Conservatives filibuster trans rights bill
FEDERAL POLITICS / Activist worries C-279 will be defeated when it returns to Parliament
Bradley Turcotte / National / Monday, December 10, 2012
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An Ottawa trans activist says federal trans rights bill C-279 will likely be defeated after Conservative MPs filibustered committee debate Dec 6.
 
Gender Mosaic’s Amanda Ryan calls the conduct of certain MPs at the standing committee on justice and human rights meeting “blatant discrimination."

 
“Rather than let 308 MPs vote on an amended bill that was agreeable to the majority of Parliament at second reading, these individuals imposed their will on the trans community,” Ryan says of MPs who, through the filibuster, ensured the continuation of already charged debate on the bill.
 
 
Conservative MPs Dave Anderson and Brent Rathgeber insisted on a more comprehensive definition of gender identity at the Dec 6 committee meeting.
 
“This is precisely the kind of discrimination this bill was intended to prevent. This was not about proper definitions,” Ryan says. “If they were looking for examples of discrimination to prove that this bill was needed, they need look no further than their own mirrors.”
 
Anderson was not signed in to attend the meeting, and a majority of committee members voted not to allow him to vote on amendments.
 
NDP MP Craig Scott took to Twitter and accused Anderson of “crashing” the meeting in an attempt to kill the bill. The meeting began with MPs carrying a motion to remove the term “gender expression” from the bill.
 
Fifteen Conservative MPs who voted for the bill at its second reading said they would continue to support the bill only if the term “gender expression” was removed or defined.
 
The bill’s author, NDP MP Randall Garrison, offered a definition of “gender identity” he sourced from the Yogyakarta Principles, a set of international principles relating to sexual orientation and gender identity created by a group of international human rights experts in 2006.

NDP MP Randall Garrison's trans rights bill is not likely to be passed now that the term "gender expression" remains in the bill.
(File photo)
“Gender identity, which refers to the deeply felt internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex that the individual was assigned at birth,” Garrison said. “This is a fairly well-accepted definition of gender identity.”
 
Rathgeber said his main concern with Garrison’s proposed definition is the words “deeply felt.”
 
“This may be shutting the gate after the cows have left,” Rathgeber said, “but I would like to see some sort of objective analysis to give credibility to the claim that one has gender identity issues.”
 
Proving discrimination on the grounds of race, ethnic origin or sex is simple, Rathgeber said.

“With respect to gender identity I challenge the sponsor of the bill to differentiate between individuals who are genuinely in need of this protection -- and I readily admit those individuals do exist -- and individuals who . . . might raise it as a matter of convenience,” Rathgeber said.
 
“If I’m reading this correctly, all an individual has to say is, ‘Yes, I deeply feel that I have gender identity issues,’” Rathgeber later said.
 
Anderson said his constituents have told him they are concerned about the definitions of “gender expression” and “gender identity” and said there needs to be a longer look at what the definitions are.
 
“If I’m married, I’m married not because I have a deeply felt conviction that I’m married; I’m married because I actually went out and got married. I think we’re falling down here,” Anderson said. “I don’t see it as possible to support this bill unless we do a better job of these definitions.”
 
Garrison’s definition of “gender identity” carried, making his definition and the removal of “gender expression” the only amendments approved. Ten other amendments were dropped because they pertained to the term “gender expression” or called for a definition of “gender identity.”
 
Garrison motioned for an extension of 30 days to continue consideration of the bill because previous committee meetings had been interrupted. The meeting ended before the extension could be approved, which means the bill must now go back before the House -- without the amendments.
 
Garrison tweeted after the meeting: “Some Cons filibuster to prevent amending trans rights bill in Justice . . . [Committee]. C-279 back in . . . [House of Commons] in Feb need more lobbying.” 
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Reader Comments


 
Good. Let anti-gay trans activists be defeated
In theory, I have absolutely no problem supporting anti-discrimination legislation covering gender identity. In practice, these laws are overly broad, and gender identity is vaguely defined. And trans activists objected to any definition at all. Trans activists are, after religious conservatives, some of the most anti-gay, homophobic people I have ever met. In the US, a number of them urged votes against marriage equality as a kind of "punishment" of gay and lesbian families who had the audacity to focus on gay civil rights. Apparently, we are seen as having an obligation to do whatever trans activists want, even though the vast majority of trans activists are not gay and care nothing for gay people. The best thing that the gay community can do for itself is to abandon the deceptive concept of LGBT. Let's be allies or friends with Ts, assuming they can moderate their homophobia. But the idea that we are one and the same "people" with them is a lie.
Jackie, Vancouver BC
12/10/12 5:35 PM EST
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@Jackie
Jackie please do not generalize what happens with the States with what happens in Canada, I have never heard this story you claimed happened about trans people fighting against marriage equality, but whether it is true or not is not important to this discussion here. This is not about the US, this is about Canadian law and Canadian trans people. As for your comments about the definition being vaguely defined, there is not any definitions for any of the other categories of discrimination. The definitions are flushed out in the courts, so why shouldn't the same be true for this? Trans people just want similar protection to sexual orientation (a protected ground that has no definition and is very vague as well). If you have so much problem with the implementation of this legislation, would you please explain how you would implement it, since you said you have nothing against it in theory.
Jewels, Toronto Ontario
12/10/12 9:20 PM EST
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Trans bullying/Deliberately vague laws
The homophobia and hostility of trans activists is just as prevalent in Canada as it is in the US. You have only to look at the bizarre attacks by trans activists on Xtra. Go look at the video on Youtube in which Xtra attempted to conduct a panel discussion to assist it in covering the "trans community." Xtra didn't have to do this. It was a courtesy. The panelists, all bizarre trans activists, extended no thanks nor even basic respect to Xtra. Instead, they promptly attacked Xtra for conducting the panel discussion in which they were participating, openly disrespected its staff, and demanded editorial control over the paper. This is typical of the hegemonic, bullying mindset of trans activists. Sexual orientation is, in the many dozens of gay rights laws in the US, defined as homosexuality, bisexuality, or heterosexuality. It really isn't that complicated. Trans activists want to leave gender identity undefined because they can't agree themselves what it means. That and it serves their purpose to terrorize businesses and individuals by leaving the boundaries of the law uncertain. It is unacceptable to pass a law prohibiting certain conduct and imposing penalties on Canadian citizens, and to leave unclear and undefined what the proscribed conduct is. It is absolutely unacceptable to say that the courts will work it out. Canadians have a right to know what the law is *before* they are hauled into court. When trans activists have tried to pull this nonsense of proposing a law without definitions in the US, as they did in Anchorage Alaska this year, the proposed law was quickly shot down. As it should be now in Canada.
Jackie, Vancouver BC
12/10/12 11:20 PM EST
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@Jackie and also some brief thoughts
Jackie, My experience with trans activists here in Ontario is that we also support full equal rights for Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual people. In fact, there are quite a few trans people who are also Lesbian, Gay or Bisexual after transition. There is some backlash against the LGB portion of the alphabet soup. In large part it stems from a being 'thrown under the bus' by the LGB community over the years. I would also not be surprised to find trans people who are also homophobic, racist etc. Much like I've encountered LGB people who are racist, transphobic, misogynist etc. With regards to the removal of Gender Expression from the bill, it's not gone yet. It's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Talia Johnson, Ottawa Ontario
12/10/12 11:21 PM EST
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To clear up any confusion...
... the bill is now proceeding to Third Reading stage without amendments. So gender expression is still included, and there is no reason now not to support Bill C-279. It's an outcome I don't think anyone expected. So for anyone who had any doubt what the bill would be at Third Reading, we now know. I, for one, don't want to cast any aspersions on Mr. Garrison, and believe he's spoken very well for this bill, considering the opposition it has faced. That is appreciated. I do agree, though, that the unamended bill going to Third Reading is the better bill.
Mercedes Allen, High River AB
12/10/12 11:44 PM EST
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Hope it fails
So sick of those panty-hose fetishists latching onto gay and lesbian political success. The DNA doesn't lie - you cannot change gender.
ron, Vancouver Bc
12/11/12 1:48 AM EST
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@Talia
@Talia Johnson: "There is some backlash against the LGB portion of the alphabet soup. In large part it stems from a being 'thrown under the bus' by the LGB community over the years." That's the problem right there. There is no alphabet soup. There are no buses. Do you understand? Gays and lesbians don't owe you anything. We are not "throwing you under a bus" just because, as gay people, we focus on winning gay civil rights rather than whatever issue you wish we focused on. We are happy to be friends and allies with anyone, but you have to get off of this notion that gays have consented to being absorbed into some kind of Borg alphabet soup collective, a contrived "community" that doesn't exist in the real world. The alphabet soup is a political tool which allows trans activists to issue demands of gay and lesbian people. As allies or friends, they would have to ask for our help. But if they could get gay people to buy into the notion that there exists a singular beast called "LGBT people," then they could simply demand. It was a nice trick and like all well-executed frauds, it had a good run. But there is no such thing as LGBT and never was.
Will, Toronto Ontario
12/11/12 5:03 AM EST
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trans reich called out
Thankfully there is this brief window of freedom here on the Xtra web site where the truth about the Trans Reich and what it has been wreaking over the past decade against gay men and lesbian who are NOT trans. At other sites like bilerico the Trans Police attacked with steak knives anyone who said anything against them to the point of hysterics, harrassment and potential violence. LGBT is a lie. And many gay men and lesbians are sick of the mishmash of fake issues into one lump. Supporting the human rights of everyone including trans people is not the point as it goes without saying, but bowing down in an oppression olympics to a group of people whose public reps seem often deranged or spoiled self-entitled brats is as pathetic as those who espouse this reverse bigotry (like Brad Fraser's libber-al patronizing of trans people as uber-Victims who gays should worship is beyond embarrassing!)This discussion will be moot when the Xtra Thought Police resume patrolling the boundaries for Queer Inclusivity and all trans criticisms will once again be punishable by eye stabs and silencing. ps One more word about Nina Arsenault and Toronto will trans explode from over exposure!
no one any more, Toronto Ontario
12/11/12 8:23 AM EST
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Well, one thing's for sure...
The level of hate and stubborn ignorance in some of these comments makes it easy to see why these legal protections are needed.
Nico, Winnipeg mb
12/11/12 12:17 PM EST
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With friends like these,
who needs enemies?
Catherinecc, Kelowna bc
12/11/12 1:37 PM EST
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@Jackie
Jackie again you use examples from America when you say "Sexual orientation is, in the many dozens of gay rights laws in the US, defined as homosexuality, bisexuality, or heterosexuality." Again american law is irreverent in Canada. In Canada we have laws protecting sexual orientation WITHOUT a definition, so why aren't you criticizing those protections as being to vague? To date no grounds for discrimination is defined in Canada, trans people are just asking for equal treatment to the other grounds, that is all. Your constant references to the US are irrelevant and meaningless when discussing Canadian law. And if you want to know about the law and what it would prohibit it is simple, judge a person for the content of their character, not any other criteria and you are not discriminating, simple and no problem. Furthermore your claims that trans people are against LBG people because Xtra had a panel after one of their reporters outed a trans persons former name and for refusing to use preferred pronouns is not being anti-LGB. Trans people were upset and although I agree the panel didn't have many people willing to be constructive, I didn't see anyone saying LGB people shouldn't be treated equally or fairly.
Jewels, Toronto Ontario
12/11/12 2:42 PM EST
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re: Will
LGBT is a very valid alphabet soup since all in it are sexual minorities whether by their sexual orientation or by their birth sex not matching their gender. If you want to start jettisoning whole groups of people because some members of the group are annoying or bigots where does it stop? Each particular group would also them either become another alphabet soup or it be the end of any sort of organizing to advance anyone's equality since no two people are the same, even if they share a sexual orientation or gender identity by your logic it would be impossible for anyone to work with anyone else on anything. Yes some trans people are anti-LGB bigots and some LGB people are anti-trans bigots, some lesbians anti-gay bigots, some gay men anti-lesbian bigots, some are anti-bi bigots and so on and so on. Then we'd have to divide the various remainders by their bigotry towards Muslims whether cis, trans, hetero, or LGB and bigotry towards Hews, Christians, Hindus, Mexicans, Americans, Africans, Asians and so on and so on. Then split all them again into groups by their bigotry towards people with addiction/mental health problems, or low income, or high income, or office workers, or manual labourers or unemployed and so on and so on. Then again divide those hundreds of groups by many dozens of other types of bigotry and then by preferences and before you know it we'd be having a few hundred thousand Pride parades each consisting of just one person. The whole point is that we're stronger together as a group, together we can accomplish things and achieve equality for all. United we stand divided we fall is a true statement not gibberish. Anyone who claims all members of whatever group are all the same is a bigot and we see that amongst people from each letter on LGBT and that's not okay but its also not a reason to refuse to work with other sexual minorities of whatever sort and allies even if they're different from us.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
12/11/12 6:59 PM EST
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typos
Its *Jews* not *Hews*, *of LGBT* not *on LGBT*
Rich, Toronto Ontario
12/11/12 7:03 PM EST
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Re Talia
I totally agree with most of your assessment of the conflicts between LGB & T segments of the alphabet soup. However when you say things that lump all LGB people together as being the same, such as *There is some backlash against the LGB portion of the alphabet soup. In large part it stems from a being 'thrown under the bus' by the LGB community over the years.* even though in the very next sentence you revert to accurately targeting individuals for their actions instead of blaming entire groups of people. Its this sort of claim that all LGB people are terrible to trans people that causes resentment amongst many LGB people. Of course there are some LGB people who are bigoted towards trans people & vice versa but to blame the entire LGB segment as you do in that part of your comment is bigotry too. I get very tired of being told how horrible I am towards trans people from people who know nothing about me except that I'm a gay man. I've always been a strong supporter of equality for all including trans people as are about 99.99% of LGB people I know. Just because some LGB people have been terrible towards trans people doesn't mean that all or even most are. When I hear that sort of thing I at times think if whomever really thinks I'm an enemy just because I'm gay why should I bother spending any more of my time protesting for trans equality? Why should I spend my time emailing politicians to support this bill or Toby's law or protesting against the anti-trans bigotry of some organizations? After all I've already been judged as having thrown trans people under the bus & labeled an anti-trans bigot. What keeps me going is that the trans people in my life aren't like that at all. They fully realize not all LGB people are the same. I gather from most of your post you realize this too despite the part where you claim that LGB people as a group have thrown trans people under the bus. If that's not what you meant you need to be more careful with your choice of wo
Rich, Toronto Ontario
12/11/12 8:20 PM EST
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Why I oppose the reactionary concept of LGBT
"LGBT is a very valid alphabet soup since all in it are sexual minorities whether by their sexual orientation or by their birth sex not matching their gender." Rich, I appreciate that you want to show solidarity with others. I have no problem with that. But LGBT goes beyond making Ts our allies. It asserts that they and we are one "people" sharing a common defining identity. That is a lie. Your sentence above demonstrates the illogic of LGBT. Sex and gender are not the same thing. LGBs are sexual minorities. Ts are not. Ts can have any sexual orientation, and most are straight. Ts are a gender minority. (You use the term "birth sex" but you are really referring to gender, not sex.) LGBs are not a gender minority. One's sexual orientation does not put one in conflict with one's gender. Although some bigots do hold that being gay is a gender issue because it makes gays "less of a man" or lesbians "less of a woman" that is a false, prejudiced belief that we need to confront and correct. "LGBT" does the opposite, embracing homophobic assumptions that being gay puts one in conflict with one's gender. LGBT is actually a pretty reactionary, if not homophobic, concept. I would oppose it if it did nothing more than misdescribe reality. The fact that it is homophobic as well really says to me that we have to oppose its use. We can still work with Ts, help them as allies and expect that they will help us. We do the same with many other groups, such as labor and feminists and racial minority groups, and we don't feel the need to "merge" our identities with any of them. It should be no different with Ts.
Will, Toronto Ontario
12/12/12 1:27 AM EST
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break the umbrella
Hi Jackie, not all T folks asked to be a part of this LGBT umbrella in the first place. i know i certainly didn't. strangely, here in newfoundland, i take heat from the LGBs for even suggesting the notion that trans folks disassociate ourselves from them. I am glad to know that at least one LGB folk out there feels the same. sexual orientation and gender identity is a dichotomy, not a community..
Jennifer McCreath, St. John's Newfoundland
12/12/12 6:10 PM EST
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As a trans woman,I disagree with 'LGBT' concept
As a trans woman myself, I see no valid point in keeping the 'LGBT' up. Clearly, the LGB are defined by their sexual orientation regardless of their gender identity, and the T are defined by their gender identity regardless of their sexual orientation. And it is clear that sexual orientation and gender identity are fundamentally different concepts. Just take a look at few of the trans activists and role models who have made a real positive impact for the trans community: Janet Mock, Lynn Conway and Julia Serano. The first two are straight and their activities are mainly focused on trans specific issues, while supporting the causes of the LGB community as an ally and not a member. Julia is a lesbian but the same can be said about her activism just as well. The priority of their activism goes to trans specific issues which do not apply to the LGB issues at all. The LGBs and the Ts can be allies but are not and can not be part of the same community either by definition or by historic trend. Even the main news and events sources of our trans issues and community activities are not the main LGB news and media outlets, as they significantly lag behind the trans current events and usually misunderstand and misrepresent them as well. And finally, given all these, trying to force a non existing sense of community between the trans and the LGB communities won't do any good for any of these communities, as we can see examples of this every day. Our priorities and issues are fundamentally different. Doesn't mean that we can't be allies though, as we have been mostly through our history. But given the progress made for the LGB community so far, and the current state of the trans specific issues, it is time to make a clear distinction between these two communities.
Lilly, Toronto Ontario
12/13/12 5:18 PM EST
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I think its always been communities as allies
I agree with Lily that trans and LGB constitute different communities, its why I usually, though not always, refer to LGBT communities instead of LGBT community. But it also goes beyond T and LGB. Cis gay men and lesbian women and bisexual people are also distinct communities. At least for cis folks gay men have more in common with hetero men, lesbians with hetero women and bisexual and trans people I'm not sure, I've heard various things, I've heard some trans women say they identify more as women alone than they do as queer or LGBT. I only know one out bisexual person and we've never discussed such things nor have I read as much about bisexual folks so I have no clue. But even amongst cis gay men there are many communities as well, the leather/fetish/BDSM communities plus the bath house community plus neo-con gays and so on and so on. Its the same with lesbians and I'd imagine bisexual people too not to mention trans people who are in various different communities themselves, after all everyone has multiple identities. It was just before my time but I recall hearing about the "battles" between cis lesbians and cis gay men yet for the overwhelming majority they were able to work together as allies and that's what I think is the most important thing. I think if anything its about time we start ignoring the extremists and the bigots in whatever community and just get on with trying to make things better now for all. I doubt the extremists and bigots of whatever group are doing much of anything to advance equality and individual freedoms for all anyways.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
12/13/12 7:03 PM EST
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For the love of Pete, Rich
…stop calling us “cis.”
Joe Clark, Toronto ON
12/17/12 4:06 PM EST
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Hey Sis...Don’t call me “Cis” !!!
Hey Sis...Don’t call me “Cis” !!! I didn’t give you permission to label me. The word “Cis” originated from a Latin prefix meaning: “to the near side,” which is antonymous with the Latin-derived prefix “Trans.” This usage can be seen in the Cis-Trans distinction in chemistry.” “The word cisgender has been used on the internet since at least 1994, when it appeared in the alt.transgendered Usenet group in a post by Dana Leland Defosse. Defosse does not define the term and seems to assume that readers are already familiar with it. It may also have been independently coined a year later: Donna Lynn Matthews...attributed the word to Carl Buijs, a transsexual man from the Netherlands, claiming that Buijs coined the word in 1995. In April 1996, Buijs said in a Usenet posting, "As for the origin, I just made it up. ...one day it just hit me: non-trans equals cis. Therefore, cisgendered.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender) Ya wanna call yourself Trans —OK. But don’t call me Cis. I hate the sound of it. I didn’t give you permission to label me.
Joe, TO ON
12/18/12 1:28 AM EST
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the term cis is a form of ethnic cleansing
Joes, you are in a losing battle over "cis". The Trans Reich has pronounced that homosexuals will be force labelled as punishment that trans people are the most oppressed and if homosexuals are truly trans allies then they will take whatever trans tell them, such as their trans-created label.If you are LGBT and Queer you do what trans tell you. If not, you are a hater and probably think you are "normal" and they are trans -- that is their other argument for using cis -- the assumption that anyone who is not trans claims they are "normal" and the others are trans therefore the need for a levelling equity term like cis. Bullshit. Bullying of the oppressed once they get power is always ugly and the arrogance with which trans throw cis in homosexuals face is just one of the nasty realities of the lie which is called LBGT.
not Cloaca Vinepod, Toronto Ontario
12/18/12 8:04 AM EST
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Well...
Well...not an expert here, however Trans "Reich" to me is quite laughable, since it harkens to a more historically well known Reich that had the power to crush whole populations. Since trans folks have nowhere near the same level of power (nor desire) to oppress and slaughter millions of people...I mean, let's get real here...
P.W., Vancouver B.C.
12/18/12 10:17 PM EST
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A note on the term 'cis'
There is no stigma attached to the term 'cis', it is merely a way to differentiate trans people from non-trans people and to open the debate to challenge the dominant cisnormative discourse. Just the same way that the term 'homosexual' is used to differentiate from 'heterosexual'. Take a look here for more info on this: http://juliaserano.livejournal.com/14700.html Cis is not directed towards any specific sexual orientation as a demeaning term, as by definition it doesn't address or refer to sexual orientation. People could be cis or trans just the same way that people could be hetero or homosexual. None of these terms implies being 'normal' or 'abnormal'. There is a fundamental difference between 'normal' and 'common', in fact neither homosexuality nor transsexuality are 'common'; statistically the majority of human population is cis and hetero, neither of which are deviant from 'normal'.
Lilly, Toronto Ontario
12/19/12 6:02 PM EST
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elitist bourgeois woman of leisure
Lilly, as a white middle class bi-hetero leisure class dillettante, how does it feel to be labelled against your will? How does it feel to be labelled without your consent? Trans people are open to chose whatever term they want to call themselves. Their invention and imposition of a contrived new label upon a group who did not ask for it nor accepts it is oppression. Period. Elitist and obnoxious. Are you elitist and obnoxious, Lilly, or do you impose labels on others for some other reason? There is more than a wiff of a Reich about this ethnic cleansing via imposed labelling.
nC, Toronto Ontario
12/19/12 10:23 PM EST
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Wow
That's all I have to say about the amount of venom and hatred I've just read, it really is sad. Wow. @ Nico, for sure it really does.
femme, toronto on
12/19/12 11:12 PM EST
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@nC more about 'CIS'
So 'bi-hetero' as you label yourself is not a contrived label but 'cis' is? FYI, the term 'cisgender' is widely used is gender studies and literature, as well as much of the feminist and queer literature, and is not exclusively used by trans people. Read a bit about it and you'll see for yourself. Again it is not the purpose or intention of any of those debates or any reference to the term 'cis' to demean anyone else or imply that something is wrong with them. Within this context, people are either cisgender, transgender or genderqueer, regardless of their sexual orientation and sexuality, and none of these identities has any privilege or advantage above the others. How you can relate this context to 'ethnic cleansing' or call me 'elitist' and 'obnoxious' based on this is just amazing.
Lilly, Toronto Ontario
12/20/12 8:26 PM EST
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and she shall be a fisher of men
Your reaction of "amazing" IS the response of privilege to its being called on. You deign to inform that Gender Studies long uses the term as if this has the weight of academic authenticity; where it is indeed the apotheosis of sham pseudo-discipline. Politically motivated adherants of this sham theory evangelize its concepts as gospel because to the believer they are TRUTH. But to unbelievers they are insulting and obnoxious. YOU are the problem and you are so entrenched in your own entitlement, you cannot see it.
pC, Toronto Ontario
12/20/12 9:51 PM EST
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Hatred
One only has to read the comments on here to understand why the rights of trans people need protecting. We are absent the human rights every other people enjoy in this country. What difference does it make if some trans people dont like gay people or dont like the term LGBT or use the term cis. It is news to me that I am responsible for what others say or that human rights protections should not be taken for granted. It amazes and ashames me that anyone would feel the need to debate this.
Amber, Toronto Ontario
12/20/12 10:40 PM EST
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re: Joe Clark
What makes you think I was talking about you? When were you elected to decide what language other people can or cannot use, I don't recall there ever having been such an election. Or did you just appoint yourself the lord of other people's language? I hope you're not too offended that I'll be totally ignoring your demand. Besides which no one is forcing you to identify as cis or to even use the word cis and I cannot fathom where you got the idea that you and me are in any way an "us", you presume far too much. Perhaps we're both gay but we're most definitely not of the same community, not even close.
Rich, Toronto Ontario
12/20/12 11:51 PM EST
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Amber I cannot find anyone who said that
Amber, can you find an exact quote from any of the comments that says that trans people do not deserve human rights protection. I cannot find anyone stating that. All I find is the common discourse that T is not part of LG and why. Highly critical of trans but that is not the same thing as denying rights. If you cannot find a direct quote supporting your claim, perhaps you could explain why you conflated a gay critique of trans into a statement against human rights protection.
land of goshen, Toronto Ontario
12/21/12 8:21 AM EST
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I assume you aren't really that dumb, Rich
Because any English-speaker can differentiate “us” and “me.” Stop calling *us* “cis.”
Joe Clark, Toronto ON
12/24/12 5:09 PM EST
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@Joe 'don't call us cis' Clark
You sound like those straight people back in the 80's who flipped out when 'heterosexual' became part of mainstream vocabulary. All your posts on Xtra's trans stories are a rehash of the same old song and dance- you think 'cis' is a dirty word and you don't want anybody to ever use it again because you 'don't like the sound of it' or something. If it really bothers you that much, why not lower your blood pressure, prevent twisted underwear, *and* give Xtra's readership a Christmas present by skipping articles where you know it'll show up? 2013 would be a better year for everyone here if you did.
Nico, Winnipeg mb
12/24/12 11:15 PM EST
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“Normative-Gendered” and “Fantasy-Gendered”
How about “Normative-Gendered” and “Fantasy-Gendered”? Cis sounds ridiculous and meaningless. Trans...Hmmm...It means “across” basically. Across what? Across nothing. They remain the same. Hormone shots and a penis surgically resculpted to resemble a vagina —basically a hole— changes nothing. Their DNA remains the same. Metaphoric fantasy lives are not the opposite of anything. Ya wanna call yourselves Trans —OK. But don’t call me “Cis” —I am not the opposite of you nor have any connection to you. You’re on your own. Cis doesn’t make sense and it really sounds stupid. As long as you are determined to call me “Cis” I will keep reading your stories/comments and will be commenting. Whether you like my ideas or not.
Joe, TO ON
12/25/12 1:43 AM EST
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@ Joe
No man is an island. You're connected to trans people whether you like it or not; neither your opinion nor your comments can do anything to change the fact that LGB trans people walk among us and always have.
Nico, Winnipeg mb
12/25/12 3:18 AM EST
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'cis,' like 'hetero,' is just a label
It says a lot that much of these supposedly horrible things the trans community did reduces to inventing and using the word 'cis.' The word 'cis' merely means 'not trans,' it has no other meaning. And frankly if you are offended about the label 'cis,' then you are an easily offended individual. After all, the gay community invented the word 'hetero' and applied that to straights. So was the gay community's motivation for that some secret anti-straight crusade? Um, no. It's just a convenient to distinguish between gay and not-gay, nothing more.
Sav., Toronto ON
12/25/12 3:54 AM EST
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Unreal
Joe you better get a wife pronto, because biology is destiny and you are built to have sex with women. You're spreading diseases. We have wasted billions on AIDS research that could have helped more responsible people instead. Disgusting hypocritical homos have to be the most vile, hateful people on the face of earth. I can't believe we've been chained to them. The religious right are schoolboys by comparison, at least they sugar up their words. Gays just let it all hang out. The sheer aggression with which virtually all topics remotely related to trans people attract weeks' worth of hateful (oh, sorry, 'contemptuous') comments is something to behold. The lack of self-awareness boggles the mind. I show comments like these to disinterested third parties for educational purposes: they are enlightened.
Jadis, xtraville nt
12/25/12 7:23 AM EST
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gays did not invent the word heterosexual
Sav, the gay community did NOT invent the term heterosexual as much as you would like to rewrite history. "“Heterosexual” was actually coined in a letter at the same time as the word “homosexual,” [in the mid-19thcentury], by an Austro-Hungarian journalist named Károly Mária Kertbeny. Homo and hetero stuck 100 plus years later because no one finds them offensive but merely descriptive. Cis is hated for political and not linguistic reasons. Just as trans people constantly attack homos for using the "wrong" words (mancunt, guypie, chickdick, maninacan, etc.) although these words are graphically correct in what they are describing -- some homos are attacking trans tyrannists for imposing a nasty epithet on us against our will. Where is the respect? You get what you give and you are giving smug contempt for non-trans people. And Jadis -- finally you got the message. Many homos do not want you with our group! So GO ALREADY!!! Get the message and break the lie of LBGT and go align with a group more receptive to you. Perhaps the "new" Muslims who seem to be hip to trans. And if you want to see hatred, then go to any trans "activist" blog and read their take on gay men and lesbians as it is a blood bath of eye stabbing and eviceration.
separate is stronger, Toronto Ontario
12/25/12 8:28 AM EST
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this field is required
Oh, I got the message a long time ago, in fact I was iffy with the whole idea to begin with. I have to admit, the level of bigotry displayed by the likes of you (and the Maoist-grade propaganda put out by elements of the L) blindsided me. Here is what you don't understand: cis applies to straight people too. When trans people talk about cis, they don't just mean homos, it's just that because you consider yourself the centre of the universe you take it as an offense to your "group" and don't consider the other 90 per cent of the population to which it also refers. Or are you presuming to speak for the entire human race? This "tyranny" talk is just laughable, and you don't even have the self-awareness to realize that you are cutting and pasting exactly what the religious right says about you. Tyranny! Indoctrination! Unnatural! Science! Epidemic of terror! Blood bath! Nazi Nazi Hitler! Nice try with the Muslim thing. Maybe try Sauron next time?
Jadis, a b
12/25/12 10:07 AM EST
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conflation of haters is very 13 years old
When heterosexuals hear that trans have invented a new term called cis they laugh out loud and find your group even more peculiar and annoying. Your comparison with the right wing against gays being equal to gays against trans is typically wrong since it is conflates all critique into a facebook concept of haters. Two groups were mashed together with neither being asked. It did not work and should end. Period. And people who are both are like people who have other dual or multiple identities (such as gay and Muslim or trans and blind) must deal with it and do not represent the entire group. More of these reactions (and the so called Maoist reactions of many lesbians to the trans tyranny) will wake people up to the waste of political capital that is expending in maintaining this false sentimentality-based linkage.
s is s, Toronto Ontario
12/25/12 12:52 PM EST
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@ s is s
Your stance on trans people boils down to "I cherish my ignorance and refuse to treat them with respect", so I very much doubt that you genuinely accept them as part of your community.
Nico, Winnipeg mb
12/25/12 6:45 PM EST
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last word as xtra moved this item off the page
There is no "community"! It is an invention by social worked queer theory gender infants who want everyone to be "friends" and not "haters". Homosexuals of all kinds (gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals when they are same sex) are not a "community". That word can mean anything from a demographic similarity to a sentimental picket fence of phoney comraderie and love. Trans are definitely not part of any "community" -- only social workers and queered artists pretend there is one so that the youth will think they will have a safe nursary for their queerness. Get real and wake up. The alliance is over. Move on. Trans people have a far greater ally in the pansexual-bipoly communities of new queer people rather than flogging the dead horse of homosexuals who will never identity with your issues even though supporting your full legal and legislative rights as citizens.
s is s, Toronto Ontario
12/26/12 8:01 AM EST
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GLBT people only care when it's self-serving
and no commitment is involved. The last comment is really on target. There is no gay community - what do gay men do when another is beaten up? They RUN. We don't help each other; hell, we don't even care to know each other's names or want to see each other again. We go out of our way to ignore one another as if we've never met. What we are as this awkward group of GLBT are adults who have an attraction for the same sex (unfortunately, not other people who happen to be GLBT - we want what we can't have) and resent the crap out of one another for not living up to that. Gay marriage has been the height of our self-involvement because it is about me, me me; nothing done on gay suicide, gay homelessness, gay isolation and addiction - nor do we support those who've supported US - (Idle No More - why NOT help out our Native friends when they've been there for us?). If we want continued support from all stripes and shades, we MUST be there for them too. If our number one problem is with each other, then we have much bigger problems to worry about than marriage or trans-this or whatever.
Jonathan, Fort Frances Ontario
12/28/12 2:42 PM EST
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Memo to Jonathan, the only gay in his village
Yes, of course, gays can treat each other badly, but is that the issue here? No, it isn’t. Nor is the issue some kind of rainbow coalition that gay men must join by virtue of being an oppressed minority. I assume you understand that the discussion is about the unwanted infiltration of transgenders into the legitimately constituted lesbian and gay community; how self-styled thought leaders in the latter insist up and down that B, L, and very much G are really just subsets of T; and how anyone who thinks otherwise is transphobic. (Heck, wasn’t Hitler transphobic?)
Joe Clark, Toronto ON
12/28/12 4:52 PM EST
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I agree: there is no real community
Although I fully support legal equality for transgendered people, I have to agree with the comment by "s is s" about the LGBT community being a phoney construct. There really is no true LGBT community. In various cities, there may be a collection of bars and stores in a neighbourhood that cater primarily to gay people (e.g, Church Street in Toronto), there may be a Pride Committee that holds an annual parade, and there may be a bunch of left-wing LGBT organizations that go on hate crusades from time to time (e.g., QuAIA, AIDS Action Now, etc), but there is no true community with the same bonds as other groups that one belongs to in life (e.g., family, school, work). Many people and groups in the so-called LGBT community actually hate or detest each other. At the end of the day, all that gay men and lesbians share is a common sexual orientation. Other than that, most LGBT people don't have much in common with each other and really don't enjoy each other's company. In the course of a gay man's life, he may find a relatively small number of other gay people who become his lovers, his sexual partners or his true friends, but he has little to do with the rest.
David, Toronto ON
12/28/12 5:03 PM EST
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