Pride Toronto and QuAIA ignore Mammoliti ultimatum
TORONTO NEWS / Mayoral candidate will lead charge to yank Pride funding
Scott Dagostino / Toronto / Thursday, April 29, 2010
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Toronto city councillor and mayoral candidate Giorgio Mammoliti
It’s Zero Hour for Pride Toronto — at least according to Toronto city councillor and mayoral candidate Giorgio Mammoliti, who tried to reignite the debate over the parade’s inclusion of Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) by issuing the Palestinian rights protest group an ultimatum that both QuAIA and Pride have now ignored.

“I’m giving them 24 hours,” Mammoliti told Xtra yesterday, “I’ll give ‘em till midnight tonight. If they [QuAIA] don’t withdraw from the parade, I’ll be drafting up a motion at the next city council meeting asking to get rid of the funding this year completely and any resources that are associated with it. If we’ve already given any money to the parade, we’ll be asking for it back.”

With the deadline now passed, Pride Toronto has not publicly responded to Mammoliti’s edict, which was announced as Mammoliti struggles to turn the page on a controversial plan to equip bylaw officers with firearms.

In March, Pride Toronto announced a plan to vet all signs at the parade through a “freedom of expression policy.” That was met with outrage from appalled artists and activists. They revoked the plan, and since then, Pride Toronto has remained largely silent on the issue, meeting behind closed doors with city officials. Given such tension, why did Mammoliti feel the need to rush a time limit?

“I’m a mayoral candidate and as a mayoral candidate, I need to be stepping up to the plate and giving my views as well,” he says, “I’m very uncomfortable with a group like this alienating Israelis in this city, and I don’t think the taxpayers should be funding any organization that promotes clear discrimination against any one group.”

In a press release yesterday, Avi Benlolo, president and CEO of Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies, commended the push to “deny funding to Pride unless it is willing to comply with the City’s anti-discrimination guidelines.”

Pride Toronto’s parade entry form already includes a promise to abide by the city’s anti-discrimination policy.

Mammoliti’s move was championed by fellow candidates Rocco Rossi, Sarah Thompson and Rob Ford.

Mammoliti admits he has never spoken to any member of Queers Against Israel Apartheid, but he says he has a good sense based on those who’ve contacted him.

“I have looked at every single email that has come my way from both sides,” and insists that “anti-Israeli sentiments have come out.”

Asked if he can provide Xtra with such emails, however, Mammoliti says, “You should talk to the Jewish community itself and recognize how they’re feeling right now. If you have, you’ll know they’re uncomfortable with this whole thing and are encouraging the city to do exactly what I’m suggesting.”

Tim McCaskell, educator, author and member of QuAIA, argues that “comfort” is not a valid reason for censoring legitimate political activism.

“Pride has always made some people uncomfortable,” he says. “If we allow bureaucrats and politicians to ban a group from Pride because it makes some people ‘uncomfortable,’ what’s to stop homophobes from complaining that the whole parade makes them uncomfortable? Will the City threaten funding to placate them too?”

Mammoliti rejects this “slippery slope” argument but, given the hypothetical example of an anti-Catholic group burning the pope in effigy, admits he might ban that group too.

“Possibly, yes, then I may be doing the same thing, but we’re talking about anti-Semitics right now. Anything that accepts city grants to spread this kind of message is wrong. The Pride parade is supposed to be about stopping the hatred. And I think [QuAIA’s presence] is encouraging it to some degree.”
 
However, McCaskell scoffs at Mammoliti’s zeal for fighting discrimination.

“I’ve been a gay activist long enough to remember when Mammoliti argued in Parliament against same-sex equality legislation on the grounds that our ‘body parts don’t fit together,’“ says McCaskell.

He’s referring to an infamous speech then-MPP Mammoliti made when the NDP-led Ontario government debated legislation for same-sex spousal benefits in 1994 — a paranoid rant conflating the adoption of children, polygamy, S&M and sex toys in a future society a century from now. His vision was met with heckling from his own caucus, leading him to weakly declare, “I am not a gay basher,” before crossing the floor to the Liberal party.

Now, he says, “I have learned from my past mistakes...what better voice than my voice to be saying this based on my past mistakes?”

“That’s a little rich,” says Rick Telfer, sociology grad student and creator of a Facebook page protesting Pride Toronto’s now-revoked expression policy. “To be apologizing for your homophobic past at the same time you’re sowing divisions within the lesbian, gay, bi and trans community? How can anybody take him seriously?”

McCaskell piles on, saying QuAIA “won’t be shaken by threats from a homophobe desperate for attention.”

Mammoliti shrugs it off.

“I’m not going to keep apologizing for what I did 20 years ago. I’ve already done that and if people can’t move on, so be it.”

Going into work at Metro Hall today, he says, “I’ll be writing up the resolution that will be going to council to withdraw the funding for this year, along with any resources... the police officers, the clean-up, all that stuff.”

City council doesn't meet again until Tuesday, May 11.

If Pride Toronto ultimately loses its city funding, Mammoliti says don’t blame him.

“It’s the organizers. They’re the ones who have to make this decision. In fact, they don’t even have to — it could be the group itself, withdrawing from the parade. It’s all I’m asking.”

George Smitherman, for his part, issued a statement to Xtra late yesterday condemning QuAIA but stopping short of saying that the city should pull its funding.

“The idea that Pride should be a willing host for anyone to show up and project whatever they want is foolish,” writes Smitherman. “Let’s let Pride be about the lesbian, gay, bi and trans community and not stand by and let it be hijacked by this issue or that.”

The frequently used word in this debate sets Telfer off on a rant.

“Talk about hijacking!” he says. “It’s not that Queers Against Israeli Apartheid is hijacking the parade. One could easily use the same word to describe the level of corporate influence over the parade — not to mention the number of straight pundits and politicians trying to define for our community what Pride is about.”

--with files from Marcus McCann


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Reader Comments


 
Bigot
Mammoliti is a bigot. You can tell from his responses that he doesn't care at all about the families he has harmed. I don't see why anyone pays him any attention.
Randy, Windsor ON
04/29/10 11:52 AM EST
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We don't ban marchers or censor placards
Mammoliti is not the least bit credible on LGBT issues. Like Tim M I remember his homphobic rants on gays in the debate in the 90's when he voted against this own party's motion to include same sex benefits. More importantly though, city hall politicians (including all of City Council or mayoral candidates) should not be involved in who marches or doesn't march in the parade. As long as the placards and chants are within the law it has nothing to do with the city. Nor should Pride Toronto reconsider its reconsideration (having abandoned the foolish idea of an "ethics committee" and censoring participants). I am not a member of QuAIA but I support their right to march as a LGBT group in the event (many political groups march or are welcomed to march including those in favour of Israeli Palestinian policies). We don't ban marchers in our LGBT march/parade or censor legal albeit controversial (or even commercial) placards.
james Dubro, toronto ontario
04/29/10 12:12 PM EST
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Feeling "uncomfortable"
Feeling "uncomfortable" is not a valid reason to censor political speech. How exactly QuAIA's opinion regarding Israel's domestic policies vis-a-vis Palestinians "discriminatory." If QuAIA were actually guilty of of the crimes they have been accused of, then charges would have been pressed by now. Instead, we have the bullying presence of pro-Israeli interests trying to censor legitimate, if "uncomfortable" speech in a parade that is at its heart deeply political. Mammoliti, Rossi, Thompson, Ford and Smitherman are being complete slimeballs by making hay over this issue - none has the fortitude to actually stand up for Canadian values and the actual law.
Dan, Toronto ON
04/29/10 12:25 PM EST
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He Likes To Dig His Own Grave
Giorgio Mammoliti is a fool and nothing more. This guy thinks he stands a chance in the election this year. Even time this fool opens his mouth he sticks his foot in it. He has done a bad job as city official and he would do worst as major. I am glad the people in Toronto can see through him and will not elected him for anything...Mammoliti has never done thing for gay pride in this city unless it makes him look good....Giorgio pack your bags your out of here.......
Danny St James, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 12:41 PM EST
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A Group that will make Pride Prideful Again!
http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=113025575395588&ref=ts
roy, Toronto ON
04/29/10 12:43 PM EST
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Not with my tax dollars!
Perhaps we should have a group marching to demand the expulsion of Muslims with chants of "go home Muslim terrorists!" Should that also be allowed? Yes - freedom of speech is important, but so are the guidelines of the Pride Parade. The anti-semites need to find another place to express their disgusting views and they will NOT be supported by my tax dollars!
David, Toronto ont
04/29/10 1:24 PM EST
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anti jewish or anti muslim chants=illegal,immoral
Wrong David--no slogans of hate against a group is legal and what you suggest is both illegal and immoral. Anti-muslims chants is disgusting as would be anti Jewish placards or chants. This is a group commenting on certain policies of one government (not a people) and I am sure there will be some anti-Uganda government signs too as well as other homophobic human rights violations in the world (including Iran or muslim-run governments/countries ) . And no tax dollars are funding as such any signs or groups marching (thankfully) though commercial dollars are funding some. At the moment I believe Pride T the guidelines are being followed by all. Police can arrest those who break the law against hate crimes or inciting hatred, but otherwise various protests placards/groups are fine in the march/parade as they have always been. It has always been so (even with nudists openly marching for years).
james Dubro, toronto ontario
04/29/10 1:48 PM EST
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Pride Toronto should grow a pair
It's taken 50 years for the mainstream gay community to build bridges and relationships with the rest of Canadian society. Today, kids are still jumping off bridges because the work isn't finished. Meanwhile, this fringe group of a handful of people is destroying that trust and understanding, through a point of view so rarefied and a message so vulgar that even Queen's Park took the time to criticize it. They don't even represent us. There's no-one on the Pride board even remotely associated with them (precisely because they are indeed nobodies). So why are they being allowed to ruin Pride with their message of HATE? With the Conservatives on Parliament Hill, we need to be reinforcing our alliance with the rest of liberal Canada, not destroying it.
William, Montreal QC
04/29/10 2:50 PM EST
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When will we learn!!!!!!
I am sick and tired of all this crap...you have your black's that want to have special right you have Jews that want special right you have French that want special right....everyone has their hand out for a special right....if you think about it that is what is wrong with this world....we are not gays we are not straight we are not black we are not Jewish we are not yellow skin or red...we are humans and that is what we need to focus on this bullshit of knocking down one race or another has gotten us no where...we have not learned with World War one or two or Vietnamese war or any other conflict...we are the dummies and stupidest and poethetic thing on this planet....maybe it is time this planet was nuked so it can start over....as for sure we all and I mean all should be a shame of ourselves we only see differences we do not see the person the people......
DJ, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 3:12 PM EST
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Let's move on and celebrate peacefully
I wish people would leave there political views at home and not in our parade.If the pride parade organizers had some ball's and to make a fucking decision this mess would of been over month's ago. Pull these radical people out of the parade before they fuck it all up with everyone pulling out leaving no financial support for our parade. Gay people have enough problem's and struggles to deal with rather than having to deal with these types of people with there own agenda. Stop pooping on our parade and let's celebrate our culture and acceptance!!
Jeff, Etobicoke ontario
04/29/10 3:17 PM EST
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Silencio! Il Duce speaks!
I, Giorgio the Great, King of Pizzastan (aka Ward 7 (York West)) hereby order all the no-goods at QuAIA out of town by sundown or I will personally run them out of town myself with my own army of enforcers armed with high-velocity peashooters and self-propelled chicken cannons! Also, I want everyone to know that I am not really a gay-basher and it is pure coincidence that I happen to enjoy bashing gays for fun and political advantage. Il Duce has spoken! Let there be applause and rejoicing in the streets as He imparts his immense wisdom to us!
Yours Truly, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 3:39 PM EST
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QuAIA bad, Coulter good?
Interesting how the right goes out of their way to defend Coulter's hateful mocking of Muslims but then turn around and demand QuAIA be censored not for mocking Jews, which they don't do, but for merely criticizing Israeli policies. And all, apparently, because it makes some uncomfortable? How does that make any sense? I could see if QuAIA used hate speech that they should be banned but they don't. If Pride has to be comfortable for everyone its doomed. If a queer group gets banned because some disagree with them and find their message uncomfortable then Pride will definitely be on a downward slope and lose a sense of legitimacy among many in the LGBT community for allowing censorship. The concept of free speech has helped LGBT folk a lot over the years, we attack it at our own peril in my opinion. Much better to lose the funding but still hold our heads high. I think it'd be easier to replace the funding than to regain credibility when it comes to community values. If QuAIA resorted to hate speech then I'd fully support banning them but I just don't see that happening. The funny thing if there wasn't such an effort to censor them then I'm sure most of us wouldn't have remembered QuAIA from the parade last year let alone read/hear their message, I know I wouldn't have at least, actually I still don't remember them in the parade but I've seen video of them marching. Hearing about the attempts to ban them made me interested in seeing how bad they were for myself but I couldn't find any reason to support banning them at all. By trying to censor them they've done more for QuAIA than they could ever have done for themselves, become a household name. I'm sure traffic on their website is way up too. In a way it won't matter that much to QuAIA if they do get banned since that will only drive up interest in them some more.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 4:50 PM EST
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Ann Coulter really??
I remember Ann Coulter was force to cancel Rich because the University of Ottawa gave into another loons that did not want free speech either(from the left) funny isn't it and I think withdrawing Pride funding is too extreme because of one group who does not represent the community as a whole but if this is a freedom of expression by the Ann Coulter example its maybe a good lesson that it does go both ways(left or right) and its really funny when a Jewish Group such as of Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies commended cutting Pride funding , If I remember the QuAIA attack and blamed the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center on this freedom of expression issue but they came to our defense on this issue very interesting. (http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Jewish_group_pushes_Pride_Toronto_to_condemn_antiIsrael_hate_groups-8385.aspx)
Peter, Toronto ON
04/29/10 5:42 PM EST
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xtra needs a little unbiased journalism
Wow. Reading some of the featured articles is hard. I'd like some news concerning the LGBTTIQQ2SA community in my city, and yet I get smacked in the face with this unbelievably biased article. Can I make a facebook page and be quoted? If I have a page that says "I bet this banana can get more fans than QuAIA" do I get into an article on xtra? Maybe make my own "news" website with an article heading such as "Does xtra.ca suck hard? Please god, don't suck so hard xtra.ca". Yea, I think so. It would be as credible as THIS garbage.
Bob, Toronto ON
04/29/10 6:06 PM EST
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What is this... NOW Magazine?
Even though you work for a paper that gets published regardless of the content, doesn't mean you need to ignore journalistic integrity. How about a facebook group that petitions your publisher?
Bob, Toronto ON
04/29/10 6:12 PM EST
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where the bias?
Bob, I'd be interested in knowing in what ways do you see this story being biased? It seems fairly balanced to me, it had Mammoliti's side of it and QuAIA's side too. Should they have covered someone else's point of view too? If so who? Or do see a problem with having QuAIA give their point of view? btw you hardly got "smacked in the face" with the article, it didn't stand out that much at all and you could have easily not read it if you didn't want to, or did you even read it? If you don't like xtra.ca why do you read it?
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 6:26 PM EST
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Re: Rich
Rich, I wouldn't really have a problem if the links to articles favorable to 'a position' weren't in a different size font. Why is that? I also would like to hear from someone in an article with actual credentials, rather than some nobody who starts a facebook group, to comment on a relevant issue within my community. I would love it if there were other sources covering the goings-on in the LGBTTIQQ2SA community other than xtra.ca/xtra, but we don't have many other serious sources. This (xtra) has turned out to be a real disappointment time and time again :( . I understand that in this day and age it's hard to run a print edition of anything, but all I ask is that those who have the keys to the kingdom is that they report on new happenings in a fair and balanced way. What happened to Block-o-rama? What happened to Cyndi Lauper on The Apprentice? If xtra isn't biased, why do they keep fixating this?
Bob, Toronto ON
04/29/10 6:41 PM EST
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Nice send off...
The frequently used word in this debate sets Telfer off on a rant. “Talk about hijacking!” he says. “It’s not that Queers Against Israeli Apartheid is hijacking the parade. One could easily use the same word to describe the level of corporate influence over the parade — not to mention the number of straight pundits and politicians trying to define for our community what Pride is about.”
Bob, Toronto ON
04/29/10 6:49 PM EST
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its significant news
Bob I don't think xtra.ca is so much fixated as simply reporting significant news for the Toronto community. The fact that some councilors and the city are threatening to remove funding from Pride if they don't ban QuAIA is news whether you like hearing about it or not. I gather the guy who created the Facebook group was interviewed as a representative of those opposed to censorship but not a member of QuAIA. Xtra definitely has an editorial policy in favour of free speech and against censorship as shown by these unmoderated comment sections and past editorial stances concerning different issues including the problems with Canada Border Services banning gay films, both porn and PG13 stuff and targeting gay and lesbian bookstores. Free speech has long been an issue in its various incarnations, this is just the latest battle except there are some within the LGBT community trying to get funding removed from Pride over this issue too, its not just the wider society any more though judging from the comments in a recent Toronto Sun article about the issue it was clear there was still a large number of folks who thought Pride should get no funding because queers are "disgusting", QuAIA wasn't an issue for those folks at all, if anything it was just one more item on a very long list of theirs why Pride should at the least get no money and preferably would be canceled completely. Granted it would be nice if there was more news covered more often, on that I agree with you.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/29/10 7:58 PM EST
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Freedom of expression includes political speech
SUPREME COURT OF CANADA, 2004: "Political speech [...] is the single most important and protected type of expression. It lies at the core of the guarantee of free expression [...]. The right of the people to discuss and debate ideas forms the very foundation of democracy [...]. For this reason, the Supreme Court of Canada has assiduously protected the right of each citizen to participate in political debate."
Rick, London Ontario
04/29/10 8:25 PM EST
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@Rick
Really Rick? in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms its states clear under Equality Rights that (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability. when your group attacks Israelis or Jews and Rick I've seen in other stories related to this that Rick from London Ontario blames Orthodox Jews, Jewish Groups and targets a country and its citizens which under the Charter applies and so does the Canadian Human Rights Act under Discriminatory Practices under section 3. the prohibited grounds of discrimination are race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, family status, disability and conviction for which a pardon has been granted and the t.(http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/H-6/page-2.html#anchorbo-ga:l_I-gb:s_5) but Freedom of Expression ends at discrimination and usually the people are discriminating in some form or another use the same card but since the QuAIA target seems to be a country the national origin part applies here and this is discrimination even if the QuAIA seems to think to be somehow above these laws and it applies to all Gay Straight, Black or White and even if you like it or not.
Peter, Toronto ON
04/29/10 8:50 PM EST
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How to address violations of the law
Peter: First of all, the Charter is supreme; it is part of the Canadian Constitution. Second, the Canadian Human Rights Act deals with "discriminatory practices" NOT political speech; for a full list, see: http://tinyurl.com/2bnwdon -- and, if you care to do so, cite the relevant sections that you think apply, including specific examples of QuAIA's alleged violations. Lastly, if you think QuAIA has engaged in any form of "hate," then there's an easy solution: CALL THE POLICE; for more information, see: http://tinyurl.com/27snw22 ... Oh, and LET ME KNOW HOW THAT WORKS OUT FOR YOU, Mr. Censorious.
Rick, London Ontario
04/29/10 8:57 PM EST
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@Rick
Well Rick the QuAIA did call for Israel to be destroyed but you will won't agree with this and you seem to blame Jews for some reason or another Rick again the Canadian Human Rights Act does define a Hate Crime Here {http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/resources/legislation/canadian_law/federal/human_rights_act/right_act_human_act.cfm} and note that the links brings you back to the Canadian Human Rights Act and Rick this is a Hate Crime and could follow under Section 318: Hate Propaganda and the Definition of "genocide" (2) In this section, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part any identifiable group, namely, under deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction. {http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hatecrimes/} Rick it also states in Section 319 (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty and the QuAIA did call for violent overthrow of Israel at Pride last year unless you still want to say this is freedom of expression it still ends at discrimination also the The Anti-Terrorism Act is clear about this too , section 13 further: it extends the prohibition to hate propaganda communicated by means of a computer, or a group of interconnected or related computers — which includes the Internet, or any similar means of communication. Wow Both the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, The Canadian Human Rights Act and the Anti-Terrorism Act is Violated here and Rick the Police or the RCMP most likely have your hate group under their radar since all these acts are violated and they do the same to other Hate Groups too just another interesting part so I think the need to call the Police is not needed since they most likely are monitoring this hate group and the law is clear Gay or St
Peter, Toronto ON
04/29/10 9:35 PM EST
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Again, there's an easy solution
PETER: First of all, I am not a member of QuAIA. Second, and better yet, why don't you just provide the details of QuAIA's alleged crimes to the police? You can reach the Hate Crimes Unit of the Toronto Police at: 416-808-3500. Again, let me know how that works out for you, Peter!
Rick, London Ontario
04/29/10 9:44 PM EST
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@ Rick
Why Rick? the Canadian hate Crime Laws are clear and the City of Toronto see this and I bet like other groups they will not rat each other out but like other groups the Toronto Police and the RCMP most likely does have this group under their radar anyway so its really a waste of my time making that phone call. Personally I think its rather sad the the QuAIA destroyed a trust between the City and the Gay community which did take 40 years to build and the same could be said about the sponsors who even 20 years ago would not want anything to do with us because of who we are. A bigger crime has been committed here then violating the Laws of Canada. I really think this group has sent Gay Liberation back 40 years and Rick I really laughing when you say your not a member since you seem to be their unofficial spokesperson on everything they do.
Peter, Toronto ON
04/29/10 10:04 PM EST
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So, that settles it...
All these accusations of "hate" and "discrimination," etc. Blah, blah, blah. Yet no laws have been broken, arrests made, or charges laid. And none of the accusers are willing to just phone the police and report the alleged crimes. Yawn. The accusations, therefore, amount to one thing and on thing only: Propaganda -- with the sole intention of silencing legitimate criticism and debate, and tossing freedom of expression, including political speech, out the window. In short: censorship -- the hallmark of an authoritarian regime. Thank goodness we live in Canada!
Rick, London Ontario
04/30/10 1:02 AM EST
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OMG
Really Rick it sounds like you don't like opposition but you sound more like Propaganda then fact and Middle Eastern Wars has no place in Pride or in Canada but just keep on spreading the Hate you seem to be very blinded by it
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 1:29 AM EST
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Typical bully @Peter
As it has been pointed out several times, it's clear that QuAIA's speech has NOT risen to a criminal level, or else charges would have been laid by now - any number of organizations (eg the Canadian Jewish Congress) would certainly have been at the fore if that were the case. It is not. Instead, we have one group bullying the state into censoring the opinions and speech of another group. That is, by definition, censorship. QuAIA is stating their opinions about Israel's domestic policies (which affects LGBT people too.. not all Palestinians are hetero) and marching in a parade that at its core is political. You may not like what they are saying, but calling it discrimination does not make it so. If you think it's hateful to highlight Israel's policies to a broader audience, well, um, tough? It is still protected speech under Canadian law. And this is speaking as a non--member of QuAIA and someone who doesn't agree with a lot of what they're saying either (I find there's lots of hyperbole from both camps)
Dan, Toronto ON
04/30/10 8:26 AM EST
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Um, Bob...
Bob, if you look at the article (the whole article, not just the bits that tie your panties into such a bunch), ALL the links to other stories and sits in the article body are larger than the body text. And bias? Um, you ARE aware that EVERY media organization has a bias, right? In case you haven't noticed, Xtra/PTP has traditionally been very supportive of Free Speech, even (especially!) when that speech is not popular. You might wanna look PTP's Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Triangle_Press .. but I suspect you won't, as complaining is so much easier.
Dan, Toronto ON
04/30/10 8:41 AM EST
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even just one example please
Peter you claim that QuAIA has called for the destruction of Israel and the violent otherthrow of Israel. When did they do this? Where's the evidence? please provide even just one example of QuAIA calling for the destruction of Israel or for violence to be used against Israel let alone it being "overthrown". This is yet again another example of how the Israel lobby makes baesless claims about those they disagree with. QuAIA is not a hate group, has never used hate speech, has never called for the destruction of Israel or for violence to be used against Israel yet the Israel lobby has claimed they've done all those things and more. Its hard to take people seriously when they tell such lies with such regularity.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 12:33 PM EST
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@ Dan @ Rich what Lobby ?
Dan I'm no Bully you people don't like opposition and the Hate Crime laws do apply here there a hit the city cutting pride and they fact that you teabags broke Anti Discrimination laws at Pride out of all places where they could have been broke and Rich you little group did call for the violent overthrow of Israel you idiots were caught on video doing it and your group are in damage control since. Rich what F@$#king lobby are you talking about I don't care about the Middle East but bringing a Middle Eastern War in to Pride when it has nothing to do with gay rights at all just seems your want to bring their hate on both sides into the community and you are the ones that are censorship this issue like not liking opposition or the fact your group has nothing to do with gay rights whats next could I invite the KKK into pride and label it freedom of expression and freedom of speech. I really doubt xtra would even Support that move
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 2:10 PM EST
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Peter = irrational
Peter, like a troll, keeps popping up on these comment sections spouting the same irrational, illogical, and unsubstantiated nonsense. It is utterly pointless to engage with him, apart from the comedic value of eliciting his insanity. QuAIA's purpose and positions are now very clear; it is a peace and human rights group, not a "hate" group. If it is a "hate" group, or if it has broken some laws, then CALL THE POLICE. Otherwise it is plainly obvious that the "hate" label is pure propaganda. As to Peter's question, "[W]hat F@$#king lobby...", the evidence is plentiful and indisputable. See, for example: (1) http://tinyurl.com/2ee7jlj & (2) http://tinyurl.com/25cccab & (3) http://tinyurl.com/2cwlemp
Rick, London Ontario
04/30/10 2:30 PM EST
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PS. On "damage control"
Oops. I forgot to respond to this tidbit of lunacy, although I'm sure my reply will be in vain. Peter wrote: "you little group did call for the violent overthrow of Israel you idiots were caught on video doing it". Of course, here again is an accusation without any evidence. Martin Gladstone's "video," for example, is so muffled and crappy that no reasonable conclusion could be drawn from it. Furthermore, QuAIA has already disputed Gladstone's (deliberately erroneous?) interpretation. See: http://tinyurl.com/25rl7cm
Rick, London Ontario
04/30/10 2:37 PM EST
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@Rick and Rich sound like Ann Coulter
Rick and Rich your the Troll in all of this since your group is rather undemocratic when you try to silence people who oppose you and calling people names is a common tactic of you teabags this is kind of like Rich Ann Coulter example you people silence people you don't agree with but when someone does the same to you teabags you scream violation freedom of Speech and and expression personally even as Gay man I have no problem with Ann Coulter expressing her views it but when the leftest group made the University of Ottawa cancel it it violated the same freedom of Speech and Expression that you teabags always scream time and time again when you violate Anti Discrimination Laws it wonders why the QuAIA is going to be the spoilers of the Party and Rick also I really feel sorry for you when you can't see the hate that your group spews up kind of reminds me of Ann Coulter but at least the same teabags are getting a taste of their own medicine on this one and it seems you really don't like it at all. If you don't like it I think the people who wanted to see Ann Coulter felt the same but at least they were rather civil about.
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 3:07 PM EST
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hmm
Peter, Since you are so sure that QaIA are breaking a law, shouldn't there be due process? I want to see it. And, as a gay man, why are you attacking Pride for not censoring a group, isn't that the indirect way of going about it. If they have broken the law, have them arrested... or fined. What you are is either a stubborn person with little reasoning capacity or someone deliverately lying to us to further your agenda. Stop messing with Pride...take it on yourself to have someone press charges, and if that is not possible... well, I guess that means you have no case.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 5:43 PM EST
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@ Tam
How does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? or even Pride to that matter? or spreading a war to this country? and thinking that a Middle Eastern War that's been happening between Europe and the Islamic World for nearly 1000 years has anything to do with Gay Rights? and this is on the border line of Canada's hate crime laws even if you can't see it or not. Most people who do hate can't see it for themselves and hate isn't just a Straight Matter. People can hold prejudices no matter what the Sexual Orientation is but on the Question of Censorship these groups don't mind silencing people they don't agree with and I think Ann Coulter is a good example this and but the people who silence her always cry violation of freedom of speech and expression when they don't get such as in this case but at least in this case they are get a taste of their own medicine.
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 6:07 PM EST
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Peter just give an example
Sorry Peter I really don't see how QuAIA is a hate group or used/uses hate speech, if they did I'd be all for banning them. You'll have to provide an example of them using hate speech or provide some evidence they're a hate group. You provide the evidence and I will gladly join you in trying to get them banned. I'm not actually a member of QuAIA, I have very little interest in the issue personally, but what does make me very upset is people trying to silence a group of queers just because they don't agree with them, censorship has no place in our society and especially at the Pride march. Btw its been shown repeatedly that the chant Gladstone interpreted to be "fist by fist, blow by blow" was actually "brick by brick, wall by wall" regardless even if they had been chanting what Gladstone claims they were that's hardly encouraging the violent overthrow of Israel or its destruction. Peter you are part of the Israel lobby, its made up of folks like yourself and Gladstone who cannot accept any criticism of Israeli policies and who take actions to censor those who do criticize their policies. The funny thing is there is much criticism of Israel within Israel and the term apartheid is used on a regular basis to describe the situtation there by Israelis of all political stripes. As someone else already pointed out if it were Queers Against English Apartheid no one would care because its silly because there's nothing even close to apartheid in England, but when it comes to Israel then its Israel right or wrong defenders go into full attack mode because it does resemble the situation in Israel. No one is being discriminated against btw, its just criticism of a state's policies, and it wouldn't be a big deal if there wasn't a smear campaign against QuAIA in the efforts to censor them.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 6:32 PM EST
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@Rich What Lobby? or what Planet do you live on?
because you have opposition you can't say that I'm a member of a lobby group or anyone to that matter and Rich Apartheid is South African not Israeli and it means {a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa} here is the English Definition of the Word {http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apartheid} and Israel does not have Racial Segregation no country has Racial Segregation and Rich So what if Israel has a wall it has keep a lot of suicide bombers from targeting Civilians Jews or Arabs they really don't care who or on its borders I do believe the United States has a wall with Mexico and Spain has them long there border with African Countries but I think they have them for a reason. But its rather funny that you teabags are supporting Islamic Terrorism and think that has something to do with Gay Rights or Pride is beyond reason
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 7:03 PM EST
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re: Peter
Peter your comment "you are the ones that are censorship this issue like not liking opposition" is ridiculous. Challenging lies told by folks like yourself is not censorship, pointing out the truth of the matter is not censorship, standing up for free expression is not censorship. What is censorship is banning a queer group from the Pride march because some disagree with their message. Those protesting Coulter had as much right to be heard as did Coulter, its unfortunate that more demonstrators showed up than could be handled but that isn't their fault and Coulter really does come close to using hate speech, much much closer than QuAIA ever has yet there's been no campaign to silence her like there has been to silence QuAIA, can you say double standard? It seems to be acceptable to useful nasty hateful speech when attacking Muslims but criticize the policies of a foreign gov't and you'll be labeled a hate group. So Peter you support free speech for Coulter but not for QuAIA. Why is that? The Pride march is the perfect place for them to have their say, they're a queer group fighting for justice for all in Israel and the occupied territories, there have been and still are plenty of queer groups supporting causes that aren't strictly LGBT focused and there's no effort to censor them, just QuAIA so its false to claim that your opposition is to them not supporting a strictly LGBT cause otherwise you would have been opposed to all those other groups as well. Also if me, QuAIA or the others defending them were truly hateful bigots as you claim then surely there would be evidence of that by now in all the writing we've been doing on this issue. Yes passions have run high on both sides of the issue but sometimes the reason hatred can't be seen is because it isn't there, mind you I, and others, do hate the ongoing attempts to smear and silence QuAIA and to deny Pride funding but that's not bigotry. I'm sure you hate folks standing up for the truth regarding QuAIA to
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 7:27 PM EST
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lobby is as lobby does
Peter if you lobby to have something done then you are a lobbyist, why do you reject the term? its value neutral and doesn't imply anything other than trying to get others to do what you'd like them to do, usually gov'ts, in this case city hall, but can be any organization that's being lobbied like Pride Inc. Your comment "Israel does not have Racial Segregation" totally ignores the reality of the occupied territories where there are Jewish only roads and Jewish only settlements on Palestinian land. Besides which debating the rights and wrongs of Israel policies is not the issue here, the issue at hand is the attempt to censor a queer group because some disagree with them. It doesn't matter if Israel is the most just country on the face of the planet, criticism of them should still be allowed regardless. I'm still waiting for some examples from you concerning QuAIA's use of hate speech or other evidence they are actually a hate group, or a truthful example of them calling for Israel to be violently overthrown or otherwise attacking their right to exist, as was already mentioned Gladstone's claim about the chant in the video is false, considering what I have seen of that video I wouldn't be surprised if he intentionally "misheard" the chant in an effort to get some dirt on QuAIA where none existed. I can imagine the trouble he had being opposed to the group and trying to find something in the raw video that would make others oppose them as well. He did have to resort to showing video of protests in other cities that had absolutely nothing to do with QuAIA. In my mind that alone shows how much trouble he had trying to find evidence that QuAIA used hate speech or was a hate group. If he couldn't do it I don't actually expect you to do it Peter but give it a go, I'll be interested in what you propose as evidence.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 7:52 PM EST
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how exactly?
Peter how exactly does QuAIA, myself and the others defending QuAIA support Islamic terrorism? I'm curious to know.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 7:57 PM EST
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@ Rich think before you scream Witch
This is a double standard? I believe your Ann Coulter Example is a good one to say the least and what she says does fit in to Freedom of Speech and Expression but a some loons did force the University of Ottawa to cancel her speech because someone does not like her views and I personally don't but I think she does have the right to say it. Also it still does not give you the right to label someone as a lobbyist when they disagree with you teabags, it kind of sound like the Salem, Massachusetts in the 1690s and people screaming Witch and it did not turn out good for anyone. Rich personally I also feel very sorry to the Palestinians and it a crime what is happening to them and it does really break my heart that people in North America or anywhere use their suffering to front their own political agenda as many in the Islamic World do and they could careless about them in reality but they don't mind using them to front as a cover. Hamas does that since they can give out $1000 a night hotel rooms in Dubai but can't spend a cent on people in Gaza and the QuAIA seems to be doing the same using Palestinian suffering and thinking it has anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada which it does not but it seem to be a cover in trying to justify attacks against Jewish Members of the Gay community and Groups it's odd that it was a Jewish Group that the QuAIA did blame for this mess did come to our defense this might tell you something to say the least. Rich this is a double standard and I know that you can't see this but you are also trying to put censorship on this issue when you try to silence people who oppose you and your group it works both ways and its not a one way street if it was this makes this really undemocratic but your rather blind to that I can clear see that
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 8:08 PM EST
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@ Rich
Do you know the difference between a race and a religion? and tell me about the Muslim only roads and cities in Saudi Arabia and also they ban Jews from entering the country(not segregation or Apartheid? ) or the Zero Gay rights in Muslim Nations then if you still think that I'm a lobbyist but its clear your a lobbyist then but I'm not going to scream witch because I you are only saying that because your facing opposition and you can't stand it. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wcDKFbII7uI/SRvIIKQd_iI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/w0yf-Om9hVk/s1600-h/hway-2-mecca-muslims-only.jpg
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 8:35 PM EST
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many are Jewish
Peter many of the members of QuAIA are Jewish themselves, how exactly has QuAIA attacked Jewish members of the gay community as you claim? They haven't said or done anything to attack anyone, no Israeli policy isn't a person. How am I trying to silence you? By asking for evidence of your claims? that's hardly silencing or censorship, yet it is censorship to demand that QuAIA be banned from the Pride march, the two things are in no way similar. Is it censorship because I challenge your lies and distortions about QuAIA? Do you think free speech means never being challenged regardless of what you say? That would be ridiculous. I'm sorry you take lobbyist to be an insult, I can't imagine why you would but it might explain why you see QuAIA as a hate group despite reality. So are you saying that ethnic and religious segregation is okay so long as it it isn't about skin colour? I would hope Israel aspires to be better than Saudi Arabia, I know myself and I imagine QuAIA too expect much more from a modern democracy than from a monarchy. Peter I tire of this, either come up with some examples proving your point that QuAIA is a hate group that needs to be banned or come up with some new argument, perhaps you should spend some time learning some of the basic concepts discussed here like censorship for example. Your claim that I am censoring you makes it clear you have no idea what you're talking about, besides its rather pointless debunking your lies and distortions since anyone of average intelligence reading them will clearly see them for what they are without any help from me.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
04/30/10 9:49 PM EST
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Censorship is Rich's favorite card
We all say that we have Jewish Friends that card is getting rather old this is like saying that Hamas or the PLO has openly Gay members or even cares about Gay Rights and Rich you don't like opposition you seem to clear on that and personal insults is just another card you people use and yes Rich most people who do hold prejudices are rather blinded from seeing it themselves and it does tell a lot like how a Middle Eastern War has anything to do with Gay Rights or how is the QuAIA even a Gay Rights Group since it seems to have little with Gay Rights in Canada but wants to spread a Middle Eastern War into our community and Rich seem to the one who is lobbying it.
Peter, Toronto ON
04/30/10 10:19 PM EST
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Thank you Peter...
I really appreciate you. Thank you for being a voice in the community that chooses to speak. I admire your courage immensely.
Bob, Toronto ON
05/01/10 12:17 AM EST
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just answer the questions
Peter just answer the questions I asked, why is it free speech is good for Coulter but not for QuAIA? where's the evidence that QuAIA is a hate group or uses hate speech. It is true that many members of QuAIA are themselves Jewish, their connection to the situation in Israel is probably why they got involved in such a group in the first place though that's just a guess since I don't know them personally. I seriously doubt the PLO has openly gay members but whatever, it has nothing to do with the issue at hand does it. Talk about personal insults! you've been dishing them out plenty calling me and others who support free speech supporters of Islamic terrorism and bigots and hate mongers and the list goes on. All of your arguments against QuAIA are based on personal insults and nothing more. Btw it isn't a war, its an occupation going on in Israel and Bob exactly how much courage does it take to comment on an anonymous comment board such as this? Oh yeah Peter check out the QuAIA website for more info on why they've formed such a group, it'll answer your questions about their relevance to the gay community in Toronto. Its pretty obvious you've never checked out their website yet since you keep asking questions they cover, myself I'm only here to defend their right to free speech and to participate in the Pride march. Btw you are correct in that I am here to argue against opposition to free speech so yes I am a proud free speech lobbyist, hate is a strong word but I can safely say I hate censorship. Free speech doesn't imply their won't be opposition to it like you seem to think, my opposition to your efforts and the efforts of the rest of the Israel lobby to censor this queer group in no way means you're being censored or being denied free speech, if xtra.ca started deleting comments from pro-censorship folks like yourself then that would be censorship but they don't do that do they, you are still free to continue name calling just as I am to argue against you.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/01/10 4:11 PM EST
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How wrong Peter is
Peter, Coulter was not censored by the University of Ottawa. Could you please tell us where she was censored? She merely received a letter from an officila at UofO in which she was told that she should be careful about what she said because of hate speech laws. Now, let me say this slowly, because somehow you are conveniently uncapable of processing this type of information. (1) There is no discussion that hate speech law is important to protect minorities. (2) The University of Ottawa did not cancel her speech, she was warned that she might break hate speech laws in canada and she acted like an irrational moron. Maybe you feel some affinity here. (3)Hate speech goes both way. Unfortunately, it isn't applied when Pro-Israel groups claim that everyone in the occupied terrorists grows up to be a terrorist, that islam is a religion of hatred, etc. (4) The question is not whether there should be or there shouldn't be hate speech, but whether it is hateful to criticize a nation for its actions. The law would say no, and if I am wrong, I fully expect that people like you would like to have QaIA prosecuted. I am against hate speech Peter, if you think you have a case, by all means, do it. If not, do us the favour of remaining quiet. If you are right.. and it sounds like you rarely are, then stop annoying us here... go right ahead to the police and the police and the courts. What is the use of talking to us? You are right? Right? Go to the police... you don't need to be here arguying with us. Or... is it that the police is going to say... hmmm ... no... then you can go to the courts... but why isn't one pro-Israel lawyer picking this up? If it has merit.. I mean. We can say down with American imperialism, we can say down with Israeli Apartheid... and that is that. You and Bob can cry all you want... you are trying to cover the sun with a finger... this thing is going to make it to the mainstream... just watch. Solution... Israel changes its ways.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/01/10 7:34 PM EST
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Wow zezi,
but anyone can't seem to answer how a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? and Zezi you people are on the border line when it comes to hate speech in this country kind of like Ann Coulter and you people just don't like opposition kind of like Ann Coulter
Peter, Toronto ON
05/01/10 9:42 PM EST
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So you know Peter
I don't know where you are from Peter, but either you are not from here or you have been too busy to realize that Pride has ALWAYS included groups fighting for human rights around the world. So, whether it has something to do with Gay rights or not, it is IRRELEVANT, as it is part of what Pride has alwasy been. What part of that don't you get? Where were you when the groups against poverty marched with us? Those against the war in Darfur? Those have all marched withus. In addition. (1) These people are queer, Pride is a queer event; (2) Israel has used homosexual rights to portray itself as a progressive country, which it cannot be until it dismantles the Jewish National Fund (which discriminates against religion, something that no landlord in Canada would be allowed to do), it recognizes non-jewish villages within its borders, it is equally likely to provide permits for construction regardless of religion; it recognizes marriage rights for everyone, or stops recognizing marriages altogether; it returns to its 1967 borders... think of it this way, Israel brought us into its mess...I could go on about inequality and legalized discrimination in Israel... The thing is peter, you can throw yourself to the floor, scream at everyone, but if Israel wants to stop others from calling it an apartheid state, there is one easy way to do it, stop being an apartheid state. There is nothing fringe about what I am saying, it is like saying that being against Darfur is being fringe. You might be surrounded by people who think like you, but the vast majority of people, faced with the evidence, would not feel the way you do. A few people want to bring that evidence to people without having to show them what Israel did to Gazan children with its high tech bombs, so that we can spare each other having to go through that horror. Israel must take responsibility. It is an all grown up country now...
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/01/10 9:59 PM EST
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What is hateful?
Three of 4 federal parties have condemned the linking of the word "apartheid" with Israel. The Ontario legislature was unanimous in making the same condemnation. Prominent city officials, including David Miller, Kyle Rae, and George Smitherman have stated that the anti apartheid groups don't belong in the parade; others say the groups create a 'poisoned' environment. The standard of what is hateful must be measured here in Canada. It doesn't matter if the word is used in Israel. Here in Canada, people understand the word apartheid as it was defined by South Africa. An across the board system of discrimination based on race. In Israel, an arab sits on the Supreme Court! Totally unthinkable in SA during apartheid. So, when you call Israel an apartheid state, and most people here know what true apartheid looks like, it's totally untrue and hateful to suggest Israel is apartheid.
Peter, Hamilton ON
05/01/10 10:56 PM EST
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if they had done that on their own
Hi Peter, The thing is, when you scream and scream until people listen to you, as the pro-Israel group has done... then you can't say that the four federal parties have condemned the use of Israeli Apartheid and take it seriously. It is like using the pressure put on Pride Toronto by the pro-Israel group to imply that Pride Toronto believed that apartheid is not the correct word to use. You can't pester and pester our politicians and when they "condemn" something say they did it out of their free will. It is like saying that McQuinty stopped his plan for sex-ed because he didn't believe in it, and not because he was pressured to reverse it. Do you get my drift? The other thing is that I don't really care what our politicians think. There was a time when they all thought homosexuality was wrong. They can condemn all they want and they can refrain themselves from using the word all they want. WHAT THEY DIDN'T DO SAYS MORE. They did not pass a law that said that it was hate speech, because they can't, or forbid people from using it, because they can't. Or contacted police and had them arrested or fined, because it is perfectly legal. A condmenation is a "we don't like it" and we can all see how pushy the pro-Israel group can be, how they won't stop at anything... they are, after all, willing to bring down Pride Toronto unless they get their way. So, you have provided no proof of hate speech. Sorry... you failed, again. They can condemn all they want, it is simply their opinion, which in many cases (yes, I don't think politicians have much of a back bone) was the result of pressure on them. So it means even less.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/01/10 11:16 PM EST
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zezi and Rick
Words can be hateful without breaching Canada's very strict hate laws. Take for example, a sign on the TTC which asks, Does god love gays? Rick, you say there must be limits on free speech. Should this ad be displayed anywhere and everywhere? Why not? Millions of people believe the truth that god hates the homosexual act, and they have it on good authority, their bible.
Peter, Hamilton ON
05/02/10 7:01 AM EST
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Rick
Rick, you seem very sincere in wanting to learn why QuAIA messaging is hateful. You spend countless hours defending their rights. How about a short trip to the Holocaust education centre? You can have a chat with the director, and have all your questions answered.
Peter, Hamilton ON
05/02/10 7:17 AM EST
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hate laws
Hi Peter, Finally we can agree that no hate laws have been broken. Great. Now, I don't see how using a word that means Israel legally discriminates against non-jewish people is hateful. There are lots of hateful words out there, apartheid isn't one. Israel is a country, it is therefore not protected as a group. Israelis as a whole are, so they are protected as a group, the same way gays are. I realize that pointing out the nature of Israel's policies can have negative consequences, people don't like the americans very much because of what they have done in the pas alsot, not because it is hate speech, but because people tend to not like countries who practice apartheid and because there are a lot of anti-semites out there who will equate this to Jewish people. This is partly because Israel is an apartheid state and equates itself with its Jewish majority. The Pro-Israel group and Israel too, have done Jewish people a disservice by claiming that Israel represents them, whent as QaIA shows, it doesn't represent many of them. The consequences you are worried about are understandable, but does that mean that we cannot have a movement to end discrimination in Israel? To end the ocupation? To make sure no more Gaza's and Lebanon's happen? I don't think anyone should be stopped from criticizing a state who behaves like Israel. 3,000 prominent jewish people just signed a letter asking Europe to stop giving unconditional support to Israel. Obviously within the Jewish community there are huge clusters of people who are fed up. Outside of the commuity also. I am fed up. And frankly, QaIA is making sure not to equate Israel with Jewish people or Israeli citizens as whole. I don't understand what you want to happen? Nothing? Remember, horrible things happen when people do nothing. I am hopeful, things are changing with respect to Israel... maybe there is going to peace... I am hopeful.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 8:56 AM EST
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let them march and be done with it already
I can't believe this debate still rages with n0 new ideas or arguments..Just let a few people march with their placards and be done with it--the world won't be altered and their will be no violation of the law--just an expression of a point of view re one country (As often is the case in the march/parade over 39 years...on one country or other...the myth that "gay pride" is just about celebrating being LGBT is simplistic--it is also about protesting whatever LGBT want to protest with signs--long tradition of this. The more attention you give to QUAIA --ironically by those against their participating--the more important they seem to be--and I must say their message is certainly out there loud and clear long before the march. (And as I have said before many of them are prominent longtime LGBT activists and personalities who shld be allowed to have a voice..)in our annual celebration/march. And Pride T has ruled it is OK now so I don't see the big deal here.
james dubro, toronto ontario
05/02/10 10:23 AM EST
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Zezi Apartheid=Minority rule not
Zezi I can't believe you finally said this but you said {This is partly because Israel is an apartheid state and equates itself with its Jewish majority} If Israel was a Apartheid State then you have just proven how its not. Apartheid in South Africa as anyone who study it is a Withe Minority ruled over a Black Majority and enforce racial segregation policy that separated Whites and Blacks kind of like the Jim Crow laws in the United States after the American Civil War to the 1960s. On top of that Withe Minority ruled ruled over the Black Majority and the Majority had ZERO rights of the and could not even be in the Government for example. In Israel 80% of the Population is Jewish and about 20% is Arabs or mostly Arab unlike South Africa, Arabs enjoy equal rights and are in all levels of the Israel government. But if this is a question over discrimination that takes place in Israel then the Apartheid card can not be applied here. Discrimination among minorities in Canada for example is a problem here in Canada and we are not perfect either and Xtra does document how Homophobia is still a big problem. Antisemitism and racism in general is still a big problem in Canada. Also near 80% of Canada does have European Background but is a country that has problems with discrimination then is Canada Apartheid State? Israel might have problems with discrimination but this is a problem that all countries have and they fight it including Israel just ask all the Arab and Gay members of the Knesset then or members of the Supreme Court.Sorry discrimination exists everywhere including in Pride thanks to your group of lairs. Discrimination happens here in Toronto and all over Canada but I see no one labeling Canada as Apartheid because of it. Also you might want to look up what Apartheid really was since you seem not to have a clue what it is and thanks Zezi you shown how this is not a Gay Right Group and please keep discrimination out of Pride it has no place in Pride AT ALL Thanks
The other Peter, Toronto ON
05/02/10 1:49 PM EST
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Zezi or the other Liars here
FYI: I'm not defending anyone it does break my heart on what the Palestinians had to put up with or I'm not the Israel Lobby as Rich uses since he faces opposition and this is kind of like labeling someone a Witch in Salem Massachusetts in the 1690s and that turn out great for everyone and the people who did that only did it because they had opposition. I think it just rather inhuman that you people can use their suffering of Palestinians to advance your political agenda that in this case has little to do with Gay Rights . This it what the Palestinian Leadership does and they could care less about them in general such as Hamas and $1000 a night hotel rooms in Dubai and can't spend that amount on anyone in Gaza. Sorry If you people really think that fundamentalist Islam is Gay Friendly then something wrong with you they could careless about Gay Rights at least Israel allows us to be we are and won't kill us for it and Can some one please answer HOW DOES A MIDDLE EASTERN WAR HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH GAY RIGHTS IN CANADA? and that is the message of Pride in Canada and why we have them. The only answers that I'm getting are the teabags who have a political agenda that has nothing to do with Gay Rights in Canada but trying to use it to advance their own agenda's even when it's a bunch of lies.
The other Peter, Toronto ON
05/02/10 2:36 PM EST
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a lesson in logic for Peter
The spirit of the word "Apartheid" is racial segregation and legalized discrimination which in the case of Israel would be cultural/religious segration. Whether it is a minority or a majority that does it, is irrelevant. Israel is an apartheid state because (1) within its borders it doesnt' have equal rights for non jewish people. (2) It doesn't want its non-jewish indigenous population to live in Israel proper and it seeks to displace them from what is left of historical palestine through jewish settlements. (3) Israel proper has a jewish majority. Israel proper defines itself as a jewish state, to the exclusion of a more pluralistic society that includes the muslims, christians, bedouins, etc, who live within their borders. The state of Israel and the pro-Israel groups have equated Israel to being jewish, without asking all jewish people. It is simplistic and only racists would make the claim that the actions of Israel reflect on Jews around the world. It doesn't. 3,000 European Jews have said they want Europe to stop endorsing Israel no matter what. This includes previous supporters. In the US a number of Jewish organizations have sprang up to say "not in my name". Where Israel has, in the most racist of ways, tried to portray the palestinians and muslims in general as irrational people who they could never had peace with, Jason Alexander created One Voice which showed how much can be done among both people. Israel lies anyways... it cannot be that it is impossible to have peace with Muslims when the two peace agreements it has wiht muslim countries have actually held. Israel is the biggest obstacle for peace right now... it is about time it starts trying harder. And you can scream all you want Peter, QaIA will march, and the movement against Israel's actions will grow... and hopefully that will make Israel more willing to negotiate peace. That is all I have to say.. you can scream at your computer all you want... this is going
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 2:50 PM EST
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3,00o European Jews are Fed up
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1166737.html A new leftist European Jewish group, JCall, has written a letter to be delivered Sunday to the European Parliament calling for a cessation of what it calls systematic support for Israeli government decisions. JCall, which describes itself as "the European J Street" and is to be officially launched Sunday with the presentation of the letter, has raised a storm with its call to stop construction in West Bank settlements and East Jerusalem. The letter is signed by some 3,000 Jewish intellectuals, among them philosophers Bernard Henri-Levy and Alain Finkielkraut, considered some of Israel's strongest defenders among French intellectuals. Signatories also include Daniel Cohn-Bendit, leader of the student protests in the 1960s and now a member of the European Parliament, as well as other Jewish members of the European Parliament. Advertisement The letter calls occupation and settlements "morally and politically wrong," noting that they "feed the unacceptable delegitimization process that Israel currently faces abroad."
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 2:59 PM EST
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Zezi then these Jews care more about Israel
these Jews care more about Israel then you think if this is the European J Street then here is how J Street describes itself {is the political home for pro-Israel, pro-peace Americans.}more about them here: {http://www.jstreet.org/about/about-us} Thanks Zezi for showing how these 3000 European Jews Care about Israel then because they really do as with most Jews if they are the European J Street Lobby but this still has nothing to do with Gay Rights in Canada and shows your lack of knowledge about J Street for example and I would support them becasue he do care about Israel not finding ways to destroy it or they don't label it Apartheid either.
The other Peter, Toronto ON
05/02/10 3:10 PM EST
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I do know already
Peter I do know about the Holocaust already, probably more about it and how it came to be than most average people since I studied it and other genocides and crimes against humanity at the university level. I know full well the conditions commonly necessary for a genocide to occur and there are more risk factors for Israel to become a perpetrator of genocide/crimes against humanity than for it to be a victim of genocide/crimes against humanity. That's not to say Israel is likely to ethnically cleanse the occupied territories or anything like that, just that some of the conditions necessary for that sort of thing to happen are in place in Israel while there is no realistic threat of it or its citizens becoming the victims of ethnic cleansing or other crimes against humanity. But again this is all pointless and off topic because the issue at hand is why shouldn't QuAIA be allowed to participate in the Pride march and you still haven't come up with any valid reason why they shouldn't, your argument that they're hateful has no basis otherwise you would have been able to come up with some examples of how they're hateful instead of just parroting the propaganda of Gladstone's video which has already been shown to be full of lies and distortions, he couldn't find anything damming QuAIA either that's why he had to make up new words for their chant and use video clips from other cities and other demonstrations that have nothing whatsoever to do with QuAIA. If you really don't want to see QuAIA in the march then just turn your head when they go by, they'll only be about 30 seconds or so as they march by and then that will be it and it'll be all over, problem solved.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 3:45 PM EST
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@ Rich the Lobbyist screaming Witch
and Sudan did not cross it when they killed 400,000-800,000 civilians in Darfur? Mostly Arabs in the north Sudan wiping out the black Sudan in the South. The Europeans in North America did not cross line when displacing our Native People such as here in Toronto were European built a settlement named York on land that belongs to the Mohawk or when the Canadian Government along with the United Church Of Canada put or Native People into Residential Schools calling everything about them useless and backwards or when Europeans took native land from anywhere in North America and de populating native communities and resettling them with Europeans and because of that people of European Descent are the Majority in Canada and in the United States today and this only took place in the last 150 years and which by point of Historians is not that long ago and Rich I think you might have just heard about the Holocaust but can't seem to realize what the Nazis' did was beyond just inhuman and no country ever had done anything similar or was Apartheid in South Africa.Also what the United Stats did in the last 65 years can be nothing but short Genocide they too killed hundreds of thousands just to keep the Status Quo. But you still can't ANSWER WHY A MIDDLE EASTERN WAR HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH GAY RIGHTS IN CANADA? or what Rich I must be a Israel Lobby or a Witch then since you opposition and you don't like it but I see the real lobbyist here or the Witch hunter seem to know little on this issue or how a Middle Eastern War and the Hate from this War has anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada and that is the meaning of Pride not a Middle Eastern War.
The Other Peter, Toronto ON
05/02/10 4:16 PM EST
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@Rich the Lobbyist
ANSWER WHY A MIDDLE EASTERN WAR HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH GAY RIGHTS IN CANADA?? and why are you avoiding this question? and you still can't seem to understand what Apartheid is and Zezi pointed this one out how Israel is not one and how Jews do care about Israel with the European J street example and J Street it describes itself {is the political home for pro-Israel, pro-peace Americans.} Thanks Zezi for finally pointing out that the QuAIA does not even know what Apartheid in South Africa was and even showing how Israel is not even close to Apartheid and how Jews truly care about Israel and how Israel is like other countries including Canada still faces problems with discrimination along minorities and is nothing but a bunch of queer loons spreading the hate from a Middle Eastern War to our community and bring Discrimination into Pride which it does not belong So ANSWER WHY A MIDDLE EASTERN WAR HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH GAY RIGHTS IN CANADA?? its the Million dollar question and this is not bullying either or is it the Israel Lobby at play which is like screaming Witch in Salem, Massachusetts in the 1690s just becasue you have opposition and can't seem to answer the question.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/02/10 4:39 PM EST
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@ Zezi
also another Group one voice can be found here they don't use the A word either and the Zezi lack of knowledge on this group is like the J Street Example {http://www.onevoicemovement.org/about-onevoice/} and how does this have to do with Gay Rights in Canada?
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/02/10 4:51 PM EST
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@ Zezi
also another Group one voice can be found here they don't use the A word either and the Zezi lack of knowledge on this group is like the J Street Example {http://www.onevoicemovement.org/about-onevoice/} and how does this have to do with Gay Rights in Canada?
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/02/10 4:53 PM EST
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links for Peter
Petr sicne you're too lazy to look them up yourself here's the links talking about why QuAIA feels this is a queer issue http://queersagainstapartheid.org/faq/ I'd also strongly recommend you check out their home page and the rest of their site, also here's a link to a Jewish group called Independent Jewish Voices and why they feel apartheid is an appropriate description of the situation in Israel and the occupied territories. Now you got your answers to your questions now what about mine? why is free speech for Coulter a good thing but not for QuAIA? Where's the evidence they're a hate group or use hate speech? If you can't answer those questions you got to admit there's no reason why they should be banned since they've done nothing wrong. Also please explain why you see the term lobbyist as an insult, I'm curious because I've never heard of anyone before considering it an insult to be called a lobbyist. Peter if you can't answer my questions please do give it a rest, its boring to be honest going up against the same old arguments again and again in spite of the fact those arguments have been shown to be false. Just answer the questions if you're right it should be very easy for you to do, come back here again avoiding answering the questions and you'll as good as admitted QuAIA isn't a hate group and doesn't use hate speech.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 6:47 PM EST
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missing link from above
Here's the link I missed in my above comment about the appropriateness of the term apartheid in Israel's case http://ijvcanada.org/israel/israel-and-apartheid-is-it-a-fair-comparison/
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 6:49 PM EST
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@ Rich the Lobbyist likes censorship on the issue
but since you don't like opposition but here's more evidence from that Facebook Group D on this issue {http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/04/22/18645417.php} that proves your lies even more I wonder did Israel arrest these people for doing this? Answer Please. I believe South Africa under Apartheid would have done this since they did arrest anyone who criticized them and they were labeled banned persons this link explains what that term better since you have no idea what Apartheid is Rich or the comparison or a banned person is {http://overcomingapartheid.msu.edu/sidebar.php?id=2} or (Apartheid South Africa Laws) {http://academic.evergreen.edu/projects/wallpainting/New%20curriculum/8-12%20All/8-12%20Social%20Studies/Laws%20of%20South%20Africa.doc} Apartheid? Did Israel Arrest or labeled them as Banned Persons Rich the Lobbyist who does is doing anything to put censorship on this issue or anyone who opposes your this group that wants to bring a Middle Eastern War into our community and has nothing to do with Gay Rights in Canada. Wow even the facebook group Don't sanitize Pride: Free expression must prevail even shows how Israel is not a Apartheid State kind of like Zezi did with his J Street or One Voice examples
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/02/10 7:13 PM EST
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no answers?
So Peter you have no answers for the the questions asked so you're willing to admit QuAIA is not a hate group, doesn't use hate speech therefore there's no valid reason to ban them from marching during Pride, good for you! Btw you should probably reread your own links before posting them, the first one you provided is supportive of groups like QuAIA and explains very clearly why they see it as a queer issue. It doesn't have to be a queers only issue for them to join the Pride march, as long as its a queer group it doesn't matter what their issue is, Pride is their chance for their voice to be heard by the rest of the community just like every other group of whatever nature. The fact that there is a queer slant to this issue isn't of concern to me and I'd be just as supportive to their right to march even if they were protesting climate change or any other issue that wasn't queers only, a lot of LGBT folk feel a strong connection to other liberation struggles where ever they may be or whomever they're about because they know what its like to be a part of an oppressed group, legal equality is still very new in Canada and its still a long way to go in terms of social equality, knowing how good it feels to finally have equality they want to do whatever they can to help others who are struggling to be free and equal too. The LGBT community got support during our years of struggle from other groups who had nothing to do with LGBT folks, some do it as paying a debt of gratitude, sort of paying it forward so to speak. These are people who want to make the world a better place through the advancement of human rights and equality for all. There is nothing hateful about these folks at all, I've known many social/political activists over the years, almost all of them were doing what they were doing because they felt compelled to try and help people in need. These people do not deserve to be smeared like they have been by the pro-censorship folks in some of these comments.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 9:20 PM EST
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@ Rich the Lobbyist sorry you can see it
The QuAIA is trying to bring a Middle Eastern War into the Community and most Wars do have a lot of Hate(about 40 years of hate in this case) on both sides even if you can't see that and that is not really my problem if you can see that most people who do have hate in them don't see it either and that Israeli Group does show my point on this Issue if they were able to do that without being arrested for there Political Activities then it gives a lot of proof on your Apartheid lie then you think if this was South Africa under Apartheid then they would be arrested and considered banned persons under South African Law and they even remained me about the plot of a Israeli Gay Movie on this Issue it was called the Bubble By Eytan Fox kind of talks a lot about this issue and did get funding from the Israel Government too go out and rent it then if you don't believe me and that kind shows how Israel is a open society and is not even close to Apartheid South Africa since Israeli's themselves can do something like that unlike Apartheid South Africa since it was illegal and as with your link also shows no relevance to this either most of it could be said about Canada but since you can't see that it's not my problem either. Rich Again you don't like opposition or when someone disproves it because your trying to control the issue here and only want a one sided debate on this issue but your not going to get it when you seem to be lobbying this as a one sided debate and also you seem not understand what Apartheid South Africa even was or what it was a white minority controlling a black majority and in Israel is not the case when 80% of the population is Jewish and a Majority and gives Minorities equal rights with full representation in the government unlike what Blacks had in South Africa but I feel really sorry that you can't see this. Also having a one sided debate on the issue is also undemocratic I'm sorry you can see that point either or the Ann Coulter Example
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/02/10 9:47 PM EST
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Israel brought this war to North America
It was Israel that made its war an issue in North America by accepting $4 billion dollars a year of US military aid, by having strong lobbies trying to influence the government, the news and our damn opinions, by trying to brainwash the diaspora (you are a great example). Israel wanted us to side with it, it told us it was a victim, that it was the palestinians who didn´t want peace, that they were just like us, the only democracy in the middle east. I don´t have an opinion in Darfur because no one tried to make me believe that Sudan is right, but the Pro-Israel group tried to make me believe that Israel was right in everything it did, and it lied to do it. I wasn´t going to take a stand in something without researching it, that is how I know it was a lie. What country agrees to a ceasefire but doesn´t meet its obligations under the cease fire? Israel. What country says it wants peace but then says it will not be forced into peace by Obama? Israel? What country says it is a democracy but virtually controls Gaza´s borders, their trade, their taxes and ditto for the West Bank, places were palestinians have not voted for them? Israel. What country says it wants peace but continues to expand jewish settlements? Israel. I am fed up with Israel and if Obama imposes a peace deal... if the international community has to push them back to their own borders... it is only fair. I want peace for both Israel and Palestine.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 10:49 PM EST
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The Kind of Peace Israel wants
from Haaretz. "A second problem is that Israelis perceive their country's control of the West Bank as the starting point for "mutual concessions." The Palestinian concession in 1988 of 78 percent of "historical Palestine" is considered irrelevant. From the premiership of Ehud Barak to that of Netanyahu, Israel has eschewed territorial exchanges on a one-to-one basis, whose ultimate meaning is carving up the "poor man's lamb," to use the biblical metaphor. Advertisement Third, Netanyahu will have to confront the public's impression that Ehud Olmert, like Barak before him, "gave up everything" but was turned down by the Palestinians. In the Israeli consciousness, "everything" refers to the territorial issue and leaves out Jerusalem, the refugees and security. In fact, the Palestinians stretched the interpretation of the UN's resolutions in order to accede to Israeli demands in at least the four following ways. Although the international community denies the legality of the settlements, the Palestinians proposed a territorial exchange that allows 75 percent of the settlements to remain under our sovereignty. Although the international community has determined that East Jerusalem's status is the same as the West Bank's, the Palestinians agreed to leave the neighborhoods Israel established after 1967 in Israel's hands. Despite the centrality of the refugee issue, the Palestinians agreed that the practical solution would be financial compensation and to settle the refugees in Palestine. And although every country has a natural right to things like air space, coastal waters and an army, the Palestinians agreed to Israeli demands that take bites out of their sovereignty." I think that the palestinians are giving and giving and giving and the Israel government keeps of saying there is no partner for peace... hmmm... yes, there is no partner for peace, Israel is not interested.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/02/10 11:05 PM EST
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Why Apartheid within its botders?
from haaretz.com, an israeli newspaper. "A reminder: Since 1967, Israel has expropriated 35 percent of the area of East Jerusalem (around 24 square kilometers). New Jewish neighborhoods were built on those lands, with 50,000 housing units. Hundreds of developers and contractors (and public employees?) continue to get rich from this construction. How many neighborhoods were built during that time for Arab-Israeli residents? Zero. When was the last time the government supported the construction of 600 apartments in an Arab neighborhood? Thirty years ago. Most of the lands left in the hands of Palestinians (about 45 square kilometers) have been declared "green areas." Lacking a comprehensive master plan for Jerusalem because of intentional political foot-dragging, building permits cannot be issued for areas outside the densely built-up Palestinian neighborhoods. And after all that, people on the right dare to complain that Arabs are building without permits, while attempts are being made to "expel" Jews from Beit Yonatan, a large building without a permit that their friends stuck like a bone in the throat of a Palestinian neighborhood. The prime minister is also peddling the line that "a Palestinian from East Jerusalem can build anywhere in the city." It's hard to believe that Netanyahu, who was born in Jerusalem, doesn't know that only Israeli citizens or those entitled to Israeli citizenship through the Law of Return have access to ILA property (93 percent of the land in Israel)." http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/discrimination-is-flourishing-in-east-jerusalem-1.287733
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/03/10 6:15 AM EST
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@Peter re: bully
Peter, you're the bully here: "you people don't like opposition and the Hate Crime laws do apply here." Wow, you're clueless. You (and others) have been repeatedly asked about how exactly QuAIA's position is illegal, and no one has answered that. Several people here have pointed out that if QuAIA were in fact breaking laws, they would have been arrested and charged for it long ago - but that's not good enough for "you people" (to borrow your divisive phrase). "You people" want to bar a group expressing a controversial opinion from a political parade because, what, it makes you feel uncomfortable? That drive to censor legitimate speech is what makes you a BULLY. The Toronto Pride parade would not exist today if "you people" had your way - Pride has always been about expressing speech that is unpopular and marginalized. Sure, QuAIA may be a fringe group whose message bears a tenuous relation to the usual themes at Pride. They are certainly not alone (think the Conservative Party marchers), and have a right to be in the parade. You can disagree, call them names, and call their positions stupid - it is a free country - but you do not have the right to censor them.
Dan, To ON
05/03/10 1:31 PM EST
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I'm not a bully you don't like opposition
Its only bullying when you people make it a one sided debate I'm just making it more democratic by giving opposition to the issue and that is not bullying and yes bullying when you people are discrimination towards people based on Nationality and that is a hate crime as defined by the Laws of this Land. I'm not censoring anyone here, I really think that you people want censorship on this issue and I know you people hate opposition and giving opposition is not bullying or is it censoring this issue Welcome to Canada a Democracy with freedom of Speech and the right to give opposition and labeling me a bully is just another card you people use to silence people who oppose you. You Hate opposition and your not going to silence me it really sounds like 1984 when you censors do this and the reason is that you hate to have opposition and only want a one sided debate and I'm making this more democratic unlike the undemocratic censors that label people such as a bully when you have opposition. So Dan get over it, this is not Bullying but labeling someone as a Bully this is trying to Censor and making it a one sided debate and no your not going to have a one sided debate, this is a two way street and opposition is apart of the democratic process even if you like it or not
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/03/10 3:43 PM EST
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Peter poor example
Peter the link you provided was to a Jewish Israeli gay group protesting apartheid in Israel, of course they aren't going to be treated poorly by the Israeli gov't since they're Jewish Israelis, QuAIA nor anyone else I've ever heard has serious complaints about the way Jewish Israelis are treated in Israel. The issue is how Palestinians are treated, have a look at the occupied territories with its Jewish only roads and Jewish only settlements, the restrictions on the movements of Palestinians as well as other laws which treat people differently according to their ethnicity/religion. But again that's not the issue at hand, the issue at hand is QuAIA's right to participate in Pride. Peter you seem to be doing your best to avoid dealing with that issue even though its the only issue of concern, why shouldn't QuAIA be allowed to be a part of Pride?
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/03/10 3:45 PM EST
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@ Rich the Lobbyist again you are blind
If that was South Africa under Apartheid they would have been arrested for that simply by criticizing the government and labeled as banned persons even if they were White South Africans I know you have little understanding of what South Africa under Apartheid and what the South African Government did to people who criticized them and yes many people in Israel both Jews and Arabs do the same thing it was even a plot of a Israeli Gay themed movie called the Bubble go out and rent it i if you don't believe me and Yes I do know Israeli's do criticized their governments treatment of the Palestinians many do but none of them get arrested for simply doing that so again the Apartheid card makes no sense since if it was South Africa under Apartheid they would have been considered Banned Persons under South African Law and Rich tell me about the Muslim only roads and Cities in Saudi Arabia then? I think what Israel does too Rich is not good but again look up the Oslo Accords it does talk a lot about I fail to see how does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? and that is what Prides about not a place to front your political agenda on how much you people hate Israelis then since this is a question that you are avoiding too
Peter, Toronto ON
05/03/10 4:15 PM EST
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any learning disabilities Peter
Now, lets see, the Israel lobbies Pride Toronto and the City of Toronto to cancel funding for Pride.... Peter sides with them and starts insulting people by calling them lobbyists. Does that mean that Gladstone is a bad bad lobbyist? Peter? Because he is the lobbyist in this problem we find ourselves in. Peter insults everyone, then calls them bullies... are you in 5th grade Peter? Peter? Then, he says that there is no such a thing as ban people in Israel. Thus, there can´t be apartheid in Israel. It is as if because the issue is religion and not race, there couldn´t be apartheid... that makes no sense Peter... but then again, you prove time and time again that you aren´t particularly smart. But you are certainly a screamer. And we have heard you scream and scream without making any important points with regards to anything. You go girl! If it makes you feel like you are part of a debate.. go ahead.. let it out.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/03/10 8:12 PM EST
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last comment on this
Peter just check out QuAIA's website, http://queersagainstapartheid.org/ it will answer your questions about them even though me and others have already done so. Here's an article from Independent Jewish Voices discussing whether or not the term apartheid is applicable to the situation in Israel and the occupied territories, it also has the view of South Africans who lived through apartheid there http://ijvcanada.org/israel/israel-and-apartheid-is-it-a-fair-comparison/ I'd recommend you read their other articles too, you'll find it interesting I'm sure. Censoring people by banning them from Pride just because some other folks disagree with them and find the topic "uncomfortable" is unacceptable. Many of the advancements leading up to legal equality were based at least in part on the right of free expression, attacking the notion of free speech will do us as a community no good. Attempting to censor other queers is offensive to many queers in Toronto, many of whom moved here for the freedom to be themselves. If we in this city can't have a Pride march where everyone's voice can be heard peacefully and without incident then who can? I'm very disturbed by the smear campaign against QuAIA too, they most certainly are not a hate group or anything like one, not even close. I would support banning any hate group from Pride or any group that uses hate speech, but that is in no way QuAIA. People should check out their website for themselves and make up their own mind about them, its a description of who they are and what they believe. You don't have to agree with them to support their right to free speech. No one is questioning the right of the pro-Israel/policy to march and just because some of them are uncomfortable hearing differing opinions that's no reason to ban QuAIA, I'm sure there are Palestinian queers in the crowd who'd likely feel uncomfortable with all the pro-Israel marchers. Discomfort simply isn't reason enough to take away others
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/03/10 8:35 PM EST
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Zezi the other Lobbyist , Witch, censor, bully
I'm not the Israel Lobby and because of that I think your a Witch too bad this was not Salem, Massachusetts in 1692 it might be a bit easier to make that label and a and keep up with the insults Zezi I really know you hate Opposition and Zezi and you people use it to try and censor people on this issue and don't like a free and open debate on this issue but only a one sided one and your not going to get it. Also that is a form of bullying. If this was the case of Religious then why did people such as Bahá'í manage to find religious freedom in Israel then? when in Iran they are killed for who they are?{http://www.ganbahai.org.il/en/} and please give me an example of a banned person in Israel who was arrested for political activities? Were those Queers protesting Israeli Policy in Jerusalem for example arrested? In South Africa they would have been. Since you have no Idea what South Africa under Apartheid even was is not really my problem you might want to read a History book on that it might clarify a lot for you. Zezi every single time you quote Haaretz for example proves you wrong too in South Africa under Apartheid the Media there did not report on events among the Black Population they did really care or even using other groups such as JStreet or One Voice they do have offices in Israel and South Africa would never allow something like that but every time you use personal insults that means I've proven you wrong and you people use it when proven wrong but I know your rather blinded and answer How does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? there are never answers to this I wonder why?
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/03/10 8:50 PM EST
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@ Rich
By trying to make this a one sided debate that is censorship but you can't answer How does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? or Pride in Toronto?
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/03/10 8:56 PM EST
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How is this a queer issue? (Answer)
Queer and trans people living in the West Bank and Gaza face daily military violence just for being who they are: Palestinian. There can’t be freedom of gender and sexuality without freedom from daily violence and the right to love who you choose, live where you choose, and attend groups, meetings and political activities without persecution. Road blocks, military checkpoints, house demolitions, curfews and the apartheid wall are all part of the daily reality for all Palestinians, regardless of their orientation. Queer rights are not safe until all people’s rights are safe. There was a period of sexual liberation in early 20th century Europe that was destroyed by the rise of fascism. As queers we neglect other struggles and other equality rights at our peril. All our struggles are bound up together. QuAIA is an example of people of different backgrounds working together for the equality of all. FOR MORE Q&A, SEE: http://queersagainstapartheid.org/faq/
Rick, London Ontario
05/03/10 10:44 PM EST
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^ yes
And if it weren't for the terrible Israelis Hamas would be having weekly Pride parades in Gaza
Danilo, Vancouver BC
05/03/10 11:00 PM EST
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Rick, Pride its about Gay Rights in Canada
Then you think they should take it up with Hamas or the Palestinian National Authority who are the governmental body of the Palestinians and demand their rights from either Hamas or the Palestinian National Authority this is not Israel's problem if Hamas or the Palestinian National Authority is not giving this to Gay Palestinians. Rick how does this have to with Gay Rights here in Canada? and that is the Question and that's what Pride is about or how does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Pride or Gay Rights in Canada? or Toronto? to that matter this is a question that goes on either side since Pride is about the celebration of our rights in our country and our community not a front for foreign war since this is starting to create alienation from either Israeli ,Palestinians, Jews, Muslims ,and Christians in our community this is what this controversy is doing and this is wrong but this group wants use Our Pride as a front in a foreign war that does not belong in our country our in our community. We should be doing is: Making Love not War and building Bridges of Peace(which I think Canadians and Queers are really good at) instead of creating front lines or even beating the drums of a Middle Eastern War and that is what happening in community and I think such a division does not belong in our community and call me a bully or even the Israel Lobby all you want since (I do think that the Apartheid part is a lie and nothing can repeat South Africa under Apartheid that's comparing a country to National Socialist Germany) but that's what we should be doing instead of creating more front lines in a Middle Eastern War
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/03/10 11:36 PM EST
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Peter, and bullies
Peter, you're just not getting it, are you? YOU are the one advocating that QuAIA should be censored from the Pride parade, not I. YOU are the one advocating for restricting the speech of a group that you disagree with, not I. YOU are the one advocating that a group's civil liberties be curtailed to agree with your sensitivities, not I. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Your entire position is that a group expressing an unpopular position be censored for it (i.e. bullied into silence). No one here is suggesting we shut you up and thereby bullying you into silence - we're just calling your bullying position out for what it is. Cope.
Dan, Toronto ON
05/04/10 10:21 AM EST
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Poor Peter
Peter, Of course. You are the little guy who fails school, with the big mouth insulting everyone, right? What a little victim you are.., a very dumb victim, who begins by insulting everyone and then goes to the teacher because they said something he thinks is mean. But, she thinks, how would he know that? He can´t tell an apple from an orange. You are right though. I don´t see why I would continue responding to your posts.. might as well let you go on and on with your stupidity... I am sure I am not the first one who thinks you are stupid... so this might be a deep issue for you... and we the unlucky victims of your insecurities... who are you trying to impress, because you probably aren´t even impressing those who agree with you? And, from what you write here, it would seem, you don´t impress much.. do you? The conversation is just going to continue deteriorating... you are just not at par. Some of those who agree with you can at least come up with more viable, even if I think misinformed and wrong, arguments than you. You are bottom of the barrel... but you are free to rant and rant... All I will do from now on is counter each claim you make with a posting from an Israeli source, be it a newspaper or the Israeli government statistics, so that I don´t have to call you an idiot anymore... so that others who can clearly see how your lack of logic (it isn´t hard( can also see it is accompanied by ignorance.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/04/10 1:04 PM EST
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How Many are there?
Without commenting on the subject matter, Peter and Another Peter seem to be the same person. Don't know why he finds that necessary. The slur word you are looking for, however many Peters there are, is teabaggers, not teabag. I also think you are using the term out of context. Do you mean teabaggers as in those right wing republican tax protesters who think Obama was born in Africa or do you mean it as people who dangle their testicles in each others eyes? Your comment isn't clear. Perhaps on of your alter egos can take a moment to explain? Let me just sign my name as Peter.
Yet Another Peter, Toronto Ontario
05/04/10 2:26 PM EST
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@ Dan and @Zezi don't like a free debate
Dan I'm just asking how does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Pride or Gay Rights in Canada and it is not bullying and this is censorship if you don't want a free debate on this issue and want a one sided only and that is censorship and Zezi I feel sorry that you don't want a Civil Debate on this issue your a bully when you call people names or even try to use insults against people when they disagree I do understand that you people use these cards censor opposition or been proven wrong (like the J Street example) and your not going to stop me and Zezi you do understand when you do call people names or use insults against people that is a form of bullying and I never said that the QuAIA should not march. I just disagree with you people trying to turn Our Pride into a front in a Middle Eastern War and I also think that you don't even want to Make Love and Not War or Build Bridges of Peace but instead turn and divided our community into a battle ground in a Middle Eastern War
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/04/10 2:31 PM EST
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Huh?
"your a bully when you call people names or even try to use insults against people when they disagree" Did I miss something? Weren't you the one calling people "teabag" and didn't you mean that as a personal insult? You're confusing me Peters.
Yet Another Peter, Toronto Ontario
05/04/10 2:43 PM EST
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you are uncapable
You are uncapable of a civil debate Peter.. you are a screaming idiot... there cannot be a civil debate with a screaming idiot. You started calling people names... and like an idiot, you went on to scream that people were insulting you. It would be fine if you just disagreed, other people have disagreed... but you acted like a moron about it. You continued to repeat the same lies without engaging in any fruitful discussion... you have nothing intelligent to say in the debate. People have answered your questions a dozen times and you continue to ask the same stupid questions. Civil? Did you engage their answers? No. Did you explained why they were wrong? No. You are not a contender in a debate Peter. And, you must know it... I cannot be the first person who points out your intellectual failings to you. We have read your rants for days now and I am sure that this is as much attention as you have ever got from reasonable human beings. And, you have to know it. If you are like this... I am not the only person who feels like this, not will I be the last person because something is lacking in your reasoning that cannot be fixed.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/04/10 2:56 PM EST
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Poor Peter the Victim
Peter, Peter, Peter. I first responded to you regarding your ridiculous assertion that QuAIA's actions violated "the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, The Canadian Human Rights Act and the Anti-Terrorism Act." I have kept my comments to that line of thought. You're asserting that QuAIA has broken the law and therefore should not be permitted in the parade (and arrested too). Which means they would be censored by the likes of you - part of a group of bullies who would deny another group their right to express legitimate, if uncomfortable, speech. THAT is the essence of what's being discussed here, and that's why you draw my criticism. Everything else you spew is a smoke screen trying to cover up the fact that you feel this group should be censored because you don't agree with what they are saying.
Dan, Toronto ON
05/04/10 3:04 PM EST
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@ Dan sorry for just point that out
it could explain why the City or Sponsors might see that and might think it might be a issue and could explain why they are talking about taking away the $$$$$ for example and why even the real Anti- Gay forces in City Hall for example are using it for their advantage( and that's rather sick) and no that is not censorship for pointing that out or censoring anyone to that matter.
Peter, Toronto ON
05/04/10 3:26 PM EST
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Zezi don't like the taste of your own medicine
Zezi I believe the someone here labeled me the Israel Lobby and Zezi you were using personal insults on this matter like in any information that disproved your point like the J Street example or anything on Apartheid South Africa like your last one and the grade 5 education or even some calling me a labeling me lobbyist sorry if that does sound like a witch hunt . It playing fire with fire and you got a taste of your own medicine and you don't like and I don't like it either.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/04/10 3:39 PM EST
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Fuck you, "Giorgio"
This man is an enemy of our communities, and regardless of how we stand on QuAIA in Pride I hope most of us agree this is a dispute we can fight out amongst ourselves without having a mayoralty candidate wage a campaign on our backs. This is simple ant-gay opportunism, by one of the bottom-feeders of Toronto politics. Mammoliti has zero credibility on anything resembling human rights and his intervention is a bad joke. If you doubt this, go back in the Ontario Hansard and read the shit he said on Bill 167 when he was an NDP MPP (whom Bob Rae ought to have chucked from caucus). It was horrendous. He makes Rob Ford seem enlightened by comparison, and that's no easy task.
Alex MacLean, Toronto ON
05/04/10 4:42 PM EST
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little Peter
Do you actually think anything you could say would have an effect on me? You are not only delusional about the law, Israel, QaIA, you are also delusional about your abilities. In discussions, a person's abilities are shown, you can tell if someone is smart, if they can follow a logical thought or argument, if they are well informed or, if they are just a screaming lunatic with no substance to them. You would be the last and so you cannot give me a taste of my own medicine. You see, YOU cannot do anything to me because my view of you is below normal. You would be like a ranting lunatic in the corner of Yonge and Bloor, trying to be heard, randomly insulting people, misinformed, blindly following a dogma. It is comical, and you did bring a smile to my face when you thought you had an effect on me. Whatever makes you happy sweetie.
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/04/10 5:04 PM EST
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@ Zezi is really childish lolololololololololol
Really again you childish attitude such as personal insults and name calling just shows that you do have prejudices that is really not my problem I suggest you seek help with that there are many doctors that could help you with that and personal insults and name calling toward someone when they don't agree with you is a common. On intelligence please look up some studies on this I do believe people who can't hear or are blind can be equality intelligent as anyone else we just have different ways in expressing it and it might be alien to most be we have find ways around it. Zezi I've been dealing with people like you all my life and NO YOU DON'T SCARE ME AT ALL since you like to anyone down because they are different and that is really sick the cards you are playing
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/04/10 5:30 PM EST
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I am not the one
who uses "lolololololol" followed by an angry rant. You see how I get to you and you don't get to me? You are not "different" sweetie, you are just not smart... there is nothing special about that ... there is only something "special" about that...
zezi, Toronto Ontario
05/04/10 5:47 PM EST
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Really Zezi ??
Zezi, You Don't Scare Me or anyone who does this and this is just really really really sick then. I do hold a Masters degree in History and Yes Zezi that makes me rather intelligent about the past and the lessons from the past. Please if this gives you a turn on my mocking people then you need help and these people might help you {http://www.camh.net/} I really don't care about your opinion is but they way you act it just childish and you also can't tell intelligence by comment forums such as here on Xtra but if the QuAIA does allow this in their tricks against people they don't agree with then it tells a lot how low it PR people go
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/04/10 6:09 PM EST
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okay just one more
There's just no way I can believe Peter's claim that he has a Master's degree in history, I could believe he likes to watch the History Channel but that's about it. To be honest all the way through our back and forth I was wondering what could possibly explain the incoherence of his posts, his inability to use logic and the great trouble he had trying to form and respond to arguments and his complete lack of debating skills, I also wondered about his writing skills which seemed very poor even for someone who just arrived from a non-english speaking country and was just learning english, I've known many such people who didn't have anywhere near the difficulty Peter did, at most their writing read like it had an accent, I couldn't detect any such "accent" in Peter's writing though I admit I haven't heard every language so I guess that is possible but even then it'd only explain a little bit of his posts. I won't go into all the different theories I came up with to explain Peter's posts, there were many, one such explanation was that he wrote the posts while stoned on something but that didn't seem too likely since he kept at it longer than I thought a drug addict would. I agree with Peter that being deaf and/or blind isn't an intellectual disability but that doesn't explain his posts either, I could understand that he thought QuAIA should be banned but that was about it. His inability to understand that debate is about responding to others' arguments also made me wonder what could explain that, I considered many things that I won't get into here, I'm sure those following the back and forth have some theories of your own. Anyways Peter if you're going to lie about your education at least pick a more believable lie, someone who achieved a Master's degree from a legitimate university should be able to form logical arguments, use language effectively and debate way better than you've shown you're capable of.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
05/04/10 8:09 PM EST
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To Danilo, re: Hamas
I gather that your argument is, implicitly, that Hamas is bad. I don't think anybody here disagrees except, perhaps, the Zionists who love Hamas because it gives them a great excuse to demonize the Palestinian people as a whole and, in turn, to justify apartheid. And the Zionists' policies/project, of course, is precisely what led to the creation of Hamas; Hamas was founded in 1987, forty years after (and in reaction to) the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Progressives oppose Israeli apartheid for the same reason they oppose Hamas: Neither are good for Palestinians, and especially LGBT Palestinians. Progressives also understand that getting rid of Hamas is inseparable from getting rid of apartheid; both have to go because they are mutually reinforcing. So, Danilo, do you have any additional red herring arguments (http://tinyurl.com/39554sq) you'd like to throw onto the pile?
Rick, London Ontario
05/04/10 8:17 PM EST
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@ Rich kind of sounds like Zezi
So you get judgments from comment broads? Sorry sometimes I do think faster then I type it happens to everyone. Were did you get your degree from then? since you seem to a Major or Masters in Propaganda and Childish attitudes, but it just cards that you employ for censorship but nice try even with the dual personality you seem to have but that's when you call yourself Zezi , eh! Rich and funny thing this is the same that a another nasty bigots use the same cards and same ploys, kind of sounds like National Socialist Germany or people in Salem, Massachusetts in 1692 when they scream witch.
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/04/10 8:32 PM EST
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Even Estonia’s has apartheid regime
Wow I found this link rather interesting about Estonian Apartheid I wonder does the Anti-Israel group(QuAIA) might have something to explain when they think Israel is a Apartheid State and only one {http://rt.com/Politics/2009-05-26/_Estonia_has_an_apartheid_regime_.html}
Peter from, Toronto ON
05/05/10 2:07 AM EST
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Pride is about having fun and not this crap
Pride is when we come out and celebrate of being Gay and have fun for being who we are I think the politics should not be in Pride, groups such as the QuAIA want to take fun out of this and yes there are a few who want to go back to the grassroots, but why? We won and its a Party and I also think if you want to protest there is Queen's Park or even University campus and don't you people have Israel Apartheid Week? I think politics should stay out of Pride this really sounds like QuAIA is just hijacking Pride for their own agenda and they should be ban for trying to hijack Pride and turn it into a extension of Israel Apartheid Week.
Ben, Toronto Ontario
05/05/10 2:43 AM EST
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Pride is political- a diverse rainbow of LGBT
Ben you totally misunderstand Pride. It's very essence is political so you cannot say there should be no politics. Sure there is fun and celebration of being LGBT--there has always been that aspect. But not to the point that "politics should stay out of Pride." It is still a very political and real event for political expression whether that be frustration of gaybashing or queer oppression worldwide. You do know I hope that there are International Grand Marshals for human rights? Politics and protest are at the very heart of "pride" as are celebration. Partying has become more of a commercial venture in the past decade promoted by companies, bars, dance clubs, city tourist officials etc. If that were the only reason for pride I for one would be greatly saddended. One can always party and drink (as alas many do most of their lives) but to show pubically how diverse a rainbow group the LGBT is and how wonderful that is for it is Pride's essence. Sanitize the diversity and the political aspect and you have nothing much left (BTW many political& religious groups march in Pride--from Conservatives to Quakers and Jews; from cops to flamboyant drag queens (some with a political message). Keep Pride open, diverse and all-encompassing. This group of queers against soem of Israel's policies is one of many international human rights groups marching. You don't have to support any of these very dihttp://www.xtra.ca/public/Toronto/ImageVerifier.axd?uid=2fbd69c4-6e3b-43bd-8559-f5ac2fdf2671verse groups to merely let them march by with a few placards.BTW rights for our trans brothers and sisters have yet to be included under basic Ontario Human Rights legislation. Alas, there are always battles to be fought for LGBT rights as well as partying to celebrate our past victories.
james dubro, toronto ontario
05/05/10 8:07 AM EST
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Apartheid
As recently as 2005, Palestinian refugees were banned from taking up employment in 70 professions. Today, the number of restricted professions stands at 20 and includes senior medical, legal and engineering careers. Palestinians cannot legally buy a house or apartment Sounds like Apartheid to me. but wait, this is Lebanon we're talking about. Queers against Lebanese Apartheid anyone? Oh the hypocrisy.
JohnTor, Toronto Ontario
06/25/10 4:06 PM EST
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