Minor tension at Toronto Pride parade over Queers Against Israeli Apartheid
PRIDE / Police ask people wearing Jewish Defense League T-shirts to get back to their group
Xtra / National / Tuesday, July 06, 2010
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The chief controversy at this year's Toronto Pride parade, about the presence of Queers Against Israeli Aparthied (QuAIA) and Pride Toronto's initial effort to ban the group, did not go entirely unnoticed.

The Kulanu (Jewish gay group) contingent and the QuAIA contingent were staged only about 75 metres apart on Bloor St. Each group was much larger than last year. There was some shouting and posturing back and forth, and police stepped in briefly. They asked a small group of people wearing Jewish Defense League T-shirts to get back to their group.

In the end, everything worked out just fine.

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Reader Comments


 
Kulanu and QuAIA
First of all, I will congratulate both Kulanu and QuAIA for participating in the parade. With the Kulanu group, I think I saw a straight Jewish contingent with a few gays intermeshed. QuAIA and the unions did a great job organizing their joint groups to promote free speech first, and then oppose Israeli Apartheid. Yes, I did see supporters who carried signs about other injustices in the world including Iran. See link for both groups: http://www.youtube.com/user/skinnydipper08
SD, Toronto ON
07/06/10 7:08 PM EST
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Its a human rights issue; its a queer rights issue
There are two basic points as for why QuAIA's messaging is indeed a queer right's issue. 1) Queers and trans people exist in every society, therefore whenever any group is oppressed on the basis of religion, class or race (as in the present case) then queers and trans people in that society will necessarily be oppressed as well. Oftentimes they are treated especially worse by the oppressors, and there is some evidence of that in the case of Israel's oppression of the Palestinians. 2) Israel itself has made this a queer issue through its "Rebranding" campaign. One goal of the Rebranding campaign is to "brand" Israel as a state with a relatively progressive outlook on LGBT rights in order to distract from its poor (and worsening) human rights record in the West Bank and Gaza, not to mention the discrimination and segregation that it imparts on its own Arab Israeli citizens. As queers we cannot accept this; we cannot allow Israel to abuse the Palestinians and expropriate their land and resources in our name.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/06/10 7:18 PM EST
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Success
Both groups showed up and made their points peacefully. That's how it should be. The fact that some people are still trying to destroy Pride at City Council by pulling its funding is disgusting. Kulanu marched and that's great, but I think they should now make a STRONG statement that Pride should not be defunded.
Todd, Toronto On
07/06/10 7:22 PM EST
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Queers Want Free Speech?
It's news to me that queers want freedom of speech. Why are people routinely dragged into the HRC "courts" for making anti-queer remarks? Think it about carefully - you can't have it both ways.
gideon, toronto ontario
07/07/10 12:41 AM EST
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Gay Rights And Free Speech
I don't completely agree with the argument that lgbt owe free speech for gaining rights. Look around the world, and see that the places with the most open anti-gay hate speech, and a lot of it, have the least gay equality, visibility and rights. This was the case in the past with places that now have general equality. Positive changes for gays(and for Jews and other misunderstood minorities) came about via a thoughtful, reasoned, educated, discussion. The more such a discussion has become the social norm, equality has taken hold as people see no logical reason it should be otherwise. I don't believe our rights and justice as gays and lesbians came about because hate speech was as free-flowing and unfettered as vomit after a drinking binge. I know what the other view may argue at this point. They'll say that "gay" itself, the very notion was offensive to people. I re-iterate, that a reasoned discussion has shown us and will continue to show, that there's no logical reason that the position of respect and equality for gay persons should be offensive. This has been the main way our rights have moved forward.
Clint Babula, Thunder Bay Ontario
07/07/10 2:35 AM EST
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oh Man!
Who is the hot man standing with the QuAIA banner wearing the keffiyeh? YUM!
J Roman, Toronto ON
07/07/10 8:53 AM EST
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There is free speech in Israel
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/three-jaffa-men-charged-with-beating-kidnapping-transgender-brother-1.300573
Ray, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 9:21 AM EST
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More free speech from Israel.
More free speech from Israel. What is the big deal here in Canada about reporting about Israel? Read the Israel media, for God's sake. http://www.haaretz.com/haaretz-authors-edition/the-colors-of-racism-1.293669
Ray, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 9:27 AM EST
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Rope
Give the Zionists enough rope and they'll hang themselves. Those bruisers from the Jewish Defense League looked about as queer as Charles Bronson. I feel sorry for them in a way because blind faith in any system usually means being blind to its issues. No one is suggesting that there should be an end to the Israeli State, no one is comparing Israel to the rest of the Middle East. If Israel is so progressive, they would probably be most welcoming to making the country more equitable. Things are probably easier to change in Israel than say Iraq. Once Israel gets it shit together, maybe those hard working people from QuAIA will start a group focusing on Iraq, Morocco or Algeria or a group focusing on knitting...who cares what they do, as long as our community stays engaged politically. I feel sorry for the people in Kulanu, they seem like nice folk, but their fear of the truth makes me worry about how they get their points across. If they decide to surround themselves with bruisers and bratty high school boys, they will continue to lose credibility. I like the bubbies though; they are sweet and probably make one hell of a chicken soup! Still, you'd think they had better things to do.
loki, Toronto ON
07/07/10 11:09 AM EST
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Matt, you are not getting it!
Matt, it's not about free speech. It's not about the right to say offensive things, or wrong things, it's about hateful, unfair speech in a gay pride parade, where everyone should feel safe and welcome. When you bash the Jewish state, the hatred created spills over to all of us Jews. You know very well that hateful words turn into hateful actions, and before you know it, innocent people like Matthew Sheppard wind up dead.
Carol, Toronto ontario
07/07/10 11:15 AM EST
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Clint
A few issues are: what is a reaonsable argument? when do we stop talking with people who vehemently disagree with us and try to reach the rest of the population? And, I don't think that queer people think that all speech is alright. I certainly support hate speech laws. Criticizing a state, specially one that has so much to be criticized for and which presents itself as our friend, who benefits from our country's support, must be part of free speech as long as it doesn't attack a people. QuAIA doesn't attack a people, not the Jewish people, nor the entire Israeli population, and as a result, it is not hate speech, it isn't even close to inappropriate for a parade or for a society to identify what Israel does with apartheid. They should have thought about how a big tall wall containing a population would look like to the world? They should be looking for peace and stop the settlements. They should seek to de-escalate the situation.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 11:26 AM EST
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Carol, WTF?
People seem to forget that Pride Parades are still very much political events where LOTS of things expressed are found to be offensive to some segment of society. Consider the drag queens, the nudists, the lesbian feminists, the leather and bdsm folk - all of these things are offensive to our foes (and some "allies"), and their inclusion in the parade is celebrating that political expression. Why in the hell should legitimate criticism of a domestic policy enacted by the State of Israel be any different? It irritates me deeply that the anti-LGBT pro-Israeli lobby believes their sensitivities should be respected by trampling the civil rights of other people.
Dan, Toronto ON
07/07/10 11:46 AM EST
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Kulanu's shame
I am disgusted that Kulanu would allow the anti-LGBT thugs from the Jewish Defense League to march with them at a gay pride event. The JDL refers to the LGBT community as "Sodomite Communists" (see http://jdlcanada.wordpress.com/2010/06/24/boycott-pride-toronto/) and called for violent confrontation at the parade, yet were still welcomed with open arms by Kulanu (meaning "All of Us," including anti-LGBT thugs, but excluding anyone who disagrees with the party line). The should be deeply ashamed for bringing a clearly violent faction into the parade.
Dan, Toronto ON
07/07/10 11:58 AM EST
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to Dan of Toronto
Good, now you know how LGBT Jews feel when a group like QuAIA is invited to participate in the Pride. After all, they are essentially calling for an end to Israel, even if that's not how they put it. Every time this issue comes up, the anti-Semitic rhetoric on LGBT sites and blogs goes up, and I seriously wonder if I should move to Israel, instead of marching with anti-Semites in the parade.
An American, Brooklyn NY
07/07/10 12:33 PM EST
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to the American In Brooklyn
Israel is an apartheid state. Stating that is not anti-semitic. Israel can remedy it's policies and remain Israel just as South Africa abolished apartheid and remained South Africa. If you want to move to Israel you should spend some time in the Occupied West Bank or watch Palestinian families be evicted from East Jerusalem neighbourhoods like Silwan or Sheikh Jarrah. You should go there to see what happens "on the other side" not to simply reinforce your polarized view.
J Roman, Toronto ON
07/07/10 12:47 PM EST
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Oh please, American
Not all LGBT Jews tow the rightwing conservative Israeli party line.. many of the organizers of QuAIA are Jewish themselves. And they have never called for an end of Israel - that's progadandist hyperbole. You also hit on the other canard, that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitism. It's not.
Dan, Toronto ON
07/07/10 12:49 PM EST
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Gidion...Gay groups DON'T support censorship.
Gideon, No mainstream queer groups have EVER advocated censorship. To the extent that individuals have tried it, queer groups have refused to support them. The December 9th Coalition refused to endorse a BC Human Rights complaint against a series of virulently homophobic letters to the Nelson Daily News. Their lack of support forced the BCHRC to drop the complaint against these homophobes. EGALE refused to get involved in Human Rights Complaints against a Catholic Newspaper and against homophobic letters to the editor in Alberta. And just recently in Britain, the crown was forced to drop hates crimes charges against a homophobe activist after OutRate's Peter Tatchell announced he would testify for the defense. If gay groups are willing to stand up for free speech for our own most offensive critics, I'll be damned if we're going to support censorship of Israel's critics.
Heather, Vancouver bc
07/07/10 4:21 PM EST
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Israeli Apartheid
Everyone should be protesting against Israeli Apartheid.
jckfrmsincty, Loveland United States
07/07/10 4:47 PM EST
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Canada shows it's Pride..sorry i mean HATE.
You poor deluded people think the average person in Palestine or any other of Isreals enemies including Iran would march for you have another thing coming. You would be stoned,lashed and beheaded to a cheering audience! Unless you have lived in Isreal you really can not comment on whats its like there, nowhere in Canada has their been car bombs, children stabed while waiting for the school bus,and missiles strikes against you. Furthermore maybe before you start condeming another nation take care of your own first! Make sure you have full equality there, make sure everyone in Canada is accepting of gays and their rights, and while your at go ask the first americans what they think of Canada past and present!
Quinn, New York City New York
07/07/10 6:13 PM EST
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This is what you don't get Quinn
I don't see what your point is.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 7:27 PM EST
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in the immortal words of Lillian Hellmann
Since when did we have to agree with people to defend them from injustice?
Craig, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 7:29 PM EST
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carol
Thanks for your input carol, your bang on.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 7:35 PM EST
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How to boycott Israel, a must see LoL
boycotting Israel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c&feature=related
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 8:00 PM EST
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Just watch us Jamie
It has already started... we might not boycott all products, but we might chose AMD (regardless of its dealings with Israel) over Intel. There goes Ahava, Israel's agricultural exports, etc etc. We don't have to bring Israel's to a standstill, we just have to significantly decrease the demand for its products. But, if you are right, I guess there is nothing to worry about right?
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 8:34 PM EST
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tam
Tam, make a dent, it wont make a difference, I assure you. I would bet my forest hill home, 2 bmws, my cottage and motor boat on it. p.s I march regularly for Ocap in our city. They love my charitable donations. Tam, I am so glad you took the whole video in. How about those Israeli' offering free healthcare. Yup, thats apartheid. You,dan, Elle....brilliant. We cant wait to watch Quaia all year long marching for these rights, because it means so much to you. University ave, and more. We as a city, all ethnicities are viewing this as entertainment. Really, I promise.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 9:13 PM EST
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you tell that...
to South Africa...
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/07/10 9:26 PM EST
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@Tam
really? Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah you do know that AMD does use Intel's technologies? You can't even run most computers without them. Did Super Genius like your self even knew that?
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/07/10 10:57 PM EST
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ashamed
i am ashamed at how people are taking a simple issue and turning it into an issue of hate and racism. QuAIA has a right to let their voices be heard and Jews have the right to defend themselves. but using a term that is false and misleading and discriminatory is also wrong. The Jews were right to point out that QuAIA would not exactly be welcomed in Palestine and Israel is indeed a gay friendly country. For those unsure of what QuAIA says on Israel's right to exist i direct you to their site and look under the section of FAQs, you will see that they are ambiguous in the answer which is scary. As gay people i would have assumed that QuAIA would be more concerned with fighting homophobia in the Mid East and the killing of gays in Muslim countries. would have been more concerned with saving those two teenagers who were hung in Iran for being gay or fighting Hamas whose leader called being gay a mental disease, but if they believe that their limited time is better spent attacking Israel then that is their right. But the booing and jeering from the crowd should have been a sign to QuAIA, you are loosing credibility and ground in the community, fight homophobia, fight for justice for gays in the Middle East.
nikolai, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 12:30 AM EST
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tell us about it
Ok Nikolai, I'm gonna call your bluff... please tell me your ten-brilliant point plan for "saving gays in the middle east"? (I notice you only use the word "gay" and "homophobia" hence you ignore trans people and other parts of the queer spectrum) Please, tell us how you plan to enact positive change for queers that you've never met in Jordan, Syria, Saudi... are you capable of even telling us the basic details of the present status of queers in the middle east? Do you know which Arab countries are relatively more tolerant towards LGBT people? Is the situation relatively better in Syria or Jordan? Since the situation is significantly better in some Arab countries versus others, how would you approach those situations differently? Since you are so concerned with the problems facing queers and trans people in the Middle East, I'm sure you've spent countless hours thinking through these complex issues. I'm sure you have also been in communication with queer groups in the Middle East to ask them how you can be supportive. Please tell us, how did they respond to your query? Because if you can't answer these basic questions in a reasonable manner, I'm going to have to conclude that you don't actually give a shit about queers in Arab countries, you just like to use that as a talking point to bash QuAIA because you don't like it when people criticize Israel.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/08/10 1:44 AM EST
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Bias.
This is so fucking BIASED. I get how PTP has a mission statement to set love free (cue the guitar and bon fire), but to immerse yourself into the Pride parade with a microphone and actually argue and preach Xtra's mission statement with the opposition is an insult to quality and fair journalism. I watched the Christian Fundamentalist channel the other night. Listening to you, Matt Mills, I couldn't tell the difference between the Christian Fundamentalists and you. Say, here's a new term for you, Mills, and the entire Pink Triangle Press - a political organization that pushes an aggressive agenda and CENSORS opposing opinions and twists the popular rhetoric to persuade the population. How's "Queer Fundamentalism" sound? Geez - you guys are on a slippery slope. As a friend of mine put it, Xtra is the FOX NEWS of gay journalism. Hypocritical, pompous, self-serving, and disgusting. You're not my community newspaper, and you don't speak for me.
Karl, Newmarket ON
07/08/10 4:07 AM EST
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Bias, like every other media outlet
So Karl, what *exactly* do you find hypocritical about Xtra/PTP? EVERY media organization has a bias - it's the nature of the business. When I read the National Post, I see a deeply right wing conservative bias. When I read the Toronto Star, I see a mildly right wing conservative bias. Both organizations are clearly pro-Israel in their coverage and have smeared and vilified QuAIA as being a "hate group" for exercising their right to free speech. How has Xtra CENSORED anybody? Seriously, name some examples, or are you just angry that their bias doesn't match yours?
Dan, Toronto ON
07/08/10 8:08 AM EST
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nikolai re sav
Nikolai, thanks for weighing in, your absolutely right. Sav is trying to pick a petty arguement because you wrote your comment and didnt say LGBT, this is further evidence, of how many on the post are simply incapable of mature dialogue that would move this issue forward. I have been hearing also how the shock value of the JDL taking part in the parade has offended many. Well, I can't say for certain, but maybe they just cleverly wanted to make the point, that Free speeech, doesn't mean Any speech. Terms that Quaia and some leaders in the Gay commmunity have used include statements that Israeli is commiting genocide, are terrorists, etc. While all along, Quaia is trying to separate the issues by ssuggesting they are "Only" attacking Israeli policies, not Jews that support Israels right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. Freedom of speech movement is a splinter group of Quaia, who wanted to use a less polarizing term like Israeli aparthied to pave the way for Quaia. if those in the parade were offended by the Jdl, maybe the point was, they are allowed to counter act offensive terms, and follow the freedom of speech our community is stating is everyones right. It was clever. For those who accuse JDL of homophobia, they marched peacefully in the parade support Gay Jewish rights, they "lost there way, and completely listened to the police when they were gentley directed back to there spot. I have mentioned before how these few guys, have taken on the task of protecting jewish cementaries, and synagogues here in Toronto that are vandelized with anti Israeli messages on a regular basis. Now tell me, these guys who help to repair descrated jewish cemetaries here in Toronto, and Canada, are nothing but provacateurs. Queers, want freedom of speech, it opens up many groups to sticking the word queer before their cause and use the media laden pride event as their platform. Free media coverage, for All.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 9:16 AM EST
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LOVE
Can't We all just stop fighting and LOVE one another. haha All this fighting and tension is giving me a headace. lol
JJ, TORONTO ONTARIO
07/08/10 9:27 AM EST
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take an aspirin jj , then go to a Jewish doctor
I also think it is noteworthy to point out that when we see on the news people burning another Countries Flag, when we see them wish the leaders of those Countries dead , by drawing pictures of Bush for instance and then setting those images on fire, suggests to me that they are are as Quaia says "just attacking "Goverment policies", but suggesting death personally to the leaders. Not Goverment Policies, only. Now, thats violence. There is a reason a billion dollars is paid on security for leaders to be protected, many protestesters plot crimes although time, and hide in the crowd of so called peaceful activists, whoa re simply sheilding them and condoning they extremists steps some take for there cause. Violence is usually proceeded by hurtful language to anothers race. Look up the riots in Christie Pits, that took place in Toronto. In the 80's there was a news article showing a sign that was found in Wasaga beach, that said "No Dogs, and Jews allowed". now, if you want to state that Jewishness is not related to condemnation of Israel, go ahead, it is both ignorant and naive.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 9:33 AM EST
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no Jamie
No Jamie... I mentioned that Nikolai ignored part of the queer spectrum, but that wasn't my main point... you ignored everything else I said. My point was that you, Nikolai the rest of you yammering about queer rights in the Arab and Muslim world have no idea what you are talking about. You've never studied the issue. You've never reached out to anyone in that part of the world to find out how (or IF) you can help them. You claim to condemn the treatment of LGBT people in that part of the world but really it is just a talking point to deflect criticism of Israel. Because all you really care about is Israel.
Sav, Toronto ON
07/08/10 9:38 AM EST
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JDL and their "good work"
What was offensive about the JDL partaking in the parade is that they openly advocated violence and confrontation, and they are an ANTI-LGBT organization to boot. By Pride Toronto rules, they would not be able to march as a stand alone group in the parade. They are the ones bullying and willing to trample the civil rights of a group that disagrees with them, not QuAIA. That Kulanu let these violent thugs march with them is disgusting. And really, that that the JDL also repair desecrated Jewish cemeteries (while admirable) is completely beside the fucking point - it does not excuse their other thuggish violent actions and rhetoric. Just as with Israel and its Apartheid regime, doing one good deed does not inoculate you for all other criticism.
Dan, Toronto ON
07/08/10 9:44 AM EST
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dan
Dan, if they were being "violent" the police would have escorrted them away. If they were homophobic, they would not have been marching peacefully for Jewish and Israeli gay rights. They would not march in the gay pride parade and contrict any kind of stand on homophobia to march with us. They were exercising their freedom of speech, and their right to support Jewish queers that are Pro Israeli. You wanted freedom of speech, stop whining and making stuff up. Offensive language, is hurtful all around. But to blatently lie on this post by suggesting they acted violent, is a lie. The police would have asked them to leave. Go protest next year against the JDL rights to march in support of Pro Jewish and Israeli gay rights. As I said, they would not have compromised homophobic values you claim they are about, to march next to, and with their Jewish LGBT community. Free Speech.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 10:10 AM EST
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sav
Sav, how can you say, you know what I researched? That I haven't studied the issue. Don't project. You don't know what my degree is in. Stop whining with dan, unless you are one in the same. How do you know I haven't reached out to anyone one persecuted by muslim homophobia. Your Scrambling, because you have nothing left. Cheap shots and accusations, is all you got. Now thats intelligent. why don't you reply "Oh, Yeah". Same thing. LoL
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 10:17 AM EST
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no Jamie, I'm serious and it's true!
You really have not studied this issue, and I know for a fact you don't know anything about it! Please, name for me the major Arab LGBT organizations in the middle east? Which Arab and Muslim countries are relatively better when it comes to LGBT rights? How does Syria compare to Iran for example? How would you approach building a relationship of solidarity between queers in the Middle east and queers in Canada? Seriously, take a stab at these questions... we'd all just be curious to hear your thoughts on the subject.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/08/10 11:06 AM EST
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sav
sav, I have answers to all those questions....However I have a life and a job, and do not have the time to humor you and demonstrate my intellect. It is advisable for you to broaden your researc ability and check out all the humantarian aid Israel does for all the the middle east countries that victimize their own through sharia law, and other brutal actions. Theur is a youtube video of Iran burying two Lesbian women about to their neck, and have the whole community stoning them to death, for being caught in the act. I have iranina friends that have fled to Canada, because of the middle east brutality, and intolerance to being LGBT. If you claim you know so much, why aren't you there helping. Or on University street in Toronto Now protesting. I look forward to your contingents protesting all through the year, the genocide you claim Israel is commiting to the Palestinians. Or is your free speech and advocacy only worth riding the coat tales of a pre established pride event. You are a hypocrite my friend. Go mobilize, since you claim to be an expert.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 11:26 AM EST
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Again with the reading comprehesion
Jamie: Try again, or continue to lie some more. Did I say they acted violently at the parade? No. I said they openly advocated violence and confrontation - they certainly were spoiling for a fight, and they were the only ones reported to have been turned back by the police for their provocative behaviour. (note, free speech doesn't cover intimidation and threats) JDL's homophobic attitudes are well known - and as such they would not be able to march as a stand alone group in the parade as per Pride Toronto rules. That they were on good behaviour for the day does not change their homophobic, thuggish nature, regardless of what you suggest.
Dan, Toronto ON
07/08/10 11:32 AM EST
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you can't deflect the issue Jamie
It's really funny Jamie to see how desperate you are to defend Israel's policies. First of all no one accused Israel of "genocide", we accused it of apartheid.. the reason you are changing the subject is because you cannot make a rational argument that Israel is not an apartheid state. In the West Bank, Israeli Jews live in Jewish-only settlements built illegally on Palestinian land. These settlements are connected by a super-modern highway system that only Israeli Jews are allowed to use -- Palestinians are forbidden from driving on them, even though many of the travel right past Palestinian populated areas. This is not to mention that Jewish Israelis are granted full citizenship rights, right to assembly, speech, etc. Meanwhile Palestinians live under Israeli military rule without any of these rights. Palestinians are forced to live on ever-decreasing swaths of land, while their water and other resources are expropriated for Jewish use. Further, they are restricted to using a transportation system with roads in deep disrepair, they are forced to travel through a complex series of checkpoints that is wasteful and draining on their economy and most of the checkpoints are between Palestinian areas, they have nothing to do with security! I've passed through them myself. That is almost exactly what happened in South Africa and it is apartheid! And this thing you say about Israel giving humanitarian aid... wow, that is ridiculous. What Israel actually does in Gaza is that it blocks almost everything from getting in, whether it be Gaza's trade partners or humanitarian relief. Further, Israel blocks Gaza from exporting ANYTHING, so it completely starves the Gazans from building up their economic infrastructure. Then occasionally Israel allows a handful of goods in from outside donors... and then Israel says "look at our nice humanitarian gestures... we are so kind to Gaza!" Ha! What a rip-off.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/08/10 11:59 AM EST
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racist Jamie, racist
I get the feeling that a lot of Jewish doctors, just like a lot of jewish people in general, do not support the state of Israel. But, the point is that there are doctors of all religions and ethnic backgrounds here Jamie. To say otherwise is simply racist, which doesn't surprise me in your case.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 12:46 PM EST
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dan, sav, tam
Dan, the Jdl were marching peacefully for my LGBT Jewish rights here and in Israel. Say what you want. If you are not exagerating they would have been asked to leave or a formal complaint would have been made by the police if they actively intimidated anyone. the fear is in your head, not their actions. They marched peacefully in solidarity with their fellow Jewish queers. If they were homophobic, they wouldn't have literally embraced us. Sav, you are having a political arguement with yourself. Israel has those policies in place due to the unprecented violence of suicide bombing attacks, and other terroist actions that they have to combat daily. If the Palestians want a security wall removed, or any other kind of living issue they have, they need to stop voting in a goverment that calls for the death and destruction of Israel. This is a no arguement debate. It is simple. Look at the g20 here. Excessive force, yes...why their were terrorists in the midst of peaceful demonstartors. You really expect the police to make nice with everyone thatquietly condones violence. The protestors after condemed police force, but were cheering for people acting out against them, or allowing these criminal activists to hide in the midst of innocent protesters. I am happy you are anti Israeli, your arguements, have no foundation when you do not condone the palestian violence on innocent Israeli citizens. My previous posts, defend my position with integrity, and facts. Tam, "racist, racist"..sticks and stones. you are an absolute joke on the post. Many have told you. You surely need your medication adjusted. On my way to donate to Ocap, and the Israeli national fund. Making a decent living helps. You should try it sometime. Or, more importantly , Why is it you won't live amongst the Palestinians as freedom fighters?
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 1:41 PM EST
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@ Sav @ Tam
You do know that Israeli's are not allowed into Palestinian Area too ? As for the highways they were giving to Israeli control under the Oslo Accords and from this the West Bank is divided up into three Areas and those Areas would go under Israeli control and one of those Areas does included the bypass roads. Area A in under the Control of the Palestinian National Authority. Area B is under Israeli Control, and Area C is under Israeli Civil control and this does included those highways and the Areas the settlements are located. Guess what Sav and Tam the Palestinian National Authority did sign this and agreed to it. Yeah of course it Apartheid. It just proves how little you really understand about this conflict. Attack me and call me a racist all you want but it just show how little you really know about this conflict. Sav as for checkpoints I was in New York the other day and I had to travel through checkpoints at the airport and also you have to go through them at almost any border crossing in the world, these are nothing new since almost any country seems to have them. As for walls USA has one with Mexico, and even Spain has them with their African neighbors. Tam don't call people racist when they don't agree with you after all your white hood is showing
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/08/10 1:41 PM EST
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Peter
ALL JEWISH SETTLEMENTS IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK INCLUDING EAST JERUSALEM ARE ILLEGAL !!! Palestinians got along very well for centuries with the Jewish population before the Zionist "War of Independence" (and don't bother with "it was the Arab nations that declared war" what do you expect? they knew very well that the Zionists would not be happy with any of the partitions the UN presented) stole the land with the aid of the British sell-outs and began their ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Peter - all those other walls you mention are just as abhorrant as the Israeli Apartheid Wall and that "checkpoint" you passed through at the New York airport can hardly be compared to the multitude of checks Palestinians endure every day, many times a day. I've passed through some of them myself with a Palestinian -they made him take off his coat, shoes, belt, searched his pockets, waved a wand, walked through a gate 3 or 4 times while all I had to do was flash my Canadian passport - I have more freedoms than he does in his own country. On the occasion of leaveing Israel / Palestine I was on a minibus taxi and the only two people pulled off the cab before entering the airport were the two Arab people. I've stayed in Hebron (Al-Khalil)and while it is true that no Israelis are allowed within the city, the city itself is circled in wire fencing and has multiple towers and cameras focused on the city at all times. It was unreal to me that people ARE FORCED to live like this 24/7. Imagine for a second that one day your living your life as a normal person, working your fields, raising a family next thing your under the occupation of a foreign entity and you're one of the "lucky ones" that AT LEAST wasn't driven off your land living as a refugee in a foreign country.
J Roman, Toronto ON
07/08/10 3:45 PM EST
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checkpoints
If Israelis are prevented entering Palestinian areas, then they are prevent by Israel not the Palestinians. I was in the West Bank and I entered the Palestinian areas... Ramallah, Jenin, Hebron, Bethlehem, etc.... with no hindrance from the Palestinians. Of course, I had to travel through Israel's ridiculous checkpoints. The main thing to understand about the checkpoints is that they are NOT between Palestinian areas and Israeli areas. They are in between Palestinian areas, preventing Palestinians from traveling among their own cities and villages. That has nothing to do with security and everything to do with power. Why should millions of Palestinians have to pass through an Israeli checkpoint everyday just to go to work? That is not the same thing as the airport Peter and you know it. What good is Area "A" "B" "C" when Palestinians are not allowed to control who moves among their own areas?? Israel has never fulfilled its obligations under Oslo, everyone knows that Oslo is over, Israel only relies on Oslo when they think it helps to justify one of their military polices. Otherwise, they ignore it completely.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/08/10 3:49 PM EST
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It seems sad to me Jamie...
It seems sad to me that you look to be embraced by evangelists, the thugs at the JDL and the right. The JDL called us hamasphrodites when they sent a post to come to the parade. You justify that Jamie. And, it is people like you who brought that into our peaceful parade. As far as I being a joke Jamie, only you and Peter and I am sure now the entire bunch of pro-Israel lunatics will too... but you see, unlike you, I don't need to be loved by people who are insane. It is racist to imply that all doctors are jewish.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 4:40 PM EST
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poor tam
Tam, your scrambling again. I never said all doctors are Jewish, however it would benefit you to watch the "how to boycott Israel" clever video which was posted to help you out. When you twists statements such as I implied all doctors are Jewish, we can all see how lonely you are , and any interaction you can get, no matter what insanietys you spew, is the attention you are desparately grappling with. now, tam I will pay for any Muslim doctor or therapist you can find to help you. I promise. Regarding the Jdl,they apparently were excercising their freedom of speech which you all wanted. If they did Anything illeagal they should have been charged, or escorted out of the parade. They would not compromise their homophobic beliefs to march is solidarity with LGBT Jews, and they do not need an LGBT Parade to show they take a Pro israeli stand. Again Tam, you target some nice accepting evangelicals that do have family members they love, regardless of their childrens sexuality. If you are going to say "All Evangelicals are homophobic" etc.... Don't be surprise when you here some pro Israelis state "All of Islam is terrorists." Thanks tam for effectively educating people how to hate other groups through generalizations.I would say shame on you, but I won't, I feel bad for your parents who carry have to carry the burden.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 6:14 PM EST
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@J Roman @ Sav
Wow the Wall, funny there are ones in Mexico USA Border and with Spain and it's African neighbors and they are never called the A bomb(FYI: the reason they don't want those people either) . They put it up there to prevent suicide bombers from targeting Israeli Cities oh well I guess Israeli civilians don't really matter to you and read the Oslo Accords Areas B and C are under Israeli control by agreement with the Palestinian National Authority.(denied this all you want but they are)I want to ask both of you this question between 1948 and 1967 Gaza was a part of Egypt and the West Bank was apart of Jordan. So why couldn't either Egypt and Jordan allow the Palestinians to establish a state under their control? Oddly since the PLO was established in 1964 to liberate the West Bank from Jordan and not Israel. You might want to think about this and Yes J Roman your history seem to be wrong in 1948 Arab countries invaded Israel and they fought back and Israel won. If Arab countries accepted the partition then none of this would not have happen and Also you do live "our home on native land" also stolen land and Apartheid? funny how the South Africans copied Canada's Indian Act oh but is always Israel's fault for something and it also interesting that you people never think Canada is a Apartheid. Just saying if they did copy our Indian Act to create Apartheid . I'm just laughing when I read this since you really sound like Politics and the English Language by George Orwell. Just another case
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/08/10 8:04 PM EST
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Peter is having another lapse
The wall with Mexico, however absurd it is, is on US land, not in Mexico's land. I am sure it is also the case for Spain. This type of stupid reasoning is why I usually just ignore you.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 10:03 PM EST
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Jamie
There boy, there.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 10:20 PM EST
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@ Tam
Places such as California, New Mexico,Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Texas and Nevada did belong to Mexico when the United States sweetie sole it by means of war but of course you must be a super genius and you must know this? of course you didn't but you just attack because you can't give a answer or many you could answer this why didn't Egypt or Jordan give the Palestinians statehood when there areas were under their control? I bet you can't answer this since you seem to blame Israel for almost anything
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/08/10 10:31 PM EST
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Tams's reasonig is just
attacking people when she don't agree to agree, funny how you don't like a democratic debate but then again you show your white hood every time you do this you were told this before.
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/08/10 10:36 PM EST
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We have gone through this Peter
There is not agreeing and then there is being confronted with just plain stupidity. Let me explain it to you, slowly, I am not sure that there is a god, so if someone believes in god, I disagree that they can claim that, that is all. You comparing whatever non existen wall in Spain has and the US wall (which is in US soil) with Israel's wall is just, well, plain stupid. There is just not going around it. Here is how I see it, you stop the stupidity, I am a forgiving person, but I don't really think you have much of a choice in the matter.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/08/10 11:55 PM EST
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@ Tam BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
and Tam this is non existed wall in Ceuta and Melilla Spain that borders Africa. One of many that the BBC shows (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8342923.stm) So this is not a Wall? and sweetie this is not stupid but rather reality but of course a Super Genius like yourself still can't even admit to this. You might want to look that the other links that the BBC gives sweetie there are others like Israel's too and those are not a form of Apartheid
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/09/10 12:08 AM EST
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@ Tam I forgot something
Ceuta and Melilla are also places that the Spanish rules and Morocco claims as apart of their country so again you might want to think about what you said
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/09/10 12:12 AM EST
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peter & tam
Peter, excellent points. Tam calls everyone who takes the position Israel has the right to denfend itself....as being Racist. Look and laugh at his previous posts. So, peter you are right tam can't answer an excellent point you make. I hope you don't mind, I will quote you, and ask tam the question again. Tam, " super genius and you must know this? of course you didn't but you just attack because you can't give a answer or many you could answer this why didn't Egypt or Jordan give the Palestinians statehood when there areas were under their control?" yeah Super Genuis is probably going to say Egyptians and jordanians may be racist too? Regardlesss, his answer will be precious, good for a LoL from the lonely woman/ man? stuggling with Israel, or Jewish people existing. Tam, you never did answer the other question either, Why do you choose to live in Canada when you seem to suggest in other posts you have kinships in the middle east...this is your homeland? If not, why don't you in all sincerity go and help them if you care so much? tam are you and Quaia going to pursue your protests in all our canadian seasons? All over Toronto streets? lets's see how much you really care about "Israeli Apartheid"?? Come out, come out, if you are for real? Now tam, I am waiting for your answer, will you let me pay for a muslim therapist/doctor for you?
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/09/10 2:33 AM EST
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Jamie
Go right ahead :)
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/09/10 6:17 AM EST
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Not a wall
Peter... it is, first of all wire, not a wall. It would classify as a barrier. It is still within the legally recognized borders of Spain. What part of that don't you get? This is why you seem like a terrible contender for any debate. I'll tell you something though, just like I am against the expulsion of palestinians from their lands, I am against the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Spain. I think most Jewish people would tell you that the expulsion from Spain was horrible, unjust and devastating, and I would agree. The thing for you Peter is that you always dilute the argument going from the concrete to almost free-association. When you are arguing with someone, it is your job, not everyone else's, to make sure that your argument applies to the situation you are arguing. You can't just find a wall and equate it... you have to make sure it has the same meaning and it is truly analogous. That said, I am against walls and barriers, but those two, are not in any way similar to the Israeli wall. Yours is lazy arguing. You put the onus on everyone else to find the many wholes on your argument when, if you bring them up, they should be better thought out.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/09/10 8:27 AM EST
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The Tweedles
Peter and Jamie are the Tweedles.
J Roman, Toronto ON
07/09/10 8:34 AM EST
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Q&A
Q: Jamie, why do you keep going on about whether a doctor is Jewish or Muslim? A: Because you are a racist.
Sav., Toronto ON
07/09/10 10:50 AM EST
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@Sav
In previous postings Jamie claimed that a friend of his was justified in fearing black youth because he was robbed by one. That fear and stereotyping are the scaffolding upon which racism is built seems to escape him entirely. The label of "jewish doctor" is as insidious as the "black criminal" and the "gay pedophile". Sadly I do not think Jamie gets it.
JG, Toronto ON
07/09/10 11:16 AM EST
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Back to Basics
Although I do believe in freedom of speech, Pride should be an event specifically related to gay causes and issues. Therefor not the correct event for QuAIA and their views. Not saying that they are right or wrong... an other fight for an other day and an other place. The debate will continue I am sure. We are lucky to have achieved gay rights in this country and with the current government, hope we can keep them. Others are not so lucky. Attention should be given to those countries and communities where gays are persecuted and threatened with death... or simply trying to marry... or want to keep their job because they are gay. Those are the types of issues our entire community can embrace and the people who really need our support. We have to stick together and not be splintered by a few who take pleasure out of creating a big fight. It's so true... "United we stand, divided we fall". Even though reevaluation is a good thing from time to time, let's not forget what Pride is all about and why it started in the first place.
Dave, Toronto Ontario
07/09/10 11:33 AM EST
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Hey Dave
Palestinians can't start the fight for LGBT rights until Israel abolishes it's Apartheid policies. It needs to start there Dave. It's hard to fight for gay rights when you don't have even have a state to fight against. The connection is quite clear.
Hey Dave, Toronto ON
07/09/10 11:55 AM EST
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@ Tam @J Roman, @ Sav
@ Tam can you even read and this came from the BBC? and funny how Morocco wants Ceuta and Melilla wants it back from Spain but of course you can't even read that part. @J Roman, @ Sav so why can you answer my question?
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/09/10 1:18 PM EST
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@J Roman, @ Sav so why can you answer my question?
Between 1948 and 1967 Gaza was apart of Egypt and the West Bank was apart of Jordan. Why did not those countries allow the Palestinians to establish a state while under their control? Why can't either of you answer this? Also Sav Jews and Muslims are religions not races, the last group of people to view Jews as a race was the Nazis. You might want to think about that but of course your to busy censoring people to even notice this. Also, labeling people racist, you seem to do this because you can't give a answer.
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/09/10 1:28 PM EST
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And Peter
Spain wants Gibraltar back from England. What is your point? Morroco and Spain get along just swell regardless or don't you know that? And, still, the land is recognized as Spanish territory. This would all mean, Peter, that there is no equivalent to Israel. Those areas, btw, went back and forth between the portuguese and spaniards and the muslim kings all during the middle ages through to the 1600s. The muslims and jews who live in the region have equal rights to christians(completely) and are all spaniards. In that sense, Spain is not occupying another people, oppressing them and trying to get them out to settle christians. Spain has done many terrible things in the past, but you can be sure it doesn't do it anymore.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/09/10 3:42 PM EST
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it is racism
Because it is what befits it best to describe the idea of superiority of an ethnicity over those of others. Jewish are an ethnicity but we don't have an equivalent to racism for racism or for religion. The term racism is being used as an analogy... you should know that, but then again, you are working with a few less marbles than the rest.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/09/10 3:45 PM EST
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Freedom of Speech - Hate Speech - a very fine line
There's a very fine line between freedom of speech and hate speech. I'm in a good? position to say this. I'm of German descent and my grandfather who died earlier this year in Germany, at the age of 100 & 1 month, was always pro-Nazi, even after the war. He was never keen on my Italian ex-wife because she was Italian. He never knew about my current Jewish male partner and my coming out late in life. Everybody should be entitled to their own opinion...their own educated opinion, hopefully. I don't think it's the message that's inflammatory...it's the? way it was said. Why not Queers for a Free Palestine...why center out Israel? It's unfortunate that most people in the parade would not be able to find Israel & Palestine on a map. I think the Nazis were also given Freedom of Speech and were tolerated. Their initial message appealed to the masses, a crushed people (Treaty of Versailles). Look at the aftermath. Both sides share some guilt and some responsibility. Use reason! And being relatively new to the 'gay' lifestyle...I have to say...this parade should be for the LGBTTIQQ2S (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual, Transgendered, Intersexual, Queer, Questioning, 2-Spirited) groups. Let the? others get their own parade. It's queer (pun intended) that a community so sensitive on appropriate speech & terminology can allow a loose canon in their midsts. Have we opened the door for any group? What about fundamental Christian groups? And I know this has probably been said before but would QuAIA be warmly accepted to march in Palestine? I don't know about you...but I can't march for the rights of people who wish to see me dead. And finally...it's always so easy to look in your neighbour's yard and point the finger. Why didn't anybody mention Canada's apartheid; what we have done and are still doing? to the First Nations people. (I suggest this be a new entry into the parade.) Fix and fortify your own house before you decide to throw stones at others.
J B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/09/10 4:34 PM EST
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J B Thomas
J B, I appreciated what you have shared. You make alot of sense.... Welcome to the community!
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/09/10 5:38 PM EST
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J.B.
I think if you don't want to march with QuAIA, it is fine. However, there are miles and miles of distance between calling Israel an apartheid state and hate speech. You see, my italian granma was one big racist and I really disliked her, but her and all of my ancestors, were no where near, nor implicated, in any way in the holocaust. And, if I can call South Africa and apartheid state, I can call Israel and apartheid state. The fact is that Israel's policies are racist (or ethnicists if that is what Peter would rather we use) and they are based on all the same things that made South Africa an apartheid state (even if it is disputable) and so calling it apartheid and thus racist, is exactly what it is. Are you going to tell me that only white supremacists are capable of racism? What is happening in Israel-Palestine is disgusting. People shouldn't treat people like that. I'll tell you what, you suggest a name change, why don't the other side stop calling itself pro-Israel or zionist and start calling themselves anti-palestinian? To me, who has nothing to do with the middle east situation, that is what they behave like.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/09/10 5:40 PM EST
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Jewish and Arab Israelis live in Coca-Cola harmony
Arab Israelis are fully welcomed to live in all parts of Israel in harmony with their Jewish neighbours. Cough, cough. http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/Article.aspx?id=180121
SD, Toronto ON
07/09/10 9:11 PM EST
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@ Tam
You just attack people since you don't even understand anything? or can't even make a point. I think your white hood is showing you seem to be full of hate since you attack anyone that disagrees with you. J B Thomas has a good point but I really doubt you can see it and again you are the people that George Orwell warns us about, you are another classic case. Sweetie you are truing into the censorship on this topic. I find most interesting that you can't even tell us what is racist in Israel's policies since Canada or any other Western nation seems to have the same polices. I bet Israel is racist because it is a democracy and a capitalist nation like Canada or the US. Again you are just a classic case of Politics and the English Language and yes I do know your rather blind by this but the rest of us sweetie don't are no longer living in the house of the blind I think we can see you for who you really are. Personally I think you are what George Orwell did warn us about.
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/09/10 10:41 PM EST
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Call it what you will...
@ Tam: You didn't address the part about Canadian Apartheid...if we can call a spade a spade? Whose land do you think you live on? We not only took their land, we decimated their populations with disease, famine and war and then we relegated them to reserves on 'our' terms...and even though, I'm the spawn of German immigrants and you the spawn of italian immigrants, we both share in this guilt by either continuing to pretend it didn't happen or keeping ignorant of our own history (written by whites). (BTW, you should also read the Book of Negroes...another eye-opener as to how well the British & Canadian treated a displaced race) Further irony to this... my uncle who moved back to Germany was told NOT to sell his house in beloved Toronto to ANY Italians, by the neighbours, as they didn't want their property values to sink. (Also read Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides - treatment of Greek immigrants in Detroit). Oops...I assume to much...even if you can read, do you read...do you keep FULLY informed...everybody is entitled to an "educated" opinion. Even further irony to this tale...Italian immigrants who have suffered a lot of racism and prejudice, now also sit on the other side of the table. I noticed that my former inlaws were particularly intolerant of 'pakis'! Which adds to one more EVEN BIGGER IRONY...the South Asian Gay Basher (Michael Kandola) in Vancouver (the other cover story) who no longer sees himself at the bottom of the heap (the racism totem pole - oops...I stole that term from the First Nations - mea culpa)...Mr. Kandola thinks that the 'hate crime' designation is unfair???? He bashed a man's face in and, while standing over his victim, he screamed " "fucking homo!" and "faggot!" (link: http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Convicted_Vancouver_gaybasher_says_hate_crime_designation_unfair-8893.aspx). I guess we have a full circle now. German
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/09/10 10:43 PM EST
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J. B. Thomas
very well said and I could agree more.
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/09/10 10:46 PM EST
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calling a spade a spade...
I wasn't finished with my rant despite the 2000 character limit... I guess we have a full circle now. German to Italian to South Asian to "faggot" back to me...German "faggot"..... We should all bone up on our World History (and not just the stuff written by a predominantly Caucasian intelligentsia or the biased media outlets who are more interested in ratings and readership). Sensationalism is not news nor is it factual...... We need to get ALL the facts before we can point the fingers at other and cry out: "SHAME!"..... BTW, I had to check up the definition for Zionist because I wasn't sure what you're derogatory allusion meant. I hate to tell you this but all I could read was that it meant a person (possibly Jewish) who supports the creation of a Jewish Homeland...in their place of origin. I don't know how that's exclusionary or even Apartheid (an Afrikaans word, btw). From my understanding it's the Palestinians who won't compromise b/c once an Islamic state ALWAYS and Islamic state. ....But I really don't know because I've never lived there or have walked a mile in either Israeli or Palestinian shoes! But have you? I doubt it.
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/09/10 11:04 PM EST
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you are starting to sound like Peter
There is no apartheid in Canada. There is discrimination (a lot less than in other places), but if anything, the government and most of the white population in Canada would like to integrate native people. For their own, valid reasons, a significant portion of them prefer their culture and their communities. They have, however, freedom of movement, they haven't been bombed, while there have been minor incidents with the police, they don't live with guns pointed at them all day long. We still have to deal with violated treaties and the Caledonian suburban population haven't quite gotten than when you move to stolen land, they have a right to complain. But in comparison to Israel, Canada is a beacon of morality. Canada is a multicultural society, their houses are not going to be demolished because they are native. In fact, indigenous people get a free education in Canada. This isn't to say that things are perfect here, they aren't, but this is no South Africa and it is no Israel. If you can't see that, then you are blind. Let's just assume that your historical argument is correct, I believe we deplore what our ancestors did, it was inhuman. The point is we don't want Israel to commit the same crimes that people committed centuries ago. Also, while some people were given contaminated blankets, the vast majority died becuase of disease that was just transmitted through natural ways. You should read your history. But even if you were right, is it ok for Israel to throw bombs at palestinian children? Hell, the aztecs claimed that they wiped out the entire oaxacan population less than 100 years before the spaniards came, does that mean that no decendent can complain about any genocide? What exactly is your point?
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/09/10 11:36 PM EST
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@Tam is living in the house of the blind
The founders of Apartheid in South Africa studied our Indian Act and copy the reservation system. Also Tam, the majority of Canadians are of European Origin and not Native( it might think about it you and I do live on some else land funny how Toronto was established by the British and yet there was people living here thousands of years before them ) What don't you seem to understand? Anyone who studies Canadian History , South African History or even Apartheid knows this that they did copy our Indian Act, it's all books on the subject (I know you reject books as most of the so called super genius seem to do ). Tam, J. B. Thomas is right Apartheid is Afrikaans word and not Kosher.Tam please ask our Native people what the United Church did to them and they also called it education and the affects of this is still a big problem among many of our Native people. Again as I say you are the people that George Orwell warns as about and you just attack anyone that disagrees with you and might be right or telling the truth. That's something you can't seem to handle. Also you just prove time and time again that you seem to have no clue about the past and even reality. Also I believe in the Muslim World in Arab countries they have Gender Apartheid and in Brazil(a western nation) there is a system called Social Apartheid . Tam you do live the house of the blind since you seem to be out of touch with almost anything.
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/10/10 12:11 AM EST
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Peter
I don't know why you insist in addressing me. I have already explained that I consider any argument with you a waste of time. Whether or not horrible things were done here, and they were, it does not justify what Israel is doing right now. It is plain and simple. Whether they studied our Indian Act or not, the situation here is very different than apartheid in South Africa or apartheid in Israel. In any case, we can do nothing to fix the wrongs of the past except to seek to live in peace with indigenous people. What our present is, is very different than what is happening in Israel. That is that. I know what happened and we all, anyone Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, who came from the other side, benefitted from it. True. So what? Would it be ok to go colonize Israel? We'll just get a bunch of Jehova Witnesses to go there and expel them all and kill a few of them and let no one complain because it has been doen before? Is that the kind of world you want to live with... wait, I forgot, you make you living from war. The point, colonialism was wrong... we are past that... this is why we claim to be civilized, because we stopped committing those crimes. Today, there are people in Israel behaving like the british did, like the spanish did... today.... I can't stop the colonization of the americas... even then Peter, there were people who complained, who adamantly blamed europeans for what was happenning, even though they too had been conquered by the romans.... the point is, again, right here, right now, Israel is behaving like Britain did, like Spain did. Don't you like comparisons? The pope gave the spaniards the land, the UN gave the land to Israel.... none of them had the moral authority to do that.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 12:53 AM EST
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Tam I guess you have no idea what you are saying
This quote gave it away ( Also, while some people were given contaminated blankets, the vast majority died because of disease that was just transmitted through natural ways.) The majority of European Colonization of the Americas was done by Military force. In your case you use the example of Spain. You forget the part that the Spanish took advantage the Aztecs thought they were God since they did fit what their holy books describe them to be.When they realized they weren't God and the Aztecs did fight back and it was that fighting that cause most of them to die. Also you leave out the part when the Spanish force the Aztecs to convert by gun point to Christianity and reject their culture. If they didn't they were killed. Also you example has never been proven. European diseases was a factor but it was not the cause. It was Military force by the British(here in North America) and Spain in Latin America. The only European Power to use peaceful means was France since they were more interested in the economic relationship and not colonization. This did later change when the British started to expand into North America But, most of displacement or even wiping out of Native peoples took place by force and not as you say it. If Israel is like this then did they force anyone to convert to Judaism? I find it most interesting Baha'i Faith found religious freedom in Israel when in other parts they are usually arrested because of their religion. Also Islam thrives in Israel too and Christianity or any religion. Also officially Israel does not even have a state religion. Tam you just prove you don't a have a clue what your even talking about such as your colonization of the America's stories involving the Spanish. But I guess when you insult my intelligence or anyone else here your just going to prove how you don't really have a argument, you just seem to make thing up as you go along do you? and attack anyone who disagrees with you? You were told this before.
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/10/10 12:56 AM EST
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Peter & JB
Thank you guys again, you bring facts to this debate, I have heard of in the past and could not remember. You both have insight and strong points to be made and heard. In all debates, The tams, sav and others that insist we are automatically racist for holding different political views. That attitude is contagious, if they call pro Israelis racists, they should not be surprised when we adopt their language and shout it back to Quaia....who behind the term "israeli apartheid" is racist undertones. Sav and tam asked me to explain how being against Israeli Policies can promote anti semetism. Despite some Jewish people that stand behind Quaia, it doesnt not give the organization More crediality as they suggest. I know some Japaneses friends and they think the "act" of homosexuality is gross to them. It simply is not their cup of tea, and I don;t label them homophobes. They look beyond who I love and sleep with, so they can appreciate the things we have in common. Now,Japan banned schindelists list when it came out, stating it was propaganda, in the 20th century. Do I think all japanese are anti semetic? No. But as a race, I will remeber their goverment made that decision. I have another gay friend who believes that 911 was an american and jewish conspiracy, I am her friend, however I believe that belief promotes anti semetism. My point being, Israel is referred to all around the world as "The Jewish State", when you educate the world on what you claim are purposefully , systemically trying to anlialte and commit genocide to the people of palestine, you then suggest the "Jewish State" is commiting purposeful, willful attacks on a people, for no reason other then criminal intent. That Lie, promotes anything Jewish, as Israel is reffered to as the Jewish state, will reap repercussions of hatred, and stigma for protecting them selves from terrorism by their neighbors. As long as israel is reffered as T
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 4:58 AM EST
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@TAM: Not a done deal...
First: What do you mean that Canada has no Apartheid!!!??? Have you been to the Rez??? Have you been to any of the "indian" reservations? What we (as a nation) are doing and we did (past) and the "current" aftermath is still on our plate. IT'S A CURRENT ISSUE! however not "fashionable" at the moment. It's not the sexy-sensationalistic politics of the Middle East.....Talk to any of the First Nations Peoples..I don't think they consider themselves a "done deal"....a thing of the past. (My eyes were opened quite a bit - a new colleague in my work place, who is my age, is half native and has been striped of her identity and culture...I don't think I want to tell her..."too bad...it's a thing with the past...suck it up, buttercup!"..... Second: If we go by what you say that we can't do anything about the past...then we have to live with it...the land was given for a Jewish State - a fait accompli - now we have to learn to live together... i.e. "both" populations must compromise....but "Do the math!".... 5.3 million Jews in Israel, surrounded by 300 million plus Islamic peoples in the Middle East (let alone 1.57 billion world wide)....I might be just a little defensive and proactive if 6 million of my people were murdered not much more than 60 years ago - with some survivors to tell the tale...oh...but that's the past...we have to write those numbers off! So let's just stick with today's numbers...13 million Jews and 1.57 Muslims worldwide...I think we have to find a way to live together.
J.B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 8:56 AM EST
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proper venue
Don't you think it would have been more appropriate for QuAIA to have protested during the G20 summit where they could have petitioned leading nations directly, instead of hijacking our Pride! But, of course, there message would have been lost in the ensuing chaos and melee....better the safety of pride....that's what I like...safety...don't we all?
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 9:08 AM EST
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your motivation
I still can't believe that you think what has happened/happening to the First Nations people is a thing of the past...spilt milk. You are currently paying taxes for the social programs to help these people. Don't you care how the government spends your hard earned money that they skim off of our paycheques and at the till (new HST). This is very much a part of my present world. I happen to live in this country. ....And what's your motivation....why are you so concerned about this? I know what my motivation is...I've said it before...but let me make it clear...of German descent (some relatives were definitely pro-Nazi, others were not), 6 million Jews and 3 million Roma, Gays and physically/mentally handicapped EXTERMINATED...oops...that darned past again. Let it go. Then feeling a unreasonable guilt for the death of those people although I had nothing to do with the Holocaust and in fact would not exist if Germany hadn't have lost the war....parents wouldn't have met...and I'd be sent to the chambers with a pink triangle stapled to my clothes. Having been heterosexually married to a self-righteous Italian who could never bare to lose an argument...and therefore was "always right" (This is what really makes this personal with me...w.r.t. you....I'm willing to compromise but you're not....I can admit that both sides share their guilt and both have a responsibility...but you can't)(Also happily partnered to a Jew for two years now...it was a little awkward introducing him to my Dad) ....So what is your motivation...What's the "big interest" for you in the Middle East. Why not interested in your home soil? Don't avoid the question!
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 9:38 AM EST
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motivation
What do you mean I'm beginning to sound like Peter. Is that a bad thing? And how does Peter make his living from war??? Is he an arms dealer. You mentioned this not I. Since we're in the job market...what do you do for a living, if you care to divulge. I'm a teacher...I'm the one who has to try an educate our future with many kids who have issues in the "past"...such as mental health, abuse, fetal alcohol syndrome, ADHD, learning disabilities, socio-emotional issues, broken homes, blended homes...I get a good glimpse of the real world and what's right here in our backyard. No problems here.
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 9:44 AM EST
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J. B. Thomas,
Again very well said and I was in the Military ( I do have experiences in war zones something she can't really seem to a handle and that is why she thinks I make my living from war) and have a Masters degree in History, she insults people intelligences because see think she is superior to everyone. So I'm getting what you are saying and Yes its all true (but she can''t handle the truth) I think she can't even make a argument and only says these things because of her political views. As I said, you do say it very well.
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/10/10 10:58 AM EST
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J.B.
I believe that what happened here was wrong. I believe that what happened in all of the Americas was wrong. I don't believe in colonialism but I don't believe that we are all going back to europe, neither us, nor Israelis should be asked to move. I do believe that resolutions have to be made to improve situations for indigenous people and to allow for, in the case of North America, viable economies. Apartheid, however, implies not mixing with people, and it certainly means that the dominant group, the colonial group, doesn't want to mix with another race. That is certainly not the case of Canada. A reservation in which people live because they want to live in a researvation is simply not apartheid. It is a current issue, absolutely, but it is not the same thing as how Israel treats palestinians. If you want to call it apartheid, go right ahead. The situations within reservations might be terrible (and they often are) but it isn't always the case. Societies develop mechanisms to work well and colonialism has certainly destroyed and undermined those institutions. That said, it isn't apartheid if we would all be ok with them living with us outside of the reservations. Perhaps you haven't thought about it. Well, I am glad you are traumatized, I actually think that Germany is an interesting country because it did something so horrible and yet, short of your grandpa and a few others, went through a process of accepting what it had done publically. I think many countries could do that. So Germany did something horrible and you will stand by while palestinian children die? My motivation, which I explain on an aside, is pretty much moral. Like everyone I was affected by stories and videos of the holocaust and I was told that one shouldn't pretend not to know. In fact, I was told, I shouldn't be one of those germans who just didn't know. Frankly, I would rather not know, but the pro-Israel side tried to brainwash me...
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 11:44 AM EST
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@ Tam
and yet you and I live in a country(Canada)that was started by European colonization? and brainwash? you are a classic case of that by a long shot.
Peter From, Toronto ON
07/10/10 11:57 AM EST
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My motivation.. back to it
Your history J.B. might have made very suceptible to what happens to jewish people, I took, spend hours watching videos of the holocaust in history class and was disgusted by what was done. I know an insane amount of Jewish people and have what I consider practically family living in Israel. They, btw, didn't go to Israel because of the Germans, they were very far from all of that and in any case she was born a few years after. She left because of the incentives the Israeli government offered. And when I was told as a child of those incentives, all I thought was that Israel was very progressive. I didn't even know there was a palestine until my mid teens. And then, I only considered it one of many conflicts I knew nothing about. You might have a lot of guilt over the holocaust, I come from a country in which there was no apartheid, but it didn't matter, indigenous people were cosnistently discriminated and perhaps one could say there was some kind of invisble apartheid because the institutioanlized racism was so high that there was no way they were going to get ahead and my people were extremely abusive. See, perhaps you have never lived through terrorism like the Israelis, but I have and so did the South Africans and so we have a very different perspective than you do. I grew being told that terrorists were insane, irrational, inhuman (and they might have been), that this just happened to us for no reason. We were guiltless, they were guilty. We were innocent civilians, they were all fair game. Indeed, there is nothing original about the narratives of the pro-Israel side, they seem to be the natural development in these cases. Later on in life I had to go, basically by myself, through a process of understanding what had happened. This, I should point out, though we had a very complex relationship with indigenous people precisely because even though there was discrimination they lived with us.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 11:59 AM EST
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as a continuation
The point is I actually managed to understand why this evolved, how it got worse, how both sides deteriorated and how much of the fault lied on our side. Our racist mentality, our fear (even without apartheid) of being culturally swalled by people who were so different than us (a lot less in common than Israelis and Palestinians). It was a different situation, but it had a lot in common also. I then disagreed with the vast majority of my people, so Israel isn't the only lucky one here. That said, I would probably have ignored the Israeli-Palestinian conflict because it takes time to find out about something and I am not someone who goes out to find causes to join. However, I once met a pro-Israel person and as if nothing she would drop in racist comments and try to justify Israel. I would disagree because it just sounded like the kind of thing people in my country would say and it seemed illogical, so she would play on the fact that she knew more of the history than I did. She would say something and then I would research it and so she initiated me into this. The more I found out about what Israel does the more I was disgusted. Then there were the constant, more broader, attempts by Israel to portray itself as just like us. You are from Germany J.B. why don't you type "Gaza" and "operation cast led" into google images and tell me how that makes you fee? It makes my stomach turn. Was that and Lebanon necessary? No. I don't think so. I then noticed that Israel says it wants peace and it has no partner but it won't even pick up the peace proposal by the arab league, nor will it talk to Hamas, nor will it stop construction of settlements. It say that the palestinians want to drive them to the sea, but the facts show that if it is up to the Israel there won't be land left for the palestinians. I find Israel lies all the time. At the end J.B. Germans did something horrible to Jewish people and Palestinians had to suffer for it.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 12:15 PM EST
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And so...
I realize I come from land that was of other people, I realized that as a child I move to another such land. I never said anything else. I don't believe the solution to the problem is to have all white people go back to europe, all chinese people go back to china, all black people go back to africa. I certainly don't expect all Israelis to leave their homes. Nor would all jewish people fit in Israel. I believe in multicultural societies but even if that isn't going to be a possibility in a Jewish state, I believe that Israel is the biggest obstacle to a two state solution. I have researched it thoroughly and have no reason whatsoever to be biased. I wish I didn't know, but now that I know, I can't quite make myself not care. I also get something akin to an allergic reaction when I see the racism that is constantly being thrown at arabs and muslims. Germans created a propaganda machine to dehumanize Jewish people. What do you think is happenning right now? There was a point in the pro-Israel side when it was ok to say that all palestinians would grow up to be terrorists. It didn't seat well with people. The intention is certainly there. Has it ever ocurred to you that every time you hear a muslim say Allah you associated with violence? Even if they are talking about building restoration? That we get really upset when they use the world martyr in war situations but most people haven't figured out that martyr to us has a very specific meaning. As someone raised a catholic, it means something very specific, so of course they are not talking about martyrs, and they are not. There is no equivalent for martyr in arabic. Yet we get all upset over it. What if the word they used was "witness" would we have such virulent reaction, I doubt it. Then again, Israel doesn't hide the fact that it hires propaganda consultants. There is so much of it one has to fight it. It isn't ok to dehumanize a people. How do you suggest we, who care, stop
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 12:36 PM EST
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@TAM - your empty rhetoric
You give a lot of rhetoric but very few personal examples of why you are motivated other than what you've done to surf the web (or as I call it the web of lies b/c anybody can post anything they want under any name). Have you lived there? Neither have I. You haven't really shown me your personal motivation other than you said you lived with terrorism...how was that or where was that...give me the concrete examples. Explain yourself more clearly. Educate me.....You also didn't address the First Nation issues of our country...yes 'our' country as I was born here...I'm merely of German descent. ....so my final message to you...is that we should take care of our own problems first before we point the finger. Yes we're multicultural but racism is rampant in Canada....and when it all boils down to it...I don't deny that QuAIA has a right to speak...but our Pride was not the place...the place should have been at the G20...or maybe I didn't notice them since the Black Block were busy causing that melee. You're like my wife...never wrong...and no room to compromise...very self-righteous...maybe I should say what I said to her to disarm her: "you're right and I'm wrong. Good night." Finally wised up and divorced her...lost the 80 extra lbs and the years of depression dropped away. I'd love to continue this banter but I'm off to the gym after a day on the Island. Remember: you're right, I'm wrong....Good night! P.S. Apartheid was done to a "majority" of blacks in South Africa by a minority of elitist white people.
J.B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 5:09 PM EST
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J.B.
You surprise me because you are obviously not quite getting that my motivation is not personal. I don't need to side with my people, or to have a muslim girlfriend to stand up for, I am simply a human being who, after finding out what Israel is doing, objects. There is no rhetoric to it. I also am not a researcher like you or Peter, who can't quite disern a good analogy from a bad one. I am a professional researcher and I have mined through information. I am excellent at looking through cracks at arguments and I read your first sentence I can only be shocked. I have morals. That is it. I don't want Jewish people to die and I don't want Muslim people to die. I am not going to remain quiet while an entire race is de-humanized and when bombs are used against children. If that is not enough for you, then I guess you and I are very different people. You do belong with the likes of Peter. Are you so ridiculous as to think that when the Germans were killing Jews people should have taken care of their own problems? The stupidity really gets to me. I consider myself the kind of people that, unlike your grandpa, would have disagreed with the nazis too. So you go ahead and think whatever you want, I will worry about other people's issues too, specially when my government has made it my issue. Now, go along little J.B. ...
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 5:31 PM EST
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your philosphy
What surprises me is that you claim to have learned something from the holocaust but you are saying that we should be the kind of people who looks the other way. I suppose you aren't that different than grandpa after all.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 5:37 PM EST
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I can't win.
On the Youtube site, I was called a truth-bending Zionist and now you're calling me a Nazi. Hey...I'm having an identity crisis. Notice how you have avoided all of my questions. No comments about any of my questions to you. BTW, you can also google "residential schools" + atrocities and find that there are very few pictures. we've just done a better job of hiding them. I am admitting that all sides need to take stock and learn to live together. My main point is that our Pride should not be the main venue...more appropriately it should have been the G20. And, I've noticed that you're not so concerned with the other genocides/atrocities in the world...have you heard of a place called Dafur? Queers against Sudanese Genocide...not on your priority list....not enough sensationalistism? Why is that? Again...no details to your motivation. No answers to the Canadian Apartheid. Nothing but just focusing on QuAIA...which shouldn't have been in the Pride parade...that's all.....but I've been through this before with your kind...argue until you're blue in the face...present all the facts...and you fixate on one little thing...and that's what makes you right above all. (Again...the wife who had OCD....compulsively right, in every argument)... You're right, I'm wrong, Good night...but last word...they shouldn't have been in our Pride Parade since it had nothing to do with Gay rights and gay activism
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 8:12 PM EST
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Thanks J.B & Peter
JB and Peter, you are making excellent points, and holding your own just fine. I think it was low for tam to suggest to JB, his stand has anything to do with the fact that his boyfriend is Jewish.You are scrammbling again tam, whenever anyone makes good points for how Israel is not an apartheid state. I will quote you regarding your insulting suggestion to JB. "You surprise me because you are obviously not quite getting that my motivation is not personal. I don't need to side with my people, or to have a muslim girlfriend to stand up for..." Nice tam, really solid.
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 8:59 PM EST
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Actually you can't
J.B. you can't win and neither can Jamie. This happens in other situations where I find myself randomly with a group of people who can't quite deal with high amounts of information. Residental schools were a terrible idea but that does not in any way justify what Israel is doing nor does it make it so that I can't have a say on it. It is simple but I don't expect you or Jamie or Peter to be able to process something that simple. The thing is that you are not necessary for things to change. Things will change regardless of you. And I do think that the problem is that there is a segment of the population that gets lost in things because they aren't all that smart. Because they aren't smart, they haven't quite figured out that there is whole bunch out there who can actually think and who don't just take on sides randomly because they are our people, because we feel guilty, etc. You can't quite make the correct analogies so that you can do something so stupid as tell us how against the holocaust you are and at the same time ask people to not to get involved when they see injustices perpetrated on other people. That is to me the highest of stupid arguments. You and Peter and Jamie might all think I am just into attacking people, but I am not. I just have a really low tolerance for stupidity. Well, actually, that is not true, there has to be a significant amount of stupidity for me to call it what it is. So J, you can't win, and eventually, hopefully, you and your company will be overwhelmed by people who disagree with Israel and it will just be forced to do something right and seriously start to look for peace. That way, you can be happy, there won't be any Israelis killed and I can be happy because I won't have to worry about this stupid conflict. Till then, we will have to put up with your stupid arguments, but don't expect me to answer them anymore.
Tam, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 9:21 PM EST
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We digressed.
1. Notice that not once did I deny that bad things could be happening in Gaza. I just said that we should tend to our own backyard before pointing the finger at other nations. 2. I only started off with saying that there's a fine line between free speech and hate speech. If I have the freedom to say whatever I want, I can spout racial slurs with impunity...that just doesn't make sense. They contradict. We have to think about what we're saying...hopefully use the right language in the proper context. By linking Israel to "Apartheid"...it's obvious that whoever coined the term wanted to be inflammatory. Apartheid was a government policy that was interpreted horribly wrong and led to the systematic discrimination of a majority population in South Africa. (It was meant to allow both cultures develop separately...however only the whites had the resources.) Connecting the term to Israel is painting the country as a racist nation. We're making all these assumptions, never once having been on Israeli/Palestinian soil...to see the whole picture with our own eyes. 3. I'm amazed on how you're fixated on this one cause and none other. Do you remember when the Tamil population in Toronto lined the down streets streets, man, woman and child, in the cold winter to bring awareness to the civil war in Sri Lanka... They didn't protest in our Pride Parade b/c it's not a gay issue. We can have free speech but let's keep the appropriate venue. 4. So what is your take on the Sudanese genocie, the Sri Lankan civil war, on Somalia and on Afghanistan. Why don't these countries/situations figure predominately in your portfolio of "morality." Why stuck on QuAIA's cause only? 5. You still didn't divulged the circumstances of the terrorism you experienced. I really want to know as it may give me a better understanding of where you're coming from.....So in conclusion, to this post, can I please have an answer/rebuttal to these 5 posts?
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 9:32 PM EST
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Inflammatory statements...
(Here's an example of some inflammatory comments that demonstrate my freedom of speech but may be offensive to you)......6. it's just a point of curiosity...you didn't divulge what you do...this may give me some insight...you opened this door when you said that Peter makes a living from war. Let's take a moment to exaggerate: Peter is a war monger, I'm a 'truth-bending Zionist" Nazi (what a contradiction!) who subverts my students' minds. What do you do for a living? Saint? Holier-than-thou Guru? Sanctimonious self-righteous Songstress of Psalms? Why do you perseverate so? I hope you have a job that requires you to focus...and to have the tenacity of a terrier. You'd be good at it......So far in this debate with you, I feel like I've been pissing in the wind. It's like talking to a wall. 7. The biggest shame is that these three religions share the same God...sister religions...more like sibling rivalry...does familiarity breed such contempt and resentment to this level. I'm a fallen Catholic and a born again atheist...but I'd certainly be willing to give it a try....to live in peace and share this World. 8. Remember, honey, I know my place... you're so right and I'm terribly wrong. I will assume the position of humility again. Night...sleep tight!
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 10:07 PM EST
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Sorry to hear you go...
I've just read your last post...I'm sorry to hear you go and give up the fight...it's almost like an admission of failure. You claim that we have been stupid and/or narrow (I think)...but you've not been able to answer any of our questions, compromise at all, capitulate at all...maybe it's insanity...banging you head against the wall thinking each time there will be a different result...is that you or me...not sure anymore. You don't have to try to answer any of our questions anymore...you never have...you've spewed us with your empty rhetoric, vague examples and ONE principle of morality...not the global perspective...the continuum of history...past, present and future. You cannot judge the world from the Web of Lies...even printed literature is suspect...go through all the experiences and gain the inner wisdom to know that there are no such things as absolute truth and omniscience. No black and white...no right or wrong...it's all shades of grey. The older I get, the more I don't know...I realize that. You must be young still...and very idealistic....let's just say it...naive. I remember that age well. And you can be that...it's a learning process. However, in the end...the message of QuAIA was in the wrong place at the wrong time...they can have that message, are entitled to it...can even inflame discussion...but NOT IN OUR PRIDE PARADE. The message there should be for gay activism, gay rights...or have we run out of things to say...I don't think so...in light of the increase of hate crimes against gays (just recently reported in the news)....that should have been the "political" issue at the parade...a fight against homophobia and gay bashing. What about the right for gay males to donate blood to the Canadian Red Cross...we're not the only HIV population...don't discriminate. And what happened to the Straights AIA...where are they?....I would still look forward to hearing about points 1-5, or even 6 and 7...let alone what I've said here...
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/10/10 10:25 PM EST
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tam
tam, Since "Israeli Apartheid" is a term you have fervently defended in this and other posts, I must ask your opinon again, on a question Peter asked you which you would not address. Gaza and Palestine were under the control of the Egyptians,and Jordanians they did not "Free Palestine, or encourage the autonomy of the Palestianians. Are these ruling nations Racists too? Two major nations in the Arab League, they criticize Israel of this "occupation", But they would not give the Palestinians and Gazans back "their" land. The 60's and the 40's were not so long ago. If Israel had not won the war, Gaza and Palestine would be "occupied by their fellow neighboring Arabs. What's that about? With all you proffessional researching, and standing shoulder to shoulder with Quaia, this part of history is centrally important, because Egypt and Jordan once captured that land, and want it back in a minute. is long as the world refers to Israel as the "Jewish State", criticize Israel, and you are teaching the world to hate anythin Jewish. Hence, the Jewish State. It racially profiles, and marginalizes Jews to do that. I still hear in the news from a portion of Canadian population, and all over the world "Holocaust Rememberance" is a ploy to make the world guilty. Why we must be in Peoples face helping them remember that time, is precisely for people who wish for the destruction of the "Jewish Stae", which suggests the Jewish problem. It is not a strecth, I have seen and heard hatred develop through all kinds of streotypes. Elle Flanders should be ashamed for not admitting it is a serious consequence to Jewish People everywhere to stand with and behind muslim nations that have publically declared their hatred of Jewish People, and Israel. The Muslim nations see those two things as one in the same. This issue, is far from a Goverment Policy issue. It is about p
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/11/10 9:24 AM EST
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A must see....
Important video guide to boycotting Isreal. Posted again, for all those that can use support and help to boycott that nation, and dispels propaganda lies against that Prejudiced Jewish nation". I sincerely hope this helps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c
Jamie, Toronto Ontario
07/11/10 9:36 AM EST
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lame hipsters that need a cause
You know what I think I'm going to do? I'm going to start a group, "Queers Against Quebec Separatism". And we should have a place in the pride parade!! Oh wait that sounds stupid because Quebec separatism HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GBTQ RIGHTS!!!!!!!!! Oh wait well, I'll try to spin it some way....ummm...queers in Quebec need to be...ummm...protected....by....some stuff....man....federal government....Steven Harper is a fascist....I don't know what a fascist is but Steven Harper is one...and yeah we should be in the pride parade...
lame hipster that needs a cause, Barrie ontario
07/11/10 2:57 PM EST
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tongue in cheek
Jamie, I watch the video and it was very tongue in cheek. To really enjoy it you have to have a high level of intelligence and be well read. However, I think extremists from both sides would try to use it to their advantage...pro-Zionists would say...See all that we've contributed. And Pro-Palestinian/Arab/Muslim would say...See! How they make fun of us. Very dangerous indeed. Hopefully this issue is at rest now.
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/11/10 8:44 PM EST
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Questions for Peter
Peter, could you contact me as I have some private questions to ask you about this situation. I'm on vacation for the next few days so forgive me if I don't respond too quickly. judebthomas@gmail.com
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/11/10 8:48 PM EST
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debate pointless
Debating Israeli policy on these forums is pointless, no one's mind is going to be changed by these sorts of debates though linking to other articles on the issue can be enlightening, I learned a lot about Israeli policy that I never knew before from the links that some posted. Much better to stick to discussing the issue at hand, attempted censorship of other's political views. Interesting that some still feel that, QuAIA, a member of the LGBT community in Toronto doesn't belong at Pride because their issue isn't sufficiently queer enough for some yet they feel anti-gay groups like JDL and groups that work with anti-gay bigots like B'nai Brith (actually not sure if BB were there this year but were in past, along with other pro-Israeli heteros do belong instead even though they have zero connection to the community, JDL refers to the Toronto LGBT community as "sodomite communists" and praise the work of Kahune an avowed racist who believes all of the occupied territory and Israel proper should be ethnically cleansed of Arabs and Muslims, see their site: http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/Article.aspx?id=180121 and considering JDL Canada has chosen to very closely align themselves with a terrorist group these are not the sorts of people that have anything at all to do with the LGBT community which Pride is celebrating unlike QuAIA. Besides the only problems, threats of violence and intimidation have come from the pro-Israeli side and not QuAIA, one person, not a member but who chose to march with them removed a pro-Israel sign from someone and was then immediately ejected from the group by others marching with QuAIA which goes to show they do not support silencing other's opinions unlike the pro-Israel side where the JDL was still welcome to march with them after they tried to get into a dust up with QuAIA members. Over all it went well but some have to learn to accept that differing political opinions aren't the end of the world nor are they hate spee
Rich, Toronto Ontario
07/11/10 9:49 PM EST
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@Rich
If this is a matter of freedom of speech. Then if the QuAIA was allowed to march at Pride then why not the JDF or the B'nai Birth? After all is this a democracy? right? I'm just saying since the QuAIA said this was a violation of freedom of Speech and expression. The last time I checked that is not a one way street. I think next year lets allow the Westbroo Baptist Church march, I hear they don't like Israel either.
WTF, Toronto ON
07/12/10 4:17 PM EST
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@ WTF
WTF I was pointing out the hypocrisy of those claiming QuAIA doesn't belong because their issue isn't sufficiently queer for Pride, yet many of those same people gladly marched with Jewish groups noted for their anti-gay stances and associations. If a group of queers protesting oppression in a different country isn't queer enough for Pride how are heterosexual Jewish groups that are antagonistic towards the LGBT community queer enough? Don't you find it ironic that those who were saying QuAIA isn't queer enough to march in Pride should then march with heterosexual pro-Israel anti-gay groups? If its wrong for QuAIA who are members of our community then why is it right for the JDL and B'nai Brith who have zero connection to our community and are antagonistic towards it? The only reason it was acceptable for those groups to participate in Pride was because they were marching with a legitimate LGBT group, on their own groups with no connection to our community or ones that are hostile towards it should not be allowed to march, remember it is a celebration of our LGBT community and not the whole city, QuAIA are members of our community, JDL, B'nai Brith and the Westboro Baptist Church are not.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
07/12/10 5:13 PM EST
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@Rich its still freedom of Speech
Yeah it's a democracy after all and why not? I just saying by you logic democracy only works if it agrees with you and not to other people. FYI: it's a two way street to some in the community such as Jewish members the B'nai Birth or Israel might be apart of them and their identity. But if the QuAIA can ally themselves with the most intolerant religion on the planet (IE: Fundamentalist Islam, Hamas, and the Palestinian National Authority, funny how they really don't care about Gay rights either) then why not JDL can't come to Pride? What? don't like their message? Well, I did not like the message of the QuAIA either. What is the problem?
WTF, Toronto ON
07/12/10 5:31 PM EST
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we get it.
we get it. You're saying that because the queer group QuAIA marches to support Palestinians it is okay for the straight homophobic Kulanu group to march and hate the gays.
wwtf, toronto ON
07/13/10 12:11 AM EST
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wwtf what's your point
So how is Kulanu homophobic? They are a Queer Jewish Group. I guess they are homophobic becasue they support Israel and you think Israel is homophobic Right? Guess what I hear they have a strong Gay Community and Israel gives Equal Rights to them and even to Palestinians ones too. Oh well I guess the QuAIA is homophobic to since most of Palestinian Society is homophobic and I've been reading up from something on books on this subject. Funny they say something different then what QuAIA is saying. Thanks for getting interest on Middle Eastern Queers. So far from what I'm finding, the QuAIA seems to be lying when it come to suffering of Queer Palestinians. Maybe they never thought about reading books on that subject . I can understand why they didn't, it would make them look bad since it the truth. Oh Well. Funny how we all were getting lie to and how Xtra is in bed with them in all this
WTF, Toronto ON
07/13/10 2:12 AM EST
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Agree with both...but...
I have to agree with both of you. If there are going to be homophobic groups (JDL or BB) and they are going to use intimidation....nope shouldn't happen. Also if you're going to do name-calling...nope shouldn't be happening. This is where I disagree with Rich. There are just some words in our language that can never be cast in a good light, for example...Nazi...a certain image comes into your mind. This is also true of words such as Apartheid, Bolshevik and Hun (for those of you old enough to remember the last two)...then when you associate this "negative" term with another person, place or thing, you're trying to make that "negative" term cast it's ugliness onto the other. That's hate speech even though it's freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is very encompassing...it can be good, bad or meaningless.
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/15/10 9:33 PM EST
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the real fights worth fighting...
So this middle east problem has been going on for quite some time and will never be solved. I think it's important to stay together and fight for common goods...things such as the right to give blood, public awareness beyond the city(...even in the GTA, where I teach, there is still so much ignorance and homophobia in the schools...we have a long way to go.), healthy anger against gaybashing....and finally, if we wish to beat our heads against the wall, we could always fight for the rights for gays in countries where homosexuality is still considered a mental illness and/or a crime. We're pretty lucky here. But make the fight gay-themed...the other people can get their own forum.
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/15/10 9:38 PM EST
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Well written J. B. Thomas
I just came across this article and the comments today. I congratulate J.B. Thomas on your well written responses. I also congratulate you on your own personal journey from a terrible relationship to a better life. In my subsequent posts I challenge the LGBT community to understand its difficult relationship with QuAIA. I hope that moderate members of the LGBT community will understand the ongoing impact of permitting QuAIA to participate in future Pride parades.
Martin P, Toronto Ontario
07/27/10 9:20 PM EST
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Challenge to the LGBT community
As a member of Toronto’s straight community I am disappointed and saddened that moderate members of Toronto’s LGBT community, including its leaders, have permitted a small group of radicals to hijack their parade, their message and their community. The characterization of attempts to prevent the hate group QuAIA from marching in the pride parade as a “free speech” issue is the same argument that might be used if bloodied, crucified Jesus were to follow old St. Nick at Toronto’s annual Santa Clause parade with the caption of the float, “The Jews killed Jesus”. There is lots of ‘free speech” that has no business in community celebrations. Without doubt QuAIA has the right to march, to protest and demonstrate; as hurtful and hateful as most members of Toronto’s Jewish and Israeli-Canadian community view the message. There are a plethora of groups, including QuAIA that view the world with a lens that only focuses on the State of Israel. The main question that the Jewish and Israeli-Canadian community asks Pride Toronto and its supporters is what is the relevance of this political protest in relation to LGBT rights, aspirations and celebrations. Would not a political protest group called “There are Gays in Iran” (TAGIN), be more appropriate to include in Pride Toronto to counter the utterly repugnant statement by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to a Columbia University audience on September 24, 2007 when he stated in response to a question about the treatment of homosexuals in Iran, "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country.” How’s that for free speech. I do not write this to attempt to convince members of the LGBT community of the issues that they should believe are important. I write this to demonstrate to thinking, moderate, liberal members of the LGBT community that QuAIA has only marginal relevance to gay pride and rights.
Martin P, Toronto Ontario
07/27/10 9:27 PM EST
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Challenge continued
So I challenge the mainstream LGBT community not to allow their parade of celebration that most members of our community used to support with “pride”. The lack of support at City Hall to the post parade Motion should be of serious concern to the LGBT community. Those of us who have supported you in ways and means that in many cases were unseen (again with solidarity and pride) are disillusioned and truly disappointed that the leaders of Pride and the LGBT community have failed to grasp the seriousness of this issue to a community that 2 generations ago were forced to walk side by side with your community into Hitler’s death chambers. We challenge you to make this right.
Martin P, Toronto Ontario
07/27/10 9:38 PM EST
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Origins of the Pink Triangle
Exactly my point. I'm all for Freedom of Speech so long as I don't shoot myself in the foot. This mania for untethered free speech has occluded basic common sense. I'm not saying one side is right and the other wrong. I can also admit that I may be wrong or that I just simply don't know the answer. However, I do know the origin of the Pink Triangle...and Hitler also had Freedom of Speech and a whole desperate nation fell blindly for it and his Final Solution. And many Jewish refugees were turned away from other countries, even the good guys, only to have to return to Germany and their demise. Right or wrong, I can see why they are protecting their little tiny homeland/refuge/sanctuary in a very hostile world. I also don't want to be the lamb being led to the slaughter. BTW, thanks for the vote of confidence. I have some regrets about having been to nasty with some of my opponents. I just wanted them to see the big picture and then we all ended up squabbling on tiny details... minutia. But I do hope that whenever they do see a pink triangle again, that the image sears itself into their conscience....I'll settle even for just a slight sting of acknowledgement. 11,000,000 died in the Holocaust...6,000,000 were Jews. The other 5,000,000 were homosexuals, Roma (gypsies), Jehovah Witness', the mentally and physically ill and other minorities...lots of sheep in those numbers.
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/28/10 2:38 PM EST
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Abstractions have their limits
I agree, J.B. that blathering endlessly about 'free speech' in the abstract, especially as a de-contextualized cause célèbre, reminds me of similar campaigns waged for Freedom or Democracy or The Nation. Lovely ideals. But what are we actually talking about, specifially? Do we mean from speech only for those with similar political ideals to ours, or do we also support it for Pamela Anderson's cheeky (sexy, or sexist?) anti-meat chart, "Islamophobic" Danish cartoonists and the Gaza Strip Club organizers? The QuAIA people were strategically smart in linking their cause to one of free speech, and they took an opening created just for them that one could drive a truck through. (I support their right to their political expression, even as I am ambivalent). Kyle Rae first set the dogs of war on them via the City Hall bureaucracy, but when he c/w/ouldn't articulate how this violated the City's anti-discrimination charter and hid behind staff and then Pride, he then switched gears and did the focus argument, then - presto - created a new history for us, right before our eyes. So I understand why in the face of this, QuAIA expediently embraced the free speech argument. The onus is on those making the charge of discrimination to back it up, but it has never been met. Freedom of speech is a salient historical issue with our communities, and it evokes charmingly. But we need to think through the implications. As a student at York and UT I saw various unpopular causes run off campus over the years, usually the Right to Life , um, losers. But if we are going to rally around free speech, let's really mean it. I think the PTPers, Mills, Popert etc. get this. I am unfortunately less than willing to entirely trust the left/feminist intelligentsia because freedom of expression hasn't always been their highest collective value, though individuals vary in their focus as in any coalition. I sincerely hope to be proved wrong, but I am thus far un-budged from my scept
Alex MacLean, Toronto ON
07/28/10 3:14 PM EST
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Proof of incitement to hatred
scepticism. Unbudged from my scepticism. Please, extra, fix this! And Martin, the charge that QuAIA is a 'hate group' has never been proved to a degree of certitude. I'm not a free speech absolutist (ie yelling fire in a crowded theatre argument) but if political expression is going to be banned, it must be on a basis of proof and integrity - some frame of reference. "This speech is hate because______." Something isn't hate speech just because it is offensive or you don't like it. Many religious adherents are offended when their religions are criticized, to which I say, so what? In the absence of a convincing case, we need to allow them latitude to make their case. The case against them has wandered all over the place: Pride isn't about politics any more, Pride shouldn't be about victim-hood, don't bring your old world problems here, Pride should focus on homophobia, Pride is a celebration/party, the reasons for excluding them are almost as numerous as those who would exclude them. Offensive, yes. I think "Israeli Apartheid" is offensive. But there's also a case to be made for 'enlightenment through controversy.' Offensive is not a reason to ban something. Does it promote hatred against an identifiable group? Okay - how? And as for the Iran argument, I have some sympathy for you. I think there are countries more deserving of our condemnation. But surely the onus is on me or you to organize that, rather than to ban someone from promoting a cause we think less deserving. There's something to be said for the 'marketplace of ideas' approach. The City first raised the charge of discrimination with Pride, and then hid behind them. This needs to be rooted out: prove it, or withdraw it.
Alex MacLean, Toronto ON
07/28/10 3:35 PM EST
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@ Alex M.: critical yet unbiased
Alex, very well said. I couldn't agree with you more. Your comments were critical and yet unbiased. This is the way it should be. We should certainly all try to be this way. You certainly should be sitting on that special PT panel for future decisions. I hope that more people read and understand your post
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/29/10 10:58 AM EST
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Why QuAIA is a hate group
Just as I would not be so presumptuous to suggest what might be offensive to the LGBT community, I would ask that other communities not suggest what might be hurtful and hateful to the Jewish and Israeli-Canadian community. That is not to say that I have thin skin. Indeed, I do not and as I stated in the previous posts, I do not suggest QuAIA should not protest, I just suggest that the Pride parade is not the appropriate forum. As I do not make those decisions, all I can do is make the request respectfully. As for the offensiveness, as with most “Israeli Apartheid” protest groups, the underlying message of QuAIA is illegitimacy of Israel. Ultimately, these protest groups suggest that Israel is an illegitimate state and should no longer exist. Jewish national aspirations rose from the ashes of death, just as LGBT political aspirations grew from oppression and repression. The suggestion of a fence to protect Israel’s border is somehow akin to apartheid is offensive, as every nation is an apartheid country by that measure. The suggestion is that Israel has no right to control its borders or protect its people. The border was fortified only after numerous suicide bombers killed and maimed thousands of Jews in Israel, with an emphasis on soft targets (women and children). QuAIA’s message is and is meant to be inflammatory and meant to demonize those who support Israel (i.e. Jews and Israeli-Canadians and their supporters). In a Toronto, a City of Tolerance, a message of exclusion and what I consider to be hate for the reasons above, is not appropriate at your Pride parade. The LGBT community must also examine how the embrace of this group by the “LGBT community” might affect Jewish or Israeli members of the LGBT community.
Martin P, Toronto Ontario
07/29/10 3:48 PM EST
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Why QuAIA is a hate group continued
QuAIA’s message is meant to hurt and marginalize those who support Israel. The name is not “Queers for Palestine” it’s “Queers against Israeli Apartheid”. Think about the name. QuAIA’s message to our community is the same as the message of certain fundamentalist religions to your community that believe that “gays are immoral” and the LGBT community should “repent” from its sins and “convert” to a different way. Such speech is constitutionally protected (maybe) and is meant to delegitimize you and your community. I bet that most members of the LGBT community would consider such messages hurtful and hateful. To me and my community the messages are similar. I hope my short explanation sheds some light on the reasons why I and most members of my community consider QUAIA to be a hate group.
Martin P, Toronto Ontario
07/29/10 4:01 PM EST
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Can we ditch the 'focus' argument for now?
Martin, I don't think there's any doubt that the term 'Israeli Apartheid' is hurtful and hateful to many people in the Jewish community, still reeling from the hell that was 20th century (not to mention the previous eight or so). I'm not Jewish, but I find it bellicose. It certainly does nothing to warm me to their cause. Quite the opposite. However, please consider this: many Muslims found the Danish cartoons of Mohammad hateful and hurtful. Should they be banned? I'm sure many fundamentalist Christians are offended by the essentialist and one-dimensional caricature of them as hateful homophobes all, and the Pope has been a very popular target at Pride which offends many Catholics (and others). Should that stop on the basis it is offensive and hurtful? During the G20, even the legitimacy of Canada was questioned on the basis it was on 'stolen native land' - legitimate if bombastic political speech. I'm not downplaying your intense reaction to these words - quite reasonable given history but I am asking you to tell us if you really have thought through the implications of banning speech or representation simply because it offends. We have hate speech in the criminal code. I guess I'd rather err on the side of permitting speech that is offensive to the Israeli state or political Islam or Christianity - than to ban it. If it promotes hatred against an identifiable group of people, then it can be prosecuted as such. And if Pride is not the appropriate forum, then there are some pretty thorny issues about who else is inappropriate. I remember the protests against the real apartheid in South Africa in the 1980s/early 90s, and much protest against the Harris government, about AIDS, about women's choice. So it isn't really about 'wrong forum', is it? The hate/offensive speech issue is the one that needs to be settled one way or another. Is it hate speech, or offensive political comment protected by freedom of expression, and bromides about 'free speech' aren't enough.
Alex MacLean, Toronto ON
07/29/10 5:00 PM EST
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thorny issue
I empathize greatly with Martin`s points; the centuries of persecution and the Holocaust of the last century has caused irreparable damage to the Jewish psyche and the undeniable need for a Jewish homeland which should be protected at all costs. No other country would do differently. We all want to protect our borders and our citizens from malice. However, Alex's global perspective also has validity. The judgement of what is offensive and what is hateful is very subjective depending on how close to home it hits. There is no black and white; only shades of gray (which I have said before in a post.) Alex has a point that many groups are targeted during the pride parade and perhaps we should look at this more closely. There should be some official guidelines (which can be made malleable) as a "point de depart." Do we sanitize Pride? Perhaps we need to. We all have choices though. If we find it too offensive, we need state our point and then be able to walk away or shut it off. (e.g. My two younger daughters love Russel Peter's comedy routine. I find it to be utterly offensive. At these moments, I wonder where this spawn comes from; these can't be my children. So I take the opportunity to educate them. I'll sit there and listen but there is no laughter from my voice. I do not and can not find him funny. Eventually, I walk away. Racism can never be made funny, even if it comes from a visible minority. I make this message clear to them.) I'm definitely against censorship. My mother told me of all the book burnings in Nazi times. It wasn't only the suppression of free thought and questioning but a witch-hunt. All the German families that my mother knew (including her own) burned or disposed of their Stammbuch -- a book akin to a family tree...telling you of your origins and ancestors. Everybody was afraid that a Jewish relative would be discovered -- hence an unclean blood line. History destroyed out of fear.
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/30/10 8:30 AM EST
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education not censorship
So instead of censoring, we should be educating. We also need to take into consideration other people's emotions and realize that progress can only be made when all parties are cooperating. There is no gain in inflaming or offending your opponent. Compromise is necessary. So, for instance, the Danish caricatures of Islam should not be banned but the citizens of Denmark should have objected. I agree that QuAIA should be more appropriately named Queers for a free Palestine...their other offensive name gets them more media attention but, in the end, no net political results, and they risk the legitimacy of their group and their purpose. Most Canadians, on the whole, are very passive and very ignorant of world issues. They prefer the comfort of their microcosm which doesn't extend very far out of their homes or even their local communities. Perhaps we're victims of geography: a large land mass with a small population dispersed throughout and a strong American influence. Education and the amelioration of the individual's critical thinking skills is a very slow process and progress is barely perceptible but we're making progress, I think. I teach in a rural bible belt east of the GTA. Just recently, our school had its first openly gay student prime minister. Ten years prior to this, I was admonished by administration for bringing up homophobia, gay bashing and teens who are questioning as a writing topic in English. (A group of parents, coincidentally all from the same local Pentecostal church took issue with the curriculum I presented - they thought it immoral. I was told to humour the few students, their offspring, as they wrote their "gay-bashing" treatises. Probably illegal, even back then in Ontario. As vulgar as it was, I was told to accept the following: "Brandon C. is a sick-in-the-head queer who deserves to be shot." and mark this introductory sentence and the ensuing polemic only for grammar and style. This still burns me a bi
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/30/10 9:03 AM EST
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a bitter pill
(That day, I had to swallow a very bitter pill. However, years later, not only am I vindicated and justified, but I stayed true to myself. Sometimes progress is also painful. In striving for our rights and integrity, we can end up scarring ourselves. Sometimes the scar tissue is too deep and we are no longer able to remain unbiased. So admittedly I do have a disdain for Pentecostal churches and their congregations as I do find them to be narrow-minded and opinionated but I can live with that, so long as they don't come knocking on my door.) ----->In our New World, we'll have to demonstrate by example that Old World politics can be mollified and a suitable solution can be found which suits all interested parties. I guess I have high hopes.<----- *** N.B. This is a far more productive discussion lately with Martin and Alex than previously on this site. Previous posts were unproductive since they were dogmatic. The whole forum descended into pettiness. Hopefully, more open minds are reading the recent posts and understanding them. However, I fear that may not be the case. {Thanks Alex...the word for the day: bromide. And I thought that was just an ion. (also a science teacher)}
J. B. Thomas, Toronto Ontario
07/30/10 9:16 AM EST
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Thanks J.B.
Thanks, J.B. and I agree this has been a productive discussion and I appreciate your vote of confidence (I don't get an awful lot of those on here - most people are only moved to post pro- or anti- something and see moderates as fence-sitters, for me it's more about finding some humility - a work in progress!; I do like finding a thread where there's give and take and some honest listening). I do have very strong opinions about a good many issues, but there are times (maybe this is about getting older) when the right question for me to ask myself is not "which side should I take so I can go and shout on their behalf" - but something else. I have come to know that all the finely honed arguments in the world don't convince someone of the righteousness of my cause if their innate sympathies lie elsewhere. I do find this a very difficult issue to take sides on, if only because when a conflict has gone on long enough both sides have legitimate claims on our sympathy, both have dead innocents, both have agents who have acted violently and dishonourably. So, planting yourself firmly on one side means necessarily ignoring the very valid points made by the other when those are inconvenient, and explaining away your own malicious behaviours determined by your opponents actions. I'd rather save my certitude and opinions for something about which I can clearly see that one side is that of goodness and light and the other is the something akin to Darth Vader. I just don't get that here. I don't think there's a solution to this that will please everyone, but I do think that a compromise can be reached LOCALLY that allows freedom of political expression while honouring the fear (historically justified) that speech bordering on hate can cross that border. My science is rusty - I'll have to look up bromide in scientific terms; I only know it as a figurative term. Now biology, that I get! Chemistry, physics, not so much....cheers.
Alex, Toronto ON
07/30/10 3:52 PM EST
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