Wednesday, June 9, 2010

Sandilands makes Pride Toronto's case to international Pride communities

Sorry folks, there's so much to share, I've given up on prose for now. A bunch of things to tell you about...

We've packaged all our Pride Toronto censorship controversy coverage into one easy-to-access hub in the hopes of providing the most complete overview. Check it out here.

If you haven't already, have a look at former Pride Toronto ED Fatima Amarshi's open letter to Pride Toronto in which she challenges the organization to change course. 

A memo from City of Toronto economic development and culture manager Michael Williams to Toronto Mayor David Miller. Is the mayor's office about to take a position on this? Xtra contacted city manager Rita Davies to ask a bunch of questions. She promptly returned our call but would say only that she has nothing to say until the motion returns to council. That's scheduled for Monday, June 14. 

Pride organizers in Madrid have cancelled the appearance of an Israeli group from that city's Pride celebration.

In an email obtained by Xtra, Pride Toronto board member and former co-chair Mark Singh encourages recipients to buy Pride Gala tickets.

Text below: 

Friends & Colleagues,
 
As you may be aware, Pride Toronto has taken something of a beating this year with issues that have consumed much of our time. We are now trying to refocus our attention on making our 30th anniversary the best Pride ever. To do that we need your help.
 
Participation in our parade, market place and Gala & Awards are down as a result of recent negative attention - it’s late in the game and our festival is rapidly approaching. Our only chance to try to recoup some of the losses we are incurring is to bring in commercial Parade entries and to sell tickets for our Gala. I’d like to ask for your help in promoting both of these participation options to your database.
 
Attached is our Gala & Awards invitation letter and poster which outlines the different ticket and table options available, the prices and the floor plan. Please be so kind as to forward this to your corporate and individual contacts, with a positive endorsement from yourself. Full details on our Award winners, entertainment and ticket purchases can be found on our website: http://www.pridetoronto.com/events/gala-awards/. Feel free to contact gala@pridetoronto.com with any questions.
 
The Parade application information can also be found on our website at http://www.pridetoronto.com/festival/pride-parade/  

Thanking you in advance for your ongoing support.
 
Yours truly,
 
/mark
 
--
Mark Singh, Director
Co-Chair, WorldPride 2014
Pride Toronto

Singh's life partner is Daniel Chimento, the owner of Dragos Productions, the event company Pride Toronto has hired to run the Pride Gala for the last few years.  

In an email obtained by Xtra, Pride Toronto executive director Tracey Sandilands makes the case for censorship to the international community of Pride organizations. 

Check it out below.

 

Pride Toronto ED Tracey Sandilands 

 

----- Original Message -----
From: Tracey Sandilands <mailto:Tracey@pridetoronto.com> 
To: human.rights@interpride.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 3:44 PM
Subject: [Human Rights: 290] Pride Toronto's political messaging challenge


Hi everyone


I hope you are all well. I apologize in advance for sending you an essay to read, but this is important and I’m expecting some of you may get dragged into it.

I’m sure that most of you have been made aware by now of the political controversy surrounding Pride Toronto at the moment, and I’m writing this so that you have our side of the issue before you get targeted for support as sister Prides. I will also be seeking InterPride Executive support to get this message to all those Prides not on this mailing list. Canadian Prides, in particular, risk being targeted in the same fashion and we are aware that some have already been.

You are of course completely free to make up your own mind on the issue, all we are asking is that you take account of this information before making a decision on where you stand on the issue. At the end is a list of the documents attached.

The issue

For the past two years, our Parade has included a group named Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QUAIA). Their cause is worthy and their participation to date has been peaceful. In response to various questions, Pride Toronto has issued several statements in support of freedom of speech for all participants. In the past year, Pride Toronto has been subjected to extensive lobbying by varied interest groups on all sides of this debate, and has received complaints of discriminatory and exclusionary messaging.  A pro-Israeli lobby group under Martin Gladstone filmed the participation of QUAIA in last year’s parade, and has circulated the video with calls to have them banned.

Now, for a number of reasons we have found it necessary to take the position that the term ‘Israeli Apartheid’ cannot be allowed in the Parade, and I would like to explain to you why this very difficult decision was made.

The various positions


There are several positions that have been taken by members of the public and the community on this issue. These are:

The QUAIA position, which believes Israel’s policies constitute apartheid and must be spoken out against.

The Pro-Israeli position, which believes that the anti-Israeli position is also anti-Semitic, and is frighteningly reminiscent of the years preceding the holocaust. This is largely being driven by Martin Gladstone, the producer of the short film ‘Reclaiming our Pride’.

The Moderate position, which believes that this is not really an LGBT issue and that the use of the word ‘Queer’ in its name is semantics and that the group is hijacking Pride as a publicity stunt.

The Freedom of Expression position, which believes Pride Toronto is applying censorship and that whatever the issue, people have the right to speak out for what they believe (this was Pride Toronto’s position for the past few years)

The role of the City Council

We are fortunate to have extensive support for Pride from the City of Toronto authorities. Pride Toronto is one of the City of Toronto ‘Majors’, eight signature events that receive city funding and support annually. The City’s funding for 2010 is projected to be around $130,000, and its in-kind contribution of policing services, garbage removal and street cleanup is valued at an extra $120,000. In addition, the City provides permits for the closure of 20 city blocks for three days for the street festival, the closure of the main artery Yonge Street for two consecutive afternoons for both the Parade and Dyke March, and the use of various city parks and parking lots for the eight entertainment stages and five beverage gardens that operate during the three day street festival, generating some $0,5m in revenue for the organization.

As a key partner, the City has expressed concern about the presence of the term “Israeli Apartheid” in the Parade. The City has informed us that the message of “Israeli apartheid” may contravene its anti-racism policy in relation to a person’s “place of origin”, and that the inclusion of a group that causes other participants to feel unwelcome contravenes the anti-discrimination policy. As a recipient of City funding and support, Pride Toronto is obliged to respect and follow this policy, a policy that also protects the rights of our communities against discrimination based on gender identity and sexual orientation, and to take such considerations into our decision-making process.

Recently, a motion has been tabled at City Council to revoke Pride Toronto’s funding and in-kind support services should this message appear in the Parade (attachment available). This has effectively taken the decision out of the hands of the City staff and placed it in the hands of councillors, many of whom represent ridings full of people pressuring them to vote in favour. This doesn’t bode well for the vote. Quaia has dismissed the idea that the motion will be passed, but they don’t have evidence to support their viewpoint, while we have received numerous letters from councillors telling us that they will be voting in favour (attachment available from Karen Stintz).  The vote was tabled at a city council meeting a few weeks ago and 21 councillors voted to finalize the issue there and then. Thanks to a few councillors working on our behalf, the motion was referred to the Executive Committee meeting on 14 June with 24 votes – a close margin of 3 votes in favour.  This has bought us some time in order to address the issue. The city authorities have also made it clear that the revoking of ‘support’ could well include the permits for the street closures.

The outcome of a ‘yes’ vote on this motion, therefore, would result in the loss of $250,000 in funding and in-kind value plus the use of the festival site, some of the entertainment areas and beverage gardens, and this would mean we would have no Pride festival beyond what could be held on private premises.  And we are four weeks away from the event.

The role of sponsors

Our current sponsors across the board have been supportive of the difficult situation we are facing. They have in several cases requested clarification on how we intend to deal with it, as they are being pressured by their superiors and shareholders.

With regard to potential sponsors, we have experienced reduced participation this year to the tune of around $300,000 with corporates that were on the point of signing sponsorship agreements when this issue became public, and have withheld their support as a result.

Both current and potential sponsors have made it clear that their reasons for supporting Pride is to support LGBT issues and the queer community, rather than an event that could become an ‘omnibus of unrelated political issues’ if this situation provides a precedence for the future.  There is a concern that while there is still much work to be done for acceptance of LGBT people in the workplace, for legislation that protects trans people, and to highlight countries were homosexuality is criminalized such as Uganda and Russia, that Pride Toronto could become all about Queers against abortion, Queers protesting taxation and various other things.

The role of community members and groups

Participation in our Parade, Market Place and Community Fair is down by 40% against last year and the previous year, resulting in a loss of revenue from fees of around $111,000. When the co-ordinators of these committees have made contact with former participants to understand why they are not applying when in some cases they have been regular annual participants for more than 15 years, the reasons given are the same: they don’t feel welcome, they don’t agree with the ‘politicization’ that is happening, they don’t believe QUAIA’s issue is a true LGBT issue, and most alarming of all, they are concerned about the potential for violence that the ‘inflammatory’ message presents. This is the reaction we have received from non-profit organizations, commercial float entrants, community groups, and marching bands.

The result of this, apart from the obvious financial losses, is that we have come to understand that we are alienating whole sections of the queer community and its allies through the inclusion of QUAIA and their message.


The role of politicians

The majority of our political supporters have stated openly that they are uncomfortable with this issue being included in the Parade. These include the Mayor of Toronto, David Miller, five of the top six mayoral candidates standing for election in October (one of whom is likely to be the next Mayor, and therefore will have significant influence on future Pride festivals), numerous city councillors, The City Manager, the CEO of Arts and Culture for the City, and the Head of Diversity for the City.

The role of InterPride and WorldPride:

Interpride president Trisha Clymore made it clear in email that it would consider the inclusion of QUAIA’s message in our Parade as the hosts of WorldPride 2014 ‘inappropriate and somewhat alarming’.

Liability to the organization

Currently our insurance costs for the festival are around $61,000. Should violence break out during any of our events that results in injury to people or property, we will be required to prove that we have done due diligence to prevent it. Our current Terms and Conditions of participation in the Parade call for the applicant to sign acceptance that no members of their contingent will have drunk alcohol, as this could result in violence or damage to property. Should we overlook the inclusion of inflammatory language that could incite violence either amongst participants or spectators, we will be liable for any injury to person or property that results. By allowing the inclusion of messaging that has had such widespread condemnation from the City, the sponsor organizations, community groups, non-profits and individual participants, we would be unable to prove due diligence should anything happen.

Actions to date

The Pride Toronto Board of Directors last year obtained legal advice on dealing with this issue, and based on that advice refused to take a position and allowed QUAIA to march.

Earlier this year, based on the complaints about discrimination and inflammatory language, we conducted focus group research which produced the finding that whatever their personal beliefs, the majority of respondents felt the Parade was not the place for this issue but could not identify an acceptable way of banning any specific group.

As a result of the focus group research, the Board issued a statement saying messaging would be screened and if found inappropriate would be disallowed in the Parade. This was considered censorship and was not well received by the community. This has precedence as in previous years anti-religious messaging, particularly some calling for death to the Pope, was removed from the parade.

Terms and Conditions for participation were drafted that would empower the organization to take measures against participants whose messages differed from those on their application forms.

As part of the decision making process the board extended an invitation to QUAIA to meet and discuss the options and the possibility of their participation without the term ‘Israeli Apartheid’ Quaia met with the board but refused to compromise on the term.

The role of the media


To date the mainstream media has mostly ignored the issue. In the runup to the announcement there were occasional interviews wanting to know how we planned to deal with it. With the exception of a few short articles when the decision was announced, it has moved on to cover other things. However, a local community newspaper, Xtra, has taken a very strong position on the side of Quaia, no surprise as they generally have an editorial policy of bashing Pride at every opportunity. This, coupled with the prolific use of social media that enables everyone to weigh in, is driving the campaign.

No matter how vocal they are, the number of people involved constitutes at best less than 1% of the community that attends Pride.

The projected outcome

The outcome of all the above and the result that we are facing is as follows:
-        A potential loss of funding totalling at this point $661,000 (a significant portion of our operational budget of $3,5m) which includes City funding and in-kind of $250,000, sponsorship of $300,000 and fee revenue of $111,000.
-        A loss of participation at this point by more than 50 groups – both community and commercial in the parade and street fair.
-        Potential loss of permissions for street closures and entertainment venues, which will result in cancellation of all events and subsequent loss of deposits paid previously for artists, staging equipment, and other suppliers amounting to around $300,000. The Pride Guide will be irrelevant, resulting in a loss of $80,000 in printing costs.
-        The cancellation of the Parade, Dyke March and Trans March
-        Legal action from sponsors and funders for the repayment of sponsor monies due to the inability to fulfil our side of the sponsorship agreements, through visibility at the festival, and the loss of $80,000 in revenue from advertising in the Pride Guide.
-        Legal action is also likely from suppliers with whom we have signed contracts, for breach of contract resulting from cancellation of the festival.

The outcome we were facing in the absence of this decision, therefore, was the cancellation of Pride 2010 and all future Pride festivals, including WorldPride, and the immediate bankruptcy of the organization which has been in existence as a registered non-profit with tremendous goodwill for 15 years.

Conclusion

Faced with the options on the table and the understanding that the risks of losing the entire festival and the organization was a very real risk, the Board of Directors of Pride Toronto made the very difficult decision by means of a democratic vote of 4 – 3 to disallow the term ‘Israeli apartheid’ from the Parade. At no time has the organization taken any position on the Middle East crisis; at no time has it taken any position against Freedom of Expression; at no time has it taken a position on whether or not the issue is a true LGBT issue or not.

The position Pride Toronto has taken is the only one that may be able to save the organization to continue the work it is mandated to do in terms of its mission, vision and values that have been in existence for a number of years, which is that of providing a festival that celebrates the history, courage, diversity and future of Toronto’s LGBTTIQQ2SA communities.

It has taken the position that the management and direction of the organization cannot in good conscience afford to risk the work of the past 30 years and the community that it serves on the possibility that the city motion will not be passed, and it has taken the position that multiple segments of the community cannot be alienated to serve the purposes of one group, however noble the cause of that group.  It has also made it clear to QUAIA that in spite of the risk of losing the city funding and support if we allow them to march, we are prepared to allow it if they agree to do so without the use of the words ‘Israeli apartheid’.

Currently we are taking a real beating with the fall-out of the decision, including the withdrawal from Pride 2010 of various of our 400 performing artists as well as our Grand Marshal and Honoured Dyke, the return of Pride awards from up to 20 former honourees, and the demonization of Pride in local media including regular calls for the resignation of the entire board and staff team. Various community members have offered to try and mediate, however mediation seems to come with a price tag: the reversal of the decision and nothing less. As I’ve outlined above, we understand fully that reversal will mean the end of our Pride and so therefore it is not an option for us.

We believe there is still much work to be done in our community. There are gay bashings that still occur in Canada; in terms of our Global Human Rights for Queers : What OUT is About program, because of our size and visibility, we can help to raise awareness of the atrocities happening in other countries where homosexuality is dangerous; there are trans people that are working hard for legislation that will make their lives easier; there are 1,2 million people that turn out every year for our festival, coming from all over Canada and the USA, often for that one opportunity in the year when they can be themselves in a safe space, when they can participate in events and meet others like themselves, and where they can be accepted without question. These are the reasons why we must survive to do this work, and why we can’t risk everything for one message. Yes, our Pride is political – in itself Pride is a political statement and for us that is the political aspect that counts.

I hope you will all read this with an open mind and feel free to raise any questions that you might have.


Warmest regards


Tracey Sandilands| Executive Director
Work: 416.927.7433 ext. 222 | Cell: 416.524.4554 | F: 1.877.513.6941
edirector@pridetoronto.com | www.pridetoronto.com <http://www.pridetoronto.com/>
Office Address: 14 Dundonald Street | Toronto | ON | M4Y 1K2
Mailing Address: P.O. Box 371 | Station F | Toronto | ON | M4Y 2L8
 
 
Proud to Bring WorldPride 2014 to Toronto!

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Comments

Wednesday, June 9, 2010 5:06 PM

"No matter how vocal they are, the number of people involved constitutes at best less than 1% of the community that attends Pride."

Why does this woman still have a job?

Community Member ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 5:28 PM

Congratulations for standing firm Tracey. The Toronto Pride committee has made the right decision to save the event in the face of the radicals whose political position could in fact end future Pride celebrations or transform them into a much smaller political protest for all sorts of groups who may or may not have queer issues as their motivator.

Don ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 5:27 PM

I simply don't believe her when she says groups have been dropping out if QuAIA marches, if that is so why have they not said so to the community? Sandilands has already demonstrated her willingness to lie to the community so why she would believe her now based on some secretive alleged phone calls she had with such groups. I can't believe that anyone honestly feels threatened by the term Israeli apartheid unless they have some sort of anxiety or paranoia disorder in which case they should seek medical help instead of censorship. Comparing QuAIA and the free speech campaign to the situation in Germany before the holocaust is simply ridiculous and incredibly offensive and diminishes the horrors of pre-Holocaust Germany for Jews and queers alike. Sandilands and the members of the board who voted for censorship have to be replaced asap with people who will respect and honour the LGBT community in Toronto even if it means doing with less money to hold Pride, a smaller Pride one can be proud of is far preferable to the disgrace of censoring members of the LGBT community because of outside pressure.

Rich ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 5:21 PM

"To date the mainstream media has mostly ignored the issue."

This is dishonest. Anyone on either side of the debate locally would acknowledge that Web, print and TV media have widely covered the protests. The attempt to shape her message to influence far-away others is clearly at work.

A list of coverage links should be assembled and forwarded to human.rights@interpride.org

Some truth, some lies ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 5:31 PM

Sandialands is seriously mistaken if she honestly believes Pride only exists because of outside money, that belief is an insult to the LGBT community which would still be celebrating Pride even if there was zero dollars to spend on the event. She also insults Xtra and PTP by claiming they are only supporting free speech at Pride because they are anti-Pride when in reality over the years they have a consistent record of fighting for freedom of expression, refusing to back down and taking the issue all the way to court to stand up for the rights of the LGBT community in Toronto, something Sandilands and most of the current board of Pride Inc could never even imagining doing themselves as seen by how easily they rolled over and tossed out the right of free expression when threatened by outside forces.

Rich ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 5:20 PM

The case in Spain that is censorship from the Pro Palestine Camp oh I forgot it not censorship if it comes from them, Keep the Middle East in the Middle East. This started out about the Rights of Gay Palestinians but its seems they don't care about their rights just another Anti Israel Group they turned out to be and they like to censor too like the Gaza Strip Club. Talk about censorship they are turning into the censors. If they really care then Go to Gaza what the hell is stopping them from doing so and have their Pride with the likes of Hamas.

Peter from ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 6:27 PM

At this point Ms Sandilands has no option but resign. She has misread her mandate and has succumbed to expedience.

JG ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 6:15 PM

Sandilands describes the moderate position as "...this (QuAIA) is not really an LGBT issue and that the use of the word ‘Queer’ in its name is semantics and that the group is hijacking Pride as a publicity stunt." This is not a "moderate position" but rather the position of Councillor Rae and Pride Toronto. Funny how they try to paint themselves as "moderates". PT's position ignores the fact that pro-Israel groups have attempted to pink wash that country's abysmal human rights record by claiming superior treatment of LGBT persons. We are being used to support Israel's propaganda war and QuAIA has an obligation to object to it. No matter how Sandliands obfuscates and equivocates, her priorities are clear - a big, vaccuous, vapid, bloated festival of party goers takes precedence over free expression and the liberation of queers eveywhere. Sandilands own words condemn her more eloquently than anything I can write. I am utterly disgusted with PT.

Martin ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 6:29 PM

Proud to be a part of the rational, more moderate, reality based side of this debate. Thank you for posting this, this actually for once represents a break from the bias of this online and print news organization. And thank you Tracey for having the guts to save the death of Pride from this awful group. The only way we can host World Pride 2014 as a city is to stand behind the people that have stood strong with the city, sponsors, and the real community: those that work hard and defend their rights boldly in the mainstream to have a bit of release from that pressure for a week. The 1% that have the time to debate precedents and the past is not one that is even entirely welcoming to anything but their internal view. This fight that is being waged against PT is totally unjust and the 9,999,999 of us will stand over them during pride and say "back off". The non-hysterical LGBT of Toronto: we don't sequester ourselves in comforting groups of like minded people to find the next fight to fight, we come out casually to our bosses, we deal with brother-in laws with patience. Pride is now to show our REAL community, EVERYBODY, that we can throw a party and we're not weird. Something that we fought for and won from stodgy politicians. The real battle to fight: Invite your parents to Pride, your family. Freedom of expression or a fuck you to the city that you don't really care to know?

greg ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 6:05 PM

"No matter how vocal they are, the number of people involved constitutes at best less than 1% of the community that attends Pride." This in a nutshell best portrays the complete and utter lack of understanding of Toronto's queer communities, our diversity and our history that is at play here. But it is an important call to action of its own. I was in the room among those who represented Pride Toronto (Mark Singh amongst us) for the first meeting with a few key representatives who seem to be mounting this campaign against QuAIA and Pride Toronto. I was profoundly shaken and shocked - yet impressed - by the 'professional' level of their mobilization and the power that they wield. Their numbers were apparent immediately and I received the volumes of follow-up faxes and letters, and spoke with those who called. I can tell you that most of those with whom I spoke were simply repeating strategic messaging/concerns that had been fed to them as part of an obvious larger campaign. When engaged more deeply in conversation it was clear that many had never attended Pride celebrations or the parade, and had no idea what they were commenting on. This campaign has been ridiculously successful at this point, and its success has come because of massive strategic mobilization and clever manipulation of every possible forum (very likely Pride's own focus groups among them) to build a case that there are 'numbers' who feel somehow uncomfortable and unsafe because of QuAIA's messaging. It truly is time for Toronto's queer communities and all of those who support free speech to mount our own campaign to demonstrate our own, very real, numbers, to show Tracey and the Pride Toronto Board of Directors just how wrong they are. Communicate to them DIRECTLY and be counted! Write letters, send emails, send faxes, call the Pride Office, leave voicemails ... It seems to be the only way to wake them up and demonstrate in a directly-comparable way that they will recognize that we are not just 1% and that this decision must be reversed!

A ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 6:58 PM

Sandilands closing words:"These are the reasons why we must survive to do this work, and why we can’t risk everything for one message. Yes, our Pride is political – in itself Pride is a political statement and for us that is the political aspect that counts." The question is who is "us" the sponsors, Mammoliti, InterPride or the Gay Community? Whose message is she going to sacrifice next in order to appease? After she called the cops on her own honorees who can trust her.

JG ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 7:22 PM

Sandilands I would like to know where your pulling that number of 1% from...I know that it is a lot higher then that....I would have to say you pulled that number out of your ASS....and just a a FYI Tracy the City had not even voted on this yet and will not....

For those that think the word Israeli Apartheid will not be ban from the parade we are printing t-shirts and they will be worn during the parade and there is not thing one you can do about it Tracy....If you want the bad press of police arresting marcher....just think what that will do to World Pride 2014.....

@Greg I would like to know where you get your 9,999,999 from if your going to spout out have some facts....most of the bars and clubs are against this move by Pride Toronto...So Greg if you plan to speak have some fact and just don't throw out number to sound like you have support

It is also so surprising that Tracy keeps saying groups would pull out of Pride if QuAIA is not banned....yet she has not given which groups would and has not release any numbers to date...her above number are wrong and are not the real numbers out there....Tracy you have been bought and paid for from outside interest groups that are set on destroying Pride....you do not speak for me and you do not speak any more for most of the Community....you will be removed from office and the Pride Board will be removed and a new Board will be elected....

But mark my words we will not be silent and we will be at the Parade and on the street and we will have our voices heard.......

DJ ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 7:09 PM

DJ: There are what? 2,000 members of the facebook group? That's been stable for a couple of months now. There are maybe 5 people that actually post on these threads... check out the recent article on CBC.ca or articles on the Globe, there you can actually see what people that read MAINSTREAM media think. The amount of people that attended pride last year? 1.2 Million. The amount of people that actually stayed through the whole meeting at the 519? 100 maybe... thanks Matt for panning around for us all to see how many people stuck around for the whole thing (more unbiased journalism!)

greg ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 7:59 PM

@Greg infact there are more then you know about... there are groups talking with corporate sponsers about this and their role they are to have with Pride....There are Gay business owner and other Gay movement that have taken up this cause...as for CBC and Globe all I can say is HAHAHA...to of the lowest rated media companies in Canada....hahaha...you funny man Greg...we will see who is right and who is wrong when you see the Board of Pride Toronto replaced and a new Board put in place.....

But I will offer you this come to the meetings speak your mind as we support free speech not like some others.....

DJ ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 7:17 PM

So Tracey, you're saying that the vendors - many who probably have no idea who and what QuAIA is all about are pulling out because of QuAIA? I remember seeing straight families and straight entrepreneurs selling all that rainbow shit made by people that are probably paid nothing in some sweat factory somewhere far from Church Street. If these are the people that are making a buck off of pride and if this is how Pride makes its money, I want no part of it. Bad Karma. But really, do you think they actually give a fuck about anything besides trying to sell crap to people? Queer people are probably pleasant shoppers though. I have a feeling that getting a vendors' table isn't easy either...and it rained last year - and don't forget the recession. I'm sure they took a loss because of it. Don't blame Pride's incompetence on QuAIA, you brought that all on yourselves.

roy ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 7:43 PM

Sandilands own words:"Currently we are taking a real beating with the fall-out of the decision, including the withdrawal from Pride 2010 of various of our 400 performing artists as well as our Grand Marshal and Honoured Dyke, the return of Pride awards from up to 20 former honourees, and the demonization of Pride in local media including regular calls for the resignation of the entire board and staff team". Does not sound like just 100 lonely discontents. Queers have freedom of speech bred in their bones. Underestimate it at your peril.

JG ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:36 PM

I wonder what might have happened if instead of quietly trying to force through this decision, Pride Toronto had decided to challenge the city and the anti-free speech lobbyists? Would there be no Pride? Or would those of us who feel strongly about free speech AND our Pride have rallied? Imagine if all of our great community leaders had been recruited to help keep Pride free instead of being forced to take a stand against censorship and corporatization? Hmm.

Marc G. ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:40 PM

My understanding is that many community groups chose not to participate when Sandilands decided to censor signs. She has no clue. As for 1%, is she counting all the straight people who come to see our parade as tourists who have nothing to do with our community? This is obviously a business for Tracey.

Tam ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:26 PM

@Marc G. Not only were they not recruited but PT called the cops on them.

JG ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:54 PM

Peter, Madrid Pride decided it didn't want to do business with the city of Tel Aviv because of the Flotilla incident. It didn't prevent a human rights group from marching. Very different situation.

Tam ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:22 PM

greg Pride is for the LGBT community not for the wider hetero one, I couldn't care less what hetero folks in the mainstream media think Pride should be about, yes there were a lot of folks who thought pride shouldn't be political and some who thought Pride should stick to worrying about what frilly things to wear on the floats or other mindless party stuff and to leave real politics to others. There were a lot of offensive comments on the CBC and Globe's comments sections, as there always is whenever any sort of LGBT issue is presented in the mainstream media. What should only be of concern to the organizers of our Pride is what the LGBT community thinks and feels, I'd argue most people don't actually support QuAIA's message but that most people support their right to free speech at least when they realize that the smear campaign against them is based on lies and distortions of reality. If there really is so many backing out of Pride when QuAIA was allowed to march then why were they silent about it? where are their voices now in the debate? I have yet to hear from anyone in these comments sections who said they wouldn't participate in Pride if QuAIA marched yet there have been an awful lot who have come out and said they won't participate if Pride censors us this year. I'm not a member of QuAIA but I am affected by this censorship as are all of us whether we care about it or not, free speech is not only the right to speak but also the right to hear both aspects make up the right of free expression. Based on what I've seen there are far more people actively supporting free speech than there are people demanding censorship regardless of the total size of either side and its always the case that only a relatively small number of folks ever get involved in any cause, that doesn't make the cause any less just. Besides the pro-censorship side works in secrecy and organizes behind closed doors while the pro-free speech side organizes very openly and operates so as many as possible can see what they're up to. Why does the pro-censorship side feel the need to organize in secret? Why are they afraid to show the public what they are up to? Long before the opposition to censorship started to gell they were sticking to the shadows, stacking focus groups and using other underhanded techniques, propaganda like Gladstone's video and relying on non-LGBT sources for most of their support so the claim they were afraid of the community's reaction to their support of censorship doesn't hold water. The pro-free speech side has always been very public and hasn't had to rely on non-community members to back us up, we have nothing to hide unlike the pro-censorship side apparently does. If the pro-censorship side really had the support of most of the community then why they did have to threaten to shut down or severely scale back Pride if they didn't get their way? Why even attack Pride at all? The pro-free speech side has only ever taken exception to the board of Pride Inc unlike the pro-censorship side. The pro-free speech side would never resort to trying to shut down Pride to get our way since we realize that only serves to harm the community while the pro-censorship couldn't care less about harming the community since they're only concerned with their own narrow interests and nothing else. Also why if they have the support of most in the community would they have to resort to threatening violence against QuAIA if they do march? Last year we saw a pro-censorship person throw a bottle at members of QuAIA, this year they've been saying there will need to be a lot more police present if QuAIA marches, an ugly underhanded attempt at intimidation if I've ever heard one, no one from QuAIA or any free speech supporter has ever resorted to violence or threatened to do so and yet the pro-censorship has used their own threats of violence as justification for not allowing QuAIA march, if anything its their threats of violence that have scared off some from attending and not QuAIA's presence. We must not bow down to bullies like Gladstone and his ilk and let them have their way, QuAIA has marched twice in the past with no problem, those opposed to them had done the reasonable thing and marched with pro-Israel messages to counter QuAIA's protest of Israeli policy, that is a responsible way to deal with the issue, both sides presenting their point of view peacefully and respectfully of the other side, but some in on that side have taken it way too far in forcing Pride to censor the term Israeli apartheid and creating such division in the community, if they hadn't done so much to smear and demonize QuAIA most folks would never have heard of them, they would have marched without incident and likely would have been forgotten about quickly like most other protest groups marching in Pride yet the pro-censorship side couldn't tolerate others having opinions they didn't share and just had to go out of their way to censor them and divide the community.

Rich ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:42 PM

I like this comment from Spain in the advocate: The Israelis have been extremely clumsy in their handling of this incident and many before (as well as doing some very dubious things, many of which have probably violated several international laws and treaties), and their slew of public relations disasters has turned Spain (and I believe many other European countries) into firm supporters of the Palestinian cause. And believe me, nobody here supports terrorism after decades of it here. The very fact that a country recently devastated by Islamic terrorism would favor the Palestinians over the Israelis just goes to prove how badly Israel has handled its affairs and image here. In Spain, the Palestinians are considered the victims at this point, hopelessly crushed by huge bully armed to the teeth. I think the Madrid organizers just wanted to send the message that it is not okay to be in favor of human rights for gays and lesbians, but not for other oppressed peoples. You're either a human rights fighter for all or you're a hypocrite.

Tam ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:51 PM

Sorry for the long post, I didn't realize how much I had written before I posted it otherwise I would have broken it into 2 or 3 parts.

Rich ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:39 PM

@ Tam
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah can you even read the story they were pressured by Pro Palestine Groups to do so this does sound a lot like the Gaza Strip Club and if you really about Gay Palestinians then Go to Gaza I hear the border is open via Egypt and the QuAIA can have Pride with Hamas or do they really care about them since it just sounds like a cover or do you just want to use Pride Toronto? Remember the Gaza border is Open via Egypt and have Pride with Hamas or are there reasons you don't want to go?

Peter from ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:58 PM

Mark Singh says "Participation in our parade, market place and Gala & Awards are down as a result of recent negative attention"

Tracey Sandilands says participation is down specifically because of reactions to QuAIA.

WHY CAN'T THESE PEOPLE GET THEIR STORIES STRAIGHT?

Shawn Syms ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:29 PM

Peter... here is where you and I are different... I looked it up, in Spanish... and the advocate did not give a story that was similar to that of every spanish newspaper. This is why I am a better researcher than you. They have statements from the pride organizers saying that any human rights group, particularly a group fighting for gay and lesbian rights, from Israel is welcome to participate, but not the city of Tel Aviv. When you read spanish, you can get back to me ok?

Tam ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:24 PM

@Don
You Stated "Congratulations for standing firm Tracey. The Toronto Pride committee has made the right decision to save the event in the face of the radicals whose political position could in fact end future Pride celebrations or transform them into a much smaller political protest for all sorts of groups who may or may not have queer issues as their motivator."

Why do you think there is a Gay Pride..... it is and always has been a Political group....how the hell do you thing Gay Marriage came about how Gay Rights came about...It was started with a Political movement Call GAY PRIDE...it has been an always will be a group to let other Queer Issues have a platform to speak....so I do not know what Gay Pride your doing but you have no clue about Gay history.......

DJ ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:29 PM

Really Tam go to Gaza I bet you just copy and paste it from a useful idiots blog but according to the guardian. the real reason was

found here in English LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
(www.guardian.co.uk/.../madrid-gay-pride-bans-israelis)

No Super Genius required

of course you have better research abilities becasue you understand Spanish,Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah but it does not take long to Google something unless you have better research becasue you looked it up in Spanish but of course and they did this becasue human rights groups Con everyone this video might be educational (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg) and those Human rights Activist looked so peaceful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU)

So why were they banned, those people in the Videos did not look so peaceful?

you might consider go to Gaza and have Pride with Hamas what is stopping you or the QuAIA? The Gaza border is Open via Egypt, since this did start out about the rights of Gay Palestinians( DO YOU EVEN CARE OR WAS IT A COVER?) or are you now a peaceful Human Rights Group?or just another Hateful Anti Israel Group? In those videos they don't act so peaceful.

Peter from ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 8:35 PM

Well said Tracey! You have expressed what I, as an outsider, have felt about this issue all along. I AM PROUD TO SUPPORT PRIDE! Earlier this week a community meeting (of sorts) took place at the 519 community centre, and one after another people took cheap shots at Pride's expense. It was a farce. I am appalled by the narrow attitudes and behavior of some in our community, particularly the most vocal QuAUA supporters, who have not even tried to engage in a TRUTHFUL debate over this issue. The people who speak out against "all forms" of censorship are the same people protected by Canada's anti-discrimination laws that to some degree censors. During the 519 meeting (that Xtra kindly live streamed) leaders from all over the place were invoking the spirit of those first Pride marches, comparing the struggle for queer rights to the struggle to speak out against Israel at a gay parade. It was so nonsensical. It was dishonest. I had to leave. Later that night random people all got up to the microphone and gave their equally disturbing, dishonest, and nonsensical opinions and ideas. This band of anti-establishment queers are totally OUT OF TOUCH with everyday Canadian LGBT folks. People come out to Pride to enjoy themselves and there is no harm in that, not everything has to be a goddamn protest. As Tracey points out, Pride was losing participants, losing money, and could not risk everything just to accomodate an ungratfeul group of pants-pissers. I hope all you unmoveable QuAIA supporters do boycott Pride. Your absence will barely be noticed and you certainly won't be missed.

Ryan ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 9:26 PM

Does anyone really care about the Israel/Palestine conflict, or even know the reality of it, or is everyone more concerned about bringing Pride Toronto down? Do some research before jumping on the bandwagon people. Israel is the most pro-LGBT state in the Middle East. Are we fighting for queer rights anymore, which has always been the fundamental roots of Pride worldwide, or are we mixing international politics unrelated to queer issues? Both are equally important, and both have a time and a place.

Chris ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 9:29 PM

About 30 years ago, the AIDS epidemic was annihilating the gay community in North America, bath houses and gay bars were raided by the police, gay man were losing their jobs and discriminated in housing, insurance and even credit.
The community pulled itself together and fought a good fight, advocacy for better living conditions, health and human rights took a long road to reach the life we live today. The same way of living that many in new gay generation take for granted.
Protests and the advent of gay pride and marches, followed throughout the last decade.
To see what is going on with pride Toronto is appalling, did we all got so bored with our normal accepted existence to the point of oblivion and internal bickering? Did the commercialization of an event that started as a grass roots group protest movement became so corporate that nothing more than money making for the pride industry and for the benefit of a few finally imploded the gay movement? or did the equalization of rights, same sex marriage, rights to adoption, turned us into the sameness of our collective automated society?
Those are questions that one should reflect upon and in the mean time the band plays on...

Mark Kedrick ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 9:37 PM

@Ryan I feel sorry for you....you have no clue why and how pride was founded and what it stands for...it is not you getting your rocks off....it is about right ....the right to speak about gay rights here in Canada and around the world....

You had your right to speak and to speak your mind instead you walked out .... show how much support you have for the community .....

As for the everyday Canadian LGBT folks why is it that they are email their dislike over the action Pride Toronto then....most are ashamed of the action of PT....

As for Pride was losing participants the only one that have pulled out are the ones that disagree with the path Pride Toronto is taking....and as for sponsor pulling there has not been one that has pulled out....

I don't know what fantasy land your living in but it is sure not one here in Toronto....

Maybe next time you will have some balls to speak your mind at a meeting and not be such a coward...

I for one will fight with my LGBT brother and sister for all gay groups to march and take part in Pride I did it 30 plus years ago and I will keep doing it til I take my last breath....

DJ ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 9:05 PM

Rich, you are a frequent poster on all of these media sites and I suspect you are in fact someone else who is using an alias to post as different people to make comments like a broken record. Your voice is the same. At any rate: "greg Pride is for the LGBT community not for the wider hetero one, I couldn't care less what hetero folks in the mainstream media think Pride should be about".

My point exactly. The people organizing these protests, do not want straight people to attend and have a problem with becoming mainstream. There was one speaker from Monday, the organizer of FunkAsia that had to stop organizing parties because they were becoming "too straight". What is the problem with welcoming all of our city to the spectacle that is Pride? That is what Pride intends to do. That is the mandate.

I do not accept an organization that is racist at its core; the handful of people that began this group, QUAIA. These people alienate those gay jews that are at a point in their sexuality where they feel as if they can bring their grandmothers to Pride... then this group.

So can all of those community members that have gathered around the distortions of this group like moths to a flame wake up? There is a battle left, and it's not 'destroy Pride over misguided ideas'.

The battle is to open up the doors to the utopia of love, celebration, and acceptance that we, as a queer community, are. If, after all of these years, those protesting only accept those in their own small queer communities, then they are surely going backwards. Forgive and accept and wake up to the hate.

greg ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 9:26 PM

@Rich, While I'm on the side of free speech on this one, as a straight female, I must argue your statements of: "I couldn't care less what hetero folks in the mainstream media think Pride should be about" and "What should only be of concern to the organizers of our Pride is what the LGBT community thinks and feels".

Unfortunately, the organizers DO have to take into account what mainstream media thinks/feels, because it is a reflection of what the hetero public thinks/feels, and that's where a huge portion of funding comes from (via taxes).

Furthermore, I would think that Pride events are partially about getting respect and acceptance from the 'hetero's' - which means the organizers must gauge the reaction from mainstream media. In no way shape or form am I saying that Pride should conform to mainstream's demands/expectations/reactions, but that it is in reality, one of the factors the Board must take into account when organizing such huge and publicly funded events.

If the current Feds had anything to do with this, they'd have the parade shut down completely. Remember, there's still a huge amount of anti-gay culture in western Canada (the mainstay of conservative support), and they are already against using tax dollars to fund Pride events. An issue like QUAIA just provides them with more fodder for their 'cause'. In fact, the feds didn't even HAVE this issue at hand when they denied the usual federal funding to Pride this year. Pathetic losers that they are.

So, while I think there should be more discussions (especially with the City it seems) and QUAIA should be allowed in the parade, that is my own personal and perhaps selfish stance. I DO however understand how the ED and the board have to look at all consequences, and cannot simply accept one group at the risk of losing the city support and the entire festival as a result.

My suggestion? (I'm not a city of Toronto resident). Put forth all this pro-free speech support in writing to your respective city councilors, so they know what their voters and tax-payers really think. Pressuring Pride is not sufficient - pressure the city who helps fund the event and is threatening to pull the support.

And don't exclude the 'mainstream' from your consciousness...you'd be surprised how much 'we' support free speech too.

Good luck everyone - I really do hope this will not ruin completely what should be a fabulous 30'th Pride.





AM ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 9:02 PM

@Chris. This is more than the Israel/Palestine conflict. It is about whose values does Pride represent. The sponsors, the City Officials or the Gay Community? The community I belong to and love treasures freedom of expression within the confines of the law. Do you not see how this is being sabotaged?

JG ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 9:02 PM

Oh, and DJ... xtra.ca? Yea, I'm sure there are more people that read Xtra than read the friggan Globe or watch the CBC. You are obviously a dumbass.

greg ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 10:29 PM

@Greg wow you can really show how narrow minded you really are Greg..... WOW CBC a out a out of touch news media that is going out of business I should listen to them....Globe...that has publish more false reports then any other newspaper out there and has only publish stories geared toward straight people and has done very little reporting on Gays until it serves them....

Maybe you should learn to talk to other and not just rely on media for your information learn to speak for yourself most of the gay businesses are not happy with the actions PT has taken...a lot of Gay friendly business are planning to cut their support to PT since the action they have taken.....

Oh and one other thing Greg the people they interview were mainly straight who have nothing to do with the community and could not care less what happens in the Gay Community....so if you think MAINSTREAM media is something that prints fact you are narrow minded they will sell what they want just to sell a part....

But like I said before your more then welcome to speak your mind at any of the meeting...but you will see this Board gone and Pride taken back....

DJ ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 10:42 PM

@ AM. Acceptability at what cost? Who profits from Pride? Is it about an honest celebration of homosexual life with all its complexity or a demeaning minstrel show for our straight brothers and sisters? Free speech goes at the core of who we are, no compromise. We fought bigger battles with no funding.Rich is right.

JG ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 10:35 PM

DJ. I am not talking about those two outlets as viable, solvent news organizations. I am talking about those that read/watch them. There are more people in our community, the community of the City of Toronto, that pay attention to them than those that pay attention to the sheer bias of Xtra.

Those that they interview. What does it matter if they are 'mainly' straight? There is a reason that this year the organization has added an 'A' to the acronym LGBTQQI2SA. We welcome our allies. They have voted for those that promise to fight for our causes. Without them, we would not have a Pride.

In addition, this rag that purports to report on news, does not reflect the community at large. I would like to know if the circulation is up or down. Not how many hits to this website, but the circulation. I'm sure that they are selling it to their advertisers, that online is the new media to help dissuade them from the fact that no one is reaching into the newsstand to pick up something that tries to sell a viewpoint to its readers.

Finally, it's unfortunate that there are some, card carrying members of Pride Toronto, that want to oust those people that have worked so hard to make something out of literally nothing this year. That have bridged the gap between reason and insanity to do something that still (hopefully) works with $700,000 less in funding, in addition to the sad fact that people that once led our community are being led astray.

I suggest that those who are so very eager to "flash mob Cyndi Lauper" devote their energy to reversing DOMA. Or pushing for legalization of marriage between two people of the same sex in Mexico and the US. These are our neighbors. Or protesting against Uganda. It has been, in my opinion, an utter waste of time supporting "free speech" for a group that has been in violation of the human rights code drafted by the majority of those in this province that has made this province proactively the first in the world to give equal rights to ALL of it's citizens.

There are other fights to wage. Can we get a group in the parade against human rights violations in the US and Mexico and stop looking to other, more far away countries in which to do battle?

greg ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 11:13 PM

ARRGH. Ya'll nearsighted folk make me sad.

greg ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 11:32 PM

Congratulations to Tracey for her excellent analysis.
Let's hear it for Pride Toronto, which runs one of the best festivals in the world!

BJ ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 11:55 PM

you all squabble. Some people make good points, but the most basic one of all is that QuAIA should be allowed to march because it's all about free speech my friends. Whatever country is the best for queers in the middle east, whichever news coverage is legit, it really doesn't matter. People can carry whatever beliefs they want, however deluded; however righteous. At the end of the day, the more fear you have of hearing another side just lends more validity to that side. QuAIA has received enormous coverage because of this ban. Irony is truly a Canadian craft. Let QuAIA march, believe what you want to believe, but don't allow censorship and quash free speech. In the end it just looks bad on everyone.

roy ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 11:33 PM

@Greg you need to get your facts straight. What happens with gays in this country and in any other country is the concern of the Gay Community....Pride can manage with 700,000 less and we have done it in the pass....Pride was started out with ZERO dollars....just because you wish to sponsor Pride does not give your company or group the right to tell Pride how it will be done and how it will be put on....They know damn well that it is just a way for companies and groups to look good in the eyes of the media and the people that they are selling their beliefs or goods too....

Pride was founded on the right to Free speech and on the Rights of Gays here and Around the world....so in case you did not know it is a world wide movement....

If you think most sponsors that march in the parade or send money to pride gives a rat ass about gay rights and the gay community your dead wrong....it is all a marketing game to them....

I do not agree with a flash mob of Cyndi Lauper as she has and will always stand up for gay right and I hold her in the highest respect for what she has done...

As for the People of Pride Toronto in the pass 5 years they have been selling out and not really caring about the Gay Community at all and that has been proven...

As for "There is a reason that this year the organization has added an 'A' to the acronym LGBTQQI2SA. We welcome our allies. They have voted for those that promise to fight for our causes. Without them, we would not have a Pride. " on this you are so wrong the allies did not make our pride... it was the marcher in the stonewall riots .... it was our first march down Toronto streets....It was in the first march in any town and and city and any country.... where the hell do you get your info from....are you sure your gay your sounding more and more like a straight person....hahaha.....you better start learning about your gay history b4 you do not have one as you have soon you do not know much about our community history.....

DJ ca


Wednesday, June 9, 2010 11:28 PM

Oh lord... DJ. I am not talking about things that have happened in the past, im talking about things that are relevant in the present and future.

'Allies' should be pretty relevant NOW because we have so far, as a community, been pretty discriminatory of those people as a group, even though they make up the majority of our community, the City of Toronto.

I may be biased. I came out to literally all straight people. They were very accepting of me in an environment of discrimination. They may have even liked me for who I was, despite the fact that my sexuality was about as relevant as my hair color. I had to put up with ignorant questions about my sexuality, but I have sustained those friendships throughout my short, mature, adult life. I may be different because I may be a little more patient with these people than those in the gay community that have had to put up with much harsher discrimination than I have had to deal with.

However, as someone from a different generation than those protesting against an organization that guarantees a safe space for all of those within the queer spectrum, I will vote each and every time for inclusion. I am not one that will backtrack on all of the good that Pride has done to meld our differences and our similarities.

5 years ago. There was different leadership at Pride Toronto. I am behind the current leadership that embraces everyone and understands the difficulties of some with the overtly racist messaging that one group has decided to flaunt. I chose to accept Pride Toronto as is, because the decisions that have been made by the current board are the strongest and most forthright that could have possibly been laid down.

My FOREVER Gay Pride Toronto will include everyone. I will not accept fringe groups that chose to hijack a parade that means to be inclusive to all. And I will mobilize and fight for that with more gusto than all of these sticky groups combined.

greg ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 12:39 AM

Peter, you assumed that I had not read the story, thus you thought there was only one story... so you are the one with really bad research skills... someone who thinks anything a politician says is worthy... you show a complete lack of understanding of everything... and I think you kind of know it and this isn´t the first time someone tells you this.

Tam ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 12:15 AM

Tam: You are an arrogant, egotistical person who pushes a very unpopular view. Can you fuck off?

greg ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 1:38 AM

God, Tam... you are quite the douche.

greg ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 2:09 AM

@ Tam

take what Greg has say because that is what you are and so is the QuAIA and why not go to Gaza you can via Egypt? The QuAIA could go and have your March and have Pride with Hams the Window has open so why not go?

Peter From ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 3:10 AM

Consider it's Monday the 14th and the city just withdrew its funding along with its in-kind donations including its permits. I wonder if QuAiA would mobilize around PT if they didn't censor the words "Israeli Apartheid." I wonder if we'd find a way to blame PT for the loss of funding or if we'd criticize city officials.

CB ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 8:59 AM

You will not sell free speech to people who respond with "Can you fuck off" or "you are quite a douche" but I defend their right to voice those opinions because that too is free speech. It is not too late for pride to get some help from this community. First off, let's have the names of the gay groups who have applied such pressure. Some of us would like to sit down with them and work through this. Let's have the names of the sponsors who threatened to pull funding unless censorship was imposed. This community has shown, historically, what it can and will do to companies that oppress the gay community, ask Coors Beer how they feel about it. Pride never asked the community for that kind of help for two reasons. The first, no gay community group has stepped up to take ownership of that pressure. The second, no sponsor has threatened to pull it's funding. It's a lie. If I am wrong, let's have the names and let us help. This decision was made in corporate board rooms, pushed by a Conservative agenda (Navigator), for a very good reason:

"The role of InterPride and WorldPride:

Interpride president Trisha Clymore made it clear in email that it would consider the inclusion of QUAIA’s message in our Parade as the hosts of WorldPride 2014 ‘inappropriate and somewhat alarming’. " That's the only part of Sandilands e-mail that is probably true.

It's about money. Not the kind of money a small gay owned business can provide, big big money. The only conditions attached to providing this money, to earn bigger money, is that our Pride Parade now fits exactly into the corporate mould. It must be interchangeable with the parade at Disney World every day at five. The people who are making these decisions are not members of this community. Gay people and rainbow flags are merely props as corporate interests now determine how best to profit from this event that has become so successful. The middle east conflict, which will never be resolved and can only end badly, has precious little to do with any of this. To the people who really have hijacked pride the QuAIA is just a brown stain on that clean pair of underwear and it has to be rinsed out or people might be uncomfortable. PT is not a victim here but a willing participant. Free speech has been thrown under the bus and I am sure there is more to come. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they build a security fence for world pride so that those of us who believe that freedom trumps profit will have a place we can stand and share our crazy ideas. Good thing the police have sound cannons now, they will come in handy. It about big bucks folks, pride has grown to big to leave it to queers and world pride just to tempting to let it be ruined by "politics" which are just so yucky. Let's all dance in the streets, blow our whistles and make sure our private parts are neatly covered. The world is watching after all. And this community? We are going to be arguing middle east politics while this shell game continues. Stop it. For pride it's about money. For the gay community it's about who actually owns pride and folks, it isn't us.

Peter Bochove ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 8:33 AM

Tracey's S's memo is shockingly ignorant, simple-minded and full of half truths and outright lies.She is seriously out of touch with the LGBT community and most of its grass roots leadership. It is all very sad. Funnily she says only "one percent" of community are for free speech--"one percenters" are what criminal bikers (eg Hells angels) call themselves (the one percent who forsake society's rules...) This ED has to go and fast. And numerous and loud activities to protest have to be organized (PCFS is doing just that--first step meeting Sat morning at 519; 2nd meeting on 17th).

Let's mobilize and work with all our hearts and bodies against this stupidity!

james Dubro ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 8:38 AM

@DJ. Uh, yeah I do know exactly how Pride was started. Victims of police brutality, employment discriminiation, AIDS, and REAL CENSORSHIP would probably not be jumping on the Elle Flanders bandwagon in 2010. The issues in 1980 were not the same as today. When hundreds of straight homophobic Torontonians stood on Yonge St in the late 1970s and chanted "We Hate Faggots" - the queer community did not get together to defend their rights to free speech!! Get over yourselves. Be happy that Pride today is overcommercialized, because if you so desire a purely political grassroots Pride like in the 1980s, then you'd have to turn back the clock to a time when queers didn't have a pot to piss in. Is that what you really want? The so called Pride Coalition for Free Speech thus far have not come up with any explanation as to how to save Pride AND make it a political free-for-all. Xtra's head editorial staff have said Pride should simply scale back, cut their budget by $100,000+ and turn the festival into a BYOB picnic, like that's the only way we can save the integrity of Pride. Give me a break. Boycotting ticketed events and covering your mouths in duct tape will hardly save the integrity of Pride, it will just further fragment our community more between those grounded in reality and those who yearn for a make-believe world.

Ryan ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 8:01 AM

Morning James, doesn't that 1% argument remind you of the ongoing debate decades ago as to what percentage of the population was gay? Do you suppose PT got it's hands on the 1981 Toronto Sun's playbook?

Peter Bochove ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 8:15 AM

Great letter from Sandilands. I fully support Pride Toronto's decision to keep angry protesters out of the parade. It's unfortunate that QAIA is bringing Middle East divisiveness to Toronto, just as it was when the Tamil Tiger supporters shut down University and the Gardiner. As a gay Canadian, I'm offended that this group (QAIA) is threatening to ruin LGBT Pride on behalf of an intolerant people who would surely kick my ass for being gay if not hang me in a public square.

Grant ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:16 AM

@Greg Well you keep your current leadership us that care about the direction of pride will make the changes...you were most likely the one sitting on your ass when we were fighting for Gay Right or not even in the Gay Community....Pride is not about how many time you can get laid Greg or how shit face you can get....it is and always has been a platform for change...

@Ryan the same goes for you.....Pride here and around is political and well always be...how the fuck do you think changes took place oh wait you were sitting on your ass with Greg just fucking the week away and then not giving a rat ass about pride and the community....

@Tam good girl....you see when People like Greg can come up with something they resort to attacks on people......hugs babe girls....

DJ ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:30 AM

Peter, I really admire what you do. I was 20 when I came to this city and it was not long before I visited Spa Xcess. I always enjoy describing to my straight friends the incredible freedom of patronizing a bath house. They will never understand what that feeling is like.

However, that battle was hard fought and won. And the battle was fought so that I would be able to go, and at some point, be able to describe that experience to people fearlessly. And I have. Now, when my straight friends come to Toronto, to fully support me and my lifestyle, how can I welcome them to ALL of my city?

I can take them to Goodhandy's and have the bouncer congratulate them for being so open minded because they are going to a bar that has live gay sex. Peter, I love you, but THIS is MY battle. My life is totally inclusive of all of those in it. I am exposed to everyone, even those I'm afraid of initially of accepting it.

greg ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:42 AM

Oh, and thank you SO MUCH Mandy and Todd. The space is dynamic, accepting, and everything that an adventurous young queer could ask for. PRESENTLY. You're fighting the REAL battle every day.

greg ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 10:50 AM

Thank you Greg. I hope you know that in 1981 it was my bathhouse, The Richmond Street Health Emporium, that was destroyed by the police, who felt free to use hate speech before, during and after that event. That is still what drives me to participate. I know what hate speech and hate crimes are, having been the victim of both. I hope this community can get back to civil discourse sometime soon. If we all try to work together perhaps we can rescue Pride for all of us. The people who fought the bathhouse raid battles, those that are still with us, have almost all withdrawn from this event. Those who haven't will no doubt do so soon. Pride Toronto has decided it will ignore and trivialize the deep concern their decision has sparked in this community. I do understand why people are offended by the words "Israeli Apartheid". I was offended when a police officer, raiding a bathhouse remarked it was a shame the showers were not hooked up to a gas line. The first example is uncomfortable speech, the second is hate speech. We need to rise above all of that, as one community, and understand that we must always be free to speak because if we aren't we will never again be able to defend ourselves. We will be confined to the "Free Speech Area" at best. Glad you like Spa Excess Greg. It came with a hefty price tag. As an aside, one of the pride sponsors that seems so deeply involved in all of this is the TD bank. When we were building Spa Excess we looked to get a small business loan in the modest amount of $250,000.00. The C.I.B.C. came through with that loan but not before we had been refused by every other bank. The TD bank didn't bother to cloak their disgust at our request. They told us our business was "unpalatable" and that was their official reason for refusal. These people should not be the new owners of Pride.

Peter Bochove ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:04 AM

And this is the point. Forgive and forget. You did it, you created the space, but whats with all the resentment? That's a very nasty quality. Am I friends NOW with the people that called me a Fag throughout my childhood? Yes. I have a thick skin. That comes with the territory of being PROUD. Can you shake hands with the officers that have come to understand the err of their ways? So, the battle that those who have fought just and righteous causes for the majority of their existence comes down to defending QUAIA. Can we all reassess this?

greg ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:20 AM

@Greg you really can not read can you....Peter Bochove had stated his unhappiness for the Path Pride Toronto is taking and how more will be pulling out....you really really do need to learn to read.....hahaha...people do forgive Greg but we will never forget.....History is not something that is just toss aside....History is something that you pass on so that the fight for freedom grows....

we forgive acts in WW1 but do not forget we forgive acts in WW2 but do not for get we forgive act of other crimes but do not forget.....we forgive the Stonewall Riots but do not forget....

Freedom come at a cost and you can not pick and choice just to get sponsors....when that is done you no longer are a movement for Freedom.....and Sorry to say Greg but Pride has been and always will be a movement for Freedom here in Canada and in the World...

PS Peter Thank You for taking a stand and for keeping your values....You are Truly a Leader in the Gay Movement and I Thank You

DJ ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:58 AM

Happy Pride Everyone!

Chris ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:25 AM

Happy Pride!!! Pride Guide already?!

greg ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 12:33 PM

I don't envy anyone at Pride Toronto. They are in a really tough position.

But this letter from the ED is really unfortunate, disappointing and anger inducing. I've been trying to keep up with the controversy and have flipped back and forth with my position. I work in the not-for-profit industry with funding that comes from the City, arts councils, foundations, etc. It's difficult to keep all of their rules and expectation balls in the air and still accomplish what you set out to achieve so I understand the position PT is in.

What's so disappointing and angering is their (PT) complete lack of ownership for any of the controversy. There isn't a single reference to anything that they have done to contribute to this issue and the escalation of the problem they are in right now. And frankly, I just don't like the tone of parts of this letter. It's accusatory, disrespectful and childish: "However, a local community newspaper, Xtra, has taken a very strong position on the side of Quaia, no surprise as they generally have an editorial policy of bashing Pride at every opportunity." "No matter how vocal they are, the number of people involved constitutes at best less than 1% of the community that attends Pride."

I am losing faith in PT's ability to manage conflict and respect for the ED in her handling of this whole controversy. I seriously hope that they learn from this whole experience and come out better for it.

For the record I don't personally think that the Pride Parade is the forum for the issue QuAIA wants to raise, but I think it's more important to stand up for what you believe in and if PT really does believe in freedom of speech then they should walk the talk.

It's really disheartening that this has created such an unhealthy divide in the GLBT community. Pride is one time in the year where we traditionally stand together en masse loud and proud and show the community at large who we are. It's positive, festive and inclusive...sadly, this year doesn't feel like it's going to be like that.

Mike ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 12:51 PM

greg, I couldn't care less what you have to say. Peter here lacks logic, you are calling QuAIA a fringe group but it appears a significant part of the queer community, from past honourees to participants, performers, speakers at Pride, support their right to free speech? I am arrogant? You said "I will not accept fringe groups that chose to hijack a parade that means to be inclusive to all." Who died and made you king? What have you done for our community Greg? You vote for inclusion but not of fringe groups? Does that even make sense? I guess I am arrogant, I am consistent and I don't claim to be inclusive while wanting to exclude both 200 marchers and their message. So... Peter and you make excellent "allies" of inconsistent illogical babble that borders on free association thinking.

Tam ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 1:14 PM

@Tam

are you really Tam? you sound a lot like another person who uses "illogical" to take anyone down you don't agree with and please take greg's advice that what you really are.

Peter from ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 1:33 PM

Edmonton Invite QuAIA to Pride in Edmonton....Vancouver to do same in coming days......At least some Pride Citys have some ball.....Shame on Toronto....Canada largest Gay City shame shame shame

DJ ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 2:27 PM

Peter, If you are asking if I am Rich, I am not. I am a lesbian and I am not sure that Rich is a lesbian because I don't know Rich. Just because more than one person can determine that you make no sense doesn't mean they are the same person. You see what I mean with lack of logic here? I read how you continued to ask the same damn question even though it was answered dozens of times and continued to say no one was answering you but would not address their answers. That is illogical. You made so many reasoning mistakes that it led to a number of people mentioning it. Then you attempted to sound better because just ranting incomprehensively wasn't working and the responses clearly had an effect on you. So, I think there is enough evidence and proof of your lack of ability (which would make you say things like you have a masters in history to compensate) and lack of logic. If I am willing to go find out what the Spanish press had to say (and it wasn't easy, because I had to figure out how to say Pride Parade in Spanish), obviously, I have just about read all comments since this broke out and so if I say you are illogical, it is because I agree, seeing the evidence, which is what you write, that you are. To try to pass all mayoral candidates as somehow proof of the righteousness of Pride's decision is enough proof, but I could compile a list of things you haven't thought about carefully due to either time or lack of ability.

Tam ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 2:57 PM

People should read and digest Sandilands' letter. Pride didn't prohibit QuAIA because of a bias by the Pride board against them. Pride's Board tried to compromise with them, but the self-absorbed QuAIA armchair revolutionaries were unwilling to. $300,000 in sponsorships is what QuAIA has cost Pride already. Again and again, they prove they care nothing about the community and only aboput themselves. They make convoluted excuses to the contrary, but it doesn't take much to see that QuAIA is comprised of self-centred, bigoted hypocrites pretending to care about free speech and human rights, neither of which they have made any contribution towards with their vilification of the only Gay-positive country in the middle east and their alienation of the majority of the community here in Toronto.

Noodles ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 2:56 PM

dividing the community? Ironically it's done the opposite. Anyone who was at the town hall meeting would have seen and felt the tremendous energy that there is in this community. It may have caused a few people who are not political to worry that their parties and squirt guns were threatened. They are not. They will still get their straight buff boys in green speedos throwing rainbow crap from flatbed trucks and the party will continue. A few people who are afraid of the state of Israel being criticized. But the growing number of people that are standing up for free speech and demanding that Pride recognize its history and principals is growing. I don't think this is a sad time at all. This is a celebration of Freedom of Speech and the spirit that created what everyone who lives in Toronto could consider a very privileged place to be queer. At the end of Pride, everyone will still have their party hangovers, Pro-Israeli Policy folk will still call everything that doesn't make Israel look like paradise antisemitic and the corporations will be figuring out how many cars got sold or bank accounts opened because of Pride. But there will be a group of people that saw how Freedom of Speech is something that isn't as much a guarantee or something we assume is part of being gay. Pride has energized a group of Queers, a very diverse group of Queers, to come together and work for something very important....squabble all you want, but these last weeks have been historic ones.

roy ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 2:41 PM

Well hello again Greg. Forgive and forget? No. I have done neither and I don't think anything I've said in the last 30 years indicates that I have. What has happened is that the current police force and the bathhouse industry have worked it out and we did so long before the Supreme Court decided that what we and our heterosexual counterparts do in our clubs is our own business. When officers are called to Excess they are respectful and friendly and that's what they get back from us in return. I have not forgiven the people who organized the bath raids, smashed our property, bankrupted me and drove a number of my customers to suicide. I was about your age when that happened. I have never forgiven those specific people and I never will. I don't have a blanket hatred for any group. I favour a sniper's rifle over a blunderbuss. More to the point, I will never, ever forget. So much for that. As to all the resentment, I have been wading through a pack of propaganda and outright lies from Pride Toronto and it is enough to turn my stomach. I resent that in the extreme. You are a young queer man with, as you point out, your own battle to fight. I am not telling you you shouldn't nor am I suggesting you don't have the right to your opinion. You strike me as bright so I am going to suggest you get on over to Glad Day and buy a book by Tom Warner, one of the panelists who I would have shared a stage with on Canada Day, entitled "Never Going Back" which is a wonderful history of this community's struggle and a must read for any queer with a battle to fight. As to your remark that my resentment is a nasty quality, without that nasty quality the City of Toronto would have succeeded in shutting down our industry altogether in 1989 if I had not had enough resentment to sue them into the ground, successfully. Unless you are well read on my personal history please show me the respect that my willingness to fight for and pay for that battle, myself and the late Jerry Levy, so that all other bathhouses could operate in this city, deserves and remember that I have not called you any nasty names nor have I suggested that your motivations are not valid. My motivations have little to do with the QuAIA. I believe the middle east problem will end the world because there is no goodwill on either side. My motivation is simple. To embrace the principal of free speech I must always be prepared to defend it. If I don't then when it comes time for me to speak freely I have no right to complain when I am herded into the free speech area. Free speech is necessary for all because without it we do not have a democracy. Free speech is what saved this community and we, as a community, and that includes you Greg, are obligated to defend it. When a committee which supposedly represents our community censors two words which are not classified as hate speech I resent it and will speak out. This touches on my principals which came at a cost I dearly hope you will never have to bear. I do understand your anger Greg and, since you asked, I've explained mine. If you have any other questions, feel free.

Peter Bochove ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 2:58 PM

@Noodle there has not been one dollar lost in sponsor to Pride Toronto in fact .....and the only reason this all start was by the Jewish Community and Gladstone who wish to see gays burn in hell as it is...and by a few in City Hall and those leaving City Hall ..(Kyle Rae) and a guy who to date only has a 4% vote for Major....so have some facts sweetie....and as for Israel stand on gay rights they just Started have a FEW not many rights and that was brought forth by Gays around the world that have push for change......

Sandilands over step her bounds as a member for Pride...she did not have the support of the Community and ran scared with her tail between her legs....

DJ ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 3:32 PM

The issue here is not about free speech and freedom of expression. It is about hate speech, thinly disguised. Tracy and PT are under tremendous stress to make Pride happen and not bankrupt the entire organization while trying to defend their position to the masses who do not see the bigger picture. She tried to explain PT's side in that letter - that this is not about free speech. QuAIA's name is what got them into this mess - and their name has nothing to do with their cause. They are NOT about queer rights, they hardly know what apartheid means. Ask any of them to state their mandate (without shouting at you), as I have several times - and they can not do so in a consistent, calm, intelligent way. They are trying their best to be vague enough and hide what they really believe in order to hide behind the veil of free speech. What I can not understand is why they refuse to remove the word "apartheid" from their name when it ostracizes so many people and says nothing about what they're really about. If I was to throw the word "Halocaust" into my group name, I'd be damn sure I understood all of the implications of using such a word. I am one of those people who feels ostracized by their name - and maybe WE are the 1%? But whatever percentage we are - we are damn scared to speak up due to comments like those above. Based on this precedent - I would not be surprised if other groups - God Hates Fags, Queers for the Tamil Tigers and any other who wants to drop a queer-related word into their group name to spread their hate - now wants to be in the parade. Sandilands has far more support than many of you here realize. Her support is mostly from people who realize the complexity of this situation and that this issue is not about free speech. What's that quote about questioning things when you find yourself on the side of the majority....? One thing I do know - when QuAIA marches in the Parade (because they will) and gets their message out there (if they don't change/PC it before then) - their free speech supporters (the vast majority) will likely dwindle.

KLM ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 4:12 PM

I know I spelled Holocaust incorrectly above. I apologize.

KLM ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 4:13 PM

@KLM the Holocaust happen get over it stop shoving that crap down people ....ever fucking time someone or something is said about the JEWS you cry Holocaust....get the fuck over it move one....your the only people live in the fucking pass....

if you wish to got that route what about muslim cleansing what about the ones kill in Rwanda or Congo.....


Stop this bleeding heart crap....

And FYI you will see sign you dumb ass of God Hates Fags at Pride where the hell have you been...

DJ ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 7:22 PM

Let us always return to the basic facts. The two primary requirements for participation in Pride are to be:

(1.) part or supportive of the LGBT community; and,
(2.) law-abiding.

Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) meets both of these requirements.

Singling out one group that meets the requirements and banning its lawful political speech is censorship.

Rick ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 8:08 PM

Hey DJ you're really not discreet about your anti-semitism eh? It's disgusting. I don't suspect any race or culture that survives a massive genocide will just "get the fuck over it and move on". But for some reason you seem to think the jews should have to accept that line of bullshit. Why don't you tell your friends at QuAIA to get the fuck over it and moved on? They got un-invited from Pride because they would stink it up, plan and simple. Get the fuck over it!!

Ryan ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:25 PM

@Ryan if you think this disagreement is just over QuAIA your wrong this is something that has been going on at PT for a long long long time....QuAIA was just the last straw...and as for your anti-semitism remark you could not be farther from the Truth...I have many friend that lived through the holocaust and even they have said the the Jewish Community love to use it any time someone speaks bad about there community...so you can say what you want but I can say and say proudly that I have done more for human right then you have and I still do to this day....

DJ ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:01 PM

@ DJ

So we should get over the holocaust? So we should also get over the fact that Hitler and the Nazi's killed our brothers and sisters for being queer? talk about pink-washing.

Homosexuals and the Holocaust(http://frank.mtsu.edu/~baustin/homobg.html), (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM-r8PKxm5M,(http://www.pink-triangle.org/)

from the The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum on gays during the holocaust(www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/hsx/)(http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/landman.htm)

Yeah we should get over the Holocaust and of course I remember why we use the Pink Triangle as our symbol but then again DJ we should get over the holocaust.

Peter from ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:14 PM

@Peter Bochove.....Well well said your words are so true...

The one thing I have notice and it is sad...the today's gays youth do not know the fights and the work that was done in the pass....

Today in the Gay Community you can go to the bars...the bathhouses...hold hands in the street...kiss in the street....a lot do not know at what cost these things came to be they have no clue....

It was from people like you Peter Bochove and Jerry Levy and so many others when we were kicked, beaten, spat at,.....

So when our right to speak up no matter what it is on that is our right...as it is Greg right to have his view..Ryan to have his..Tam to have her's and so many other....This is what this disagreement is all about Please do not think that it is just the Question about QuAIA.....Pride Toronto must speak for the community and not for it sponsors....and when they fail to do so it is every gays right to let them know...and if you feel they are doing it right it is your right to let them know....this is what Freedom is about.....

DJ ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 10:22 PM

Mr. Peter Boschove: I will always fervently believe and respect in what you have accomplished and continue to accomplish for our community. However.

I do not know of, nor do I wish to, look to the past for what we as a community can accomplish. I am a humble gay man that can only do his best to live up to the expectations of a society that we, due to you and others, have been born unto.

I can only do so much as thank you. What more can I really do? You have lived these struggles and have been through the angst that they have cause to you and those that you love.

However, the current argument is between Pride Toronto and the group that has knowingly manipulated the hardened activist groups within our community. They are being pressured and manipulated into backing a group that will destroy the very celebration of your struggle.

I will not, as someone who cares deeply about his community, and as someone who sees the sheep for its wool, roll over for the very few that feel as if they can manipulate the meat of our community.

Especially over their right to alienate those that have worked so hard to accept us for who we are. I Still Cry at almost every stage of Pride. And I do so on behalf of everyone that has made this as big and as important as it has become. I am not the only one. I cry at the PFLAG article on the last page of the Pride Guide because it reminds me of the GREATER community that NOW supports us.

greg ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 10:04 PM

Oh, and I'm sorry. This country again leads the world in this respect....

The Bill of Rights in the US and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects speech.

Canada now prohibits HATE SPEECH. The Ontario Human Rights Code has voted on, and currently will frown upon a democratically decided on vote: "ISREALI APARTHEID" is HATE SPEECH.

And Pride did not lose 300,000 from sponsors... they have lost over a million. The Canadian conservative, minority led government, has pulled. That is 700,000. A MILLION LOST FOR GAY PRIDE FOR ONE GROUP. Disgusting

greg ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 10:22 PM

Please sir, lobby the government all you want. The executive director in all of her patience and persistence has summed up the modus opporendi of this group pretty well.

They do not represent me, and that may be why xtra is trying to recycle old stories to banish this thread.

greg ca


Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:25 PM

@ Peter think what you want my Jewish Aunt and Uncle know me .... my friends that come over for dinner and are branded with tattoo number are their arms know me....and they too have seen how the Jewish Community use it as a way to defend their actions every time some group speaks up against something that is done to them..

DJ ca


Friday, June 11, 2010 1:37 AM

I know this a bit off, but I am over the pink triangle... and what happened to gays in WWII. Hitler is gone, the nazis are gone, gay people continued to be oppressed after that by people who are presently alive. They continue to be murdered in some parts and no long ago people waited to throw eggs at us leaving clubs. So, those things bother me more. I don't see this happening again in my life time or my children's lifetime. More importantly, there is racism towards other people who are now being oppressed. I think it is terrible what happened and it shouldn't happen to anyone, gay, black, jewish or muslim. Slavery seems also one of those terrible things were people are always being asked to forget and those people continue to face discrimination every day in north america. genocide is part of the history of humanity but I don't see why we should be stuck in the past. we can only work for the world to be a better place now for everyone regardless of their background. to me, it is the palestinians who need to be liberated today, which is what matters now.

sean ca


Friday, June 11, 2010 1:56 AM

greg, I hear you and how liberated you feel because you can take your friends to see gay porn or because you can go into a bath house and I think you don't represent my community. To me, you are a fringe group. I would find it a complete lack of manners if a gay friend or a straight friend (male or female) took me to a place and they were showing porn. I have gone to lesbian places like that and explored, not for me, and even a lesbian who takes me to a bar without telling me that it is going to be full of porn, I'd find offensive. I'd think their parents never taught them any manners. I don't think of myself as a prude, but those kinds of things I want to do on my own terms. It is privacy for me. So to me, you sound like part of a fringe group that I can't relate to. You certainly don't represent my values or my friend's values. What makes you feel liberated appears to me childish and inappropriate. Similarly, full nudity in the middle of the city doesn't represent me. I always wonder what those people are thinking. They aren't just being naked, they are being naked to be seen, which to me implies that they are forcefully engaging us in their nakedness. Same goes for S&M, I like it as a story but I think it is private so public displays of it engage me in a way that to me goes beyond a sexual orientation as it means, in some cases, that I am being made part of an S&M scene without my consent. Like you in a bath house or bringing your friends to a bar, they probably feel liberated. That seems such a silly way of feeling liberated Gregg. To me, you and them all are fringe groups, but I go to Pride and the Dyke March and I accept that you and them have as much right to be there as I do. The kind of person that you are doesn't represent gay to me. One could be perfectly gay without acting that way. You seem to think that you are the epitomy of gay and you aren't.

Natalie ca


Friday, June 11, 2010 4:46 PM

Right on Natalie.

GaySolomon ca


Saturday, June 12, 2010 6:35 PM

Natalie. I don't know what the hell your problem is, but my comments were made in the context of a larger point. I wouldn't show my grandmother porn or take her to a bath house. Is that what you were implying? And surely, YOU wouldn't be my friend because you, based on your comments, are someone that I wouldn't associate with anyway.

My friends just happen to be the kinds of people that are accepting of everything about what makes me gay. That includes different kinds of porn and bath houses. My point about this was a very personal one that only exposes your veiled homophobia publicly. Go fuck yourself.

greg ca


Saturday, June 12, 2010 8:55 PM

"Go fuck yourself."

@ greg:

Nice. The woman just made a point, stated her feelings just like you (and others) did umpteen times here, and YOU end yours with telling her THAT?? Was that necessary? Did she tell YOU to "Go fuck yourself"? Funny thing was, as I was read your first paragraph, I KNEW you would end up saying something like that. I'm sure you'll say it to me now too, right?

pmb ca



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