more countries that are homophobic and have a long list of human rights violations...however they aren't saying "Come spend your tourist dollars here because it's super okay to be gay." Have you heard of the "BRAND ISRAEL" campaign...the purpose is to promote and focus on the the arts, sports and science and hopefully get the world not so focused on the human rights issues that are going on in the Palestine and Israel. So QuAIA's message is to bring attention not only to the human rights abuses, but also point out that the gay community is being used in the campaign to make the country look like a gem in a sea of evil. I support QuAIA and if anyone has the energy to form a group for whatever reason go ahead. Pride does not have rules that it's only a celebration for Joe and Frank from Oshawa and their pleated khaki shorts....god those guys are so boring...but it's history is political and the reason you're able to celebrate (whatever that means) is because politics and political battles have been fought in the past. I seem to hear the following arguments - 1. QuAIA should not be allowed to participate because they are not in the spirit of Pride...by whose standards? 2. QuAIA is calling for the end of the state of Israel...not true and I've yet to see proving otherwise. So unless I hear valid reasons why QuAIA should not be in the parade, I'm afraid you're all just proving that your desire to remove QuAIA is based on a fear that is ungrounded. I invite you to prove otherwise...and when you do, I'll use the same argument to get the Tories out of the Parade..they are so gross...I'd get rid of all the parties.
loki, Toronto ON
05/03/10 12:10 PM EST
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Mr Mills, please go and get stuffed!/ part 1
Mr Mills, you and Xtra are completely out of line in your position toward Pride Toronto and your unremitting and unreasonable hostility against the present management of PT. Please do everyone a big favor and get off their case because your antics do not help this organization in doing its good work. Fyi, the Pride Toronto parade belongs to Pride Toronto, a not-for-profit community organization. No one actually has a fundamental right to participate in the Pride parade and PT has every right to decide who is allowed to participate in that parade and the terms and conditions on which they are allowed to do so. The general policy is that participants should make some positive contribution to the gay community in general. PT has always been very, very liberal in how it applies this policy. However if PT decides to exclude someone from participation in the parade that does not constitute censorship because no one actually has a basic right to participate in that parade. Participation in the parade is a privilege which is granted or withheld at the sole discretion of the owners of the parade, namely PT. QuAIA clearly does not make a positive contribution to the gay community and simply does not belong in this parade. This is a just a tiny group which is trying to parasitize this event to gain publicity for its non-gay political views. The parade depends for its success on the participation of many volunteers and many donors and the attendance of hundreds of thousands of visitors. QuAIA clearly alienates a small but significant group of these supporters.
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
05/11/10 7:15 PM EST
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Mr Mills, please go and get stuffed! part 2
If enough groups like QuAIA were allowed to participate then they would collectively alienate and drive away enough supporters to basically destroy the event completely. This has happened before in Toronto. From about 1967 to 1997 there was a very successful multicultural festival in Toronto called “Metro Caravan” which was originated and staged by the late Leon Kossar. However Mr Kossar never developed an organization to carry on his work with the result that the event gradually lost its focus and visitors stopped visiting and finally the whole thing just fizzled out and died an avoidable death. Exactly the same thing can and will happen to the Pride parade if Pride Toronto does not keep the event focused on the gay community. They are the trustee owners of this event on behalf of the entire gay community in Toronto and they have both the right and duty to enforce this focus. My only problem with how they have been doing that is that they have not shown more resolution in keeping this event focused and in dealing with foolish hecklers like yourself who like to bray incessantly about so-called “censorship” and alleged infringements on a non-existent “right of expression” in this event. The issue of Israeli-Palestinian relations is very old and complex and many, many words have been spoken and written on this subject over a very long period of time. However Xtra itself has never wasted a single square inch of paper on exploring this subject because it is obviously not a specifically gay issue. Likewise Xtra has never given QuAIA a single free square inch of paper to advertise its views on Israeli policies towards the Palestinians because this does not really contribute to its basic mission of making a positive contribution to the gay community. There is no right of expression to anyone to publish their views on any subject in Xtra and you do exert quite firm editorial control to keep Xtra focused on gay
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
05/11/10 7:20 PM EST
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Mr Mills, please go and get stuffed! part 3
Pride Toronto has just as much right to exert “editorial” control over the content of its parade as Xtra has to exert editorial control over the content of its publications. Xtra has certainly always had a very liberal approach to its content nevertheless and Pride Toronto has never been any less liberal in its approach to the content of its parade but there need to be practical limits for them as much as for yourselves. I also especially object to Xtra’s blatant attempts in the past to directly and indirectly vilify Ms Sandilands, the Pride executive director, on the basis that she is some sort of undesirable “outsider” and that Pride should really be entirely run by local people. Ms Sandilands is actually very well qualified to run Pride Toronto because she comes from South Africa where among other things she no doubt has a great deal of experience in dealing with the same type of informal apartheid which prevails here in Toronto and which is exemplified by your own attitudes. Toronto has always been dominated by Anglo-Scottish Calvinist insiders (the so-called “Orangemen”) who enforced and still enforce a kind of informal apartheid system against the immigrants to this city and you obviously belong to this group of insiders with your lordly disdain for outsiders and immigrants. These are very similar to the Dutch Calvinists who very rigidly enforced the more formal apartheid system which prevailed for so long in South Africa. Immigrant energy drives this city but Anglo-Zombies like yourself use your informal apartheid system to force us to work twice as hard for half the pay so that you can work half as hard for twice the pay. There are perhaps 350,000+ members of the LGBT community in Toronto and most of them are from non-Anglo backgrounds but none of this multiculturality and multi-ethnicity is reflected or accommodated in the gay village or even in the pages and offices of Xtra and its related publication
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
05/11/10 7:24 PM EST
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Mr Mills, please go and get stuffed! part 4
Xtra, with its highly incestuous editorial staff, is such a pathetically parochial and inward looking publication which completely ignores the wider global gay community in favour of unproductive criticism of others who are trying to correct this situation. Just pull up the web-site for Pride Toronto and you will see plenty of stories about gay issues originating from other parts of the world. For example, they presently feature a very poignant story about the murderous homophobia which prevails in Jamaica and its consequences for gay Jamaicans. Mr Mills, do you even know where Jamaica is? There are 300,000+ Jamaicans, Guyanese, and other Caribbean people in Toronto which includes many thousands of gay people. Local Jamaican gays are not merely in a gay closet, they are actually in a gay coffin waiting to be buried because quite literally they might be scragged by their fellow Jamaicans just for coming out and identifying themselves as gay. What has Xtra ever published on this subject to help these people? Do you even care? Mr Mills, when was the last time you actually met and spoke to a Jamaican? As another example, I recently met a gay European immigrant who complained that in his home country he was a public enemy because he was gay but here he is a public enemy because he is an immigrant. Living in Toronto is just like living in a big cemetery and talking to the Anglo-Zombies who still control this city is just like having a conversation with the gravestones:- completely futile. Pride Toronto is really doing the outreach work which Xtra should be doing but which it refuses to do with its stupid bloody-minded Calvinist attitudes. It is as if for you people the Pride rainbow has only one color that counts and that is the color of orange.
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
05/11/10 7:26 PM EST
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Mr Mills, please go and get stuffed! part 5
Mr Mills, please go and get stuffed! part 5 We should commend the Pride association for deciding that it is well past time to recognize the multiculturality and multi-ethnicity of Toronto’s gay community and the need to connect with the wider global gay community. Mr Sandilands is an excellent choice for this purpose and she has been doing a good job in this regard and we should support her and not constantly snipe at her and undercut her. In summary Mr Mills, I would like to say:- “Please get off Ms Sandiland’s case and do us all a big favor and go get yourself stuffed!” Floreat Iridina!
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
05/11/10 7:29 PM EST
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Yours Truly got some issues?
Yours Truly you presented a wide ranging condemnation of Xtra and the Toronto LGBT community, I'm not going to respond to it all even though there was nothing you mentioned I agreed with. However, Xtra has reported on the situation in Jamaica, it doesn't do so every issue of course but it has done so in the past, they recently just did an indepth series on the experience of gays/lesbians in Uganda. Xtra has also reported on issues relevant to visible minority LGBT folks in Toronto. Just because there isn't something on these issues in every issue of Xtra doesn't mean they get ignored. I'm not an immigrant to Canada so I don't have first hand experience of being one here and while I obviously don't know every LGBT person in Toronto I can honestly say I've never met an anti-immigrant LGBT person in Toronto, in fact it has always seemed to me that the LGBT community in Toronto was supportive of immigrants in general. Granted it can be tough to meet people here, clubs and bars are a terrible place to even attempt it and there are relatively few other places to meet new people as friends instead of just for sex but I've never seen or heard of anyone rejecting a person just because they were an immigrant. I had a tough time finding my niche in the community when I first arrived in the city too, admittedly I think the community could do better at welcoming new comers but I don't believe for a second it has anything to do with anti-immigrant bias, its mainly to do with folks going about their lives and not concerning themselves with the struggles of new comers to find a place for themselves. I think your condemnation of the community and Xtra is way off base and misguided.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/11/10 8:45 PM EST
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Celebrate ?
When Pride parades first came about, they were to advance gays ( their rights & freedoms ) and to celebrate the gay community in general. I fear that as parades become more and more about politics and one group against another, in time, more and more people will begin to turn their backs on the whole concept of the parade and it's celebration. I view this is a dangerous slippery slope. I for one, will not continue my support if things continue down this slope. I go to the parades in Vancouver & Toronto to have fun, be proud, and support the community - NOT TO FIGHT BATTLES FROM OVER-SEAS.
Jeff Taylor, Toronto Ontario
05/12/10 1:42 PM EST
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jews control city hall too!
so the jews don't like the word arpatheid to describe israel. Do they control toronto's freedom of speech too! They control th U.S. - don't let them shut us up!
cheung wun, toronto ontario
06/07/10 9:55 PM EST
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re: cheung wun
cheung wun you use vast sweeping generalizations about Jewish folks that in my opinion are anti-semitic. Jewish folks have a wide ranging set of political beliefs, most tend to be left leaning and supportive of anti-oppression issues from my experience though there is a growing right wing too. Many on the left are fully supportive of naming Israel as an apartheid state and even some on the right too. Some support Israel unquestioningly and view being critical of an Israeli gov't policy as attacking Israel itself, its those sort of folks who are trying to censor the term in Toronto during Pride. Many members of the group being censored, QuAIA are Jewish Israeli-Canadians themselves. Regardless it is an anti-semitic myth that Jews control everything and that Jews act as a unified group. There is a much difference between different Jews as there is in any other religion or ethnic group. Jews do not control city hall or the media or anything else in the public sphere, they contribute to such things same as members of any other ethnic/religious group and many make invaluable contributions to our society in other ways too but there is no Jewish conspiracy to control the country or the world or whatever, that is also an anti-semitic myth. You need to learn a lot more about Jewish folks and their diversity as well get a basic understanding of how our society functions. Your characterization of Jews is anti-semitic, it sounds like you don't know many Jews at all since you seem to think they act as a group in some way. Besides many Christians and others with no religious belief also oppose the term Israeli apartheid for their own reasons which are just as varied as they are. I oppose censorship strongly as do many people from all ethnicities including Jews and Israelis. Such sweeping generalizations like you make only serve to show your own ignorance and do nothing to help the cause of free speech this is not a movement to support hate speech either since there are limits.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
06/08/10 2:05 AM EST
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Michelle Walker, hypocrite
I wanted to bring the public's attention to the blatant hypocrisy of Michelle Walker, who refused the Pride committee's community service award claiming to be against censorship. Michelle runs Superdyke.com, and allow me to expose the fact, that she censors certain people on her site, and not others who are her friends, or involved directly in her community. Myself, and one other poster, were banned from using her public wall, simply for defending ourselves against overt harassment and bullying. If we said anything it was attacked, and then removed by her. Nothing we said was of a personal nature, or anymore inflammatory or controversial than anyone else. In fact i was repeatedly attacked on a very personal level, called names etc, by someone she left on the wall, and supported. She is a blatant hypocrite. Freedom of expression is for everyone; not only those you prefer, or those you agree with. She claimed she was against censorship to be trendy and go along with the precedent set by others. In truth she is just as pick and choose as the pride committee, if not worse. If you are going to talk the talk then walk the walk or shut the fuck up. Im so sick of the high school mean girls mentality of the gay community in Toronto. We all have the right to BE. All of us; and WE ALL HAVE THE HUMAN RIGHT, to voice, and freedom of expression. AUTHENTICALLY; not just in theory, or posing. As well as inclusion. EVERYONE. Not just those you think are "cool" or "worthy. Toronto newsgirls boxing club is just as bad; persecuting certain women; and leaving them out of their club, after inviting them in for their shape your life program. If you are "too screwed up" in their opinion they not only put you out, they harass and persecute. Dont be fooled by all their publicity. All that glitters is most definitely not gold; fools' gold maybe. ugh.
Shauna, Toronto Ontario
06/08/10 8:36 AM EST
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Force Sandilands to RESIGN
Sandilands - seen one day with Gladstone, the next with Kyle Rae, it's clear her decisions are partisan. She DOES NOT represent the wider community.
J Roman, Toronto ON
06/08/10 10:13 AM EST
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