Monday, October 22, 2012 5:47 PM

Though I really appreciate Xtra covering these stories, this petition had already gained momentum last week and was covered by many the blogosphere and social media, not to mention LGBT sites; what took you so long to notice it now a week later? Again, thanks anyways

Lilly

Tuesday, October 23, 2012 2:18 AM

If the the BODY and the MIND of a Trans person do not correspond or fit together, or whatever you wanna call it... Then, should we do a makeover on the body to fit the mind, or do a makeover on the mind to fit the body? It's a legitimate question. Why one and not the other?

And how should we address Trans people? Should we refer to them based on their mental identity (she/he) or should we refer to them based on their physical sex (he/she)?

This is not a preposterous question... Because, when we say “he” for a person whose identity is male but their body id female, or say “she” for a male whose identity is female, then does anyone really know what we are referring to —the identity or the body? We cannot refer to both at the same time.

Even after a person has had genital surgery to re-shape his/her penis to resemble a vagina, she/he is still not physically a woman. She/he has not grown ovaries, eggs, uterus, clitoris, etc. and still has a prostate. No woman has a prostate...

Female to male Trans do have ovaries, eggs, uterus, etc. and NO prostate. She/he does however have XX sex chromosomes in every cell of her/his body along with a female skeletal structure. It is the skeletal structure in male-to-female Trans that gives away that they are not really female. The proportions make them look like “Bizzarro Lois” from Superman, or burly dock workers in drag. Whatever reactions they get are because of their male skeletal structure being more robust and with different proportions than biological women.

So we cannot refer to Trans people as “he” or “she” because we don't really know what we are talking about —body or mind. We need new terminology.

Joe

Tuesday, October 23, 2012 3:47 AM

A pronoun is the linguistic equivalent of pointing a finger at someone. If you need to point a finger at someone with a pronoun (which is needed sometimes in ordinary verbal communication), it is best just to do it in a way that that person is comfortable with, rather than trying to dissect their anatomy/history (and likely getting that wrong anyways).

To do otherwise would simply be rude, especially since there really isn't much of a reason that it should even be important to anyone other than the person for whom the pronoun is being used.

Savannah

Tuesday, October 23, 2012 9:17 PM

@Savannah --Thankyou for your schoolmarmish pontifications.

What you are really saying is that any mention or description of a Trans person can be done only in the way Trans community has decreed. The only conceptualization that is valid —right or wrong— is what the Trans community accepts. Any other questioning or interpreting is “Blasphemy!”

This is of course similar to the Taliban accepting only their conceptualizations and interpretations of Islam and the Koran. There is no possibility of questioning or interpreting in alternate ways. Those who try even with an inane tweet, are accused of “Blashemy” and jailed or executed.

Until technology is able to change sex at the genetic level, then sex-change surgery and procedures remain pure experimentation —but only as surface decoration of secondary sexual characteristics...In effect, cosmetic surgery. An unfinished business.

All we have is questioning and re-interpreting of beliefs and ideologies around the subject —to help improve the lives of Trans people. Preventing questioning is a form of fascism.

So I liken Trans people to Fascists and the Taliban. Lucky that guns are outlawed in Canada.

George

Tuesday, October 23, 2012 9:13 PM

George - good point. A trans person expecting you to use proper pronouns is quite similar to being oppressed by the Taliban.

Anyways, no one said you couldn't ask questions. You just aren't entitled to make up facts. The fact is that the idea that uniform sex assignment based on chromosomes is a myth.

Even without considering any trans person, there are already chromosomal XY individuals who are assigned female at birth. Then of course there are non-binary chromosomal variations that society tends to force into the binary gender system already.

The fact is, there is almost certainly no single scientific marker whatsoever that can be used to uniformly delineate 'female' and 'male.' Given the absence of any such system, I would question you, George, by asking why do you insist that such a system exists when it fact by any objective standard it does not?

Savannah

Wednesday, October 24, 2012 2:48 AM

Pure Sophistry Savannah...The whole of humanity and a few anomalies are not relevant to my argument. As if you had tested all of humanity for sex chromosomes... LOL

I stand by my original question:

If the the BODY and the MIND of a Trans person do not correspond or fit together, or whatever you wanna call it... Then, should we do a makeover on the body to fit the mind, or do a makeover on the mind to fit the body? It's a legitimate question. Why one and not the other? Why surgery and hormones instead of psychotherapy and gender training?

And how should we address Trans people? In case we want to write about or discuss the topic... Should we refer to them based on their mental identity (she/he) or should we refer to them based on their physical sex at birth?

This is not a preposterous question... Because, when we say “he” for a person whose identity is male but their body is female, or say “she” for a male whose identity is female, then does anyone really know what we are referring to —the identity or the body? We cannot refer to both at the same time with a single pronoun. A compound pronoun may be more pertinent.

So we cannot refer to Trans people as “he” or “she” because we don't really know what we are talking about —body or mind. We need new terminology. Voila

George

Wednesday, October 24, 2012 7:50 AM

If transgenderism is to be delisted as an illness, then any medical choices that trans people want will of course not longer be covered as medical needs and they will have to pay for it all (the hormones, the therapy, the breast amputations, etc.) by themselves. Has this been considered?

Claude

Thursday, October 25, 2012 8:54 AM

@George: "If the the BODY and the MIND of a Trans person do not correspond or fit together, or whatever you wanna call it... Then, should we do a makeover on the body to fit the mind, or do a makeover on the mind to fit the body? It's a legitimate question. Why one and not the other? Why surgery and hormones instead of psychotherapy and gender training? "
This is a very legitimate question, only this question has been raised before, and it has been answered several times in the related literature. The answer simply is: there are no know psychotherapy procedures that could 'cure' it, because being a transgender person is caused by a medical and not a psychological condition. Refer to many books and articles by the medical community on this subject, where it has been discussed in details. The diagnosis process by the medical experts and psychotherapists is there to ensure that for any given patient, it is not a fetish or character disorder or anything like that, but a real case of transgenderism. Only after this diagnosis has been done the patient is prescribed with hormones and possibly surgery, depending on each individuals specific case.

Lilly

Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:13 AM

@George: "So we cannot refer to Trans people as “he” or “she” because we don't really know what we are talking about —body or mind."
How would you refer to a biological female who looks very masculine? 'Her' body is masculine and comes across as male. Or to a trans woman who is fully and completely passing? 'Her' body is feminine and comes across as female. Chances are, you have come across trans men and women who fully pass and you haven't noticed that they are in fact trans, and thus have referred to them by the same pronouns that you are questioning here.
Looks like your question is more about passing, in other words: how would you refer to people who don't look masculine or feminine enough, and what pronouns would you use when referring to them?
The answer is clear to most people: whatever their legal status and/or personal preference is, even if you don't 'agree' with that. Otherwise you would need to perform a chromosome check and possibly verify genitalia and medical history to ensure that you are using the 'correct' pronoun, or you need to come up with very strict and precise masculinity and femininity standards which would disqualify many biological males and females just as well.

Lilly

Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:27 PM

@Lilly “How would you refer to a biological female who looks very masculine?” Masculine means “male-like.” The behaviour and mannerisms may be male-like, but if it has ovaries, eggs, uterus and clitoris, vagina, and breasts, then it is female. The bone structure and proportions usually gives away that a person is female, even on butch dykes. On effeminately behaved males, even without examining their scrotum and penis and adam's apple, we can see the proportions of their bone structure. The ends of long-bones are thicker in men, especially knee joint. But also subtle size differences in the upper and lower jaws give away maleness. It is the skeletal proportions which are the 1st giveaways. Only naïve Heteros would not see the bone structure and be bamboozled by behaviour and mannerisms.

Joe