Pride Toronto plans to censor the term 'Queers Against Israeli Apartheid'
NEWS / Festival organizers 'will not allow participation with this message': documents
Marcus McCann / National / Thursday, May 13, 2010
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Pride Toronto executive director Tracey Sandilands
(Jenna Wakani photo)
Pride Toronto has no intention of letting anyone march in the parade under a banner “Queers Against Israeli Apartheid.” That, at least, is what the festival’s organizers have been telling city officials, according to documents released by the city.

The documents, obtained through the city’s access to information laws, paint the clearest picture yet of Pride Toronto (PT) handwringing over the pro-Palestinian group.

They show PT vowed to city staff that they will keep slogans criticizing Israel out of the parade.

From letters dating back to the fall, it appears that the only stumbling block to an outright ban is that the group that calls itself Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) isn’t incorporated — and therefore is not a legal entity. No legal action can be taken against them as a group, the documents say.

Instead, Pride Toronto told the city it plans to weed out QuAIA's messages during the application phase or on the day of the parade.

A letter dated April 14 from the office of Rita Davies, the city’s executive director of culture, summarized a discussion with PT executive director Tracey Sandilands and co-chairs Jim Cullen and Genevieve D’Iorio. The letter is addressed to the city manager, gaybourhood councillor Kyle Rae and others.

“A review will be made as to whether they can ban a group on the basis of being called ‘Queers Against Israeli Apartheid.’ If that is the registered name of the group this would prove difficult. If not, it is ‘messaging’ and can be covered under the need to abide by the City’s anti-discrimination policies.”

A similar summary was produced by another city official, Lori Martin.

“Further to our discussion with you and Pride’s co-chairs yesterday, our understanding is, given that this is not a registered name, Pride will not allow participation with this ‘message.’”

A briefing note from Davies’s office
dating back to November, 2009, shows that plans were in the works long before the sign vetting policy was announced in March.

“In response to city staff’s continuing concerns, Pride Toronto has confirmed that it is working with a consultant and has been receiving legal advice on how to curtail the anti-Israel marchers in next year’s Pride parade.”

In an interview with Xtra, Davies confirms that the city had “ongoing concerns” about PT’s ability to implement the city’s anti-discrimination policy, and that those concerns stem from a 2009 complaint about QuAIA. But she insists that the city has not taken any position on that group.

“What you’re reading is a summary of, or some interpretation of, something that was said at a meeting,” says Davies.

“When we have a complaint, we review it, and in this case, the complaint had to do with the city’s anti-discrimination policy. So the city manager’s office was involved in those discussions,” she continues. “What we, as staff, were doing, through the city manager’s office, was working with Pride to ask them to show what processes they have to be able to comply with those policies. “

In March, PT announced it would vet all messaging in advance of the parade through an ethics committee. After a loud protest from free-expression advocates, the policy was retracted two weeks later.

At the time, Cullen said that the sign-vetting rules were “not based on any particular word or group.” Also, Sandilands told Xtra that QuAIA wouldn’t be banned from the parade unless its application was found to be objectionable.

Neither Cullen, D’Iorio nor Sandilands responded to our requests for interviews by the time of publication.

But these documents show that Pride has been telling the city one thing and the gay community another, says Elle Flanders, a spokesperson for QuAIA.

“Although we’ve been led to believe, and [Sandilands’] ongoing line is, ‘Well, they haven’t made an application yet,'” says Flanders. “They’re talking out of two sides of their mouth, obviously. On the one hand, they’re telling us they can’t judge us until we make an application, and on the other hand, we have been judged.

Among the documents is an email from Sandilands to senior staff sent shortly after a meeting between PT and city staff, which no one has talked about publicly.

“Well, as expected, as soon as the news broke the left began howling again. This morning on the Facebook group ‘Don’t Sanitize Pride’ there is a call for members to write to the City regarding this issue, so expect to start getting letters soon. I have no doubt we will also be getting them again, as will our sponsors, and we will be mostly ignoring them. This is how they managed to pressurize us into rescinding the Ethics Committee idea, and so will be expecting it to work again” she wrote on April 19.

And that’s disheartening, says Flanders.

“For a long time, I was defending Pride, I was suggesting that Pride is trying to work through a very difficult situation,” she says. “With this information, I can not only say I’m disappointed — it provides us with enough proof that Pride has no interest in community. First, they responded to sponsors. Then they responded to the city and city pressure. It’s no longer a community organization that responds to community needs.”


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Reader Comments


 
Pride Toronto vs. "the left"
It's interesting that Sandilands--who is clearly much more culpable than everyone has been letting on--sees this as a Right/Left issue instead of, say, a right/wrong issue (morally) or a human rights issue (globally). And interesting that she sees "the left", which would be the people who worked for decades to get the rights of gays and lesbians recognized and enshrined here in North America, as the 'howling' 'pressurizing' enemy that demands that Pride Toronto remain political as well as celebratory, progressive as well as inclusive, and accountable to the LGBT community. It's time that Sandilands resigned, that the board was reined in with community oversight and that Revenue Canada stepped in with a nice bracing audit.
David D., Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 4:03 PM EST
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Pride priorities
Reading this, I can't help but be reminded of the Pride ED's twitter comment of March 13... people were of course disturbed that the LGBT community would be censored at this year's Pride festival, and the response was given as... "Lots of misinformation and lies being spread again. Parade terms will be online by end of Mon. After that questions can be asked" Right. Questions can be asked. But only city bureaucrats, anti-queer politicians and corporate sponsors will be given an honest answer. The grassroots LGBT community will be fed the same thing over and over: doublespeak, distortion and outright lies.
Sav., Toronto ON
05/13/10 4:26 PM EST
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Time to Start Fresh
Give Sandilands' and Pride Toronto's complete disregard for the integrity of our community, I believe that it's time for Pride Toronto to be scrapped. Just as Montreal did in the 90s, leading to the founding of Diver/Cite, Toronto needs to start all over with our Pride celebrations. We need to have a Pride that reflects our whole community, not just our sponsors and government. Pride is and has always been a LEFT political event. We need to get back to our radical roots, lose the beer ads, and lose the censorship. ~Morgan
Morgan Page, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 4:27 PM EST
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LIARS = Pride Toronto Inc and ED Tracey Sandilands
One wonders just how many of the PT Inc. board members were complicit in the lying and sneaky censorship effort. For starters, though, SANDILANDS SHOULD RESIGN. Then we need answers from every single member of the board. And, indeed, the community needs to "reclaim Pride" -- perhaps by starting a whole new organization.
Rick, London Ontario
05/13/10 4:39 PM EST
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unbelievable
i can't believe that Pride is being run by such incompetence. Who does Pride think it is working for? I would think much more of it if it were working toward including different voices, worried about clashes of course, but still standing the on principles that Pride stand/stood for as evidenced by its history. When I first started to read this, and I will reread it, I thought that this was old news and that Pride has come to its senses and was working with the community. Now I get the impression that they were playing the community and it was business as usual...Last week we were told to Shut the Fuck Up and this week we were told we were Howling....Well, Howl might be an appropriate thing to do all things considered...homage to Alan Ginsberg and all. r.
roy, Toronto ON
05/13/10 4:41 PM EST
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Middle East Mire
Nice. Middle East politics continues to suck money, resources and time from Pride Toronto. Take your f*cking Politics somewhere else. There's no room for it in the Pride Parade.
Chris, Toronto ON
05/13/10 4:44 PM EST
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Sandilands must resign
Attacking the community in this way is despicable. The board must fire her, and any of the board members who were complicit must be impeached.
Alex, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 4:50 PM EST
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Let's get rid of Sandilands
We have a white south african straight to woman running our Pride who doesn't get that "the left" fought for Pride for years ... out with her... she has been lying to us... a lying idiot.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 4:50 PM EST
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Seriously?
Are you people serious? Pride is trying to reach a compromise (clearly something the groups in question are unable to do) and protect their reputation, their funding, and ensure the festival is peaceful and safe. And you're siding with a radical group that is spewing hatred as part of their message. Yes, I said hatred. You don't use words like apartheid or draw visual replications of a swastika as part of balanced discourse. I say let them in the parade if they don't violate the city's policy. if they do, kick them out.
Mark, Toronto ON
05/13/10 4:54 PM EST
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Seriously, yes!
How is banning a group a "compromise"? Why does one group need to be silenced to appease another? If hate laws were broken, why did no one call the cops?
Alex, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 5:01 PM EST
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@Mark ... yes, seriously
How is it hateful to be opposed to occupation of the West Bank and a siege on Gaza that has resulted in humanitarian catastrophe? Notice that the city has never held a formal investigation into the question of QuAIA violating anti-discrimination rules... these documents show that they would LOVE to do that, but they never will because they know such an investigation has no basis in factual evidence. Instead they rely on distortion to motivate a political witch hunt because that is the only thing that will work for them. Mark, if you are so confident that QuAIA are the bad guys in this, then call on the city to hold a FORMAL, PROFESSIONAL investigation into QuAIA's activities. The problem with doing that for you is that it requires that both sides get a hearing. And when both sides are heard, Israel's distortions never stand up to the light of day.
Sav., Toronto ON
05/13/10 5:08 PM EST
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They did call the cops
The cops responded after someone was hit in the head with a glass bottle. And the group isn't being silenced. I am sure they can promote their cause in a million different ways. They just can't cross the line into hate speech (and yes, the Swastika crosses the line in the minds of 99.999% of the world. It just does.) As somebody said above, Middle East politics has no place in the Pride Parade. If they want, maybe they can have their own parade. No wait, they can't because they violate city policy. Instead let's make Pride jump through hoops so a few dozen people get their time in the spotlight.
Mark, Toronto ON
05/13/10 5:10 PM EST
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Mark: 'Seriously' requires honesty
Pride is not trying to reach a compromise. Pride is trying to play censor. And Pride has been lying to the community about that. That's not compromising: To repeat, that's censoring -- and lying. As for the group QuAIA, it is no more "radical" than every other person who has defended or used the term "apartheid" to describe what's happening in Israel -- including: Kyle Rae, Michael Ignatieff, Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, Naomi Klein, Ehud Barak, and Richard Falk. Are they also guilty of "hate"? Where there is hate, you should call the police (see: http://tinyurl.com/27snw22). That's how hate is handled. So, I ask you: Have you called the police? There is no evidence of any policies or laws being broken. In Canada, we have freedom of expression -- and that includes lawful political speech, whether some people find that "offensive" or not. TOO BAD, that's democracy. What's even more offensive is censorship. (And, on the "swastika" claim, it's an absolute lie: QuAIA members did not wear swastikas. One individual in the parade wore a crossed-out swastika -- which is perfectly legal -- but he is not a QuAIA member.) The bottom line is that Pride Toronto Inc. is not open, transparent, or democratic, that it's trying to censor a legitimate group and lawful political speech, and that it LIES. How can anybody consider Pride Toronto to be legitimate, now? The Executive Director, Tracey Sandilands, must resign.
Rick, London Ontario
05/13/10 5:16 PM EST
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Pride Toronto Inc. has lost legitimacy
Mark: You claim that "The cops responded after someone was hit in the head with a glass bottle." However, you provide ZERO details or references. Are we supposed to take you seriously? QuAIA was never involved in any such violence. Quite the contrary: Members/supporters of the Jewish Defence League (identified by the FBI as a terrorist organization) assaulted QuAIA members/supporters at the Pride parade. And yes, banning QuAIA from the Parade is an act of SILENCING. There is absolutely no basis, no evidence, whatsoever to justify QuAIA's exclusion. Exclusion is silencing. Note that the respected Canadian Civil Liberties Association agrees. See: http://ccla.org/?p=5098 -- and if you want an explanation for what Middle Eastern politics has to do with Pride, then see the FAQ at: http://www.quaia.org
Rick, London Ontario
05/13/10 5:20 PM EST
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anti-fascism is hate speech?
So, a crossed out swastika (a common anti-fascist symbol) is now hate speech? Against who, Nazis? If I see a sign with a crossed out cigarette, I know it means no smoking. If I see a sign with a crossed out P, I know it means no parking. If I see a sign with a crossed out swastika, I know it means no Nazis. If this is confusing to someone, I would suggest for their own safety and to avoid traffic violations they take a refresher course in driver's ed. I'm not sorry if Nazis are offended by Pride. Actually, I hope they are offended. I would be horrified to imagine a Pride Parade which Nazis aren't upset with.
bill, Winnipeg MB
05/13/10 5:21 PM EST
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Yup. seriously.
Hate has no place in the parade. And the argument is not that they are breaking the law. They are violating the city's anti-discrimination policy. And since the parade is held on city property and with city money,that is a big deal. Seems to me Pride is trying hard not to let a couple dozen protesters hijack the parade. And I suspect the other 800,000 or so visitors to the event support that decision. Instead of screaming about Pride trying to fix this, why don't you try to convince QAIA to act respectfully in the eyes of... well everyone it seems but a few blowhards who still read Xtra.
mark, Toronto ON
05/13/10 5:26 PM EST
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What's in a word?
I fail to see what's so hateful about the word "apartheid." After all, Israel and South Africa enjoyed very warm relations with each other during the Apartheid era. Also, regarding Middle East politics in Pride Parades, events at last year's San Fransisco Pride demonstrated that queers can mention the Middle East all they want, just so long as they side with Israel. http://jvoices.com/2009/07/12/queer-jews-will-not-be-silenced/
Leo, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 5:28 PM EST
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@Mark - typical example of pro-Israel distortion
Yes, Mark there was a bottle thrown at Pride 2009. It was thrown INTO THE QUAIA CONTINGENT. And yes, the cops were called after a pro-Israel American tourist grabbed a camera from a QuAIA member and smashed it. You are actually trying to cite assaults perpetrated against QuAIA as evidence that QuAIA is a hate group. Notice that Mark just says "someone" was hit with a glass bottle... he doesn't bother to tell you it was a QuAIA member that was hit.
Sav., Toronto ON
05/13/10 5:33 PM EST
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Great idea - use Pride to condemn a Gay friendly
QuAIA are a bunch of attention-seeking half-wits. They aren't interested in Gay rights and Kyle Rae had it right when he said they are trying to exploit the event to spread their message of hate. I don't know what's more offensive- someone like the not-too-bright Elle Flanders saying keeping the bigots who want to vilify israel and falsely label it "apartheid" shows Pride has no interest in community,as if their hare-brained cause has anything to do with our community, or their using an event that's supposed to be about celebrating Gay culture as a platform to attack a Queer friendly country in favour of those who would persecute us, like the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
Bones, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 5:33 PM EST
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Nice bias, people
Wow, love the bias in the comments and the original article. I don't think for a second that a Pro-Palestine group would illicit the negative response this group is getting. Why? because they are actively, and aggressively, anti-Israel. There is a difference, people. Now, before anyone claims otherwise, I do not think Israel has clean hands in a) their dealings with the Palestinians nor b) on all issues concerning gay rights. They have things they need to answer for. And some of the charges are serious. However, Pride is being hijacked (yeap, that's the right word) by a group wanting to make a political statement about an issue that has nothing to do with queer rights or the queer identity. And that, my friends, is the problem. Plan your own march. Don't piggy back on the efforts (and years) of others. This group is amazingly selfish. Supporting them is amazingly short sighted. Shame.
Damian, Toronto ON
05/13/10 5:34 PM EST
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here's a compromise
Gilles Duceppe (of all people) suggested everyone would be able to have peaceful discussions about this topic if neither side used the words "apartheid" or "terrorist" Maybe it would be a start.
Chris Mack, Toronto ON
05/13/10 5:38 PM EST
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@Damian - ok, but that's a two-way street
If you want to throw QuAIA out on the basis that queers shouldn't express their political opinions at Pride (I disagree, but for the sake of argument...) then are you going to also call on Israel to stop using the Parade to promote it's own national image? Let's remember, that's where this started... Israel has been claiming that the West should support it because it allows for a few gay rights. So if you don't want one side represented in the parade, I assume you want to throw out the other side as well, right?
Sav., Toronto ON
05/13/10 5:40 PM EST
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HIJACK!
Imagine that, wanting to make a political statement at Pride?!!! Well what the hell do you think Pride is? A bunch of corporate floats with equally corporate bodies just dancing around for straight people and queers to feel happy that we have what we have and screw anyone else?!! Oh, yes, it is that. Anti-Israel? So if I don't like the latest Lady GaGa video,does that make me Anti-GaGA? I don't think so. Criticizing Israel does not make anyone anti-Israel, maybe anti-Israel policy and there is nothing wrong with that. If Pride had any integrity, they would just let QuAIA march and the media hype would be but a blip and the focus would be back on your oh so hard worked on abs Damian...but instead they caved and like sharks those who feel they are seeing the glorious state of Israel's branding campaign questioned smell blood. I would say that Pro Israel State Policy folks are the ones who are hi-jacking Pride. Now go dance.
tina, toronto ON
05/13/10 5:43 PM EST
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Uhm... ya
Yes, I am aware the bottle was thrown at a QUAIA member. I didn't say it wasn't. But nice jump to conclusions there. Violence begats violence. That's all I was saying. That and the status quo isn't acceptable to the rest of us 800,000 people who attend. Why doesn't QUAIA throw their own parade. Oh wait, it's because they couldn't get a permit, BECAUSE THEY VIOLATE THE CITY's ANTI DISCRIMINATION POLICY. I think we've let them hijack Pride Toronto long enough. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but it seems like Pride, the city and the rest of the kijillion people who hold Pride dear have already decided; they're not welcome if they violate one of the most celebrated anti-discrimination policies in the world.
Mark, Toronto ON
05/13/10 5:47 PM EST
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Anti-QuAIA mouthpieces are easy to refute
(#1) Did QuAIA violate city anti-discrimination/-harassment policies? While I have seen it suggested -- as a political strategy -- I have not seen any evidence that answer this question conclusively in the affirmative. On the contrary, the respected Canadian Civil Liberties Association (http://ccla.org/?p=5098) says: "It simply does not follow that because a small part of a parade shows material that is offensive and makes some uncomfortable, the parade has created a hostile atmosphere that contravened anti-discrimination policies." (#2) Is "apartheid" accurate and how does it relate to LGBTQ people? Israel is not at all a bastion of queer liberation; homophobia is rampant in its government, military, and wider society. The apartheid regime makes conditions even worse for LGBT Palestinians: Not only are they denied equality rights, but they are also walled into terrible social conditions imposed, in large part, by Israel's policies and actions (e.g., war crimes). Canadians for Justice in Peace in the Middle East produces an excellent fact sheet on apartheid in Israel available for download from: http://tinyurl.com/yaulwr4 -- and also see QuAIA's FAQ at: http://queersagainstapartheid.org/faq/ (#3) We live in Canada -- a democracy, I'm told, where we enjoy freedom of expression as a guaranteed fundamental right. According to our Supreme Court, that includes LAWFUL POLITICAL SPEECH. Being "offended" by lawful political speech is not a valid reason to censor it or to ban a group that exercises this sacred right. Exclusion because of a difference of opinion in a debate is censorship -- and that is silencing.
Rick, London Ontario
05/13/10 5:59 PM EST
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Israeli Apartheid
In a free and democratic society such as ours I can not understand why so many people find it offensive that someone can support the Palestinian position for statehood. In my opinion this would end so much of the turmoil that orginates from the Israeli governments repeated assaults on the Palesinian people. I am not anti-semetic and I hate that I even have to say that here but anytime support is shown for anyone but the Israelis you are branded that. Wasn't it the Israelis who took the Palestiniann lands in the first place?? Let this group march under any title it wants to. Wasn't Pride itself born out of a political stake? That to me is the true essence of what Pride should be NOT the corporate lovefest it has become.
Jeff, Toronto on
05/13/10 6:27 PM EST
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Pride is dead
When Pride stops being about the community and for the community it is pointless and might as well be laid to rest otherwise it will be nothing more than a dancing and drinking festival. I was very impressed with Sandilands and Pride Inc when they listened to the community that censorship is unacceptable to us now I realize we were just being fed a line and being ignored. The executive committee have lost their connection to the community, I was suspicious about it being able to maintain the community spirit when they brought in an outsider with no connection to the community to run things, Toronto Pride is supposed to be about the Toronto LGBT community not some attraction for us to attend but a celebration of us. Clearly Pride has lost its way. I say its time to bury it and reform it again in a way that will serve the community. There's nothing special about drinking and dancing, anyone can do that any time, we need a people's Pride that is all about the LGBT community in Toronto, ban the corporate sponsorships, ban censorship right from the get go. Let us try to learn from Caribana, they managed to maintain a wonderful community event for a long time now, Pride starting getting lost when it got so heavily involved in corporate sponsorship it started becoming a live action commercial and the community groups who its supposed to be about were relegated to the back of the line. Maybe we should split Pride into two separate events, one can be the disneyification of gay Toronto like we have now where nothing unpleasant is allowed and politics have to be checked at the door and the other can be about us, celebrating our LGBT community in all its wonderful diversity, we can just show up and all march together. I'll be attending wearing a T-shirt proclaiming my support for Queers Against Israel Apartheid, they may be able to ban them from marching but they can't ban us from attending. We are have the power to make them heard regardless of what others think.
Rich, Rich Toronto
05/13/10 6:36 PM EST
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maybe city should cut funding
Now that I know we've been lied to and our concerns about censorship totally ignored I sort of hope the city does go ahead and end its financial support of Pride. It might help put Pride out of its misery and make it easier to be reborn as a legitimate organization representing the LGBT community of Toronto instead of Israeli propaganda. Considering that QuAIA in reality has done nothing to violate the city's anti-discrimination clause yet they've been thrown to the wolves as if they were a hate group instead of a human rights group. If the city would actually investigate them for themselves they'd reach the same conclusion yet for some reason they seem incapable of doing so and are only willing to rely on propaganda and lies from the don't dare criticize Israel folks. I couldn't believe someone actually had the nerve to blame QuAIA for having a bottle thrown at them and one of their members being assaulted by a member of the don't dare criticize Israel group. They actually said well violence breeds violence, what is violent about criticizing Israeli policy? They're so blinded by ideology that they can't see that its those opposed to QuAIA who are the violent and dishonest ones who have to resort to violence, lies and a smear campaign because they couldn't find anything legitimate that would justify banning QuAIA. I'm disgusted by the actions of the anti-QuAIA folks, especially those who used violence against them at last year's march but also those who continue to spread lies and propaganda about them. When Toronto Pride starts censoring the community its supposed to represent it has lost all legitimacy and doesn't deserve to continue on as if everything was normal. Shame on Sandilands and Pride Inc. and shame on those trying to censor QuAIA, its through your efforts alone that Pride has lost its legitimacy.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 6:54 PM EST
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A separate Pride for whiners is a great idea
Please, please, please, do start your own pride organizations. I'll even throw in $50 to get all the Pro-anti-Israeli whiners out of the event the rest of us love. If I say pretty please, will you do it?
Chris, Toronto ON
05/13/10 7:03 PM EST
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Quit Lamenting your woes
yes, you live in Canada. Yes, you are protected by the Constitution. On most day, I am actually very much opposed to Israeli policy. But we at this second, we are talking about a specific event, that is in part funded by the city, and that is where your argument dissolves. If the group wanted to march in the Santa Claus Parade, or Caribana they wouldn't be allowed. Nor if they wanted to have a concert at City Hall, or a booth at the jazz festival or Ex. Their house. Their rules. Democracy's a bitch, aint it.
Mark, Toronto ON
05/13/10 7:12 PM EST
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re: Quit lamenting your woes
Please explain what's democratic about censorship? I could see if QuAIA actually violated the city's anti-discrimination policy but they haven't as anyone who actually has examined them and their message knows. The fact that the city isn't doing this but is only relying on complaints from those who don't like others criticizing Israel is a problem. The fact that Sandilands and Pride Inc has been lying to the community is a major problem too. So add on to that please explain how denying due process is democratic? or how is lying to the community you're supposed to represent democratic? Just because politicians do it doesn't mean its acceptable for Pride Inc to do so as well.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 7:19 PM EST
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get their message out regardless
The ironic thing is that the attempts to censor QuAIA has done far more to get their message out than they could have ever managed on their own. I don't even remember them marching in last year's parade, I must have been doing something else when they came by, I for one never even heard of them until I heard about the attempts to silence them, at first I believed they were using hate speech since that's what I was told, it was only my interest in seeing for myself just how bad they were that I realized they weren't bad at all and that I had been lied to and manipulated which really pissed me off. I'm not a member and never will be but the all the propaganda and the smear campaign against them has made me determined to stand up for QuAIA where ever I saw lies and distortions being spread about them. If those opposed to anyone criticizing QuAIA had just left well enough alone me and many thousands of others would never have heard QuAIA's message. By trying to silence them they've in effect given them far more publicity than they ever would have gotten on their own, QuAIA owes those trying to silence them a thank you for all they've done to get out the message about the unjust Israeli policies about the Palestinians. Since it looks like they'll get their way and QuAIA will be banned from the march I think its only appropriate that everyone opposed to censorship wear a T-shirt or carry a sign or flag proclaiming your support for QuAIA and your opposition to censorship so the tradition of promoting QuAIA started by those trying to silence them can live on. Censorship by our own against our own is totally unacceptable and that must be made clear. Pride Inc has lost all legitimacy as representatives of our community and should be shown the same respect they've shown all of us by lying to us and ignoring our concerns, if they manage to silence QuAIA they should be made aware they cannot silence the community.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 7:35 PM EST
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QuAIA lies
The lie that QuAIA is trying to perpetrate, aside from the fact that Israel is an "apartheid" country when it isn't, is that somehow Pride isn't about the LGBT community becuase they are being excluded. These asses don't care about the LGBT community in any sense other than to exploit it for their cause- if they did care about the community, they wouldn't be thinking about themselves and their own self-promotion and be indifferent to the harm they are causing Pride. When did Pride become a venue to attack a country that respects Gay rights and gives Gays asylum in favour of those that persecute Gays? If QuAIA genuinely care about Palestinian Gays rather than caring about themselves and their own CUPE-sponsored self-promotion, they should be protesting Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. It is a CRIME TO BE GAY IN GAZA, punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment. And there is usually torture, sometimes murder of Gays before the imprisonment. If these hypocrites care about Palestinian Gays, then protest against Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, who persecute Gays, not Israel, that respects our rights as Gays and often gives Palestinian Gays sanctuary. Read these about Hamas' and the Palestinian Authority treatment of Gays and think about it: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article575744.ece http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/02/05/MNG5LNUTQG1.DTL http://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/world/israel/isnews005.htm
Bones, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 7:40 PM EST
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QuAIA = a perfectly legitimate LGBTQ group
"MARK": The argument does not "dissolve" because you're entirely incorrect. The only criteria for participation in the Pride parade is that the contingent is either part or supportive of the LGBTQ community, and that it does not break the law. QuAIA is a group of LGBTQ people, its focus is LGBTQ rights in Israel/Palestine, and it has not broken the law. Therefore, QuAIA has every right to participate in the parade; to exclude QuAIA would be censorship/silencing. "BONES": I see that you're still trolling around. As usual, you're presenting red herring arguments that are logical fallacies and therefore both invalid and irrelevant. Anybody who wants the truth about QuAIA should visit: http://queersagainstapartheid.org/faq/ And let us remain focussed on the real issue: freedom of expression and lawful political speech. What this whole issue boils down to is censorship: There are those who disagree with QuAIA's opinions, and so they seek to exclude them from the parade. That's censorship, that's silencing -- and it has no place in a democracy, in Canadian society, and especially in the LGBTQ community. QuAIA exists precisely because Israel does NOT provide equality rights to all LGBTQ people within the borders it controls -- and that's a result of apartheid in Israel. It's a debate, folks: Debate is good. Autocratic exclusion of lawful political speech hurts everybody, and it's certainly not the democratic way to win a debate, either!
Rick, London Ontario
05/13/10 8:06 PM EST
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No Censorship
The Toronto Pride Festival, over its thirty year history, has accepted many different forms of political and personal protest for many different reasons. The recent decision to censor one group from marching because another group finds their message offensive is counter to the spirit and reason for the festival. Pride Toronto is simply giving in to the desires of one small, special interest group and, in doing so, will find themselves in a much larger conflict about censorship and freedom of speech. Those who administrate the festival would do well to remember that Martin Gladstone and his supporters does not define the festival for hundreds of thousands of others and to allow him to do so is both unfair and dangerous. Sincerely Brad Fraser
Brad Fraser, Toronto ON
05/13/10 8:14 PM EST
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Hi Bones!
Charles from Nova Scotia doesn't like pro-Palestine queers... awwww, but he's so determined and isn't he kind of adorable?
Sav., Toronto ON
05/13/10 8:16 PM EST
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re: Bones
Bones you claim that QuAIA is causing harm to Pride however its not them who are trying to get the city to cancel its funding of Pride, its those who would rather see Pride suffer than allow a group they disagree with to march who are causing the harm, actually after learning that we've been lied to by Sandilands and our concerns about censorship ignored I'm starting to think that perhaps less money would help Pride refocus on what's important about Pride. This whole mess would never have happened if those who disagree with QuAIA had left well enough alone and respected their right to have their own opinion but of course when it comes to Israel some consider having your own opinion to be anti-semitic regardless of whether or not that opinion actually is anti-semitic, so this whole issue has gotten blown way out of proportion. I thought the situation was handled very well last year with both sides of the issue marching and expressing themselves but as we now know that sort of balance is unacceptable to many of those who disagree with QuAIA. Really ask yourself who is harming Pride here, those who would march and express their opinions about Israeli policy or those who would yank funding for Pride so everyone associated with it gets less in order to silence one small group of marchers they disagree with.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 8:29 PM EST
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QUAIA- it's this! No! It's That!
London Rick says I'm trolling. With your five posts aleady on this story alone, that's pretty funny coming from you, Rumplestillskin. So now it's all about free expression. That's funny, I thought it was supposed to be about Gay Rights and Israeli oppression. Maybe it was until you actually look at the facts about Gay rights in Israel and the absolute disregard for them by your friends in Hamas. When the hell did Gay rights become a red herring when talking about Pride?! I can answer that, it did when it exposes QuAIA as self-absorbed, exploitative, lying hypocrites. I'm totally sympathetic to what Brad Fraser wrote. I believe in free expression too. But there's also common sense and decency. Those a-hole right-wing religious nuts that show up at military funerals to protest that America is cursed because of Gays have a right to free speech. But if they had any decency, which they obviously don't, they wouldn't pick that venue. If QuAIA had any decency or regard for anyone but themselves, they would pick something other than Pride to use as a venue to attack a Gay-friendly country on behalf of their homophobe friends. Consider starting their own parade, filled with anti-capitalists, Marxist-fascists, and Islamic fundamentalists who will use QuAIA to promote their hate of Israel, and if they ever get their way, will beat you to death. That would be the perfect venue for QuAIA, but not an event that is for the benefit of Gay people and not our persecutors. To Toronto Rich, who sounds like a reasonable person, I would anser both. Neither QuAIA or those who would take funding it away from QuAIA are friends of Pride. As awful as QuAIA are, I don't think Pride should lose funding because of them just as U of T doesn't lose funding for it's idiotic Israel Apartheid week. There is an obvious bias that singles out Pride. I can also sympathise with the "no one's going to tell us what to do" attitude. But QuAIA is exploiting Pride and we should be able to say NO to
Bones, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 9:07 PM EST
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How would a sign ban be enforced?
I hope City of Toronto officials aren't gullible enough to believe what Pride Toronto is telling them. How would a ban against offensive signs of the "Queer Anti-Israel Group" be enforced? Since the group is backed by OCAP (see http://update.ocap.ca/taxonomy/term/160 ) and other seasoned leftist militant demonstrators, I suspect that the group would just "comply" with the ban by showing up to the parade without any offensive signs (e.g., they could "promise" Pride Toronto that they will only march under the sign "Queers for Palestine"). Then, during the parade, they will pull their usual offensive signs against Israel out of nap sacks or from curb side supporters at a pre-designated spot along the parade route. What will the Pride Toronto volunteers or the cops then do? Rip the signs out of the hands of the QuAIA and OCAP marchers? OCAP has gotten violent before. See: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2003/05/11/ocaptrial_030511.html Also see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l30NvTLhzC0 I doubt that the Pride Toronto volunteers will want to risk violence to themselves. I doubt that the Toronto Police will want to risk violence at Pride. So, the Pride Toronto proposal is just a way for them to keep City of Toronto funding, while letting QuAIA "win".
Joe, Toronto Ontario
05/13/10 9:41 PM EST
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Thinking would be nice
Objecting to this group appearing in the parade has nothing to do with limiting Freedom of Expression. That is a silly comment and anyone suggesting it is playing fast and loose with the notion of said freedom. Keeping them out of the parade does not stop them from sharing their opinion in their own parade, through the Internet, by publishing their own periodicals. Denying them that would be denying them freedom of expression. The statement that Pride is about speaking out, and protest, and queers having their say is true. Except that this group is speaking out on another issue, not a queer one. If we are going to allow anyone with any point of view march, great. But then it is not longer a Pride parade but a 'Everyone say what you want' parade, which, though laudable, is something completely different. A pro-gay pro-palestine group would be just as welcome as the Israeli contingent. (Interesting aside: would an anti-Palestine Israeli group be so welcome by those so vocal in their support of the QuAIA group? I think not.)
Kieren, Toronto ON
05/13/10 9:57 PM EST
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Lets have both sides kicked out
Let just kick out the Israeli side and the Palestinian Side both sides are excluded and the problem is solved and there is no need for violence people again no need for bring a Middle Eastern War to the Streets of Toronto
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/13/10 10:46 PM EST
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WTF
Freedom of information is exposing something I didn't expect - a level of dishonesty that needs to be addressed by the community. The Execitive Committee at the City must declare they are funding Pride with or without QuAIA. It will force Pride Toronto to make it clear is it Tracey Sandilands or is she speaking for the board. Time will tell. QuAIA and supporters participate at Pride celebrations globally. Politics or party now is the time to choose community!
Blown Away, Toronto ON
05/13/10 11:25 PM EST
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@Sav really funny just Google PalestiniansGays
really? I'm Bones? just Google the term Palestinians Gays and those links come up on the first page or I'm Bones then but I am in Toronto currently( I'm usually here this time of the year)also to busy to even care about this and I don't have a Pro Palestinian Groups and currently I'm working on a project with both Israelis and Palestinians and they don't act like this at all.
Charles, Halifax, Nova Scotia
05/14/10 12:16 AM EST
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Make things more balance
Why just kick both the Pro Israel Side and the Pro Palestinians Side out to make things far on this issue so nether side wins or gets a chance to hijack pride or do we need more the National Post Headlines about our community. Since it just turning into War, Personally I fail to see how Israel is a Apartheid State and the QuAIA is just causing problems since they didn't seem to have anything with Gay Rights in Canada but another issue not really Gay related and so are the Pro Israel such as Gladstone. I find it funny that even us Queers can't bring two enemies together and make love and not war on this issue in the Middle East so why can't we bring both sides together and march together?
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/14/10 1:10 AM EST
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re: Make things more balanced
I rather think elements of the two peoples ARE united in love and marching together: there are Jewish members in QuAIA.
Leo, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 1:24 AM EST
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re Re: Make things more balanced
I mean why can't Israelis and Palestinians march as one and build bridges of understanding not making it political if No one likes that Idea? then I say Ban Both Israel Groups and the QuAIA its far and no one can do hijacking and it far .
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/14/10 1:44 AM EST
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Summarizing
Some issues need to be clarified here: a) QuAIA consists of many Queer individuals from different backgrounds/religions and affiliations, however, mostly Jewish. And clearly, if one reads their objectives, they’re not Islamist Fundamentalists or supporters of Hamas. So, before labeling people or groups, find out their story or…I don’t know…Talk to them! b) QuAIA didn’t start this issue in any way, shape or form. It was a complaint from people associated with certain Zionist organizers to the City after QuAIA’s march in the Parade last year. Apparently, the City with Pride Inc. decided, instead of investigating anything, to simply ban QuAIA through various ways from marching this year. Therefore, this publicity came from everyone except QuAIA; whether it’s homophobic or ignorant politicians, Zionist organizations, the City or Pride Inc. This is how the issue became a headline, not because QuAIA did a thing to disrupt anything except for conveying their message as a Queer collective in a Queer Festival about the Israeli violations against Queers in Palestine and Israel. Do I need to mention the word “Queer” one more time for people to understand how this associates itself in Pride?! c) Concerned people are concerned because when the City and Pride Inc. start to have opinions and attempt to censor groups because they disagree with them (since there’s no established or announced violation of law or the anti-discrimination policy), it becomes an issue of free speech and censorship. How could one guarantee that the City and Pride Inc. won’t declare more groups in the upcoming years to be hateful or offensive when they do NOT violate anything? Therefore, we need to combat it now before it escalates. d) For those who are struggling to understand why QuAIA’s main objective isn’t fighting for Palestinian Queer rights under Hamas, you’d need to understand first what living under Apartheid and occupation means! For Palestinians to gain their sovereignty, change their own co
Nedal, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 3:07 AM EST
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Kieren: Faulty logic because facts wrong
KIEREN: Yes, "thinking would be nice." But if you're going to think, then you should do it with facts -- not falsehoods. You wrote that QuAIA "is speaking out on another issue, not a queer one" -- and this is the foundation of your whole argument. But you're wrong. QuAIA is speaking out for the rights for ALL queer people in Israel/Palestine -- by opposing apartheid. You also seem to forget that "speaking out" on queer issues is not the sole criterion for participation in Pride: To participate in Pride, one need only be part (or supportive) of the queer community -- and to abide by the law. Therefore, if those are the sole criteria, and QuAIA is excluded despite meeting those requirements, then that is denying QuAIA freedom of expression; that is censorship/silencing by way of exclusion because of a difference of political opinion. It is QUEERS Against Israeli Apartheid -- and the point of opposing apartheid is to ensure equality rights for ALL people who are LGBTQ in Israel/Palestine, not just some as is currently the case. Exclusion = Censorship = Silencing = Violation of Freedom of Expression (Lawful Political Speech). The CCLA has a similar opinion; see: http://ccla.org/?p=5098
Rick, London Ontario
05/14/10 3:40 AM EST
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Summarizing 2
d) For those who are struggling to understand why QuAIA’s main objective isn’t fighting for Palestinian Queer rights under Hamas, you’d need to understand first what living under Apartheid and occupation means! For Palestinians to gain their sovereignty, change their own country and fight for rights, they need to primarily have their basic human needs without military attacks, restrictions on mobility, lack of access to basic resources, discrimination and so on. When that part is taken out, then one can start developing a real functioning country, where things can be fought for then hopefully changed, without that basic human right freedom, issues such as corruption, extremism and further oppression become an easier threat. e) The usual arguments about Israel being the only country in the Middle East that supports Queer rights can be addressed through this great article that deconstructs such claims: http://www.rabble.ca/news/2010/03/coming-out-against-israeli-apartheid-case-solidarity
Nedal, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 4:03 AM EST
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QuAIA are apologists for homophobia
Nedal's comments make no sense. If Palestine becomes an independent state or a wealthier nation, independence or greater wealth will not create the conditions for gay rights. There are many independent Muslim nations with vast oil wealth and they still kill, imprison and persecute gays! QuAIA are really apologists for Muslim homophobia. To be gay in a Muslim country or Muslim territories is to live in fear and be closeted. QuAIA and its members have a greater allegiance to the Muslim and leftist "cause" of eternally bashing Israel, then they do to advancing gay rights. There is no "Pride" in that.
Joe, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 6:29 AM EST
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This isn't a religious issue
Leave it to uneducated fools like Joe to claim that this is about Islam, ignoring the fact that a sizeable portion of Palestinians are actually Christian. But don't let facts get in the way of painting those brown people as all scary Muslim fundamentalists. And as for queer Palestinians themselves who are fighting Israeli apartheid, I guess they don't exist in Joe Ahmadinejad's world. In his mind, it's easier to fight for gay rights under occupation and illegal siege than in a democratic state. This isn't about religion. It's about justice and freedom of expression.
P, Toronto ON
05/14/10 6:53 AM EST
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In response to P
Hey P, you didn't answer my question (above) on why gay rights have not arisen in wealthy, independent Muslim nations. I think this is a relevant question since QuAIA and its supporters like Nedal (above) claim that Palestinian independence and greater wealth will create the conditions for gay rights. Since you claim that I am "uneducated" and a "fool", I assume that you purport to be "educated" and "wise". So, please answer my question and enlighten me. Go on, thrill me with your acumen. Or, P, is all you have to offer is "ad hominem" attacks. Surely, P, that is not the hallmark of an "educated" and "wise" person that you purport to be. Happy Pride!
Joe, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 7:29 AM EST
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March on Pride's offices in protest
When is the march on Pride's office to decry this censorship? I'll be there. There is so much rage against this committee and this ED, and I think we ought to take it to the streets. Frankly I think pitchforks and torches would be appropriate, at least metaphoric ones, but I'm loathe to even say that because g-d knows what the comment will be turned into in the media...
Shawn Syms, Toronto ON
05/14/10 9:18 AM EST
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That's a debate we should have
Joe, we could debate whether gay rights are easier to achieve under military occupation, apartheid, or democracy some other time. That's not the issue here. The issue here is that some people on your side of this discussion are so frightened by this debate that they have gone to extreme lengths to make sure it can't happen. Even threatening funding for Pride Toronto. How is this helping anyone's gay rights?
P, Toronto ON
05/14/10 9:21 AM EST
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FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some sensible talking from PRIDE. "Fist by fist, blow by blow, QUAIA HAS GOT TO GO!" Taken straight from the QuAIA Apartheid 101 handbook. BAN QUAIA. BAN HATE. BAN RACISM.
Peter Benesch, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 9:38 AM EST
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independence no guarantee
As has been noted independence and freedom for Palestine does not guarantee gay rights there but there's no way its going to happen under the current situation where Palestinians are struggling for basic survival, at least in a free independent Palestine there is the chance for gay rights to develop and peace and prosperity does tend to support moderation of political ideology while the current desperate situation of Palestinians only encourages extremism like that seen with Hamas. There are very few free democratic Muslim nations and none of them are in the Middle East. Palestine has the chance to be the first free and democratic mostly Muslim country in the Middle East, largely because it has no oil or anything else anyone other than the Israelis want. Constantly chipping away at Palestinian land through settlements makes the prospect of a viable independent Palestine less and less likely and breeds extremism as a reaction to the loss of their land needed for their future state. I firmly believe anything we can do to improve the conditions of the Palestinians through opposing Israeli policy toward them will only help Israel in the long run. Being critical of Israeli policy doesn't imply you're not also wanting the best possible future for them, it just means you don't believe they have much of a future on the path they're currently on.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 9:48 AM EST
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re: finally!!!!!!
You got their chant wrong, its "brick by brick, wall by wall" not the version you mention which was made up by Gladstone to make QuAIA sound like they might be violent. I had thought everyone by now realized that Gladstone lied about the chant, well that video was full of lies and distortions like the claim that an anti-fascist T-shirt was in fact anti-semitic, I'll never understand how Gladstone twisted that one but he did. Years ago I had thought our modern society would never fall victim to propaganda since we were so advanced, well I realized I was wrong and those who bought into that video continue to show me how wrong I was. Propaganda is as effective today as it ever was.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 9:54 AM EST
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RICK T...You're a liar and a propagandist!!!!!!!!!
The movie clearly shows your group engaging in those hateful chants and wearing racist clothing and carrying racist signs. WE CAN SEE IT IN THE FILM. You make it sound like they filmed some other group altogether. WE SAW YOU. WE SAW YOUR SIGNS. WE HEARD YOUR CHANTS. INCITEMENT AT ITS BEST. You're sick and twisted if you think people can't see your REAL agenda.
Peter, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 10:51 AM EST
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ALL CAPS!!!!!!
I'm right because I AM TYPING IN ALL CAPS!!!!
Alex, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 11:28 AM EST
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The things power and influence can buy.
Silence. The Israeli government has even legislated that the word "Nakba" cannot be used in Israel, by anyone. Nakba - the catastrophe - the year Palestinians began to be wiped out of their land. The federal and provincial governments I'm sure will soon legislate "Israeli Aparthied" as hate speech. It's all fucking ridiculous! These are political criticisms. It's a shame that Pride has become just another economic event for the city and businesses. So QUAIA doesn't directly involve gay rights - isn't it enough that members of QUAIA are queer and they have OPINIONS. There is no meaning or legitimacy behind this event when dissenting OPINIONS cannot be shared in our community. Our Civil Liberties are constantly being degraded. You all should read 1984 or the Handmaids Tale or V (the Graphic novels), all fiction, science - fiction, how life imitates art. FOOLS.
F. Romain, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 11:30 AM EST
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Confused nuetral observer
QuAIA seem to be the victims of hate here. "Fist by fist, blow by blow" is what attracted me to this story in the first place. Seems so inappropriate to be using the words "blow" and "fist" in a political chant at Gay Pride. As it turned out, they were saying "brick by brick, wall by wall" in reference to Israel's "security fence". Gladstone has misquoted them and yet it continues to be used against them. That, and one crossed-out swastika on one t-shirt on one unidentifiable person who may or may not be a member of the group is enough to label the entire group and their message "hateful and racist". I've yet to see an example of real hate coming from QuAIA, yet I keep hearing that they are hateful. I think accusing someone you disagree with of being rascist and hateful without just cause and fabricating the evidence is a form of hate-mongering. It's really dirty, dishonest, and undignified. My question is this: Why isn't QuAIA pursuing a defamation suit against Gladstone? I really think they should. They need to clear their name and a formal retraction by Gladstone is the only way to do it, I think.
Harry, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 11:55 AM EST
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Lies...that is what QUAIA is all about.
The chanters were not "misquoted". They are on film saying "fist by fist, blow by blow". It can be seen and heard on the film. Stop trying to deflect from the truth.
Cecilia Tang, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 12:10 PM EST
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confusion the point?
I think some folks are confused, much of the video shown in Gladstone's video is of other protests in other cities having nothing to do with QuAIA. If QuAIA was really using hate speech why would Gldastone have to resort to using video of other demonstrations in other cities? Surely if they were racist hate mongers like the smear campaign alleges then Galdstone would have had plenty of "evidence" from QuAIA's participation in last year's march to make his video without having to resort to video from other demonstrations in other cities having nothing to do with QuAIA. It seems some may have become confused about what they were seeing in the video, liekly Gladstone's intent all along.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 12:16 PM EST
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The film speaks for itself.
How many of you have actually SEEN the film?? Obviously Haryy (above) has not. You all claim that QuAIA were "misquoted", "misrepresented" etc etc. but no one has even watched the film. The film has segments of QuAIA filmed from the parade by various audience members. There's no fancy editing - it's all real footage of the raging QuAIA lunatics.
Jeremy, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 12:19 PM EST
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Gladstone's video is probably defamatory, but...
HARRY: You are quite right. Gladstone's video is probably defamatory and he does distort the facts -- probably deliberately. He's intentionally playing fast-and-loose with words: For example, to continually accuse QuAIA of being "hateful" quickly results in accusations of "hate." Gladstone is a propagandist, and his video is probably defamatory. A lawsuit against him would probably win, but it would be very expensive and time-consuming. I suspect QuAIA members have considered a lawsuit, and perhaps they'll still launch one, but they'd probably prefer to put their time, funds, and energy towards their #1 goal: Awareness-raising about Israeli apartheid and the suffering of LGBTQ people because of Israeli apartheid. A defamation/libel lawsuit tends to be very grueling for all parties; so much defamation in our society escapes legitimate legal action simply because it's so costly.
Rick, London Ontario
05/14/10 12:20 PM EST
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we saw different videos?
The Gladstone video I saw it was impossible to make out what they were chanting, however I feel those who were there and remember them, I was there but don't remember them, who say the chant was "brick by brick wall by wall" besides which that's what those chanting say they were chanting, so when 2 separate groups of people who should know (those who saw and heard and those who chanted) say the chant was one thing I tend to believe them over someone with an agenda against those chanting and marching who says it was something else all together. I understand those opposed to allowing free speech for those critical of Israeli policy really really really want to have some dirt on QuAIA so they have some legitimate reason to ban them but it seems their desire for dirt has them hearing things that aren't there.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 12:22 PM EST
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RICH you are a liar!
Rich - footage from other parades? Other cities?? Now I know you are a delusional, lying, sack of shit, brainwashed QuAIA dummy. Stop spreading lies, hate and misinformation.
Jeremy, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 12:25 PM EST
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re: "Lies..."
Assuming that's true (as certain parties keep relentlessly asserting that it is), one has to wonder: WHY would a group with a more than sizable Jewish presence WANT to chant "Fist by fist, blow by blow." Precisely WHO are the supposed targets of all the fisting and blowing? Just curious.
Leo, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 12:29 PM EST
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re: Leo's question
Just because someone is "Jewish" - doesn't mean they support Israel or even Judaism for that matter. These "Jewish" QuAIA members are all angry, left-wing, terror sympathizers. They seem to think they have more in common with rocket-launching terrorists than they do with you and me. It's very strange.
Tanner, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 12:42 PM EST
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But it's not true...
BUT... QuAIA did not chant "fist by fist, blow by blow." Gladstone's video footage is totally inaudible. He simply added subtitles to the muffled sound to depict what he wanted to convey. It is the cheapest piece of propaganda crap that I think I've ever seen. It's an insult to a viewer's intelligence, frankly. And Gladstone -- himself -- has already confirmed that several segments in his "documentary" are footage from other places. Again, crap propaganda: Rather than using facts and logic, and presenting an honest portrait of the debate, he advances emotional appeals, misleading imagery, and absurd interpretations. A real investigative documentary would have asked QuAIA to defend itself against the claims; Gladstone, of course, didn't bother. He's only interested in painting QuAIA in a particular way, not in rational argumentation. His homemade propaganda video is utterly appalling; anybody who considers it "factual" must be either a moron or an ideologue -- or both. For more information, see: http://tinyurl.com/ycxg9wy
Rick, London Ontario
05/14/10 12:45 PM EST
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I've Never been to Nova Scotia
But I hear it's nice. Yeah, apparently it takes a super genius to do a google search and paste a link. It's so far beyond some people's capabilities they have concluded that rather than more than one person doing it, it must be the same genius masquarading as different people from all over the country. Now I'm going to do something else a only super genius could do that is beyond the intellectual capabilities of a QuAIA supporter. I'm going to make a cup of coffee.
Bones, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 12:47 PM EST
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@Tanner
Ah, I see. So, a Jewish person's political views somehow determine the degree of their Jewishness and whether or not we put "Jewish" in quotes. Very elucidating.
Leo, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 12:50 PM EST
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It's NOT about Israel
People. Stop talking about Israel and the Middle East conflict! Anyone who thinks this is still about QAAIA or Martin Gladstone, or Israel is not paying attention. This quote from Sandilands is shameful. She is talking to the City out of one side of her mouth and the community out of the other. She is painfully ill suited to the position she holds. She has been parachuted in to a community based event from another continent and has NO IDEA what she is doing and no attachment to OUR community - because it is not hers. She is in Toronto for a job and for no other reason. This is not her Pride, she does not care about this community. The management staff and Board of Directors of Pride Toronto are totally disconnected from the community as evidenced by this quote from Sandilands, the formation of the Ethics Committee, the decision to exclude the community from the decision making process for Grand Marshall, the recent Blockorama Community Meeting, the frustration in the Trans community regarding the trans march. So once again, it's not about Israel. Nothing but a complete change in leadership is acceptable at this point.
Gail, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 1:04 PM EST
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Chill out people!
Read the story. Read the commnents. Do any of you personally know any of the QuAIA people? I do. You're giving them exactly what they want. They aren't anti-Semites. They're talentless, attention-seeking losers who thrive on conflict. This cause is about them getting attention for themselves and nothing else. This controversy gives them everything they want. Don't censor Pride. Let them march. Just ignore them and they'll shrivel up and go away.
Louise Please, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 1:06 PM EST
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Hi Jeremy
Obviously I have seen the film otherwise I wouldn't be talking about it. You and anyone else can watch it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQjqOh320VA Listen closely. Don't read the words, just listen... It's clearly "brick by brick, wall by wall" which when you think about it, makes a lot more sense in referring to Israel's "security fence" then chanting anything with the words "blow" and "fist" at a Gay Pride parade. The video is so biased it's almost comical. Even still, I didn't see any raging lunatics, just a loud fat girl and a guy with a mohawk. Really intimidating...
Harry, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 1:11 PM EST
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Leo is "elucidating"
Leo - fuck off. You asked a question - you got an answer. It's an answer you don't like and one you disagree with, so obviously it is "elucidating" to you that some people have different opinions. Stop with the baiting. Classic QuAIA behaviour.
James G., Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 1:33 PM EST
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Hi James G
I don't think "elucidating" means what you think it means; (to make clear, clarity through explanation). Your sentence "It's an answer you don't like and one you disagree with, so obviously it is "elucidating" to you that some people have different opinions" makes no sense. Leo was being sarcastic I'm sure, but it is peculiar to put quotes around the word "Jewish" when refering to actual people who are actually Jewish. Can I put quotes around the word "gay" when refering to "gay" MP Kyle Rae? I am seeing some general consistency from the side opposing QuAIA. James writes "fuck off" and ealier Jeremy writes "sack of shit" not to mention Gladstone's false accusations. These are examples of abusive hateful behaviour. I've yet to see such an example presented regarding QuAIA.
Harry, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 2:09 PM EST
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Harry and the worlds smallest violin..
Harry - buy a box of kleenex and whine all you want in the confines of your own bachelor apartment. BAN QUAIA.
Raph Costas, Richmond Hill Ontario
05/14/10 2:15 PM EST
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Manipulation
My uncle Bert (google "Bert Bochove, The Dutch Rescuers" for the complete story) hid Jews throughout the second world war. If the family has a hero, he's the guy. My education on the holocaust came from my parents best friends, with whom we shared a semi-detached house. They were both holocaust survivors who saw their whole families murdered simply because they were Jews. When Clara had nightmares of the camp days my mother had her over in the middle of the night so she could talk. She woke us, the children, for those talks. There is no doubt in my mind that the state of Israel needs to exist, none at all. Now, to the issue at hand.
Peter Bochove, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 2:32 PM EST
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Hi Raph
Actually I'll be having sex with my wife after I put the kids to bed in our 3-bdrm Riverdale house. Insult me all you like but seeing the anger and dishonesty directed against QuAIA has really caught my attention. The lack of empathy and sensitivity and the arrogance being shown by those that want to BAN and silence an opposing political view is really disturbing.
Harry, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 2:38 PM EST
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"Go intersectional or go home"
Two observations on all this battle of wits. It's pretty clear that the anti-QuAIA people (or at least those opposed to their politics) have lost the debate, and reading this site shows why - lies, misrepresentations, willful denial and poor attempts at insults are the order of the day with these losers. It's therefore completely understandable that they want to ban QuAIA from exercising their constitutional rights to freedom of expression. These folks, and in particular Mr. Gladstone, use laughable smear tactics that any independent observer can see through. Move on, folks! Second, what Gail said above in "It's NOT about Israel" is a much more relevant comment on this issue. There clearly is a need to reclaim Pride from Pride Inc., and the latter's lies and hypocrisy to the community they claim to be speaking for. I would argue that QuAIA and similar groups that express themselves politically, who make the links between and intersections of forms of oppression, are a vital part of that project. Denying them their agency to do that is to spit in the face of the people whose struggles made Pride (Inc. or otherwise) possible in the first place. Ms. Sandilands said it best when while engaging with the community on this issue, pretending to agree with the importance of the expression rights of groups like QuAIA, and stating at some point that "you either go intersectional or you go home". Clearly, it's time to Ms. Sandilands to follow her own advice (i.e. pack your bags and go home), and/or quit running interference for the board of PT and the City (which would probably amount to "go intersectional AND go home" in practice, but I digress).
John, Ottawa Ontario
05/14/10 2:38 PM EST
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RIVERDALE.
nuff said. I'm sure your wife looks like a man.
Raph Costas, Richmond Hill Ontario
05/14/10 2:40 PM EST
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Manipulation 2
Pride Toronto handled this very badly. They should have simply stated that they did not want QuAIA in the parade. They didn't. They hired Jaimie Watts to supply "talking points" because we are idiots who can't think for ourselves. I take no position on QuAIA. I do think Sandilands behaviour is outrageous and she should resign, today. Her remarks regarding the left howling and how the left should be handled disqualifies her from serving this community. Right or left, pro or anti Isreali, we deserve better than this woman. Outrageous.
Peter Bochove, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 2:53 PM EST
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leave our pride alone
Why did extra only interview this idiot Flanders who wants to abduct our gay pride. What about all those who are happy pride Toronto wants to keep gay pride for the gays and the not the haters!
Gay boy, toronto ontario
05/14/10 3:06 PM EST
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No Parade Please
Would Pride be better without a Parade? I think so and it has nothing to do with this controversy, but it does make me think about who the audience is for Pride. I don't care about those predominately straight folk who line the parade route, take up space and make a mess. Really, do you think they'll switch to TD after they see the float, or go to a play at Buddies after they see that float...it's not like we're saying "We're Here, We're Queer" anymore...I still believe that any queers that want to march should, but to what end. I would rather QuAIA have a table along with everyone else during Pride than walking through the boring route...jockeying to see the same old thing again and again...unless they bring on the upside down clowns (in chaps), I say cancel the parade and bring Pride back to the queers who it's supposed to be for...I'm not here to discuss QuAIA anymore...that conflict has been going on for centuries and while I support QuAIA, I don't know how their position will be heard since it's up against a position that is a belief, not based in any reason. The pro-Israel voice is strong and powerful...keep fighting QuAIA..I'm there, but these discussions on-line are fruitless. You can't convince a child Santa Claus doesn't exist when they still want gifts.
loki, toronto ON
05/14/10 3:13 PM EST
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Go to Gaza and do this
Elle Flanders and her cultural studies cant crowd can shove their bellicose and divisive rhetoric. For the love of cunt, a community group should be trying to build support through persuasion and reason, not by associating with a bunch of assholes and frightening families. Why can't you march in solidarity with Palestinians? Is that no longer clear enough? No, because they have an anti-Israel anti-American Frankfurt School obsession and are simply hijacking Pride to do it. Pride is no longer a safe place to be. I'm staying away. Thanks for ruining it, bitches.
Tired of this, Toronto ON
05/14/10 4:01 PM EST
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Sandilands should go; the buggers shld march
it isn't a right or left issue as Tracey Sandilands is said to have stated, but a right or wrong one. It is not right to ban a group or censor placards unless it is a hate crime or criminal in which case the police can handle it. Peter Bochove is right (above) that Tracey Sandilands should resign (or be fired) for framing it the way she has been quoted, and for generallymisunderstanding the history and raison d'etre of pride and gay liberation. This issue has been done to death. Just let the buggers march and be done with it. It will be hardly noticed and the world will go on.
james dubro, toronto ontario
05/14/10 4:03 PM EST
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Don't focus on Sandilands
I haven't observed Sandilands closely enough to know how well she's handled this - on the surface, not well - but it would take a pretty skilled mediator to get around this quagmire unscathed by one side or the other. I hope that Shawn's suggestion isn't acted upon, though I don't doubt his genuineness and never have. (I don't care for QuAIA's approach but there are enough people of good character involved - Flanders, Khaki and McCaskell come to mind - that accusations of anti-Semitism cannot be supported). Sandilands is not the issue, and whether she's handled it well is really secondary; this is an issue that has truly divided the community, and foisting it all on her back is dishonest in that it suggests she is the font of the problem. Don't go that route. Many of us are both very uncomfortable with the messaging of QuAIA as well as the ultra-censorial response indicated here. We can, some of us, disagree with you while supporting your right to make your voices heard, within the confines of the law (and laws about hate speech have served us well). It's a difficult situation because, well, it is! not because of one person's alleged lack of political skills. What good would a mob of torch-wielding villagers focused on her/Pride do aside from confirming QuAIA's emerging image as a bunch of attention-seeking hotheads? Please find another way and don't stir this up any further. I can't see that helping Pride, QuAIA, the Palestinians or our communities. You have enough collective brainpower to find a better way forward.
Alex MacLean, Toronto ON
05/14/10 4:27 PM EST
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Tracey Sandilands is a disgrace
No, this is pretty simple: She's a two-faced back-room dealer, she misled the entire community, and she disparaged an entire section of the political spectrum -- by giving a "heads up" to the bureaucrats working to censor members of the community. She has lost all legitimacy. She doesn't know this community, she disrespects the community, she's dishonest, and she's a disgrace. End of story. Sandilands must go.
Rick, London Ontario
05/14/10 5:00 PM EST
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@ Rick
Again Rick fallacies you also don't speak for the community either or the group you lobby for.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/14/10 5:08 PM EST
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2 thoughts
I agree that the main problem in all of this is with the board of directors of pride Inc in particular Sandilands though not her alone. Pride is ultimately about the Toronto LGBT community, regardless of what cause a group is advocating, or its about nothing. The board of Pride Inc seems to have lost sight of this and instead seem to see it as something more akin to an amusement park or music festival or whatnot that they invite the community too. Sandilands comments make it pretty clear her focus is not on the community at all. In my opinion the entire board should be replaced with one focused on the community alone and in the future some connection to the community should be made a requirement of all those who take paid positions in Pride Inc. Perhaps its time Pride was split into 2 parts, one can retain the community connections including its political edge and the other can be all fluff and a disneyfied display of "nice" LGBT folks. Keep the Dyke March and Trans March but add a Pride March too in the same spirit of the first two and the early Prides, let the disneyfied part keep the Pride parade since its mostly just a live action commercial anyways. That way everyone should be happy and could attend whatever event they most enjoy. Since the LGBT community has become so large and diverse its become clear that one event can't contain it all anyways. Montreal has 2 gay events, I'm sure Toronto could handle two as well.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 5:12 PM EST
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re: Tracey Sandilands is a disgrace
Well said Rick, much better than my attempt at trying to say much the same thing, I need a coffee and some thing to eat so I'm out of here.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 5:24 PM EST
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Perhaps...
Sandilands needs to go. She does seem to court controversy, but she's hardly alone there. She could be canned tomorrow - who knows what will transpire. But that still won't solve the impasse over this in and of itself. With QuAIA on one side, and the Mammoliti/pull the funding assholes on the other, this would still have come to a head or be resolved in a way that would leave somebody pissed off. At the very least, she's not the person to resolve this. But I don't know who is.
Alex MacLean, Toronto ON
05/14/10 5:40 PM EST
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Can't Wait to March w/ QuAIA
This double-talking and circumlocution around the inherent political nature of Pride has gotten me so excited to march side by side w/ QuAIA, if they'll have me. At a recent community forum, one of the last questions raised was, "What does Israeli treatment have to do with Queer Rights?" If we have to answer that question, which clearly we do, even at this late date, amongst our own, then it isn't surprising that capitulation in the face of threatened funding cuts has always been an option. Peace and Pride!
thom, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 5:47 PM EST
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Pride is many things.
Thom suggests fatigue with the question "What does Israeli treatment have to do with Queer Rights?" This is a question many people have. Many people don't have higher education where many of us first gain exposure to these issues. Many people come from part of the world where the conflict doesn't get much coverage or where there is press censorship. Many people see Pride as one day of the year potentially free of conflict. Many people come to Pride because a sibling or parent or child is gay. Many people come to Pride who are newly out. Many people come to Pride who deal with many conflicts within their own life and simply wish to celebrate. Many people come to support a friend or coworker. There's a bunch of ways in. I agree - Pride is political. For me and you. But you have to make room for people who don't, or at least not yet are not willing or able to look at it like that. It's a big tent. Try to move over and make room for others who aren't like you. And try to be a little less world weary that there are still people who haven't come around to your way of thinking or who - gulp - just wanna have fun.
Alain C., Oshawa ON
05/14/10 6:00 PM EST
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Alain, Alas not Delon
Alain, I'm so glad I seem to have provoked you! I am not fatigued at all by this issue. On the contrary, I think it's essential and vital. In spite of my surprise that we needed to have, what I thought was, a remedial conversation about the relationship between Queer Right and Human Rights. I have to say, too, that I find your assertion that one has to have a higher education to think critically about Pride, its content and its participants, gulp, elitist. It is exactly this sort of thinking that keeps the mouths of so many within our community of communities shut. Pride is absolutely a celebration, for me and many others, but it is not only a celebration, for me and many others.
thom, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 6:49 PM EST
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Don't misrepresent me, please
I said nothing that like, although yes, the word elitist is fun to throw around when you need to hit below belts. Just know that you're tossing it at someone who had no more education than grade 11 until my forties. I never had much exposure to the Middle East conflicts except as something of the news until I went to university in middle age. You can call it elitist if you want, but people who work for a living in the service industry have different concerns and interest than those with education and the class-climbing that accompanies it. The question, I remind you, was not "can we think critically about Pride without a PhD", it was about the link between MidEast politics and sexualities, a link that is much easier to articulate if you've had a good grounding in liberal arts education. I've said nothing nearly as deterministic as you have alleged, and will not suffer charges of elitism having I spent a good part of my life slinging food and drink at people who looked down on me with condescension at the cause of my lack of education and my accent franco-ontarien. The original question you referred to is still there. Care to answer it, or is it enough to simply imply one exists and that the stupid will have to figure it out for themselves? Talk about elitism.
Alain, Toronto ON
05/14/10 7:21 PM EST
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Hate tactics of anti-Israel groups
Here's a video showing the hate tactics of Anti-Israel groups on university campuses in Canada and the United States (including scenes at York University in Toronto, where certain QuAIA leaders are based). It's terrible that QuAIA is trying to bring the same hate tactics to Pride. http://campusintifada.com/widget/LP_V_W.html
Joe, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 9:02 PM EST
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did anyone hate S.Africans?
I'm curious if anyone came to hate white South Africans when we were protesting against their apartheid? I know I never did, I hated their policy and thought it was awful but I never actually hated South Africans because of it, i could see if I were black and living in South Africa during those years I would probably hate but as a young guy in Canada I had no trouble separating the policy from the people, well I did despise the gov't for defending it but I knew the gov't wasn't the people much like it is in Canada, besides I had no personal connection to it so I had no reason to have such a strong reaction. I think its the same for the vast majority of people criticizing Israeli apartheid today, hate the policy yes and maybe even the gov't who promotes it but hate average Israelis? I don't see it, nor have I heard it from others talking about the issue. The vast majority of people have no trouble separating the actions of the state from the citizens of the country just like it was during the cold war too. I also really don't see how being critical of Israeli policies is supposed to incite hatred against Jews in general, it goes without saying that Israel may be a Jewish state but not all Jews are Israeli,especially Canadian Jews who obviously aren't Israelis. Anyways I was just thinking about the hate argument again and couldn't figure out how QuAIA was supposed to inspire hatred.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/14/10 9:07 PM EST
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Fair Enough, Alain
Fair enough. Elitist is a cheap shot. To be fair, too, though, it seemed to me that that was what you were implying. But you and me squabbling over who's got the most authentic take on this issue is exactly what keeps all of our communities in our place – not the discussion itself. Our educational bkgrounds are not so different. I spent ten years in food service back in the day. Answering "What do Queer Rights have to do with Palestinian Rights?" deserves a paper not a comment box at the end of an article. I stand by my experience that one doesn't need a higher education, let alone a PhD, to think critically about complex matters of importance to all of us. It seems we agree on that point.
t, Toronto Ont
05/14/10 9:09 PM EST
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And, Since I Don't Have a PhD...
...maybe I'll take up the writing of that paper.
t, Toronto Ont
05/14/10 9:28 PM EST
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t, Toronto Ont
I think that Queers in Palestine should have equal rights in Palestinian Society who would be against that? But the only thing I'm failing to see how is Israel to blame for it when the Hamas and Palestinian National Authority are the government of the Palestinians and would have to be the people who would have to make this change and I agree it needs a paper not just a comment broad it might answers some Question that no one can't seem to answer looking forward to it then
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/14/10 10:13 PM EST
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Jim Cullen lied?
"At the time, Cullen said that the sign vetting rules were “not based on any particular word or group.” So Jim Cullen was dishonest? I had respect for him before but he's lost it. This is shocking and he should be ashamed of himself. No matter your feelings about QAIA the co-chair lied and that's a bad reflection on the organization. How can anyone trust Jim Cullen again?
Lori, Hamilton Ontario
05/14/10 10:24 PM EST
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hypocrisy rules
All those now protesting the "lies" of the Pride administration don't seem to have any problem with the LIES constantly told by QIAI... starting with their name which is a brilliant (but untruthful) PR manipulation right from the word go. The question is not "censorship"... the question is: why should one distinctly manipulative bunch of SOB's (who think they have the monopoly on Truth) get to scuttle the GOOD FEELINGS of Pride by bringing into the equation something that has absolutely NOTHING to do with gay issues? I have said it before and I will say it again. This group of highly professional manipulative leftists have 364 days of the year to get their message across ... why the FUCK let them SABOTAGE the good vibes of Pride on the ONE day of the year when (until they arrived on the scene!) everyone got along just fine?
ken, Paris france
05/15/10 5:25 AM EST
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I don't understand
why a white, South African STRAIGHT Obese Woman is the Pride Toronto ED? I don't get it? Who is she representing? Whose interests?
tim, toronto on
05/15/10 9:19 AM EST
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dear QuAIA, apply for your own parade permit
If you have a problem with Israel, then go organize your own march insteading of mooching attention off Gay Pride. Thank You.
Ryan, Toronto ON
05/15/10 2:00 PM EST
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Repeal the Human Rights Act, Tim?
Tim says: I don't understand why a white, South African STRAIGHT Obese Woman is the Pride Toronto ED? I don't get it? Who is she representing? Whose interests?" Tim, I think that the stories linked above point to some problems with Sandilands behaviour, commitment to community inclusion and indeed her professionalism. However, had Pride denied her the job because of any of your list of disqualifications, they would have been in contravention of the Ontario Human Rights Code. We fought hard for inclusion of sexual orientation in that code, building on the work of human rights activist who preceded us. How about we not reject people on the basis of it? In the interests of integrity, consistency and abiding by the (just) law, say? And it should go without saying but apparently doesn't, her nationality, gender, and 'race' as well. And jeez, what in hell does her body type have to do with anything?
Alex MacLean, Toronto ON
05/15/10 3:47 PM EST
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Funny Tim
I wonder what would happen if Tracey Sandilands was a Israeli national they would be screaming bloody murder and still would be a violation of the Ontario Human Rights Code.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/15/10 4:35 PM EST
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Gays in the Middle East
I'm appalled as much as anyone about the crap happening in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank to both Israeli and Palestinian citizens. Not a nice place to live. The irony of the matter is that Israel is probably the only place in that region that these Queers would be respected and not popped off because of homophobic Arab culture. Pride is not a May Day parade. Let's not get confused. It's a celebration of diversity - not a parade for opportunist protesters.
John, Toronto On
05/15/10 7:37 PM EST
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Just making
observations. I'm not a woman, I'm fit and lean, I am from Toronto and I'm not straight. I still don't understand why she was employed over others? Who does she represent? No, really just who does she represent?
tim, toronto on
05/15/10 7:43 PM EST
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Tim @ 7:43pm
I'm not on anyone's side but are you inferring that because you are a gay, fit and lean and from Toronto that these are the credentials needed for the job. She's representing an organization putting on an event. When did sexual orientation and sexiness have anything to do with a person's requirement to hold a position (unless one is a porn star or prostitute - whatever they call escorts these days).
John, Toronto On
05/15/10 8:46 PM EST
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@ Tim
you're just making observations alright, but those observations are completely superficial and they don't say anything about a person's character or who he or she represents (whatever that means). and thanks for telling us all your own stats - that are you 'not a woman' and 'not straight', and so 'fit and lean' - but save that for another website forum. your need for attention only distracts from the main story and leaves everybody confused.
Ryan, Toronto ON
05/15/10 9:00 PM EST
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So
what I'm hearing is that there are no qualified gay fit lean men or LGBT of character from Toronto to better represent LGBT Pride(?) which is really nothing more than just an "organization" anyway? Okay then thanks for clearing that up. I've been schooled.
tim, toronto on
05/15/10 9:46 PM EST
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Sorry Tim the law or is it something else here
So again, it the law that employers can't discriminate based nationality, gender, or sexual orientation. Pride Toronto is a employer like any other organization public, private,or non- profit. Its funny that your criticizing her for being South African I can only wonder why could it be something she might be seeing here or a certain group might want to cover something up about their agenda at Pride. Very Very interesting
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/15/10 10:01 PM EST
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Actually Peter
The point is that SHE isn't qualified to run a queer festival because she is obviously out of touch with our history, our politics, our identity and the fact that we are a multi-ethnic bunch of... what did she called us "leftists"... That she corresponds with the city and tells them that she won't read our letters and emails ... says to me that she is not qualified to lead us at all.
Zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/15/10 10:13 PM EST
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RE: Gays in the Middle East
"Pride is not a May Day parade. Let's not get confused. It's a celebration of diversity" Except for diversity of opinion, of course.
rick, toronto ON
05/15/10 10:23 PM EST
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About Mark
A while ago someone from the Pro-Israel implied that QaIA had acted violently. He had to admit that it was a Pro-Israel supporter who threw a bottle at a QaIA member and that this is why the police had to be called. Mark had to admit it, though he was, and it is a terrible character trait, trying to distort things by managing information (which we see at the broader level with the pro-Israel side). What really bothers me is that he then justified the throwing of a bottle to a pace protester by saying that violence begets violence. Is he insane? I would say he is? It seems that like Israel, the pro-Israel side is not willing to take responsibility for anything they do. Where, when, do we find someone so disgusting as to claim that a violent act like throwing a bottle is ok because they don't like what the person is saying? What the pro-Israel group is doing is uncivil and antisociable. I do want to say, violence begets violence, you throw out a bunch of palestian farmers, often at rifle point (I do know the IDF were a bunch of terrorists before independence), kill a few on the way, over the years kill thousands, and then you can't just call yourself a victim. To me, the pro-Israel side is racist to a degree that I have never seen before. Mark and Peter are racists because faced with the evidence they will distort it to the benefit of Israel despite the misery its policies have inflicted in other human beings. It is hate to be faced with the horric things Israel has done and to ignore them.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/15/10 10:23 PM EST
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Really? Zezi that's discrimination
So becasue she does not agree with your thinking she is unqualified ? again that is discrimination it also applies to politics in the eyes of the law again she can not be fired based on political beliefs. Interesting I'm Gay and I don't agree with your thinking so in your mind I would not be qualified to be Gay funny how you people love to discriminate and it seems that nationality or politics or sexual orientation is all the cards you use. Ever thought she might be a queer ally just ask all the straight people who do go to Pride and its not 100% Queer. She is South African, who cares? what if she was Israeli and Gay? Again in your mind she will be unqualified(I wonder why)
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/15/10 10:32 PM EST
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Zezi calling people racist is far left censorship
Again Zezi ,I'm not a racist again throwing out that card is a tool you people use to censor people you don't agree with,( again censorship issue you people use a lot and I don't like it either ) and this is like screaming Witch in Salem Massachusetts in 1692 they did that to people they did not agree with and it never worked out in the end for anyone. I could care less about ether side and I think both should be banned, funny how you do act a lot like the Israel Lobby, they just use the holocaust to justify anything they do and the Pro Palestinians are using their suffering to advance their causes. Human suffering is a great cash cow or political tool. Also again you still never answer how A Middle Eastern War has anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? both sides could answer this question and yet NO ONE HAS. Zezi the only racists that are here are the people who lie like the Pro Israel and the Pro Palestinians sides blaming each other sorry that I don't agree with either side but I'm not a racist for thinking that way.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/15/10 10:50 PM EST
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I agree w/tim
Right on tim!! I too wonder why we can't find a fit and lean LGBT from Toronto to run Pride.
crsytal is my friend, toronto on
05/16/10 12:47 AM EST
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Stop the size comments
It's not appropriate for QuAIA supporters to make derogatory comments about Tracey Sandilands' size (see above posts). Will those QuAIA supporters also be making derogatory comments about Elle Flanders's size or the size of other women who march with QuAIA? See http://www.wsws.org/images/2009sep/s16-tiff-480.jpg for a photo of Flanders. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQjqOh320VA for a clip of the QuAIA marchers in last year's parade.
Doug, Toronto Ontario
05/16/10 8:01 AM EST
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no
"derogatory" comment was intended, simply an observation and a question. Was there no QUALIFIED LGBT from Toronto for the posting of ED? Enough about the fit and lean...she may have a glandular problem for all I know, but it is irrelevant. I was just wondering why no one who is remotely close to any of my gay male celebratory issues (culture) is in the post of ED. But if it's nothing more than a Santa Claus or St. Patrick Day's Parade I get it. Mea Culpa.
tim, toronto on
05/16/10 10:15 AM EST
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Pride ED should resign, lets focus on the relevant
Tim is right to question Sandilands on being the right person for Pride ED... she is disconnected from our community and clearly has no interest in serving it (instead, she wants to make demands on the community)... unfortunately Tim went the additional route of picking on Sandilands for physical characteristics that are irrelevant to the question and (those comments) could be hurtful to some. He's acknowledged that now, so let's get back to the question of Pride and how to improve it.
Sav., Toronto ON
05/16/10 11:36 AM EST
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support for Pride ED
Incorrect Sav, Sandilands has not shown to be out of touch with the community at all, she is trying to save Pride. Pride has been a boon for the community in recent years and that wouldn't have been possible without the financial support of governments and businesses. Sandilands is fighting to secure those essential sponsorships so we can have a Pride that all of us in the community want each year. She is also trying to save her organization from financial ruin before the 2014 World Pride that Toronto will host. The question is, do we want a Pride or don't we? If we do, then we can't be constantly slamming Pride Inc. for simply doing what is necessary to have the bloody festival in the first place. Pride costs money. Groups like QuAIA that try to override Pride Inc.'s policies makes govts and businesses less inclined to invest in the festival. Sandilands is trying (poorly some may say) to prevent that from happenening, so it is incorrect and offensive to accuse her of going against our diverse community. For the record I have no relationship with either Sandilands or anybody on the Pride Exec. I just find it infuriating when people like Elle Flanders (who naturally gets the last word in this editorial) go after the character of people working for Pride Inc. just because they don't support her particular agenda the way she sees fit.
Ryan, Toronto ON
05/16/10 4:44 PM EST
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support for LGBT community
So Ryan you're saying we should kick queers out of the parade so that they can be replaced by corporations? The parade is already too corporatized. Corporations aren't queer and I don't have much interest in their support, especially when they "support" Pride by making demands that certain groups be excluded and trying to "soften the image" (i.e. make it less queer) of the parade as a whole. I would rather have a smaller parade that has actual content, an actual message, than the big fluffy and kind of hollow thing we have right now. The LGBT community is different... let's actually show how diverse and interesting our community is! You don't have to agree with everything at the parade to enjoy it.
Sav., Toronto ON
05/16/10 9:29 PM EST
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when did we stop fighting?
The state does not mind if the LGBT community supports capitalism through hyper consumerism and sexuality. But when the movement 'gets' political (as if that is not what it was based out of) and starts to actually THINK about issues such as HUMAN RIGHTS and GLOBAL JUSTICE, well that is simply not cool with the dictates of global capitalism. We are allowed to fuck and shop, but clearly NOT think! Broadening the movement to oppressed persons on a global scale is FIGHTING for justice, and makes for a much more interesting conversation than the individualist concerns of sexuality and consumerism, that are self-serving; and frankly, do not make for a sexy lover.... Movements support other movements, and it seems kind of sick to support the obvious extravagance of sexuality and happiness of Pride when these same streets also see marches of peoples who have lost so many relatives to the continued colonial attacks on Palestine, Sri Lanka, Honduras that is supported by OUR military and State capitalist system. LGBT can not consider itself a 'progressive' community if is continues to refrain to address the other horrifying issues in the global community. Only through a UNITED FRONT of movements will we be able to challenge, and overthrow this disgusting state that does its best to control the lives of all of us..... Justice, Freedom, and liberty will unite us in the struggle against violence. When I stand by your side I do it not because I simply love you, but all of my brothers and sisters in the Global Community, and I feel their pain and with this privilege I promise to do my best to liberate us all...
Vivaviva Palestina, toronto ontario
05/17/10 12:09 AM EST
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Confused
As a gay man apprehensive of a Harper conservative government that shows increasing signs of discomfort if not outright hostility towards the gay community, Pride continues to be an important display of political strength even in its new unsavoury corporate form. Conservatives have embraced a blind pro-Israel agenda as part of their ideology and are no longer honest brokers in the Middle East. I like to think that gay Israeli and Palestinians are united by their queer humanity, no matter what we think in Canada. How this prickly issue has found its way to sow discord in the gay community is very suspect to me. I guess if we are too busy arguing about this we will forget that they have cut off Pride funding. A win/win for conservatives; discredit Pride and deflect attention from the anti-gay agenda. Nevertheless, Toronto queers have fought hard against censorship and in favour of inclusion and open debate. No matter where Ms Sandiland is from or how much she weighs, presented with a difficult issue, it appears that at the very least she used the language of the very same ideologues that questions our existence and are working hard to roll back time. The only "howling" I hear (more like shrieking) is from the "right" about our sinful ways. Pride is and should remain a forum for anyone to express their views within the confines of the law. Ms Sandilands needs to explain her contradictory statements and stop kowtowing to those who have at best, never understood our community. If she has chosen to act on her political bias by sabotaging free expression she should be asked to resign. Expedience should serve principle not supplant it.
Jon, Toronto Ontario
05/17/10 11:52 AM EST
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Shameful Community
Community? Have any of YOU donated cash or volunteer hours to Pride TO to assist organizing YOUR festival. ED Position: Wasn't it advertized for 6 months? The biggest festival in North America is no longer the platform for political issues, it has grown from the community event of 5 years ago. Festival vs. Event? Why call for Sandilands' resignation when she is only the spokesperson for the board? Why aren't you attacking the board for their decisions and policies? They created this mess! Activism vs. hate speech? Apartheid = racism?
Sara Kerr, Toronto Ontario
05/17/10 12:33 PM EST
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I will NOT
be shamed by you Sara Kerr or anyone remotely like you. It's one thing to "advertise" it's entirely another to actually recruit the best candidate.
tim, toronto on
05/17/10 12:41 PM EST
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volunteering for Pride
Have we given cash to Pride?? Why should there be a demand on us that we should donate cash to Pride? I thought the whole reason for giving in to corporate sponsorship is so that we don't have to worry about that kind of thing. In line with that, volunteering for Pride is UNPAID -- not everyone can afford to take time out of their schedule to do unpaid work. Again, Pride should be there to support the community, not the other way around.
Sav., Toronto ON
05/17/10 12:58 PM EST
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The lesson here folks...
... is that being gay doesn't make you less of a racist bigot.
Glen, Toronto Ontario
05/17/10 1:18 PM EST
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Re. Shameful Community
I agree with you Sara Kerr, it's a mess. All volunteers are honorable, but the Board and Staff must all go!
Ryan, Toronto Ontario
05/17/10 3:33 PM EST
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They lied
This is no longer about QuAIA. This is about Pride lying to the community. A community that ran to Pride's aid when it thought it was under attack only to learn it had been secretly working to comply and ban QuAIA all along. And much worse, they'd been working under advisement from a Conservative lobby firm - Navigator Ltd. - they paid $10,000 to help them with their deceit. Navigator, with all its connections to the Conservative government, couldn't even help them with the federal funding issue.
Rachel, Toronto Ontario
05/17/10 3:58 PM EST
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Perfect hearing
Cecilia Tang, Jeff, etc... are you deaf? I have excellent here and I can hear brick by brick, wall by wall in the video, so how can it "clearly" say otherwise. You read the subtitles... and it "clearly said" ... did you even try to listen to it clearly. Gladstone's video itself shows that they did not say that if you actually hear it carefully... put the volume up... get your hearing aids... and close your eyes! Or do you have an agenda? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQjqOh320VA
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/17/10 5:12 PM EST
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racism it is
Peter, it is racism because if Gaza and the West Bank were full of Jewish people, everyone who now turns a blind eye to what is happenning to Palestinians and supports the state of Israel, would be against whichever group did this to jewish people. This evident because while jewish Israelis do not have to deal with the miserable conditions that the paletinians have to live under, they argue that the jewish israeli are the victims. Imagine if they had to live like the palestinians, then they would really be the victims here. I would be defending Jewish people if they were the ones being treated like the palestinians... the bias makes them racist. It is evident... it isn't just that people disagree with me. You can't measure the suffering of two peoples in such an equal manner and not be a racist. And... if you look at the video, yes... it uses footage from other protests, including San Francisco 2009. That is what a bunch of manipulating liars the pro-Israel, Gladstone-led bunch are. Did you not read "San Francisco 2009" on those posters or are some of you short on the visual perception scale?
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/17/10 5:21 PM EST
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Not just here
If the pro-Israel group is trying to censor QaIA and any kind of criticism of Israel it seems that parents at an Israeli school would rather have their kids join the IDF and fight the Palestinains than open dialogue about the suffering of war. I personally don't understand them... who wants this for their kids? What does this say about being peaceful and wanting peace? http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/high-school-bans-israeli-palestinian-dialogue-group-due-to-parents-pressure-1.290741
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/17/10 5:31 PM EST
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@ Zezi I'm not a racist and funny
I don't support either side and I think BOTH SIDES should be banned and you seem to be blinded by this position. I fail to see how a Middle Eastern War has anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada or Pride(no answer and people can't answer this question) Zezi what happens to the Palestinians is a crime and Palestinian Queers should enjoy equal rights in their own society is not Israel's fault since Queer Palestinians are govern by Hamas and the Palestinian National Authority(all democratically elected by Palestinians as the far left screams all the time.) If this is a rights issue then they should be bringing it up with them they are the legal government of the Palestinians but you seem to be blinded by this. Also I do know what Israel does and its also a crime but it is also not Apartheid, countries such as Russia, Sudan, China and even the United States does the same and they are not labeled that for their actions. We don't live in a perfect world we never have and never will. This is only opening up another front in this war that started during the crusades and I don't think it going to make it end but spread the fighting outside the Middle East and Zezi, about the video anyone who seen it can easy tell that was from last year pride and not San Francisco. Also the only racists I'm seeing are the Pro Israel and Pro Palestinians forces here. They seem to be blaming each other for this mess and yet seem to be spreading their war out side of the Middle East not finding any solutions.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/17/10 5:52 PM EST
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what peter said
Inviting waring factions (literally) into the Pride parade is hardly a recipe for bringing our community together.
Ryan, Toronto ON
05/17/10 9:31 PM EST
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RE : ZEZI
Having read your response to my comments on the Vancouver section of this newspaper, I've easily come to the conclusion that you're a very angry person. Some of the personal attacks you've directed at others ( here in the Toronto section ) have me feeling embarrassed for you - since it would seem that you have little self-respect for yourself. Your assertion about me looking at naked men and not noticing the politics in the Pride parades I've seen over the years tells me where your mind must be. Other than people marching in response to the lack of AIDS funding in the early years of the disease, the Parades have been fairly non-politically focused since about the mid-eighties, through the 90's and into the 2000's. Just so you know (because your knowledge seems limited) Pride Parades began as a political protest and as I've noted above, turned to be more of a celebration from the mid 80's onward. Here's hoping that you might decide to work towards letting your anger go and enjoy future Pride Parades for what they now are - AN ENJOYABLE AFTERNOON FOR ALL. One last thing, some have mentioned that the parades have become too commercial. I tend to agree with that view, however, I'd rather see banks & various chain stores join us rather than ignoring us. Just a thought.
Jeff Taylor, Toronto Ontario
05/17/10 9:59 PM EST
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I still think a protest demonstration is warranted
This could have all been handled so, so differently. And Pride Toronto should be held accountable for that. That's why I suggested some kind of action from within the community, which could include an in-the-street large-scale anti-censorship protest march, something Xtra could even potentially sponsor (scratch my pitchfork reference made in anger earlier...). And yes, it should go without saying this has nothing to do with anyone's body type; what a horrible thing that was to read.
Shawn Syms, Toronto ON
05/17/10 10:23 PM EST
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Gays are not a door mat
Re: Glen's comment above - If a homophobic religious or ethnic group believes that gays don't deserve equal rights, I don't accept the proposition that gays are "racist" or "bigoted" if we criticize their homophobia.
Joe, Toronto Ontario
05/17/10 11:50 PM EST
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Please give it a rest / part 1
No one actually has a right to participate in the Pride parade. The event belongs to Pride Toronto who are a not-for-profit association acting as trustees for the entire local gay community, most of whom could care less about Israeli-Palestinian relations, and they have the right to edit it and regulate it just as Xtra has the right to regulate and edit what goes into Xtra. Putting together a big parade like this is not easy because you need to satisfy hundreds of donors, thousands of volunteers, and hundreds of thousands of spectators. It is basically a gay celebration with a bit of gay marketing to the straight community and a bit of gay protest about things which are generally important to the local gay community. What Pride Toronto is doing is not censorship and is really a form of editing and it is no less liberal in its editorial policies than Xtra which itself has never published a single square inch on the very complex matter of Israeli-Palestinian relations and which has never given a single square inch of free advertising space to QuAIA. However no one seems to complain about this apparent "censorship" which Xtra itself applies to this issue. We cannot expect Pride Toronto to include in its parade groups and issues which do not interest other major local gay organizations such as Xtra. As for Ms Sandilands she is really doing a quite good job of revitalizing Pride Toronto with outreach to local non-Anglo gays and to the wider global gay community. The main problem which some xenophobic Anglo-Torontonians seem to have with her and the people running Pride Toronto is that they are NOSOPs (Not Our Sort Of People). There are 350,000+ gay people in Toronto and most of these are non-Anglo and most are still very much in the closet. None of this ethnic and cultural diversity is reflected in Xtra or in the gay village.
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
05/20/10 3:22 PM EST
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Please give it a rest / part 2
There is very much a kind of local informal apartheidism which shuts these people out and if you actually talk to them and listen to them you hear this message very loud and clear. Pride Toronto and Xtra and the other mainstream local gay organizations really need to do more outreach and persuade more of these people to come out of their various ethnic closets and to participate more openly in the mainstream gay community. Please give this issue a rest and try to focus more on connecting and engaging with these ethnic gay people and coaxing them out of their closets.
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
05/20/10 3:26 PM EST
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but that's the point
Yours truly, you talk about reaching out to the "non-Anglo gay community"... first I would point out that even there you seem to be overlooking, for example the non-Anglo lesbian and trans communities, both of which are equally important. Second I would point out that Pride's focus on corporate needs (not community needs) and the desires of outside pressure groups has lead it to _equally_ sideline events like Blockorama as well as QuAIA. The point is that in both cases they are not looking to the community and asking what the community wants, they are looking to a PR firm (Navigator) and corporations and asking what they need. Various members of the community should work together and demand that Pride be accountable to our community. What we shouldn't do is turn against each other, and say one group has more validity than another group, because then we would end up being the ones to tear down our own community.
Sav., Toronto ON
05/20/10 6:13 PM EST
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re: Jeff and Yours Truly
Jeff I'm angry too about the way QuAIA has been smeared and treated by some in the community, so what if zezi expresses her anger more. You're wrong by the way there has always been a political component to Pride, have you ever been to a Toronto Pride march and watched the entire thing? It doesn't sound like it, its true there hasn't been a controversial political group in some time before QuAIA came along but just because its politics no questions doesn't mean it isn't political. Yours Truly Pride Ins may own the name but the march is the communities and always has been, when was the march bought by Pride Inc? How much did they pay for it? no its always been a community event and still is, I imagine you have a hard time imagining something that isn't owned by anyone, that just reflects your failure of imagination and refusal to acknowledge reality. Comparing Pride Inc to Xtra is a false analogy, Xtra treats all of its advertisers the same, they don't single anyone out because they don't like their politics, Pride Inc. is not treating all of the groups participating the same and is singling out QuAIA because they don't like their politics and is lying to the community about it as well. Pride Inc has clearly lost touch with the community, Xtra has not.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/20/10 6:29 PM EST
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Examples ?
Rich, if your truly believe in the point(s) your making, we'd like to see some actual examples of these political floats in the Pride parade lets say in the last 10 years or so. Examples Rich ? And not any of the AIDS related ones that I already made mention of in my original comments either.
Jeff Taylor, Toronto Ontario
05/21/10 12:58 AM EST
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Examples = sure, but irrelevant
Political parties and politicians - provincially and federally - have participated in the Pride parade many times. They are, by definition, "political." But so what? Being "political" is not a valid reason for excluding anybody. The only criteria are: (1) being either part or supportive of the LGBT community; and, (2) being law-abiding (e.g., lawful freedom of expression which, according to the Supreme Court of Canada, includes political speech). In other words: It wouldn't matter if we deemed QuAIA the only "political" group in the parade. As a part of the LGBT community that is law-abiding, there is absolutely no reasonable (or legal) justification for excluding QuAIA. That would be censorship - and I'm pretty sure we live in a democracy where we are fortunate to be exposed to a diversity of opinions, even if we happen to disagree with some of them. That's life. That's democracy. Embrace it. Censorship erodes democracy - and our collective intelligence.
Rick, London Ontario
05/21/10 3:54 AM EST
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Further Example
Pride, 2007: "We Will Not Be Silenced." Eight men dressed in black cloaks and cowls, looking vaguely like grim reapers, holding the flags of eight nations where homosexuals are persecuted. The countries were Russia, Belaruse, Jamaica, Nigeria, Honduras, Iran, Pakistan and Sri Lanka... Sure, it was political, but Pride still remained "an enjoyable afternoon for all." Somehow, it failed to stir up the "I'm Alright, Jack" types who are kicking up such a fuss today.
Balthasar, Toronto Ontario
05/21/10 10:58 AM EST
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Way To Go PT!
I support the city and I'm happy to hear PT is banning this divisive group. Mid-East politics has no place at Toronto Pride, especially when the country QAIA protests supports LGBTs. Party on!
Parker, Toronto ON
05/22/10 12:49 PM EST
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We should never give in to threats
Let's not allow disagreements on the Israeli/Palestinian issue to distract us from the real issue: the Pride Committee has given in to the bullying and threats of a well-known homophobe Giorgio Mammoliti, who promised to cut off funding from the city if they did not. Give in to a threat like this once, and you can be sure they'll use it again. What will he and his homophobic allies on city council demand we ban next year?
Val, Toronto ON
05/22/10 6:48 PM EST
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Hate is not a Family Value
The gay community has often said "Hate is not a family value" to counter bigots who hated gays. The pride parade was founded not on free speech, but on the acceptance and basic rights for gays. Pride is not the forum for international political conflicts. Gay pride has always been a forum of acceptance of all people and not a forum for hate mongering against anyone. Pride was not founded on hate but on acceptance, and it does not matter whether you or I agree or disagree with any group that happens to be gay, if they want to push current political issues that are not gay oriented, it should not be in pride.
Martin Campbell, Toronto Ontario
05/24/10 11:53 AM EST
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Apartheid is hate
Apartheid is hate. Apartheid breeds hate. LGBT people living under apartheid suffer immensely. Thus, Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) -- an LGBT group -- opposes apartheid because the group opposes hate and seeks to liberate LGBT people from hate. QuAIA is anti-hate. QuAIA campaigns for LGBT rights. QuAIA is a group of LGBT people. QuAIA engages in lawful political speech. Banning QuAIA, or the words that it uses, is censorship. Censorship is unacceptable. We live in a democracy, remember?
Rick, Toronto Ontario
05/24/10 12:13 PM EST
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Rick you don't care about Gay Palestinian do you?
Again Rick you are just repeating yourself. Israel does have a strong LGBT community and they also support the rights of LGBT people in Palestine since they live under Hamas and the Palestinian National Authority who are don't give a dam about about their rights. This is not Israel problem when the Palestinians government does not care about their rights and blaming Israel is not going to make it any better for Gay Palestinians since the Palestinian Government( the democratically elected governments of Hamas and Palestinians National Authority) are the ones they need to take this issue here. Again Israel does have a really strong LGBT community unlike Apartheid South Africa ever had and they also care about the rights of Gay Palestinians deeply. Funny it just sounds like you want to bring this war into our community and again you or anyone can't seem to tell anyone How does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? (both sides please answer this) and Rick ignoring this just proves that you have a wider political agenda then caring about the rights of Gay Palestinians under Hamas or the Palestinian National Authority . You don't care about their rights but like the Palestinians leadership or the Israel Lobby just want to use their suffering to Human suffering to advance to political agenda here in Toronto. Funny you started out saying this was about the Rights of Gay Palestinians but its clearly not, just wanting to import a foreign war in our community and telling people to take sides and using the right of Gay Palestinians as a cover. I really can't understand what human being would do that? and real humans don't use human suffering to advance their political cause. Real Humans will find solutions such as bring both sides together and not making more front lines in this war
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/24/10 12:49 PM EST
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RE: Martin Campbell
"The pride parade was founded not on free speech, but on the acceptance and basic rights for gays." The two were and are inseparable. Without the freedom to express ourselves, we never would have achieved even, as you say, the most basic rights for gays. If in 1980, the powers that be had the legal ability to prevent us from protesting, you don't think they would have used it? There, quite simply, would be no gay rights movement without the freedoms of expression and assembly. It's honestly disappointing to me that people can't or won't see that.
I was there, Toronto ON
05/24/10 12:57 PM EST
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@ Rick say Censorship is unacceptable.
True ,but it works both ways here you seem to censoring anyone you disagrees with you and are doing anything in your power to do so. But when this started you said this was about the rights of Gay Palestinians and this has turn into more about the Israel then the rights of Gay Palestinians living under Hamas or the Palestinian National Authority. Funny so which is it? the Rights of Gay Palestinians (clearly using as a cover) or Israel. ?You keep on changing the topic from the Rights of Gay Palestinians to Israel(not Israeli Queers, the State). Funny I find it funny every time you scream Apartheid this is like screaming WITCH in Salem, Massachusetts in 1692, just like screaming WITCH and the odd part was the victims in that case were all victims of a little acting and half truths, funny how that is repeating itself in 21st century Canada
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/24/10 1:06 PM EST
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The Big Snit
Hello, Planet Earth calling Xtra in Cloud Cuckoo Land:- Is anyone there? Please give this non-issue a rest and get off Pride Toronto’s case. Pride Toronto is not doing anything different from Xtra. No one has a right to be published in Xtra and no one has a right to march in the Pride parade. Xtra has never given a square inch of space to exploring the very complex issue of Israeli-Palestinian relations and has never given QuAIA any free space to promote its views on this subject because obviously these do not contribute to its focus on gay issues. Pride Toronto has just as much right to edit and regulate its parade to keep it properly focused on gay issues and gay pride as does Xtra. Suppose someone started a group called “Queers Against Chinese Exchange-Rate Policy” (QuACERP). This issue is very important to everyone in the global economy but it is not a specifically gay issue and no one would insist that it be allowed to march in the Pride parade. The real issue here for Xtra is that Pride Toronto has been taken over by NOSOPs(Not Our Sort Of People) and Xtra, wallowing in its usual Anglo-Torontonian xenophobia, has been in a Big Snit over this for some time. How dare those uppity immigrants from Pizzastan and Samosaland and refugees from Upper Duckwater come in here and take over! Get used to it sweetie. Immigrant energy increasingly drives this city. You either plug in and connect with that immigrant energy or become increasing stodgy and irrelevant. There are so many lovely full-color gay magazines out there and Xtra still clings to its crappy newsprint tabloid format which is about as appealing as a smelly old cigar butt. Pride Toronto is doing a good job and trying out useful new ideas and trying to connect with highly closeted gay immigrant community and with the greater global gay community because that is where the future is. Please stop hassling them and get with it and do more of the same yourselves.
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
05/27/10 3:26 PM EST
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