Jewish group pushes Pride Toronto to condemn "anti-Israel hate groups"
TORONTO NEWS / Listen to Scott Dagostino's chat with CEO of the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center
Scott Dagostino / National / Friday, March 19, 2010
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Avi Benlolo, President and CEO of the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center
(twitter.com)
In an interview with Xtra earlier this week, writer and activist David Demchuk argued “Pride as an event — particularly the parade — has a tradition of politics and progressivism,” and defended the group Queers Against Israel Apartheid (QuAIA) for using a label deliberately chosen to provoke and create debate.

The Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies (FSWC) didn’t see it that way, insisting that QuAIA’s participation in the Pride parade amounts to “the incitement to hatred against Jews” and they, along with other Jewish groups, implored Pride Toronto to ban all such messaging.

But like a leaf in the wind, Pride Toronto quickly found itself buffeted between these demands for censorship and the outcry from artists and activists dedicated to free expression. As playwright Brad Fraser argued, “The very idea of the march itself is a political one, and if we start censoring messages, where do we stop?”

With that in mind, Xtra approached FSWC president and CEO, Avi Benlolo. Initially, FSWC commended Pride Toronto for moving to vet all signage, but a March 12 press release demands “a strong and clear statement... by Pride Toronto condemning the participation of anti-Israel hate groups and messages in the parade.”

Benlolo insists that criticism of Israel is the first step towards violence against Jewish people, so, in a respectful, lively debate, I quizzed him about FSWC's assertion that “it remains to be seen whether or not Jewish gay rights activists will be welcomed at a joyous celebration of gay pride, or intimidated by anti-Semitic thugs hiding behind the banner of human rights.”

Listen to Scott Dagostino's chat with Avi Benlolo here:



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Reader Comments


 
criticism of Israel not hate
First I have to admit that I didn't listen to all of the interview and that I don't know much about QuAIA except for their signs I've read. However I do take issue with the statement that "criticism of Israel is the first step towards violence against Jewish people" that simply isn't true and is little more than an attempt to silence criticism. Criticism of the US isn't a step towards anti-American violence, nor is criticism of any other country a step towards violence against any members of those states or ethnic groups. Israel and its supporters can't seriously think they shouldn't have to face any criticism at all for anything they do, why of all the countries in the world should Israel get special treatment and be free from criticism? Yes anti-semitism is a problem in the world and there are some folks who would like to see Israel wiped off the face of the map, there's also folks who would like to see the US wiped off the face of the map too, same with many other countries but no one suggests banning criticism of them. Anti-semitism is a problem, so is homophobia/heterosexism, there are people who would want to do violence towards queers and Jews yet no one suggests LGBT folk should be free from criticism. There are many Jewish folks involved in various anti-Israeli apartheid movements who aren't self hating Jews, even in Israel itself there is opposition to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. My point is that being critical of the policies of Israel in no way means they're anti-Israeli let alone anti-semitic just because those who are anti-semitic are also critical, its like saying that because red and green are both colours that red is green and green is red. Its a fiction developed by those who don't care to respond to the criticism, or perhaps feel they can't defend Israel's policies, whatever the case may be its a fiction designed to silence the criticism and nothing more.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
03/19/10 8:00 PM EST
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Why should gays support Muslim causes?
I found this quote of playwright Brad Fraser to be very ironic: “The very idea of the march itself is a political one and if we start censoring messages where do we stop?” I don't know why gay artists like Brad Fraser are rushing to support Muslim groups who condemn Israel. None of the gay-themed plays that Fraser wrote and none of the episodes of Queer As Folk that he wrote or directed, would be able to be shown in any Muslim country. In most Muslim countries, a playwright like Fraser would be imprisoned and beaten. Why should gays support Muslim countries in their hate war against Israel when they want us dead?
Pete, Toronto Ontario
03/19/10 9:00 PM EST
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QuAIA isn't a Muslim group
re: Pete's comment -- QuAIA isn't a Muslim group. In fact, they have a significant number of Jewish members, as well as members from other religions, backgrounds, and some who aren't religious at all. QuAIA is also not "supporting Muslim countries"--one can criticize Israel and its conduct toward Palestinians and at the same time demand implementation of human rights from other countries in the region.
David Demchuk, Toronto Ontario
03/19/10 9:25 PM EST
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Israel is not Jews.
I disapprove of some things Israel has done, but that has nothing to do with my feelings towards Jews (ethnic or religious). My understanding is that while many Jews live there, other kinds of people live there too; many Jews choose not to live there; Isreal is representative democracy. When foreign governments do something wrong, we have the right, and perhaps an obligation, to call them out.
Randy, Windsor ON
03/20/10 1:19 AM EST
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stop sanitizing and corporatizing pride
Just because gays and lesbians in the Middle East under totalitarian and fascist governments suffer, doesn't mean there are gay Arabs and gay Muslims who aren't struggling for their rights. There were Pride marches in Beirut in recent years. We should encourage them, and not say that just because ISrael doesn't execute gays that they have a good human rights record. Supporting Palestinian human rights is not a "Muslim" issue. First, not all Palestinians are Muslim. Some are secular. Some are Christian. Palestine solidarity activists come from every race and religion (including Jews, Christians, Muslims) and are united by their opposition to the racist state policies of Israel that discriminate in who can be a citizen, who can own land, who can cross the apartheid wall, etc etc. Avi Benlolo is really full of it. How dare he say "Palestine doesn't exist." ?? He suggests Palestine solidarity activists want to erase Israel, but he has no problem erasing Palestine?! I just want to clarify no one who wants a one state solution wants the "destruction of Israel." Allowing Palestinians and Israelis to have equal rights in one shared state would change the character of the nation, but in the same way that millions of immigrants to Canada changed our social, cultural and ethnic makeup. It didn't DESTROY Canada, nor did it destroy Canadians. What needs to be destroyed is racist policies in Israel, by allowing equal citizenship for all in their territory.
EKS, Toronto Ontario
03/20/10 5:47 PM EST
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Israel is a State, not a religion or ethnic group.
Israel is a state, not a religion or ethnic group. It actually contains many ethnic groups. A criticism of the social and military policies of a state do not nor have they ever been equated with hate crime. I hate the state of Israel for what it has done, I hate airline terrorists too--but I don´t hate Jews or Palestinians and don´t see all on either side as complicit in the attrocities of their WAR. A WAR is what we are dealing with here, a civil war. There are sides, casualties and war crimes. The world has a right to know about attrocity, war crime and have an input because it all eventually affects us and sets a moral standard in the World Village. If Israel is immune to criticism, where will that stop? It is public fact the state has state sanctioned torture (look it up, legislated through the judicial branch, the courts,to extort suspected terrorists on bomb locations and such--this is Nazi style policy, the end justifies the means!). As queers we have a special responsibility in overcoming this sort of accusation of anti-semitism. For one, it is ridiculous in the light of the fact that queers had it just as bad, if not worse, inthe Nazi camps. When the camps were liberated, queers had to go to criminal prison in Germany, not liberation camps--they had broken criminal law. We understand holocaust, very explicitly, this accusation is ridiculous. Why do we never hear of Romany (gypsies) complaining or demanding their own nation too? Millions of them perished at the hands of the Nazis but they have managed to rejoin the world community without any systemic, revenge oriented genocide. Why are not Israelis and Zionists leading the world in human rights rather than supporting the extermination of Arabs in the light of what they had perpetrated on them. This all does more to malign the jewish people world wide than any hate campaign ever could.
Jordan Trudel, Toronto Ontario
03/20/10 10:03 PM EST
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Tell That
To all the Gay Palestinians that are forced to live in Israel because they are hated by their own society. I dare the QuAIA to tell that to them and if they want to march let them do it in Gaza or in the West Bank then and what is stopping them from doing so?????????
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/20/10 11:55 PM EST
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re: tell that to gay palestinians..
palestinians, along with queer palestinians have been/are being systematically FORCED OUT of israel, THAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE. imagine a bunch of straight ppl driving bulldozers into the village and tearing down all the queer nightclubs and businesses on church st and replacing them with straight nightclubs and businesses to lay claim on it as straight territory and force out the queers. that's what's happening in israel right now, get it? that is why palestinians are angry (you know, whenever they're not being bombed to shit in gaza)
umm, Toronto ON
03/21/10 5:11 PM EST
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@umm, tell that to these gay Palestinians
In Gaza and the west bank being gay is illegal and Israel has given gays equal rights, recognizes same sex unions and have giving Gay Palestinians a safe havens from their oppressors which is Palestinian society in which they are hated. you said "Palestinians, along with queer Palestinians have been/are being systematically FORCED OUT of Israel, THAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE." so where is your evidence?????????? I have proof that Israel does not do any of what you have said and if you want to see Palestinian Society then why doesn't the QuAIA just go have a rally in Gaza or in the West Bank what are stopping you from doing so???? you might find yourself running to the Israeli Border if you did. http://ilga.org/ilga/en/article/mf4Y1A81Dy http://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/world/israel/isnews004.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3211772.stm http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/968337.html http://queertoday.ning.com/profiles/blogs/gay-palestinians-gaza-israel http://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/world/palestine/psnews003.htm http://www.gbmnews.com/articles/3857/1/Gay-Palestinian-fears-for-life-seeks-residency-in-Israel/Page1.html Do you need anymore evidence??????????????????????
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/21/10 6:06 PM EST
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An analogy
I think that it could be useful to clearly establish something. It is not because we admit that a country A is better than a country B in regards to some aspects, that we should necessarily admit that the country A can never be criticized on other aspects... An analogy: If Canada is a better place to live than some other country, in regards to social policies for example, does it mean that Canada becomes unattackable on all plans? For example, does it mean that we can't criticize Canada for some of its environmental policies? Of course not. Moreover, does it mean, that although Canada has better social policies than some other country, those social policies don't need to be improved, or that they are completely above any criticism? Of course not. We might still ask for improvement. Similarly, recognizing that Israel is a better place (than Palestine) to live for gay people (as Charles's evidence suggests) doesn't make Israel immune to criticism on some other levels (for example: the occupation and apartheid), nor should it prevent us from hoping Israel could to do even better than it presently does for gay people. In other words, Charles, although your evidence is true, you cannot conclude from it that Israel's record is unattackable on any other level, nor that Israel should be above any incentive to improve its own record in regards specifically to gay & lesbian issues. It's too easy to invoke the existence of something worst in order to justify the legitimacy of something bad.
Gabriel Aumuld, Montreal Quebec
03/22/10 12:46 AM EST
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QuAIA is a peace group
Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) is a peace group, not a hate group. Further, QuAIA is not "anti-Israel"; it is anti-apartheid -- as it exists in Israel. If QuAIA really is a hate group, then why hasn't it been busted by the RCMP/police? Answer: Because it does not violate Canada's hate laws. As a gay man, I object to: (1.) Israel pretending to be a liberal democratic state by advertising its so-called "gay rights." Israel is hardly a bastion of equality -- regardless of its laws -- and we mustn't forget that its laws do not apply to everyone equally. I oppose a state that uses "gay rights" as propaganda to mask that state's war crimes and other crimes against humanity. It is deeply offensive to use queer struggle as a propaganda tool. (2.) Israel's creation of terrible social conditions that seriously harm LGBT people in Palestine. What promotes gay rights? Economic development, education, basic freedoms, civil liberties, and so forth. Israel denies such human advancements to Palestine. Quite deliberately, Israel starves and destroys Palestinian civilization. Consequently, social conditions are terrible and, given such conditions, LGBT people in Palestine suffer.
Rick, London Ontario
03/22/10 1:00 AM EST
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Queer Palestinians: Israel's record not so great
Charles, just taking a closer look at one of the links you provided, we find this (from the BBC): -- However, the Israeli secret service also often exploit gay Palestinians, said Mr Gonen. He says this usually involves coercing them into working undercover, to gather information about other Palestinians. The precarious status of the gay community means gay men often end up working for the secret service or as targets for exploitation by Israeli men. "They work as prostitutes, selling their bodies unwillingly because they have to survive," said Mr Gonen. "Sometimes the Israeli secret police try to recruit them, sometimes the Palestinian police try to recruit them. "In the end they find themselves falling between all chairs. Nobody wants to help them, everybody wants to use them." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3211772.stm -- In the end... _nobody_ wants them. You see, it's true Israel has a better record over all on LGBT issues... at least as far as Jewish Israelis are concerned. As you start getting into the Arab population (and especially those living in the West Bank), the lines get very fuzzy. I'm sure a handful of Palestinians have made their way to Tel Aviv, found the right partner and improved their lives... but there are also cases, as an Israeli human rights activist asserts above, where Israel tries to turn queer Palestinians against their own community, as collaborators... this doesn't improve rights for queer Palestinians, this causes resentment and misunderstandings in Palestine that make the situation worse for queer Palestinians. So the situation is not so black and white as Israel's supporters would like for us to believe. In any case, whatever Israel's stance is on queer rights, it does nothing to absolve it from occupation, colonization of the West Bank and apartheid, such as the fact that most Arab citizens are prevented from purchasing land in Israel.
Sav, Toronto ON
03/22/10 2:55 AM EST
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QuAIA's negative effect on Pride
I know that many of the Left-wing supporters of QuAIA oppose the "corporate presence" at Pride. If QuAIA succeeds in their goal of hijacking the gay rights agenda of Pride in favour of widely-publicizing their anti-Israel hate message (e.g., holding up signs comparing Jewish supporters of Israel to Nazis), then some governments and corporations may stop making financial contributions to Pride. With less money, Pride may be scaled-down in future years. I don't see how this helps gays rights.
Pete, Toronto Ontario
03/22/10 5:36 AM EST
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Sav, Toronto ON
The BBC wow you did now it said from the Palestinian VIEW and not the Israeli point or is the media spin doctors trying to pull and another one off and since you seem to be a member of the QuAIA go have your rally in Gaza or the West Bank?????? then whats stopping you????
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/22/10 9:46 AM EST
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Reply to Pete (about financial reasons)
Reply to Pete: Are you aware of what you just said? Basically, from what I understand, you seem to imply that Pride should exclude Quaia in order to avoid the possibility that corporations and government would withdraw their financial support to the event, which in turn would weaken LGBT interests. How is this a valuable argument? So, it seems you think that the organizers of Pride should respond to some kind of blackmail? Again, here's an analogy: What if the corporations and governement would ask Pride to exclude all black people in order to keep the corporate and governmental money? Do you think, then, that Pride should comply? Do you think that if Pride doesn't comply with such a request it means gay rights would be less supported than if they did? Clearly, you seem to imply, in your comment, that keeping the financial support coming from corporations and government is a sufficient reason to ban the expression of whatever discourse the corporation and government wants to ban.
Gabriel Aumuld, Montreal Quebec
03/22/10 10:43 AM EST
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Stop supporting HATE in the parade!
There is no room for the swastika clad QuAIA in the parade (one member of the group was wearing a swastika last year, with bullets around his wrist - I have the photo). It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with their message, the point is that there is no place for this divisive group in the parade. I hate the fact that homosexuals are murdered for their sexual orientation in Iran, but I'm not entering a float called "Stop Iranians From Murdering Homosexuals In Iran" to alienate the Iranian community in my city. Instead, I donate my time and money to organizations like Human Rights Watch, IFEX and other positive groups that HELP and SUPPORT our brothers and sisters around the globe.
Glen Hanson, Toronto Ont
03/22/10 10:50 AM EST
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QuAIA is a hypocritical hate group
The very essence of "Queers Against Israeli Apartheid" is so hypocritical. Israel is the only place in the Middle East with a gay pride parade. It is the only place in the Middle East where gays are persecuted for being gay. Where's the "Stop Yemen From Murdering Gays", "Stop Ugandan Homosexuals From Facing the Death Penalty".... the only reason QuAIA is protesting is because they hate Israel. Period.
Juan Costa, North York Ontario
03/22/10 11:46 AM EST
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there was no swastika
There was NO swastika in last year's parade. Not by QuAIA and not by anyone. There was a person in an anti-racism group that had a shirt with an ANTI-FASCIST symbol, that is a crossed-out swastika like a no smoking sign. Someone doctored the photo to take out the "cross-out" markings to make it look like a swastika... actual video of the event makes it clear it was an anti-swastika. Also Israel's supporters claim this individual was marching with QuAIA but it's not true. It must suck when you can only win the argument by making stuff up. btw- members of QuAIA include people who actually have queer friends and family in the West Bank and other parts of the middle east. They understand the complexities of the situation for queers living in the Muslim world better than anyone on this list calling for condemnations... making condemnations might make someone here in Canada feel better, but it won't help people there... oftentimes those condemnations are used as an excuse to treat queers worse. Let's help them, not ourselves.
Sav, Toronto ON
03/22/10 12:14 PM EST
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Sav, Toronto ON
On top of the swastika which I saw too when I was at pride I also saw your members waving CUPE Ontario Flags which does also have a rather Anti-Israel agenda under the current leadership. Not to note that the QuAIA has a anti-Israel Agenda which has nothing to do with pride or it meaning its seems to have another non-pride agenda like being a mouth piece of another Anti-Israel group that has nothing to do with pride either which is CUPE Ontario and you still have not answer my question about marching in Gaza or the West Bank? When will the QuAIA do that and what is stopping the QuAIA?? Is it Palestinians Law that forbids homosexuality which forces Gay Palestinians to live in Israel?? I thinkits good for Pride for keeping non Pride groups out such as QuAIA whats next are they going to allow the KKK to march they also oppose Israel and Zionism too, something like the QuAUIA does??
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/22/10 12:48 PM EST
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Glen and Charles Require a Dunce Cap
Glen if you have the picture, by all means, let's see it. Charles, I doubt if you even know a Palestinian, gay or straight, so shut the #^$% up.
J Roman, Toronto ON
03/22/10 1:10 PM EST
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@ SAV - re; SWASTIKA in QuAIA group
There was indeed a person with a swastika marching in the QuAIA contingent. Pictures and video are readily available on the internet via various blogs who covered the event. Not to mention the man who wore a keffiyeh covering his whole head (only a slit for his eyes to see) resembling terrorist in Islamic beheading videos. And his skin head friends with shaved heads and camouflage attire. The whole group looked like a bunch of angry misfits amongst the joyous parade. It was weird and inappropriate to say the least.
Glen Hanson, Toronto Ontario
03/22/10 1:10 PM EST
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J Roman, Toronto ON
wrote:Glen if you have the picture, by all means, let's see it. Charles, I doubt if you even know a Palestinian, gay or straight, so shut the #^$% up. __________________________________________ wow I actually due and we were at Pride and he was rather insulted by your group but considering you are member of the QuAIA then none can seem to answer this question why haven't you people just go to Gaza or the West Bank and protest there?? This group is just another anti Israel group and has NOTHING to do with Pride or it's themes just bashing Israel. The groups also seem to be a mouth piece of Sid Ryan's CUPE Ontario anti-Israel agenda the give away was the the CUPE Ontario flags along with the Palestinian Flags along. Again this is not a pride group this a group that is funded by CUPE Ontario and if you want to march Please go to Gaza or the West Bank again what is stopping you???? or go march along CUPE Ontario on Labor day or on May Day. So Again what is preventing you people from Protesting in Gaza or the West Bank then???
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/22/10 3:10 PM EST
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3 strikes for Charles and glittery dunce cap for G
You can't read, you can't write and clearly, you can't think for yourself. ...and for your dunce cap wearing partner, Glen, I'll make one for you out of your old sequined hot pants and a spritz of silver body paint, that way everyone will know your a gay dunce. ...all the gay dunces are wearing one this season.
J Roman, Toronto ON
03/22/10 3:54 PM EST
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J Roman, Toronto ON
You can't read, you can't write and clearly, you can't think for yourself. ...and for your dunce cap wearing partner, Glen, I'll make one for you out of your old sequined hot pants and a spritz of silver body paint, that way everyone will know your a gay dunce. ...all the gay dunces are wearing one this season. __________________________________________ wow this is rather typical tactic of the left and that is the use of personal insults when someone does not agree with them and another reason why the QuAIA should not be in Pride since insulting people is not a theme of Pride either and Yes I was in Toronto and saw your little group and saw the CUPE Ontatheme but a Anti-Israel rio Flags, saw the Nazi Symbols and saw everything Glen,has said to. This was clearly not a Pride March with CUPE Ontario Anti-Israel Agenda with funding and the proof of CUPE Ontario funding is on the QuAIA website. The CUPE Ontario logo gives that way so does the Flags at Pride. I guess saying this means I'm telling the Truth about the QuAIA and the reason why they should not be in Pride and Personal Insults are just the what the left does when someone questions them and Personal Insults are not apart of Pride or what its represents. If you hate Israel that fine but it clear it has nothing at all to do with pride or gay themes and also QuAIA website give that evidence that its not a pride group or a anything about gay rights but rather a anti-Israel group if anyone needs more evidence. Unless your going to insult me again. But, the question is still something that the QuAIA can't seem to answer Why go to Gaza or the West Bank and have a rally there????? What is Stopping the QuAIA from doing so? PLEASE ANSWER WHAT IS THE QuAIA HIDING THEN??? Not one their member on this forum can't answer this question then other leftest groups do it all the time Why not the QuAIA???
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/22/10 4:24 PM EST
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Question to the QuAIA Please answer
the question is still something that the QuAIA can't seem to answer Why go to Gaza or the West Bank and have a rally there????? What is Stopping the QuAIA from doing so? PLEASE ANSWER WHAT IS THE QuAIA HIDING THEN??? Not one their member on this forum can't answer this question then other leftest groups do it all the time Why not the QuAIA?
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/22/10 4:27 PM EST
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or why does Xtra ask the QuAIA
Why go to Gaza or the West Bank and have a rally there????? What is Stopping the QuAIA from doing so?? Political Basis??
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/22/10 4:32 PM EST
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BAN QUAIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ban all hate groups from the Pride Parade!!!
Kris Melo, Toronto Ont
03/22/10 4:35 PM EST
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Video of QuAIA marcher with swastika
Here's a video of QuAIA marching in the 2009 Pride parade. Early in the video, you see a QuAIA marcher wearing a T-shirt with a crossed-out swastika (a photo of the marcher also appears on the webpage). See: http://reclaimingourpride.ca/ I don't buy Sav's arguments in his recent post. Why would a QuAIA supporter wear such a T-shirt when marching with QuAIA in the Pride parade unless he was trying to equate Jews who support Israel with Nazis.
Pete, Toronto Ontario
03/22/10 7:10 PM EST
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Pete, Toronto Ontario
Wow the QuAIA are exposed thanks Pete for the Video this was clearly a Anti Israel March and nothing to do with pride and this is what I saw too I just hope that Pride can be reclaimed and get rid of these hatemongers from Pride in 2010
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/22/10 7:21 PM EST
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These matters in perspective
Let's not get started on all the vile despots and dictatorships of today's world, where slavery, oppression of women, ethnic racism, homophobia and non-democracy are accepted government policy. None of those vile policies are policies of the State of Israel, the only democracy in the entire Middle East. Yet Israel and Jews were singled out for racist hatred at last year's Toronto pride parade. Clearly, if people have a genuine interest in human rights and democracy, they would go after the real demons. The list is long, but to name just a few: Syria, China, North Korea, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Uganda - just for starters. Attacking Israel is thinly veiled as their stand on democratic human rights. However in the light of day, the attacks are nothing other than racist anti-Semitism - an enigma, a paradox and a violation of all that Pride Toronto should represent. We need an unambiguous statement against last year's incitement to hatred, and to guarantee that it will be unacceptable at this year's parade. Surely, (surely!) Pride Toronto has to take a stand against racism? "Silence is the voice of consent". Tarring Israel with the word 'apartheid' is also a slap in the face to the heroic struggle against real apartheid in South Africa.
Jonathan Danilowitz, Tel Aviv Israel
03/23/10 1:14 PM EST
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In reply to Charles: an hypothesis
Is it just me, or it seems the level of conversation amongst commentators has sudddenly dropped down, in general? I'm not sure it helps the conversation... Anyway that is not my point. I'm wondering why Charles is constantly asking members of Quaia to answer his question about why Quaia doesn't go and march in Gaza or West Bank territories. The answer should be simple, it seems: because the group is based in Toronto. I guess it explains why they rally in Toronto, not in Gaza, not in Tel-Aviv, not in Paris or London. (It's like asking why Greenpeace-Quebec doesn't organize a demonstration in Moscow.) This is just an hypothesis. I can't answer for Quaia.
Gabriel Aumuld, Montreal Quebec
03/23/10 1:27 PM EST
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QuAIA at Pride is divisive
Gabriel, your point about "conversation among commentators dropping down" is reflective of how the unity of the gay community at Pride is decreasing. Many gay Jewish people (and their supporters) find the comments of QuAIA (and their supporters) to be hurtful and anti-Semitic (e.g., especially the comments of QuAIA supporters equating Jewish supporters of Israel with Nazis). So, they fight back. There have always been divisions in the gay community (e.g., gay men vs lesbians, left vs right, rich vs poor, beautiful vs ugly), but Pride was a way for us all to come together. The presence of QuAIA at Pride is divisive - especially when they hijack the gay rights agenda of Pride in favour of their campaign against Israel. From a gay rights perspective, QuAIA's targeting of Israel at Pride is even more offensive when they ignore the horrendous human rights record of Muslim countries that persecute and kill gays.
Pete, Toronto Ontario
03/23/10 3:46 PM EST
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QuAIA at pride rocks
Pete, no one in QuAIA equates Israel's supporters with Nazism. You guys keep trying to push that idea to make yourselves seem like victims when in reality you are just deflecting genuine criticism of Israel's state policies that you can't offer a rational defense against. Further, I would be curious... how many queer Muslims do you actually know? I can guarantee you that in QuAIA we know a lot, including people that are living in the middle east under the corrupt dictatorships you mentioned, including Israel's close ally Egypt. We are in contact with those people, we know what they are saying, we have an organic connection with them and we are working with them as far as we or anyone else is able. Can you really say the same thing? Can you really say you know what is best for them when you have no idea who they are?
Sav, Toronto ON
03/23/10 10:11 PM EST
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SAV = A**HAT
Sav - you are an anti-semite. Deal with it. Go back to your QuAIA meeting and discuss how much you hate Jews and get your boner there.
Ibrahim Foaz, Toronto Ont
03/24/10 1:50 PM EST
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Free speech
I hope that all you zealots about unfettered 'free speech' are applying your righteous outrage to the banning of Ann Coulter, and I would also expect that none of you were at that demo demanding the head of Margaret Somerville. Or is it only free speech for the positions you agree with? I'll watch for the Islamic Holocaust Week float (listing human rights violations done in the name of Mohammed and his sword) in the Parade. It'll be welcome, right?
Abraham, Toronto ON
03/24/10 4:54 PM EST
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In my mind's eye
I keep contrasting those pictures of gay men being hanged in Tehran with pictures of boisterous Pride celebrations in Tel Aviv. I've also seen pictures of dead Palestinian children, and Jewish ones too. Israel has acted and continues to act abominably. But so do Hamas and Hezbollah and the government of Sudan and Iran and many others. I have trouble with the inordinate focus on Israel to the exclusion of other bastard states. Having spent time in the Islamic world, it always caught me off guard how open the Jew hatred and homophobia are, even in religiously moderate and secular states like Turkey and Jordan. As much as I dislike what the state of Israel does in many ways, I can't single it out for defensive actions when in so many ways it is a beacon for human rights in that part of the world.
Abraham, Toronto ON
03/24/10 5:05 PM EST
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distoroting the truth
I see a lot of distortion of the truth about QuAIA's participation in last years parade especially concerning the anti-fascist tee shirt someone was wearing, its a fairly well known symbol, distorting its meaning to mean Israelis are nazis is like taking a no smoking sign to mean Israelis cause cancer. Just because you're able to imagine some sort of a link between the two doesn't mean a link exists in reality, if someone had been wearing a crucifx on a chain around their neck you'd likely complain that that person was blaming Jews for the murder of Jesus. Sitting around dreaming up things to get offended by seems pointless and counter productive and makes it much harder to take you guys seriously. Isn't there enough real hatred and anti-semitism in Canada for you not to need to invent incidences of it because you strongly disagree with someone else's message? I thought it was a very appropriate response to QuAIA in last years parade with the pro-Israeli, pro-occupation marchers and their signs. Trying to silence other queers because you disagree with them only gains sympathy for QuAIA and makes you seem like bullies. Censorship has no place in a free and just society, its the favoured technique of anti-gay bigots when dealing with the LGBTQ community. No one is going to accept the notion that criticism of Israel isn't allowed or is anti-semitic, people just aren't as stupid as you're assuming when you make such claims. You'd gain more support from the LGBTQ community by giving up your attempts at censorship, considering how its been used against us its simply not something the community is willing to accept. It'd be much better to focus on your positive messages about Israel instead of distorting the truth about QuAIA and demonizing those you disagree with, no one saw any hate messages at last years parade, maybe ones they hated but that's not he same thing at all, if there had been they would have been charged anyways and will be this year too.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
03/24/10 9:31 PM EST
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re: free speech
Abraham your comparison isn't equal by a long shot, it isn't Queers Against Jewish Apartheid after all is it, that would be a very different thing than QuAIA and likely would be a hate group since its being critical of an entire ethnicity and not a state, same as your proposed Islamic Holocaust Week would likely be considered a hate group because its criticizing an entire ethnicity and not a state, no one is attacking Jews for being Jewish no matter how much you want it to be about that it simply isn't the case, if you were proposing an Iranian Holocaust Week or an Egyptian one that would be acceptable because it isn't criticizing an entire ethnicity and is focused on the wrong doings of a state and not blaming all Muslims for the actions of the government of Iran or Egypt. Surely you don't blame all Muslims for the actions of the Iranian state or whatever state, that would be just as bigoted as someone blaming all Jews for the policies of the Israeli state.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
03/24/10 9:46 PM EST
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Rich, Toronto Ontario
From viewing the QuAIA website it clear the QuAIA has nothing to do with gay rights just another Anti-Israel Group also I did remember seeing CUPE Ontario Flags???? Oddly they do have a rather Anti Israel Agenda too and oddly the QuAIA gets funding from this organization also not a Gay Rights Group. Pride is about Gay Rights and liberation and has nothing to due with labor Unions or a Middle Eastern War? Also what is stopping QuAIA from having a rally in Gaza or the West Bank?? and no QuAIA member can seem to answer this?? Is it Islamic Law that Banns Homosexuality?? and why due to support the oppressors of Gay Palestinians a lot of them run to the Israeli Border for some reason?? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3211772.stm and oddly why due Israelis want to help them? http://www.glbtjews.org/article.php3?id_article=669 http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=12971 http://www.jta.org/news/article/2008/03/25/107714/homosexualpalestinian are just many examples oddly all attacks on Israeli Gay in Israel are condemned by the government including the current PM this is what he view after the Tel Aviv night club attack Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu expressed shock, and called for tolerance. He said the shooting is a violation of Israel's democratic values http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/a-13-2009-08-02-voa4-68657962.html
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/24/10 10:10 PM EST
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Being gay in Palestinian territories
Charles, you might be interested in reading this article from "The New Republic" on how Muslim Palestinian authorities have historically treated gays in Palestine. See: http://www.tnr.com/article/refugee-status. Of course, QuAIA ignores anti-gay human rights abuses by Muslim Palestinian authorities and instead condemns and marches against Israel at Pride.
Pete, Toronto Ontario
03/25/10 12:21 AM EST
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Report on Kyle Rae's views
Rich, you may be interested in this media report on Councillor Kyle Rae's views of QuAIA's actions in last year's Pride parade: Coun. Kyle Rae recently wrote to Pride executive director Tracey Sandilands saying he saw Gladstone’s movie and found the intervention of QuAIA in last year’s parade “completely out of keeping with the spirit and values of Pride Toronto.” See: http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/sueann_levy/2010/03/24/13347926.html
Pete, Toronto Ontario
03/25/10 12:43 AM EST
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Islam not an ethnicity
Rich, for Allah's sake, Islam is not an ethnicity. It is an ideology, as are all religions. "Israeli" is an ethnicity, Muslim is not. Many demonstrators attacks "Zionists" and "Zionism". And I don't blame all Iranians for the state violence of Iran either - so Iranian Holocaust week would be WORSE! since it singles out people based on nationality, not their choice of "Guy in the Sky". So your position is neither clear nor logical. Nor convincing.
Abraham, Toronto ON
03/25/10 3:14 AM EST
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When will Rich get it?
In the vile despots and dictatorships of today's world, slavery, oppression of women, ethnic racism, homophobia and non-democracy are accepted government policy. The list of countries is long, but to name just a few: Syria, China, North Korea, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Uganda - just for starters. None of those vile policies are policies of the State of Israel, the only democracy in the entire Middle East. Yet only Israel and Jews were singled out for racist hatred at last year's Toronto pride parade. Clearly, if people have a GENUINE interest in human rights and democracy, they would go after the real demons. Attacking Israel is thinly veiled ANTI-SEMITISM. In the light of day, the attacks are nothing other than racist anti-Semitism - an enigma, a paradox and a violation of all that Pride Toronto should represent. We need an unambiguous statement against last year's incitement to hatred, and to guarantee that it will be unacceptable at this year's parade. Surely, (surely!) Pride Toronto has to take a stand against racism? "Silence is the voice of consent". Tarring Israel with the word 'apartheid' is also a slap in the face to the heroic struggle against real apartheid in South Africa
Jonathan Danilowitz, Tel Aviv Israel
03/25/10 7:12 AM EST
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Israeli State is an Apartheid State - read it!
http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Document-3227.phtml Jonathan - you should read this. You should also keep Israel amongst the nations you list or do you condone the use of White Phosphorus in civillian populations and the killing of civilians waving white flags - read the Human Rights Watch report on the Gaza war. http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2009/08/13/white-flag-deaths-0 This one takes a moment to load - a 300 page study sanctioned by the Human Sciences Research Council, South Africa concludes that Israel does practice Apartheid policies. Read up on Ronnie Kasrils was born in Johannesburg, South Africa, 1938. His grandparents were Jewish immigrants from Czarist Russia (Lithuania). He now devotes himself to writing, lecturing and Palestine solidarity. If any one knows about Aparthied - he does. Take a moment and actually read from another persons point of view.
J Roman, Toronto ON
03/25/10 11:54 AM EST
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Another demo of Israeli plurality
An Arab woman has now been appointed professor at Tel Aviv University - a first for an Arab woman, although Arab men professors and lecturesr at Israeli halls of higher learning are not rare. In Saudi Arabia, women are not even allowed to drive. Yet I don't see anyone at pride parades demonstarting against sexual discrimination there, against racial discrimination and homophobia in Afica, dictatorships and censorship in a slew of other countries. Only Israel is criticized - and unfairly at that. Racist anti-Semitism is alive and well in Canada, no matter how much they try to hide it.
Jonathan Danilowitz, Tel Aviv Israel
03/25/10 12:02 PM EST
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J Roman, Toronto ON
So does Israel have Gay MK's and even have Arabs parties in the Knesset with full representation in the Israeli government???? and Israel Law applies to ALL including Arab Israelis. In South Africa that never happened and it clear again that the QuAIA is not a gay rights group BTW heres the full texts and note the part were its SAYS "APPLIES TO ALL" http://www.knesset.gov.il/description/eng/eng_mimshal_yesod1.htm this proves even more that QuAIA is not a Gay rights group and if you really knew what Apartheid really was Blacks in South Africa had ZERO rights and could not even be in the government and as for Palestinians here a clue according to Oslo accords they are govern under the PNA which is recognized by Canada, By the USA, By the EU, and even By Israel. So what about Ronnie Kasrils thinks I also bet he knows that 4000 people every year die in South Africa because of violent crime and does nothing about. It just proves that QuAIA is not a gay rights group and a Anti- Israel Group oddly Israel does recognizes Same Sex Unions, allows openly gay men in the military and even has Gay MKs and that all above are still issues the USA also all not allowed in Apartheid South Africa was illegal. Also I lived in South Africa under Apartheid and I could tell you what it was really like and Newsflash Israel is not even close in fact I find this rather insulting since you in the QuAIA does not seem to know what the word or what Apartheid really is since you have never experience it for yourself and Israel is not even close. Also I do remember South Africa getting the system from Canada it was modeled after the native reservation system if I remember correctly.
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/25/10 12:35 PM EST
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J Roman, Toronto ON
J Roman, Toronto ON I'm from South Africa and live in Canada and I know what Apartheid is because I did experience it and Israel is not even close from my personal experience and people in the South African government such as Ronnie Kasrils was the Minister of State Security and oddly every year 4000 of my fellow South Africans die of violent crime and he does nothing about it and most of my fellow South Africans know that Ronnie Kasrils has a political agenda that does not care about his fellow South Africans and most of us in South Africa don't agree with his views on Israel and I really don't care that Ronnie Kasrils is Jewish but his political agenda are not in line with the views of most South Africans like he could of done something about the 4000 people that die from violent crime which he did little about and also most South African Jews don't agree with him either on that issue but playing the Jewish card is what the QuAIA seem to be doing and it seem not to be a Gay Rights group but rather Anti-Israel group that cares little about Gay Right and playing the Jewish card is another example of this.
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/25/10 12:52 PM EST
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Charles did you even read the document?
did you even read one paragraph of the study? http://www.hsrc.ac.za/Document-3227.phtml Under part two: Review of Israeli Practices With Regard to Article 2 of the Apartheid Convention - it covers such topics as Denial of the Right to Freedom of Movement, Denial of the Right to Freedom of Residence, Right to Leave and Return to their Country, Denial of Right to a Nationality, Denial of Right to Work, Denial of the Right to Form Recognized Trade Unions, Denial of Right to Education, Denial of Right to Freedon of Opinion and Expression, Prohibition of Mixed Marriages, Expropriation of Land Property, Exploitation of Labour of Members of a racial group etc - the study analyses practices in the Occupied Territories - which include, East Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza in comparison to Apartheid in South Africa - then read Chapter 5 - conclusions. I suppose next you are going to say you were a Palestinian in a former life and really it's not so bad.
J Roman, Toronto ON
03/25/10 2:13 PM EST
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J Roman, Toronto ON
J Roman, Toronto ON Ever heard of the Oslo Accords??????????? Palestinians are govern by the Palestinian National Authority which is responsible for all those things. Israel does not have any form of Racial segregation like Apartheid in South Africa the one I had to live under it and we got it from Canada it was modeled after the native reservation system and No As a South African I don't need to read a report from Ronnie Kasrils when he was Minister of State Security he did not care about the 4000 South Africans that die from violent crime a live mostly ever year and many of us does know his political agenda and it seem that you never heard of the Oslo accords http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_oslo_accords.php and also the Palestinian National Authority here is the basic laws http://www.palestinianbasiclaw.org/ and here some info on the PNA http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/country-profile/middle-east-north-africa/palestine-national-authority http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority but it seem just from your comment that the QuAIA has nothing to due with Pride or Gay Rights just another Anti Israel group and people who don't even know what APARTHEID really is as a South African that is really insulting and please the radical left uses personal insults when they proven WRONG its rather a common tactic and the QuAIA is using personal insults against people and that does not belong in Pride either.
Charles for a correction in name, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/25/10 2:55 PM EST
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Charles - You are incredibly misinformed
Charles - With your latest statements you've made it quite clear that you have no understanding of the conflict.
J Roman, Toronto ON
03/25/10 3:05 PM EST
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J Roman, Toronto ON
Wow and just look at the Oslo Accords and you said "Charles - With your latest statements you've made it quite clear that you have no understanding of the conflict" another personal insult the radical left used it when they are proven WRONG wow just a common tactic and it proves that I'm right if you have resorted to personal insults this is how I now that I'm well informed and another reason that QuAIA is not a gay rights groups just a anti Israel Group the personal insults are the proof since the QuAIA has been proven wrong AGAIN. The Personal Insults tell all
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/25/10 3:12 PM EST
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A clearer picture fopr J Roman
Ronny Kasrils happens to have been born Jewish, but that doesn't make him the defender of the faith. He is said to be a guilt-ridden self-hating Jew who has been side-lined by his own party. A no-count whose yapping no one listens to anymore. Human Rights Watch (and the document you so proudly quote) have long since lost credibility in the international community. Anyone with a word processor with a good spell checker and an agenda against a nation can put forward such a document. Doesn't mean it's the bible. But here I am - brought up in apartheid South Africa so I know what I'm talking about there. I live in Israel, so I know what I am talking about here. I know that the Palestinians are suffering; the result of their short-sighted, blighted and misdirected leadership from way before Israel was a state. I know that BILLIONS of dollars in aid money thrown at the Palestinians is redirected to buying weapons to destroy Israel, instead of going to education, infrastructure, medicine, social welfare and peace. I feel sorry for them, as do all thinking Israelis. But supporting terrorism and racial anti-Semitism only makes the situation worse for them. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Jonathan Danilowitz, Tel Aviv Israel
03/25/10 3:31 PM EST
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Let's read to broaden our perspective
J. Roman - I want to add that I am presently reading Sari Nusseibeh's autobiography, as I want to have a balanced picture. You are right, one should read to get a broad perspective. May I suggest you take yourself off to the library and look for "From Time Immemorial" (Joan Peters) just for starters.
Jonathan Danilowitz, Tel Aviv Israel
03/25/10 3:44 PM EST
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Hi Jonathan
Should I assume that all Jews who are critical of Israel are "self hating Jews" as you say. Ilan Pappe? Naomi Klein? Dr. Norman Finckelstein? Noam Chomsky? Are they all self hating too? Thank you for the suggestion. I have read quite a bit on the topic and source out authors from both sides. I've also visited Israel and the West Bank a few times and talked to Jews and Palestinians living in Jerusalem and Hebron and talked with people while waiting for HOURS to cross at the King Hussein Bridge. I'd also like to clarify that I am not a member of Quaia, I didn't say that I was and I don't knwo why it was just assumed. My point in all this is that QUAIA exists to question policies of a state not make judgments about a people. Yes, Israel gets a lot of negative attention, but it is not always undeserved nor is it always anti-semitic, although I'm sure SOME people would hide themselves behind it. One should be able to criticise Israel without being called an anti-semite. It works the same way with any nation.
J Roman, Toronto ON
03/25/10 8:00 PM EST
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I do get it
I do get it, you totally and in every way disagree with the ideas and message of QuAIA, I'm not a member by the way and I'm not taking sides in the debate about which country is worse or which country is better, the only issue out of the region I am at all concerned about is peace, I'm critical of either side who does something against peace and supportive of either side which does something promoting peace, when ever possible I try to ignore the whole middle east situation since I truly don't enjoy talking to zealots and extremists on either side. HOWEVER when one sides attempts to use censorship to silence the other side in my home city then that becomes my issue and a major problem for me. Censorship has no place in a free and just society, in fact censorship is one of the things that makes a society less free and just, it doesn't matter how much you disagree with them or even if they are factually wrong they are free to express themselves and censorship is the greater evil than free expression since it cancels debate by only allowing a certain point of view which damages our democracy and it lets the strong dominate the weak in society so only the voices of the most powerful get to be heard and the marginalized are marginalized even more so. Where is the justice in that? I'm not expecting to convince you since you've already determined that only those who support your point of view should be allowed to be heard and anything I say that contradicts your view that only certain people have a right to express themselves will sound like gibberish to you, but there very well may be others who aren't closed minded reading these comments who should be able to read a defense of free expression. By the way QuAIA hasn't even come close to violating our hate speech laws, you should look them up for yourselves, plus many of their members are Jewish themselves so unlikely to be bashing Jews like you claim, some know the difference between Israel and Judaism even if you don't.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
03/25/10 8:30 PM EST
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re; Abraham
I support the concept of hate speech laws since I understand full well that genocide starts with words, not just any words though, incitement to hatred and violence are the dividing line but even then the risk of any sort of mass violence or genocide is only present when certain other conditions are also present but that's neither here nor there as far as our hate speech laws are concerned. QuAIA has never even come close to violating our hate speech laws by the way, in fact many of their members are Jewish themselves, they are quite capable of telling the difference between criticism of Jews and criticism of Israel which is something seems to be lost on many here, especially Abraham who said he'd never blame all the residents of Iran for something the state did but would blame all Muslims for something some other Muslims did, oh I do get it you're blaming the religion and saying its defective so all those who follow that religion are defective because of it. Have you ever read a definition of racism, bigotry, ethnic hatred or whatever you wish to call it? Your complaints against those critical of Israel have shown that you are a bigot, racist, hater because you blame all the members of a religion for the actions of some members, something QuAIA has never done themselves. Human beings are protected under the Human Rights act, states are not. I hear far more anti-Muslim comments in society today than I ever hear anti-Jewish ones, bigotry is a very ugly thing indeed.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
03/25/10 9:04 PM EST
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hypocrisy rules
Is criticism of Israel anti-Semitic? The answer of course is: sometimes! How can you tell the difference between a just critic and a rabid anti-Semite? Easy: a fair-minded person will criticize BOTH Israel and the Palestinians, because BOTH sides have gone to extremes and BOTH sides have committed atrocities; in fact, if you are going to cite Israel for "war-crimes", you have to also cite the Palestinians for the SAME thing, because they have been targeting civilians for decades. So, a non-anti-Semite will criticize both sides, an anti-Semite will ONLY target Israel for criticism. Has anyone here EVER heard the typical gay leftists EVER make a criticism of the Palestinians for ANYTHING? Hahahah...hardly! Well, guess why? Meanwhile, there is LOTS to criticize. Their use of their own children and civilians as human shields, the inclusion of the idea that Jews ANYWHERE in the world (and not just Israelis) are justifiable targets for assassination as part of Hamas' Charter...unfortunately you will NEVER hear any of this mentioned by those who think that one-sided criticism is not inherently anti-Semitic. Well, if it isn't, why do you let Palestinian atrocities go undisputed? Hmmm? Answer: sheer hypocrisy. Gay Pride should be about GAYS... and perhaps homophobia. Let them protest other things the other 364 days of the year. Showing up at Pride to criticize Israel is just opportunism, plain and simple.
Ken, Paris France
03/26/10 9:25 PM EST
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"From Time Immemorial" is a joke
Wow, Jonathan you really rely on Joan Peters for your knowledge of the history of the conflict? Cause I have to tell you, no serious academic or historian (with the sole exception of Alan Dershowitz, who plagiarized it) will so much as mention this book. It was originally accepted with open arms in the U.S. until it was thoroughly discredited by academics across the world. Today almost no credible historian will touch it, even in the U.S. Avi Shlaim, a respected Israeli historian calls the book "completely preposterous and worthless" Here is what Robert Olson wrote when it came out in England: "This is a startling and disturbing book. It is startling because, despite the author's professed ignorance of the historiography of the Arab-Israeli conflict and lack of knowledge of Middle Eastern history (pp. 221, 335) coupled with her limitation to sources largely in English (absolutely no Arab sources are used), she engages in the rewriting of history on the basis of little evidence. ...The undocumented numbers in her book in no way allow for the wild and exaggerated assertions that she makes or for her conclusion. This book is disturbing because it seems to have been written for purely polemical and political reasons: to prove that Jordan is the Palestinian state. This argument, long current among revisionist Zionists, has regained popularity in Israel and among Jews since the Likud party came to power in Israel in 1977." -Olson, Robert. "From Time Immemorial (Book Review)." American Historical Review 90, no. 2 (April 1985): 468. .... Israeli historian and Likud supporter Yohoshua Porath said "[i]n Israel, at least, the book was almost universally dismissed as sheer rubbish except maybe as a propaganda weapon." Just check wikipedia. This book is pure propaganda, the only people who take it seriously are people who _want_ to believe that the Palestinians have no right to claim self-determina
Sav, Toronto ON
03/27/10 11:38 AM EST
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Pals not blameless but appropriate focus is Israel
Ken, I don't think anyone is saying the Palestinians are blameless in this. Nor are the Arab states. For example, Israel's illegal siege of Gaza would fall apart tomorrow if Israel's close ally Egypt was not 100% committed to it. So Mubarak is equally guilty for the fact that Gazans are rebuilding their homes from mud bricks after Israel's massacre under operation Cast Lead. The Palestinians have attacked civilians and they are and should be condemned for that. But Israel attacks far more civilians and they are the side that has put the framework of the conflict in place -- in very clear, physical terms -- by occupying Palestinian land, settling Palestinian territory with the intent to permanently displace Palestinians from their land (in 1948 as well as post-1967), building an illegal military wall in Palestinian territory and putting Gaza under siege after decades of decimating occupation and economic and political interference. By comparison, the ANC military wing MK committed some acts of violence that would probably be considered terrorism. While that should be questioned, the appropriate focus of criticism during the struggle against apartheid was obviously the white South African state.
Sav, Toronto ON
03/27/10 12:11 PM EST
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Sav, Toronto ON
said Just check wikipedia. This book is pure propaganda, the only people who take it seriously are people who _want_ to believe that the Palestinians have no right to claim self-determina __________________________________________ Most Historians don't even use Wikipedia as a source and also most universities don't even accept it as a source the reason is because anyone can edit it and it this is even more evidence that QuAIA of the non gay rights of the QuAIA and even the misinformation its members use but after all you dismiss the people who lived under Apartheid and about Alan Dershowitz he a lawyer of Criminal law at Harvard Law School and I think his background more then qualifies him unlike then members of the non gay rights group known as the QuAIA who seem to love getting boners over the oppressors of Palestinians Gays and love getting into bed with other so called anti Zionist such as the KKK and Neo Nazis groups which are not even gay friendly just a thought
Charles, Halifax Nova Scotia
03/27/10 12:23 PM EST
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risk of genocide revisted
I just thought I'd add onto my earlier discussion of hate speech and its link to genocide and the other pre-conditions needed for genocides to occur, I studied genocide in university though its been some time so I can't give references but those interested should be able to find material on the internet, stick to legit articles not opinions. Anyways one of the other pre-conditions of genocide is new state formation, there are a few others but in the case of Israel this is the relevant one. There is far more risk of Israel committing a genocide against the Pal people than the other way around, new states are at risk for committing genocide because there tends to be wars for land and the conflicts between ethnic groups in and out of the new state. This can all be seen being played out in Israel and the occupied territories. In itself its not enough for a genocide to occur, more is needed, and btw in my opinion the risk of Israel committing genocide is still low due to the absence of some other pre-conditions. I don't believe it will happen unless things get much worse in the future but it is relevant to note that according to modern genocide theory its the Pals who are at risk of being victims of it and not the Israelis. I have heard plenty of calls from Israeli extremists to get rid of the Pals. either by forced resettlement or through violence if they refuse to leave ie. ethnic cleansing. They claim all of the Pal. lands for Israel and don't recognize the right of them to exist just as some on the Pal side don't think Israel has a right to exist either, neither side is innocent in that regard but Israel has all the power and is building settlements to take away from a future Pal. state. Banning criticism of Israel and the belief they can do no wrong contributes to increasing the risk. Genocides aren't always like the Holocaust and they can include ethnic cleansing. Please read up on conditions contributing to genocides before attacking my point of view, it will help
Rich, Toronto Ontario
03/27/10 4:28 PM EST
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Pride and Censorship
"Benlolo insists that criticism of Israel is the first step towards violence against Jewish people" This statement is ridiculous and is itself censorship. Imagine if the same thing was said about the Canadian or American government. The issue here is not whether or not Muslim countries would accept my writing, the issue is censorship of the Pride Parade which is just wrong. And, just to be clear, I am on record with believing that scumbags like Ann Coulter, Margaret Summerville and even Fred Phelps have the same right to express their opinion as everyone else just was we all have the right to reject and argue with said opinions. We'd all do well to remember that much of the world thought thinks that gay pride parades are an affront to common decency and shouldn't be allowed. It wasn't so long ago that crowds greeted our parade with jeers and screams of hatred. I don't care a whit about the conflict between Israel and Palestine anymore than I care about the Catholic Church's feelings about Baptists and those who try to frame this debate in those terms are simply pulling us into an unnecessary and unwinnable religious war. The issue here is censorship and the gay community should be the last to do it in any situation. Denying people the right to voice their opinions doesn't make hate go away. In fact it makes it stronger. Answer with a counter demonstration, your own signs or education but don't tell anyone what they can or cannot say. Those are the tactics of our enemies. Brad Fraser
Brad Fraser, Toronto ON
03/31/10 1:20 AM EST
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The Quaia should be banned
The issue is not censorship! It is the fact that Israel is not an "apartheid" state and marching in a gay pride parade is absolutely ludicrous. Will they allow a "KKK" float in the parade too??? If they don't allow white supremacists to enter a float, would it be censorship too?!??! Your logic is ridiculous just like "Quaia".
Tara McConnell, Toronto Ontario
03/31/10 3:26 PM EST
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Criticizing Israel does not equal anti-semitism
any more than criticizing the US invasion of Irag means you hate Americans, or criticizing Japanese whaling means you hate the Japanese. Benlolo made several inaccurate comments. His statement that anti-semitism is on the rise is pure fear-mongering, as well as his statement that Jews experience the most hate crime. That "honour" goes to.... US. Yes, that's right my queer brothers and sisters, we are the ones who experience the most violent hate crimes. A report from the Toronto Police Service states: "The report also found that half of the hate crimes motivated by sexual orientation were violent, higher than those based on religion, race or ethnicity. An online survey conducted by Egale Canada, a national organization that promotes equality for the LGBTQ community, backs up this data." (http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/rhvp/) So you see, Pride is still a political act. I am one "leftie" who will freely admit that there are victims and perpetrators on both sides of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. For me, the debate is not really about Israel vs the Palestinians, it's about censorship at Pride, for the first time in its 30-year history, and the way the committee was bullied into imposing censorship all for the sake of corporate sponsors, lobby groups, and a couple of very vocal homophobes on city council. I mean really people. Do you really think we should take our marching orders from people like Rob Ford and Giorgio Mammoliti who believe that AIDS was god's way of ridding the world of queers?
Val, Toronto Ontario
05/29/10 12:57 AM EST
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