Friday, May 21, 2010 6:39 PM

SHAME! Pride Toronto is proving to the community that queer people and their politics matter less to Pride than corporate sponsorships! This is a sad day for Toronto's Queer community. The death of the political movement? ~Morgan

Morgan Page

Friday, May 21, 2010 8:20 PM

ban the whole group. not just their name.

bunch of queers using the pride stage to promote hate against israel. "israel apartheid" already has its own week. so fuck off and march there. leave me alone to celebrate my sexuality...

Meg

Friday, May 21, 2010 8:24 PM

And there, in just two comments, is everything that is wrong and stupid with this decision. It will satisfy no one (especially not Mammoliti, Gladstone and Kyle Rae) and anger and irritate everyone. Yet another clueless decision from the Pride board.

David D.

Friday, May 21, 2010 8:10 PM

In a region well known for its homophobia, where GLBTQ people suffer institutionalized discrimination, and risk murder at the hands of their families and governments, it's odd that the only statement regarding the middle east that we as a community could put together is one unfairly attacking the only country where gay rights are actually respected. QuAIA is an embarrassment to the community and I for one applaud this decision.

Daniel

Friday, May 21, 2010 8:24 PM

How about Israel killed 1400 people in Gaza, over 1000 people in lebanon? When does it stop? How about Israeli settlers beat families?¨"Israeli settlers are slowly cleaning palestinians out of historical palestine, because they are palestinian" How about "Israeli settlers burn mosques left right and centre" How about Israel, get your ass back to your own land. How about Israel doesn´t seem to want peace? How about, Israel lies to you, it hires professional marketing firms to tell you that they are "just like you", and no, we are not like Israel!

Tam

Friday, May 21, 2010 8:30 PM

I am very disappointed with Pride Toronto plans....I will boycott all things to do with Gay Pride now and will have my friends do the same.....Gay Pride was built to make a different in the world and standing up to the wrong in the world and in our community....U will see no money or help from me any more you have sold out and that is the saddest thing you could of done....I have taken great pride in being gay and seeing the changes that have come in the community...your action have moved gay rights back to the dark ages with move...sad sad sad sad day in Toronto

DJ

Friday, May 21, 2010 8:15 PM

How about, Israel keeps children in prison without charges, just because they are palestinians. How about, when a palestinian boy get shot they can´t find the culprit, when a Jewish terrorist serial killer of paletinians finally gets caught because he happened to kill jewish leftists, he is "unfit to stand trial". I say, let´s go with the facts! Some really nice facts will be even better than a nice catch phrase like: "Israel says it wants peace, it doesn´t" "Israel says it is a democracy, it is not!" I say QaIA chose one cool phrase a year and have the nice racist pro-Israel folk put this circus up every year!

Tam

Friday, May 21, 2010 8:32 PM

Daniel: Correction. I think you mean "the only country where gay rights are actually respected -- unless you're a Palestinan behind Israel's apartheid wall."

QuAIA is a group of LGBT people that campaigns for human rights in Israel/Palestine and that engages in entirely lawful political speech. Banning of QuAIA -- or its name -- is censorship, plain and simple.

What a sad day for the queer community. Shame on Pride Toronto.

Rick

Friday, May 21, 2010 9:34 PM

@ Tam Canada is doing the same Omar Khadr ring a bell to you....

DJ

Friday, May 21, 2010 9:46 PM

here are the name and numbers for Pride Toronto to let them know how you feel and that I hope that you will also boycott Pride since Pride Toronto has sold itself out to the Government...

Executive Director
Tracey Sandilands
416 927 7433 ext 222
Fundraising Director
Sponsorship & Grants
Ryan Lester
416 927 7433 ext 230
Acting Operations Director
Ben Freemam
416 927 7433 ext 245
Volunteer Program Manager
Emily Gibson
416 927 7433 ext 227

Arts & Entertainment Program
Manager
Mary Zondanos
416 927 7433 ext 233
Marketing & Communications
Manager
Michael Ain
416 927 7433 ext 226

Finance Manager
Ajay Joshi
416 927 7433 ext 264

Office Address

14 Dundonald Street
Toronto, Ontario M4Y 1K2
Tel: 416 927 7433
Fax: 416 927 7886
E-mail: office@pridetoronto.com
Email: Web Content Manager

Mailing Address

Pride Toronto
P.O. Box 371, Station F
Toronto, Ontario
CANADA
M4Y 2L8

DJ

Friday, May 21, 2010 11:04 PM

I have no doubt that QuAIA and their lot are pretty obnoxious. To me, however, that's not the point. It's absolutely ridiculous that Pride would capitulate to unrepentant homophobes like Mammoletti.

Pride should have stood up to their threats and intimidation. If we can't do that and protect our rights of free expression, we shouldn't be having a parade.

Rick

Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:36 AM

Personally, I don't believe Queer's Against Israeli Apartheid belong in the Pride parade. I think the group is doing their democratic service to society; however, the parade is supposed to be about gay rights and freedoms, and I don't feel included by this groups message (which has nothing to do with gay rights). How about Queer's for Israeli and Palestinian Guys Marrying Each Other? That's something I could cheer for-

John

Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:40 AM

Why is Kyle Rae making announcements for Pride? That is quite bizarre, and raises some legitimacy questions.

Curious

Saturday, May 22, 2010 3:06 AM

SHAME SHAME SHAME...The Pride Toronto Board has once again disappointed. A split decision? Why? The simple idea at the base of Prides yearly planning is to provide a platform for the queer expression of the gay community.

*** Did you fail to realize that no mater how you answered the questions raised you would fail. Why? Because you failed to understand the organisation you lead and the community you represent. A simple answer one Pride has used time and time again in the past " Pride does not invite or un-invite anyone to our event. This is about queer expression and is historically rooted in protest."

******DO NOT GET BLINDED by this issue being solely about QIAA and Israel. This goes much deeper, This was a Queer Group voicing an opinion...50+ marchers in a parade that hosts 1000s. One small voice that has forced the Board to side on the comfort of sponsors and funders. PRIDE HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT SPONSORS OR WHAT POLITICIANS THINK.... IT IS ABOUT COMMUNITY, OUR COMMUNITY.

** This decision does little more then bow to the need for money, sponsors and funding. WHICH I FULLY UNDERSTAND, but you cannot let that need limit ANY voice in our community. Pride Toronto is a delicate balance. Yes we need sponsors and funding but YOU ned to set the limits for sponsors and funders, not the other way around. You are Not Luminato, you are the distinct and wonderfully diverse Pride Toronto.

*******The Board fails to realize that Pride is about each and every individual who attends. Think of the first time you came to Pride and the overwhelming sense if "I AM NOT ALONE!"....I come from small town where-ever. "I stood beside, A dyke, a drag Queen, a leather DAddy, A twink, A TNT dude...and I felt like I belonged."

****PrideToronto is an oasis, a place where people from Parkdale, North Bay, Jamaica, Argentina come, because in their day to day struggle to belong, Pride Toronto is the one place the could fully express who they are, a gathering place in the dessert when 1000's come to refresh.


********Pride is about each and every expression on the gay community.

****By bowing to pressure to censor one group the Pride Board has neutered its effectiveness in BELONGING and what is the theme for this year..YOU BELONG.


****SHAME SHAME SHAME....

MARK SMITH former Board Member of Pride Toronto

Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:44 AM

So there are a couple of facts missing. At one point this week QuAIA suppoters were having an influence on the board. Jim Cullen, co chair, resigned. The Pride board then invited QuAIA to meet with the board. Elle Flanders and others met with the board. All expected the issue to be settled. But then ED Tracey Sandilands rallied the mostly straight staff of Pride Toronto to email the board begging the board not to threaten their jobs. That influenced the fence sitter who then voted to ban QuAIA. During the discussions with QuAIA there was a discussion of the rejection of Pride Toronto's application to the Canada Council and criticism of QuAIA marching included in the rejection envelope. Richard Fung who was present for QuAIA has already discovered there was no criticism in the rejection package. So it looks like Tracey Sandilands was lying to the board. Members of the Pride Toronto board who want to overturn this decision need the support of the community. The vote is public. Helen, Francisco and Gaya supported the community by refusing censorship they need our support. Community Meeting at the 519 to be schedued this week.

Community Response

Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:31 AM

Notnhing should be "banned" unless it is illegal or hate-mongering to the point of illegality & then the cops/authoriites can step in adn they can be charged. They tried to ban nudists from marching one year. some marched in the nude anyway. The Pride people tried to get cops to arrest them. But they wouldn't. One was arrested when he went nude into a licensed premises (but not during the parade where the nudist marched the whole route). Police eventually lost the case and no longer arrest nudists or any one else on Pride day (except the odd drunken violent troublemaker). Pride T should not be in the censorhip business. I guess a group called "Queera Against Certain Iaraeli Policies" can march. Or not...Can gay queers against Malawi justice march?

Pride Toronto has become too big, too governmentalized. too corporatized. It is no longer the voice of the street but of the boardrooms. Of the politically correct mainstream society it represents. Let's go back to "Gay Days" era of anything goes (legal of course).

james Dubro

Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:28 AM

BTW In the old days no signs or groups were vetted by anyone--and it always worked out well. Ask Kyle Rae. Or Tim McKaskill. Or Ken Popert. Or Brent Hawkes. It was fun--even exuberant-, manageable, very political , non-commercial and all over the map politically wihtout any serious problems

james Dubro

Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:14 AM

DJ, I want Omar Khadar back too... your point? And that is one case. No that it is ok, but with Israel it is ongoing.

Tam

Saturday, May 22, 2010 9:04 AM

"But then ED Tracey Sandilands rallied the mostly STRAIGHT staff of Pride Toronto..."

tim

Saturday, May 22, 2010 10:24 AM

I am quite tired of hearing that Israel is the only country that protect and promote queer politics in the Middle-East.

People seem to forget that there was a shooting in Tel Aviv August last year - a good indication of how tolerant people there are...

crustypockets

Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:30 AM

Kyle Rae did mention that he supported prohibiting groups that don't opposed homophobia or support gay-rights. QuAIA fits his description in that the "gay" tag has been added to his group which labels Israel as an apartheid state.

Last year, supporters of Hillel marched in the parade. Were they marching for gays in Israel or just Israel. The former has a gay focus; the later doesn't. I saw a photo on the Hillel website of parade. There were lots of Israeli flags, a few Canadian and rainbow flags. It seems that this contingent was supporting Israel--not gays in Israels. Perhaps this gayless group should be banned from the parade.

I do appreciate the commenter who mentioned that Pride Week is turning from a LGBT event to a City of Toronto tourism event.

SD

Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:41 AM

I am a old Queen and I have fought for many rights with others that gays today would not even come close to understanding....cops could come into bars and arrest you...you could get beaten up with cops standing watching...you could loose your business license to do business....you could be put in jail...and so on and so on....Gay Pride was founded to stand up to the Government and not to just be good boys and girls...Gay Pride has lost this... it is time to get those at Gay Pride out....Gay Pride does not mean selling out to the Government....SHAME SHAME SHAME.....PRIDE WILL NOT SEE ONE DOLLAR FROM ME THIS YEAR I WILL BE BOYCOTTING IT........

DJ

Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:05 AM

I understand why Kulanu would march, what is Hillel doing in our march?

Tam

Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:08 AM

@TAM.....yes Israel it is ongoing so is Afghanistan...and Korea and so many other places.....Our Government along with the USA sells it soul to the devil and sit back and wonder why things go wrong....Pride has no business taking up Government wishes.....all Pride was worry about was the all mighty DOLLAR....I did not take years of shit from straight people to tell me what is good and what is wrong....Pride will never see a dollar from me every again nor from my business.....

DJ

Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:57 AM

Remember these ass hole come September.....I know I will....ALSO JOIN IN THE BOYCOTT OF PRIDE 2010....DO NOT SUPPORT PRIDE 2010....save your money go to Pride Montreal or Pride Vancouver....Toronto Pride is just for sell outs.......

DJ

Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:38 PM

DJ, I think I agree with you. I think before you boycott pride you should just see what happens next... QaIA will march under some banner, there will be placards, perhaps not with the word apartheid there... perhaps yes as they are going to have a community meeting and they won´t take this lying down. I think it is great that you are boycotting... I feel like boycotting... I also feel like never speaking to a couple of board members I see around through contact with other people... I am trying to understand them, but one in particular, and I won´t mention any names, seems to be uncapable of complex thinking... and I am sure that this had something to do with the outcome... but still, the pro-Israel lobby has been pushing and blackmailing and distorting the truth, and a bunch of idiots who have always hated gays have come to help them at city hall and Kyle Rae once again has acted contrary to our community... and the board, who are probably just a bunch of well meaning, volunteers, who have been put in a terrible situation, choose immediate respite than a long battle that could crush the organization they have been entrusted with. Sandilands should be fired, the board should change their decision, we should make sure that the board is not, next time, filled with the pro-Israel activist who couldn´t care less about us. A lot can happen in one month and QaIA might show up with placards that will make the pro-Israel group wish they hadn´t messed with them. All they have to do is put up some facts..

Tam

Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:29 PM

"Pride has voted to ban the use of 'Queers Against Israeli Apartheid'"

From South Park:

"One shall not use 'n*gger' if it is followed by 'guy.'"

SD

Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:39 PM

If QuAIA uses the gay label, then Kulanu (Hillel) is a "Gaytag" group as it marches in support of Israel--not in support of gays in Israel. As I mentioned earlier, its contingent in last year's parade had lots of Israeli flags but very few rainbow flags.

SD

Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:04 PM

Yes, Tam, facts are precisely what the Israel Lobby fears -- which explains their steady flow of propaganda and censorship efforts.

Israel is an apartheid state -- and here's why:
http://tinyurl.com/2cw2nan

Rick

Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:58 PM

Correction:

Wrong link.

Here it is:
http://tinyurl.com/37wn5q8

Rick

Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:31 PM

No one in this country has the right to never be offended. That is not a right. Hate speech is speech that says "we ought to harm group X". Hate speech is a crime. Speech criticizing another's actions, while may be seen offensive, is not only legal, but essential for a democratic country.

rich

Saturday, May 22, 2010 1:54 PM

So I think Pride should ban both sides, interesting how a Middle Eastern War is being imported into the community and how both sides are blaming each other for this mess, again both sides has other times were they can be protesting such as the Anti Israel people do have a week to do this and the Pro Israel can protest somewhere else too and also I find this funny how either side could not even answer this Question such as How does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada?

Very interesting how this does go unanswered any side can answer this but any answer seems to be propaganda from both sides.

@ Tam
Hamas or the Palestinian National Authority and all the other Anti Israel Groups including Hezbollah and Iran never like us Queers either they kill us for who we are and don't care about Gay Rights and are also a bunch of idiots since either side don't really care about Gay Rights at all , but just their political agendas and the Human suffering cash cow either it be the Pro or Anti Israel Side.

Peter

Saturday, May 22, 2010 1:00 PM

I usually go by Rich on the Xtra site but since there's another rich I'll now go by Rich R to avoid confusion even though rich said pretty much what I was going to. Anyways I'm not surprised but disgusted by this, when Pride starts censoring the LGBT community in Toronto it has lost all legitimacy in my opinion. Something has to be done, either boycott or something else, perhaps it is time for an alternate march/demonstration against Pride Inc. perhaps those who do go to Pride this year should be wearing a t-shirt or pin or something supporting free speech for QuAIA or something criticizing the censorship. The entire Pride Inc. board needs to be turfed out and replaced by one responsive to the community and its values especially that of free speech. We have had to fight against the censorship of the bigots for so long now that now having Pride Inc censor our own people is such a betrayal of our community that something must be done. Initially I bought into the propaganda that there was a hate group marching during last years Pride march, when I discovered the truth I felt manipulated and pissed off. I sympathized with Pride Inc for having such a difficult issue thrust upon them but if they aren't ready to deal with such difficult circumstances in way that honours our community then they have no business running Pride.

Rich R

Saturday, May 22, 2010 1:15 PM

The problem seems to be that people are claiming this is a censorship issue, and are not really looking at the group in question. Which, sadly, is typical of the left (which is sad, since I was once very active politically on that side of the spectrum until I got tired of the endless knee-jerk reactions to all issues).

If a similar group marched in the parade, under the flag of Israelis Against Palestine, suddenly all these people crying foul would be celebrating Pride Toronto's decision. You know it's true. (I could have made the argument, which would have been a little flip, that if you insist ALL groups be permitted, then those morons in the Str8 pride movement, or NAMBLA, or some equally repugnant group to march if they saw fit. There are limits,people! So stop with this red herring of free speech because you don't really mean it!)

A hate group - which QuAIA very much is - is not allowed to carry hateful signs. They are also not permitted to use a QUEER event to promote a non-Queer agenda. Boo hoo.

Kieren

Saturday, May 22, 2010 3:55 PM

Maybe we should start a group called Queers Against Gay Pride Apartheid.

Val

Saturday, May 22, 2010 3:37 PM

Kieren:

Enough with the defamatory propaganda. (Indeed, defamation is a reasonable limit on free speech.) There is not ONE shred of evidence that QuAIA is a "hate" group. And, if there was any such evidence, then I would be first to call the police -- in accordance with their definitions and recommendations as appearing on their website: http://tinyurl.com/27snw22

Many participants/contingents in the Pride parade do not have a "queer agenda." That is not even a requirement for participation. QuAIA does have a queer agenda: It is campaigning for equality rights for all LGBT people in Israel/Palestine -- not just for those on the "right" side of Israel's apartheid wall.

Prohibiting lawful political speech is censorship. The respected Canadian Civil Liberties Association takes a similar position on this very issue; see: http://ccla.org/?p=5098

The only "red herring" is your posting. So, just address the arguments instead of deploying a series of sand-in-the-eyes distracting arguments. Israel is an apartheid state: agree or disagree? Apartheid makes social conditions especially bad for LGBT people: agree or disagree? QuAIA is a group of LGBT people and, therefore, a part of our community: agree or disagree? Not one shred of evidence exists to support the claim that QuAIA is a "hate" group: either present the evidence, or concede this fact.

This is not a "left" vs. "right" issue. It is a power struggle -- but the facts are very, very clear. QuAIA is an LGBT group that engages in lawful political speech; the main criteria for participation in Pride are that a party is either part or supportive of the LGBT community, and that the party is law-abiding. Therefore, there is absolutely no reasonable or legal reason for excluding QuAIA or prohibiting the use of the words "Israeli apartheid."

Even the Deputy Prime Minister and Defense Minister of Israel, Ehud Barak, envisions "apartheid" (his word) in Israel. See: http://tinyurl.com/yg2p2s7

If he can say it, then why can't we? Canada is democracy. "Boo hoo."

Rick

Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:50 PM

If the LGBT community can't care about apartheid in Israel and the occupied territories, why should people care about the LGBT community?

Ban groups from Pride Week that support the Israeli apartheid hate state.

SD

Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:30 PM

Rick:

Perhaps you should take a closer look at what censorship is and try (please, just make the attempt) to use it correctly.

"Prohibiting lawful political speech is censorship." It is ... but they are not being prohibited from speaking out. Simply not being allowed to march in the parade doesn't amount to shutting them up. They can create their own march. They can publish their views on websites, pamphlets. They can share their ideas with news organizations, over the radio, on the street. Not every letter to the editor gets printed, not every journal gives every single person a voice; is that censorship? It would be nice if you would get your facts straight instead of deliberately muddying the waters.

Second, it is nice that you totally skip the real argument here. You claim that this is an issue of apartheid and really nothing more. Based upon the evidence, both sides in this debate (Israeli and Palestinian) have a lot to answer for. Does Israel behave badly? Oh my god yes indeed. There have been numerous despicable actions from that government. I am by no means an apologist for that side (as you seem to be for the Palestinians). Apartheid? Even the quote you reference has one individual saying he sees it coming (ie: it's not there yet). Many Ministers in our government say things - it doesn't necessarily reflect the reality that is Canada.

Sand in the eyes? Your whole argument is just that.

You fail to answer whether all groups should be permitted into the parade. ALL groups. No picking. No choosing. No deliberation. You agree? Even non gay/non pride groups? KKK? Nambla? Anti-choice Roman Catholics, who openly oppose gay marriage? An isreali anti-palestine group? Seriously, no lines? Then what is the point of calling it 'GAY PRIDE'?

You also say, as I reference above, that their freedom of speech is hampered. How? Have they been put under a publication ban? Are they being jailed? Nope.

Kieren

Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:06 PM

@ Rick: are you a spokesperson for the group?
What I find troublesome is that you're position seems to overlook Palestine's treatment of gay? Israel has done some bad things. Palestine is no angel in any of this. I'd love to see a group stand up against the actions of both sides, fighting for the betterment of all citizens in the area, on both sides. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3211772.stm

DillonS

Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:03 PM

Make no mistake. The Pride Committee is selling out to Stephen Harper.

The Pride Committee will do the bidding of the Christian fundamentalists. The Pride Committee will do the bidding of right-wing city councillors. As long as Pride keeps getting the handouts.

Sandy

Saturday, May 22, 2010 4:12 PM

It has never been the role of the Pride committee to decide for me, you, or anyone else in the queer community which issues we care about are 'proper' and 'allowable' to raise at Pride and which are not. This is the first. And it's not a principled position, about human rights, there is no basis to say that QAIA has violated any policy of Pride or the City. This is about raw politics, about fear, about pandering to funders, about the lack of courage to do what is right no matter what names are hurled or threats are levelled. It breaks my heart that this is causing an even greater distance between the celebration of Pride in Toronto and the front line activists in the queer community who cannot stand for this censorship and will not support it.

Robin

Saturday, May 22, 2010 5:30 PM

I think the Pride Committee got it right.

FancyThat

Saturday, May 22, 2010 5:33 PM

Kieren:

You do not argue clearly or logically.

Here's the argument in its simplest form, logically ordered just for you:

I

The only requirements for participation in the Pride parade are:
- either a part or supportive of the LGBT community
- law-abiding

II

QuAIA is a group of law-abiding LGBT people.

III

Therefore, QuAIA meets the requirements and should be permitted to participate in the parade.

Regarding your other points:

(1.) Definition of "censoring": "to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable". Compare this definition with Pride Toronto's actions as reported in the news: PT is prohibiting particular lawful words. Censorship, plain and simple.

(2.) Applying one set of rules to QuAIA and another set to everyone else -- in order to suppress speech from QuAIA that is deemed objectionable -- is censorship, whether in the form of prohibiting particular words or banning the group.

(3.) For more on apartheid in Israel, see "Israel is an apartheid state (and here's why)" at: http://tinyurl.com/37wn5q8 -- and note that all sources on that web page are cited. If UN appointees, Desmond Tutu, and the Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa can call Israel an "apartheid" state, among countless others, then I think the world should start giving very serious consideration to the claim. And it is -- thankfully.

Rick

Saturday, May 22, 2010 5:12 PM

Rick,

Again, you are purposefully ignoring my questions. Interesting, as they would instantly make your argument moot.

I think my arguments are both logical and clear. They just don't support what you have to say. And trying to sound high and mighty doesn't further your argument either.

I will ask one final time: are all groups welcome (ALL GROUPS, no ifs ands or buts)? Or only those you support? Where is the line? Please, oh wise Rick, pray inform those of us you deem ignorant.

Kieren

Saturday, May 22, 2010 6:16 PM

?? i too would like rick to answer the one question he is avoiding: does this mean pride should be a free for all, without any limits to who can show up, with any sign they like, and march? ??

Tracy

Saturday, May 22, 2010 6:21 PM

Whether or not you support QuAIA the fact remains that the Pride committee has been strong-armed into this decision by threats to withdraw their funding by known homophobe Giorgio Mammoliti. That alone should be enough to ring alarm bells.

Val

Saturday, May 22, 2010 6:24 PM

Rick, although I agree that Israel is not some innocent party - and way too often gets the benefit of the doubt from much of the Western world when it does some very questionable things - I am troubled by your singe-mindedness. Few things are as black and white as some people seem to think. I checked out the website you keep posting, which is a list of links created by you and which support your argument. That's fine, but one can never forget the importance of historiography [the actual study of the source from which history is established]. Sources have bias. Sources can be third or fourth level sources. It is important to remember that just because something is written in support of your position, that you take the time to understand exactly where it is coming from. Not all sources are created equal. Some of the sources you provide are great for helping people understand the issue. Some are very questionable.

If asked a question, why not answer it thoughtfully? When you don't, it does make it look as if you are relying on a partially formed argument upon which to take a stand. Engage in the topic and we all benefit from the discussion.

I don't agree with Kieren in this case as I think that all Queer groups should have their voices heard - from the Raliens (sp) to PFLAG to the group in question here. There are those who would deny TNT, drag queens and leather men a place for fear people get the wrong idea about our community. Corporate floats, others cry, should be denied because they are just advertisements and have nothing important to add to the actual event. I say celebrate the diversity.

Doug W

Saturday, May 22, 2010 6:37 PM

Val has a very important point. Perhaps Pride - and this is painful for me to even suggest - should just not happen this year in protest of Giorgio Mammoliti's handling of this issue [which, I think, has more to do with being anti-gay than his opinion on QuAIA]. See how Toronto feels when all those Pride dollars disappear.

Doug W

Saturday, May 22, 2010 6:50 PM

Shame on PRIDE TORONTO for giving in to economics and a vocal Pro-Israeli lobby. My queer identity is stable enough to embrace a range of behaviours and ideas that I would not necessarily avow but support their expression in encouraging our "fringe" identity to be celebrated. Down with censorship!

Shane

Saturday, May 22, 2010 7:18 PM

For Sale Gay Pride in Toronto.....Toronto Pride has put itself up for sale to the Government....I remember the first day I walked in the Parade in Toronto....we stood together for freedom and rights for all Gays in Toronto and around the world...In years to come we welcome Toronto Police...the Army and the Navy and the Fire Department....Groups that we were told would never accept us...now Gay Pride as sold out to homophone Giorgio Mammoliti, Kyle Rae and all the other that supported this band...I know all the gay brothers and sisters who have send gone on are Rolling over in their graves....Pride was set up not to just obey .... we set this up to make a difference.....so to this I must say.....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FOR SALE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
.................GAY PRIDE TORONTO...................
.......IS FOR SALE ANY ONE CAN BUY THEIR VOTES.......

SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME

DJ

Saturday, May 22, 2010 9:10 PM

Members of the LGBT community can hold an alternative Queerfest on the Toronto Islands if they want to avoid the Disneyfication/Disneyvacation of Pride Week Toronto.

SD

Saturday, May 22, 2010 10:39 PM

SHAME SHAME SHAME on QuAIA for using the word: Israeli Apartheid, which it defines a hate language that are against the State of Israel, it has nothing to do with our LGBT rights.

Using the word: Queer Israeli Against Apartheid has attracted too much attention about the word itself on Apartheid. It has ignored Queer Palestine who denied for their rights in the society.

I challenge the QuAIA to use a different word that will allow them to march in the Parade and promote the awareness of human rights violation in Palestine who are LGBT.

Can the QuAIA uses a new name that respects the LGBT rights for Palestine and around the world and in Toronto! I propose to call: Queers Israeli in Solidarity with Palestine: Human Rights for all!

So that Apartheid word itself will not getting much media attention so that a new proposal will get much attention about Queer Palestine in the LGBT rights are violated.

Stupid QuAIA for destroying the Pride and dividing the LGBTTIQQ2SA communities.

John B

Saturday, May 22, 2010 10:14 PM

Doug, Sources are biased.... unfortunately, all the bias is pro-Israel. I am aware of the bias in sources and I have done my own painstaking research.. and I believe, Israel is an apartheid state. I have a right to believe that. I have a right to believe that. Ater all the research I have done, mainly from jewish and israeli sources, even from israel government sources, I also can honestly say that the pro-Israel group is constantly lying and manipulating evidence to defend Israe's actions. I hate saying it because I can't quite understand how a group of people can act like that. There is no morality there. If anything Israel does is right and justified, then what you have is a continuous deterioration of the morals of those who defend it. I have a right to my opinion and it is up to the citizens of this country to decide whehter what Israel is doing is apartheid or not. Not to the clearly biased Israel-lobby. Where do you think I get my information from? How dare you assume that those of us who have spent countless hours researching this haven't done a good job despite all the propaganda from the pro-Israel group. I myself, am a nice by product of that propaganda... everything they said was ilogical, irrelevant and racist, and I kept on hearing it.... I was being ask to side with Israel... I did my own research.

Tam

Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:03 PM

John B, Shame on Israel for having an apartheid state. Shame on Israel for what it did in Lebanon, for what it did in Gaza, for what it continues to do in Gaza. Shame on Israel for discriminating against its arab citizens. Shame on Israel for creating a prison out of Gaza. Shame on Israel for occupying land that isn't theirs. Shame on Israel for looking the other way when jewish people asault palestinians, kill them, steal from them. Shame on Israel for not having a constitution that declares equality among all regardless of religion. Shame on Israel for pretending it wants peace while it really doesn't because it interferes with their plans to take all land. Shame on Israel for choosing war instead of peace and sending their children to war rather than something more productive. Shame on Israel for lying to us over and over again. I supports queers against israeli apartheid. Specially the so many jewish ones that have to put up with members of their community who would throw bottles at them. I support them and all the other young and old jewish people who won't put up with Israel's propaganda, who won't check their morals at the door, who defend the human rights of paletinians.

Tam

Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:17 PM

Kieren, but you must admit that there are a ton of Israelis against palestine, all you have to do is look at the comments in Haaretz. These people don't want the palestinians to get anything... that isn't peace, it is simply bulldozing over other people... it is racist... and so that group would be racist... asking for equality, an end to apartheid, cannot, by definition, be racist. Now, if a group of Israeli jews marked saying, let's all live together as equal, as QaIA is asking, I would be against them being censored either. 1. clearly discriminatory; 2. looking for equality among the two parts and an end to the war.... frankly kiera... you don't think do you? I read you over and over again and you make no sense whatsoever. I think you might be banking on people getting confused with the idiocy you write... I think you chose the wrong forum for that.

Tam

Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:28 PM

Kiera, .. slowly, when Rick answered by giving you the requierements for being part of pride, he was answering your question. Either you are playing dumb, or you are... you pick...

Tam

Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:10 PM

Tam, I find you to be one of the problems on this site. Because what you do is fail to read fully what other posters have said. Reread my comment and you will see that I am not disagreeing with some of the statements about Israel, nor did I condemn the research made by Rick [and I never mentioned yours, nor the reasoning behind your position; I have also never argued that statements being made were erroneous]. I even acknowledge that many of the links Rick provided were good. I only cautioned him because some of the sources listed were questionable at best. Yes, because I studied history I am fascinated by sources, and took the time to look through those provided on Rick's site.

Also, calling someone dumb or an idiot because they disagree with you is childish. Shame on you for lowering the discussion to something we would find in a preschool or child's playground.

Doug W

Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:34 PM

@ TAM, it would appear you are the idiot. kieren's questions were not answered by rick. he has yet to say if he would allow anyone and everyone with an interest in marching. also you say all the sources are pro-israel, but douesn't rick's list prove you wrong? his list are all pro-palestine or outright anti-israel. better get your facts straight.

Thinking ... try it

Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:52 AM

@ Tracey - 30 proud years of free for all.
@ Rick the Pride Board was on side until your email campaign to City woke up the Right and irritated left councillors. Getting automamtically generated messages on your blackberry all day will do that. Thanks for nothing.

Community Response

Sunday, May 23, 2010 8:03 AM

John B wrote: [suggested name] "Queers Israeli in Solidarity with Palestine: Human Rights for all!"

I assume you meant "Queer Israelis in Solidarity with Palestine: Human Rights for all!" The problem with that is that most participants in Toronto are not Israeli; most are Canadian. Next, you are trying to divert attention away from Israel.

Why does QuAIA focus on Israel instead of countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Syria? I can't speak for the organization. I do think that people in the organization do so because Israel pretends to be a democracy for all. Yes, the other countries also pretend to be democracies, but without much success. Israel treats its own Arab Israeli citizens unfairly with less resources per capita going to Arab Israeli education than Jewish Israeli. It has created private roads throughout the West Bank that go to Jewish only settlements on land stolen from the Arabs. It has created an open air concentration camp called "Gaza." It has diverted water on the West Bank to go to Jewish settlements.

The West Bank and Gaza Arabs are like the blacks of apartheid South Africa. The Arab Israeli (or Israeli Arabs as pro-Israeli Jews like to call them) are treated like the coloureds of South Africa. The Arab Israelis are not quite Palestinian, but also not Israeli enough for the Jewish Israelis. The Arab Israelis are showcased as being treated better than they would be treated in other countries, but not treated equally like Jewish Israelis.

SD

Sunday, May 23, 2010 9:58 AM

Does anyone know where I can get a Queers Against Isreali Apartheid shirt to wear at Pride this year. What are they going to do drag us all out of the parade. Idiots. Good luck I really don't care that much about all this but now I will be wearing a shirt. Isn't Silence=Death our most important maybe a fundamental value. I will not be silenced.

Now a QuAIA Supporter

Sunday, May 23, 2010 10:30 AM

Jewish and Muslim gays have been participating in Pride for years with no problem.
The feel-good atmosphere has been destroyed by QIAI... which are only pushing their own agenda, which has NOTHING to do with gays anyway.
There is NO reason why they should be at Pride, and I'm GLAD they have been banned.
I personally lived with some of the people behind QIAI. I have never met a group of people more intolerant of others... if you don't think like them they will banish you. Well, for once the shoe is on the other foot.... and they are yelling "censorship"... they have 364 other days of the year to espouse their opinions. Why should they be allowed to USURP Pride and destroy what USED to be a fun-filled, easy-going day? BEGONE!

Ken in Paris

Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:02 PM

The Arab Israeli conflict has been going on since 1948. It's extremely complicated and there are good guys and bad guys on both sides, as in all conflicts.

We shouldn't be so quick to blame QUAIA regardless of whether you side with their views or not. That is not the real issue.

The real issue is freedom of expression at OUR parade. Allowing straights and homophobes (Mammoliti, Rob Ford) at Toronto city council to dictate who may or may participate in OUR parade sets a dangerous precedent.

Who or what will they tell us to ban next year?

Pride has a long history of political groups marching in OUR parade. Gay pride itself is political. And although we've won many rights since the bad old days, there are many people who would like to turn back the clock.

This is a typical wedge issue, being used to divide our community. We are going to be increasingly under attack by conservatives and the religious right (read the Armageddon Factor by Marci McDonald). We must not assume our rights are safe, that they couldn't be rolled back. There are many many people who are dedicated to this very thing, and they're organizing.

Whether or not you agree with the opinions held by certain groups that participate in OUR parade, we must not allow others such as the federal government or Toronto city council to decide who gets to march. That should be OUR decision.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
-- Thomas Jefferson

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
-- Voltaire

Val

Sunday, May 23, 2010 12:20 PM

Kieren & Tracy:

Sometimes I wonder if you're actually reading what I write. The answer to your question should be self-evident. To reiterate, I wrote:

The only requirements for participation in the Pride parade are:
- either a part or supportive of the LGBT community
- law-abiding

Logically, these requirements clearly preclude the participation of "all"/any group(s).

Doug W:

Thanks but, as an academic in the social sciences, I don't need a lesson in historiography or source-citing. You mention "bias" in my sources but you fail to identify the actual problem(s). Do the sources have faulty logic? Do the sources contain incorrect (or missing but pertinent) facts? Calling something "biased" and then immediately dismissing it as "single-minded" -- without identifying the specific biases -- exposes your criticism as baseless and therefore irrelevant and invalid.

"Community Response" (Jane?):

The e-mail campaign hardly awakened the Right. Martin Gladstone, B'nai Brith, Simon Wiesenthal Centre, Sue-Ann Levy (Toronto Sun), the National Post, and countless other sell-outs, bigots, and conservatives had already done that. Where have you been...?! Stupidity and bigotry must be addressed; Pride Toronto's head-in-sand approach has been an abject failure and is the #1 reason for its fall.

Rick

Sunday, May 23, 2010 1:22 PM

SD, I tell you why I focus on Israel. I have never heard an apologist for Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or Sudan. No one has tried to convince me Iran is just like my country and thus I should defend it against its aggressors. I haven´t been told racist things like "all palestinians will grow up to be terrorists" with the implication that it is ok to kill them from any other country. We don´t support any of those countries. Further, no one is trying to lie to me, not my neighbours, not the news, by telling me anything like Israel are peace loving and Palestinians aren´t... when it is painfully obvious that Israeli governemnts hate the idea of peace because it means they can´t take any more territory and resources. The iranian and the saudis haven´t tried to brainwash me and make me complicit in their abuses of others. Israel played with fire trying to market itself to us, some of us are critical thinkers... and brainwash the jewish community, some of them are critical thinkers who grew up in multicultural societies and see on Israel´s policies nothing by bigotry. I feel the way I do because faced with so much pro-Israel, illogical, racist, information, I did some research.

Tam

Sunday, May 23, 2010 2:19 PM

If the QuAIA will remove the word: Israeli Apartheid and replace with the suggested name: Queer Israeli in Solidarity with Palestine: Human rights for all! is more legitimate word that allows to have a political march in the Parade.

Apartheid is a hate language! It makes many LGBTTIQQ2SA communities uncomfortable about having a Pride celebration which the actual fact is here why because QuAIA DESTROYS the Pride celebration!

If QuAIA refuses to listen to a suggested name then let's why not shall I create a group called: Queers French Canadians Against English Canadians Apartheid- how do you like that? ugh?

Think about it if QuAIA still marching the Parade this year- a new group called Queers French Canadians Against English Canadians Apartheid; Queers Canadians Against American Apartheid; and lists goes on!

Go away, QuAIA! You destroy LGBTTIQQ2SA communities for good- you are not welcome here anymore at all!

John B

Sunday, May 23, 2010 2:21 PM

@Doug W
I also agree since Rick sources are so bias h A) it comes from a blog his blog and everything other link comes from his website B) he uses them over and over again and yes they are rather bias and just one sided.

@ Rick you sound more like Joseph Goebbels then a academic :

You do need a lesson in historiography I think you do since most people such as me and others who do study History can tell if there is a bias in sources and you give out only Pro Palestinian Sources . Finding bias is something we are told how to do ( its History 101) and also Rick your blog is not a source since I think you use it to just copy and paste anything you say, as with Doug W I really do question your sources and others who have studied social sciences and History is another one can easily find bias since we are told to think differently when viewing the past and Historians don't always agree on everything but we can tell if sources do have a bias in them. Since Rick you claim to be as an academic in the social science then I have ask this question before So How does a Middle Eastern War have anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? ignoring it or giving a one sided answer is not answering this question.

Also Rick if you say that you really are as an academic in the social science then you also know that internet sources are never acceptable because they have can have this bias or can be misleading.

and Rick you have to many logical fallacies since since A) your sources are bias and come from your blog and B) you just don't like any opposition. Also its funny how the United States, Russia, Sudan, and China has done or currently doing same like what Israel is doing to the Palestinians and yet United States(occupying Iraq and Afghanistan many civilians being killed because of this) , Russia(occupying parts of Georgia killed 2000 civilians and killing nearly 10% of Chechens in Chechnya) , Sudan( wiping out all non Arabs killing between 400,000 and 800,000 civilians ), and China( occupying Tibet) seems to be off the far left radar today and Israel seems to be the far left superstar in human suffering in the World. Funny how United States, Russia, Sudan, and China did the same in the last 10 years and they seem to be ignored and don't get labeled Apartheid becasue of it and they easily could be labeled that . Again you just say its logical fallacy since that what you do to people who question you and also really childish and what University would employ you if you say as an academic in the social science or you just say this to try and act superior to others then your just acting more like Joseph Goebbels he used that card too.

@SD
really did Blacks in South Africa under Apartheid had the right to vote? Guess what in Israel they have full representation(www.knesset.gov.il/.../FactionPage_eng.asp?PG=103) and (www.knesset.gov.il/.../FactionPage_eng.asp?PG=123) and I found it interesting that non Jew did become president who was Majallie Whbee (www.totallyjewish.com/news/world/?content_id=5753) and here is complete profile (www.mfa.gov.il/.../Majalli+Whbee.htm)
and as for the People in Gaza and the West Bank the governments are currently Hamas and the Palestinian National Authority and both are democratically elected by Palestinians and the far left screams this all the time.

Peter

Sunday, May 23, 2010 2:33 PM

John B

Very well said but I believe Rick and Tam will just call you names since that's what they are resorting to

Peter

Sunday, May 23, 2010 3:27 PM

John B, You have not proven that apartheid is hate speech and if you don´t know the difference between the french/english situation right now and the israeli/palestinian situation right now, perhaps it is best not to give an opinion. People are dying in both sides of the israeli-palestinian conflict, you should probably research it and not make careless accusations or comparisons... don´t you think? It would be the right thing to do. Just type "israeli settler" in youtube... or B´tselem.

Tam

Sunday, May 23, 2010 3:20 PM

Peter, Did blacks in south africa have to endure bombs from the whites? did south african whites ever kill 1,400 people in 3 weeks? Palestinians in the ocupied territories are controlled by Israel and they don´t have the right to vote.

Tam

Sunday, May 23, 2010 3:09 PM

Peter, I don´t call names Peter, I have reason to believe that you and others who are adamant that Israel shouldn´t be criticized aren´t any different than so many people in other conflicts who then say "I didn´t know".... actually, worse, because at least those people didn´t spend hours and hours of their days defending a government that is trying to disposses palestinians of the land of their ancestors, that doesn´t value palestinian life and thus doesn´t care enough to kill them.... those are active participants... a little part of the propaganda machine... culpable.

Tam

Sunday, May 23, 2010 3:38 PM

Apartheid has nothing to do with it .....so gays for a free south Africa Apartheid or Gays for a Free China Apartheid or Gays for a Free North Korea Apartheid is wrong in the view of most that I have seen here....Get your heads out of your fucking ass people....by Pride Toronto banning this is breaking the laws of Canada....remember that thing called FREEDOM OF SPEACH...SO MAYBE WE SHOULD GO BACK IN TIME...NO GAY RIGHTS....BRING BACK SLAVES...BURING ON THE CROSS FOR SINS.....EYE FOR AN EYE....

This is nothing more then censorship in its highest...Pride Toronto thinks that this will make the money flow...got a NEWS FLASH....it is not coming ...

DJ

Sunday, May 23, 2010 4:04 PM

"If QuAIA refuses to listen to a suggested name then let's why not shall I create a group called: Queers French Canadians Against English Canadians Apartheid- how do you like that? ugh?"

I would probably think you're a nut, but I most certainly wouldn't work to have you banned from parade.

Tom

Sunday, May 23, 2010 4:18 PM

The above article states that QuAIA spokesperson Tim McCaskell "intends to march regardless." It will be interesting to see what groups let QuAIA members (holding anti-Israel signs)join them in the parade.

Joe

Sunday, May 23, 2010 4:17 PM

Joe, you might have missed a very important fact here... QaIA is allowed to march... they aren´t banned...and I so hope they anger you with their signs because apartheid might bother you as a word, but there is so much that can be said about Israel. You want to stop that from happenning, why don´t you start lobbying the Israeli government to become a true democracy, get back to its borders and stop interfering in the lives of palestinians. Then, we can all rest.

Tam

Sunday, May 23, 2010 5:22 PM

Both Tam and Rick have proven that hey are hell bent on pushing their opinion and are not interested in an actual discussion.

I found it most telling when Rick was simply told that some of his sources were biases (though I counter that ALL his sources are biases. I can only hope his professors weren't willing to let that pass when they review any of his papers, as it results in very shoddy research) and he began to whine about the advice, from someone who was arguing on his side of the issue!!!

Is this a debate we should be having? Of course. The parade is something we all take an interest in and should all feel free to share our opinion. It's just sad when a few whiners (read: Rick and Tam), writing most likely as members of the QuAIA, have decided that democracy only works when protecting their voices and not so much when it protects the voices of those who would disagree.

Personally, and obviously this position will offend many, I think the QuAIA would do better to change their name and focus on the rampant homophobia with Palestine, where being gay can get you killed. But I guess that isn't a legitimate topic for Gay Pride.

Thinking ... try it

Sunday, May 23, 2010 5:45 PM

!! i think that sometimes people like rick decide on a position and then find the sources which support said opinion. instead of doing as much research as possible and then coming to an educated position.

!! rick, your blog would prove useful, and improve your position, if it included opposing articles and a reasoned explanation as to why their arguments are invalid. but you hate getting advice from the general public as you obviously know better than anyone else so i know my advice will be ignored.

!! also rick, you are aware that just because something has been written doesn't mean it is true. and if it is on the internet then you better take extra care.

Tracy

Sunday, May 23, 2010 5:31 PM

Thinking... try it.. hmmm... actual discusion would be QaIA gets to march and voice an opinion... why don't you think about that? Slowly, as it seems you are terrible at correct analogies.

Tam

Sunday, May 23, 2010 5:25 PM

Tracy, This you say would all make sense if the pro-Israel group was not the first one to be trying to market Israel. That is as bias as it gets. There is nothing biased about recognizing that Israel has been attacked and understanding that it doesn't make them a victim in a conflict in which both sides have been attacking each other and where the biggest attacker has always been Israel. I critically looked for facts and there is nothing more biased than Israel's position... to the point that is disgusting. Other countries and groups stop themselves from such blantant manipulation of facts, but Israel hasn't. Even the fact that there are a bunch of you here calling a human rights group hateful... what? if you say it long enough do you think you are going to convince us? How stupid do you think we are? There is nothing more hateful than what Israel has been doing to palestinians. That is just the truth. When Israel gets back to its 1967 borders and lets the palestinians have a real country, I'll stop caring about Israel... so I am just hoping it happens soon... for Israel's sake also. Sorry but, anything else is to support a bunch of thugs.

Tam

Sunday, May 23, 2010 5:56 PM

Tam, insulting someone as the only way to defend your position proves that you have no argument. It makes you look petty and uneducated. That really is quite pathetic. And typical ... the ONLY discussion you will allow is if you get what YOU want. How is that a discussion? Why don't you think about that?

Thinking ... try it

Sunday, May 23, 2010 6:15 PM

I'm still wondering how a middle eastern war has anything to do with gay rights in Canada

Peter

Sunday, May 23, 2010 6:25 PM

Funny how no answers for this question from both sides or tam I must be the Israel Lobby then for rasing such a question I wonder why you label people that when I don't support either side?

Peter

Sunday, May 23, 2010 6:23 PM

From Peter: "I'm still wondering how a middle eastern war has anything to do with gay rights in Canada."

Interesting statement. If gays can't care about rights for Israelis and Palestinians, why should straight people care about gay rights?

SD

Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:25 PM

Tam, does the article above not say: "Pride has voted to ban the use of Queers Against Israeli Apartheid and will make the announcement at a press conference on Tuesday." So, QuAIA will not be allowed to formally march in the parade as an admitted group unless they march under a different name. But, I realize that QuAIA members will probably try to defy the ban by marching with other admitted groups and then pulling their QuAIA signs and banners out of their nap sacks or from supporters along the parade route. And, in answer to your question, my priority is to advocate for gay rights (there are vast numbers of people on this planet who advocate for Muslim causes like Palestine, but a much smaller number who advocate for gay rights).

Joe

Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:13 PM

@ SD


I think that standing up for the rights of Gay Palestinians is just fine since Hamas and the Palestinian Nationality Authority could care less about this issue. I also note that Israel is not Homophobic free, our country isn't either, but blaming Israel because Gay Palestinians don't enjoy equality either it be under Hamas in Gaza or it be the West Bank under the Palestinian National Authority( Both democratically elected governments)is another thing since you think the people you might want to bring this equality issue is with the democratically elected governments of Hamas and Palestinian National Authority. I do support the rights of both Gay Israelis and Palestinians who won't?. But here we have a group that just wants to bring a Middle Eastern War, nothing really to do with the rights of Gay Palestinians under Hamas or the Palestinian National Authority but simply declaring war on Israel and really having nothing to do with the Rights of Gay Palestinians or even Gay Rights in general.

Peter

Sunday, May 23, 2010 7:00 PM

"I'm still wondering how a middle eastern war has anything to do with gay rights in Canada"

About as much as selling beer and bank accounts, but no one's saying that Labatt and TD shouldn't be in the parade.

Gay Scuba clubs and Gay Soccer Teams and Gay Flight Attendants all march--the common thread being that the participants are gay or largely gay--same with this group.

If the focus is to be solely on gay rights then it will be a much shorter parade.

Tom

Sunday, May 23, 2010 8:50 PM

@Tom

So Spreading a War that looks like it will never end is like selling Beer and Bank accounts?
What Planet are you living on?
Again it does not answer this question how Does a War in the Middle East has anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada? you might want think about what you just said

Since no one can't seem to give me a answer on how a War in the Middle East has anything to do with Gay rights in Canada it not like a selling a product. So since you seem to think War has a place then will we welcome both sides fighting with guns and suicide bombers wiping out each other while people in Toronto at Pride get killed by the fighting? Wow but I guess the violence might be welcome too since Tom thinks its like selling Beer and Bank accounts. Interesting since you said it has a place.

Peter

Sunday, May 23, 2010 8:25 PM

"So Spreading a War that looks like it will never end is like selling Beer and Bank accounts?"

Marching in a parade is now "spreading a war?" Seriously, you're making a fool of yourself.

"you might want think about what you just said"

Kettle meet pot.

Not surprisingly, you completely ignored my second point. The group is made up of gay people, like the gay soccer group or gay baton twirlers. That's been the standard for years, not necessarily whether the baton twirlers or this group advances gay rights in Canada. You've got your answer; you chose to ignore it. Fine.

Tom

Sunday, May 23, 2010 8:28 PM

@Tom

Your still not answering the question because they are Gay still does not justify bring a War or any Wars into Pride so you think the violence that usually come with Wars are justified becasue they are Gay? Also Wars also have Propaganda fronts either it be Israeli or Palestinian and is usually considered extension of that war by proxy. Again just because they are Gay still does not justify War or even violence.

Also still does not answer the Question nor does the comparisons Tom this does go on either side of this since I'm not defending the Pro Israel or the Pro Palestine camps here

or is this still like selling beer or banks accounts? I really doubt TD will send its Gay employees to rob or kill members of a CIBC, Royal Bank, Scotiabank, or a Bank of Montreal or Beer companies destroy each others product. Again this does not answer the question and being Gay to justify violence or a War but you seem to be doing this and no again it also fails to answer this question on how a Middle Eastern War has anything to do with gay rights in Canada? This is a question that goes out to both sides

Peter

Sunday, May 23, 2010 9:22 PM

@ Tom

So because they are Gay its ok for the Pro Israel Gays or Pro Palestine Gays to violently fight their war at Pride on the streets of Toronto? Its ok for them to bring their War to a event that everyone comes to enjoy and destory it? By violent means? such as open warfare? with Guns, Bombs, jets and suicide bombers and Qassam rockets?

and that is justified becasue they are Gay?

Peter

Sunday, May 23, 2010 9:01 PM

RE-CAP:

Queers Against Israeli Apartheid (QuAIA) is an LGBT group that engages in lawful political speech.

If QuAIA is a "hate" group, then call the police: www.torontopolice.on.ca/.../hatecrime.php

If you disagree with QuAIA's opinions, then express your disagreement. It's a free country.

Banning a group -- or entirely lawful expression -- from Pride is censorship, plain and simple.

Censorship is contrary to basic principles of democracy.

Rick

Sunday, May 23, 2010 9:05 PM

@ Rick

This is not censorship since it seem you censor others that disagree with you. I think you just got a taste of your own medicine and you just don't like it

Peter

Sunday, May 23, 2010 11:46 PM

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Answers to many of the questions raised here can be found at:

http://queersagainstapartheid.org/faq/

Rick

Sunday, May 23, 2010 11:29 PM

FYI.....

The constitutional provision that guarantees Freedom of expression in Canada is section 2(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: ... (b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication


I hope an pray that Pride Toronto and the City of Toronto is sued into bankruptcy....seen they wish to break a law that we as Gays demand everyday....by refuse to give to other ...Shame on Toronto and Shame on Pride Toronto....

DJ

Monday, May 24, 2010 12:11 AM

@ DJ or Rick

NEWSFLASH....

It does work both ways I hope you do understand this does works both ways not just towards one group and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms equally applies to EVERYONE Gay/ Straight, left and right,Pro Israel, Pro Palestine. Funny how when people oppose you, you say this but again it does apply equally on either side of this debate too. This isn't a question over censorship, the QuAIA or Pro Israel groups do everything to censor either side funny the far left will do this to anyone they don't agree with such as labeling people racist or the Israel Lobby like me when I don't support any side of this and think that both sides should be ban from pride since either side has fail to tell anyone how a Middle Eastern War has anything to do with Gay Rights in Canada or Pride. Also freedom of Expression does End when someone feels discriminated against and the law is very clear about this and Rick there is really no point of calling Toronto Police when you seem to be in London.

Since both sides seem to use the freedom of expression card and both sides do discriminate and blame each other how about banning BOTH SIDES since either side could not turn Pride into a front into Middle Eastern War and also turn Pride into a place to justify violence or even try to justify war. I really think this is a low point since we Queers could making love and not war and build Bridges of Peace and understanding between Queer Israelis and Palestinians. But it looks that some people would just rather have War or import foreign wars into the community.

Peter

Monday, May 24, 2010 12:31 AM

Pride, which puts on the parade, has the right to determine who marches.

That a group has been told that their intolerance for another group will not be permitted is fully within the rights of the committee.

Freedoms, as provided by Canada's charter, are not being violated, as the group is permitted to share their views in a public space should they choose, request a permit to hold their own march, create and share their own literature.

Playing the game that the constitution is being violated in this instance proves that Rick and his ilk do not understand the way these protections work. Perhaps a little more time actually studying the issue would do each of them a world of good.

Thinking ... try it

Monday, May 24, 2010 2:25 AM

I don't understand Kyle Rae's bizarre rationale on behalf of Pride - if Pride historically focused on homophobia to the exclusion of other issues, did he try to push the anti-apartheid contingents out back in the 1980s/early 1990s?

Because I and others may remember the late anti-apartheid activist Simon Nkoli came one year; I heard him speak at the 519 with many other locals during Pride week. Simon worked on both gay rights in Africa, but also spoke to gay people in other countries like Canada to fight apartheid (the original one!) by making connections between these causes. There were several contingents marching in those years whose main message was one of opposition to the apartheid regime in S.A. It seemed to me that we made them pretty welcome; I don't recall anyone -- including Kyle Rae -- suggesting that they were insufficiently focused on homophobia and should thus march off to the South African Embassy and leave our little anti-homophobia parade alone! Pride was about human rights, and they were, you might say, queers against Afrikaner apartheid. End of story. They marched. We clapped. A few years later, apartheid collapsed because of people like Simon and to a smaller degree those of us in the international community who helped keep up the pressure through various means. Even Brian Mulroney got onside.

I hope that some others who were there and involved in this era of Pride speak up before another bit of our history gets minced revised and manipulated. My recollection of twenty five years of Pride is that the causes for the choosing were diverse, many were broadly political and not at all focused exclusively on the narrower 'anti-homophobia' interpretation of Pride.

If QuAIA is indeed in violation (or would be, since they haven't done anything yet) of the city's anti-discrimination provisions, spell it out. This pretzel-like logic of Kyle's isn't helping the cause.

We need to know Pride's real reason, and if is concern about losing funding from the city, just say it. I am not a supporter of QuAIA, but I think they deserve an honest hearing without specious and convenient revisions of history. The principals are longtime activists in this community and they deserve a better process than they've gotten thus far. If they are in violation of the City's policies then stop beating around the bush and say it. This equivocating serves nobody. Is Pride being forced to take the fall - with Kyle Rae as spokesthingy, no less - because Kyle/the City don't want to wear it and be the 'bad guy/s' here? Cuz that's sure what it looks like to informed cynics like me.

Alex MacLean

Monday, May 24, 2010 6:55 AM

Let me understand. We can criticize Jamaica and criticize Uganda and criticize Malawi but criticizing Isreal is a hate crime because of the use of the word apartheid. Pride Toronto who is next? Freedom of Speech is a valuable right in Canada. Even if you don't care about QuAIA this decision needs to be challenged. Did Pride Toronto check with a lawyer there must be a legal challenge for QuAIA.

Now a QuAIA Supporter

Monday, May 24, 2010 10:22 AM

@Peter I understand more then most I was at the first march in Toronto....I was in jail for being in a gay bar in Montreal....I was in a Hospital with a crack skull....so don't try and tell me I don't understand....Pride Toronto has broken the law and has gone against what gay pride was set up for ..... Maybe Peter you need to go back to school and learn more....

Gay Pride has give into two fools who will never be in power in Toronto....their only reason for this is not to please Toronto but to please the Federal Government and hope and pray they will get funding next year....

FYI Pride Toronto has NOTHING NOTHING TO DO WITH GAY PRIDE......it is all about the mighty dollar and nothing more....ask I stated before......


Pride Toronto is up of sale to the highest bidder...they will sell their soul (if they had one)

Most of those on the Group are Straight which is a shame in itself.....

So let ban Gays for a free Northern Ireland .... hell lets ban IBM they really do not do much for gay rights they just give money to look good....

And lets ban the TTC .....they have a few lawsuit going for some comments that were made against gays ....

The word Terriost is a word that is so over used these days by Government....they USA was a terriost when they broke away from britian....Canada was a terriost when it fought the french...When our government does not like a group they label them as terriost....the FLQ was branded a terriost group and I lived through the bombing...The red shirt in Thailand have been branded terriost but they are far from it they just want honest elections....if a country fights within itself one side is always referred as the TERRIOST

people don't be puppets this group has every right to march in the parade....and banning them just show how narrow minded this world is coming....

DJ

Monday, May 24, 2010 12:16 PM

You are all missing the point. Losing funding and support from the City could mean not having a Pride festival at all this year. Then what Parade would QUAIA actaully march in? And how would losing its Pride festival benefit Toronto?

Lianne

Monday, May 24, 2010 12:35 PM

Funding from corporate and government sources is not the point, Lianne.

Pride existed long before such funding was provided.

"The point" is LGBT liberation, celebration, contributions, and free speech.

QuAIA is an LGBT group that, among other things, campaigns for LGBT liberation in Israel/Palestine. QuAIA engages in lawful political speech. To ban QuAIA and/or the words that it uses is censorship, and censorship is contrary to the values of the LGBT community and to principles of our supposed democracy.

Rick

Monday, May 24, 2010 12:52 PM

Queers Against Israel have never had so much attention or the opportunity to be taken serously ... but do they really think their cheap slogans are going to make a difference in the West Bank or Gaza? The Jewish groups that lobbied to censor them gave them a gift. Better if they had marched behind them in Old Testament drag waving signs that said Sissies Against Tshirt Politics. If Queers against Israel wanted to make a real difference they'd offer more than slogans and propaganda.

Emoticon

Monday, May 24, 2010 12:29 PM

But if the loss of funding results in no Pride festival, would you consider that the purposes of QUAIA or anyone else had been served? It costs money to put on a festival and a parade - maybe not 30 years ago when a few hundred people walked down the road - but nowadays it does. If Pride Toronto lets QUAIA march and then folds as a result, Toronto's loss of the 30 years of a festival will not be worth the small victory for freedom of speech

Lianne

Monday, May 24, 2010 1:37 PM

Lianne is right. Rick is wrong. It's very simple.

Thinking ... try it

Monday, May 24, 2010 1:53 PM

How about a group called 'Queers Against Any Nation That Will Behead Me For What I Am'? Would they be acceptable?

Margaret

Monday, May 24, 2010 2:08 PM

@Margaret: The way I understand it, chances are good that would be acceptable.

Lianne

Monday, May 24, 2010 4:57 PM

@ Lianne, Thinking ... try it...The first time I march for Gay Pride in the First Parade here in this city we had ZERO dollars...we got the money in the bars and from the clients in the bars...If you think what we have now is Gay Pride you are a bigger fool then I though....this is nothing more then MARKETING...nothing more and nothing less.....this is just a way for companies to get there name out there....all these places about 95% are gay friendly for that week after that they could not give a FUCK so please if your going to make a point have some facts and stop speaking out your ass....Pride is dead and has been dead for over 10 years all this is now is a marketing plan for tourist and to bring in money for companies.......DO YOU REALLY THINK TORONTO POLICE IS GAY FRIENDLY OR THE OPP.. TORONTO FIRE DEPARTMENT OR THE ARMY OR THE TTC OR IBM OR AND OF THE OTHERS THAT ARE THERE IN THE PARADE.....IT IS ALL JUST A MARKETING GAME TO THEM....

DJ

Monday, May 24, 2010 4:10 PM

Our own Canadian government has pulled out funding but you can bet your sweet ass the PC ... the Liberals the NDP and the Green Party will have there hands out telling you.....OH WE ARE HERE FOR YOU .... WE HEAR YOU ....WE SUPPORT YOU......BULL SHIT.......THEY COULD NOT GIVE A RAT ASS ABOUT ANYTHING BUT THEMSELVES....

DJ

Monday, May 24, 2010 6:50 PM

DJ, I would gladly make a valid point. But I'll let you go first. We're waiting.

Thinking ... try it

Monday, May 24, 2010 9:50 PM

@Thinking ...try it.....you just proved my point of puppets ... you can't even give a thought of your own ....

DJ

Monday, May 24, 2010 11:42 PM

DJ - actually I proved you a hypocrite. LOL You are so good at screaming down anyone with an opposing view, yet add nothing to the discussion. Still waiting for you to make your first valid point. Waiting.... waiting... waiting ...

Thinking ... try it

Tuesday, May 25, 2010 7:17 AM

Do I think QuAIA has violated Toronto's anti-discrimination policy? No, the policy deals with discrimination against people because of their place of origin. QuAIA hasn't attacked anyone for being Israeli. The policy also deals with religion. QuAIA hasn't attacked anyone for being Jewish. They haven't stated that Jews are apartheid lovers. When dealing with religion, there is nothing that states that one may not make a comment against the Roman Catholic church.

I have no problem with Pride Toronto making guidelines about who gets to participate and who doesn't. If Pride Toronto thinks that QuAIA isn't gay enough, then there are plenty of other participating groups that are also not gay enough such as Kulanu/Hillel and political parties.

If Pride Toronto just wants to ban "Israel(i) apartheid," let's be fair and ban the negative words about all countries, peoples, and groups. Let's not say anything negative or hateful about the homophobic "Focus on the Family." Afterall, family status is in the Toronto anti-discrimination policy.

Like other people who have posted, I think the "Israel apartheid" ban is about the potential loss of city funding. It has nothing to do with Toronto's anti-discrimination policy, but more to do with the optics of Toronto supporting Pride Week which may appear to accept perceived Antisemitism through QuAIA from the point of view of supporters of the current state of Israel.

SD

Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:08 AM

@Thinking ... try it.....you are so stupid what have you proved that you do not have a thought of your own....I have posted lots of view and all you done is nothing .....OMG your a member of the Government ....can tell by your stupid answers.....

DJ

Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:01 PM

DJ ...and waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting...

Thinking ... try it

Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:21 PM

@DJ - In case you missed it, DJ, I am just waiting for you to make a valid point. All you seem able to do is attack anyone with a difference of opinion by resorting to name calling. So, you have the floor - valid point number 1? Oh, wait ... magic eight ball says you will just make another nasty comment.

Thinking ... try it

Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:10 PM

@Thinking ... try it if you can read ...hoping you can because your showing that you can not....go up the list jerk and try to read .....if you can not ...print it take it to one of your friends and they can read it for you since you seem to have a problem reading....Keep Thinking as it does not seem to be working for you....just keep making your comments as it is showing everyone here how much of a fool you are......

DJ

Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:58 PM

@Thinking...
An LGBTQ (Lesbian Gay Bi Transgender Queer) rights activist group says that while Israel may have embraced LGBTQ rights, it cannot be a truly democratic state unless it does the same for Palestinians.

Speakers from different organizations joined last night at the Buddies in Bad Times Theatre for ‘Coming Out Against Israeli Apartheid’, a discussion held by Queers Against Israeli Apartheid to raise awareness of the perceived Israeli occupation, among both the LGBTQ and Arab/Muslim communities.



Show me here with this why they need to be Banned from a parade....that is if you can read....CAN U!!!!

DJ

Tuesday, May 25, 2010 7:25 PM

DJ - wow you are a fiery one. Name calling. Insult. Tools used by people who want to shut others up. Funny, but you use similar tactics as Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin and their kind. Sad.

Gay Pride made a huge error in this case and that was possibly (and yes, even likely) basing their decision on a threat from a politician. That never bodes well for the future.

However, this group is more contentious than you seem to think in their opposition to Israel. If their concern is only democracy, then why do they not march under the banner "Democracy and Human Rights in the Middle East"? Or even "Democracy and Human Rights in the West Bank"?

Israel has acted like a bully on several occasions and I don't mean just in its distant past. Palestine is no better. But here you have a group who has decided to target one over the other. Hateful? Indeed. Hate group? No, not by a long shot.

They can and should feel free to express their point of view on democracy in a Democracy Pride march. They can picket the Israeli consulate and demand better treatment of Palestinians (while, hopefully, calling on Palestine to also explore enhancing its deplorable record on human rights).

To bring the battle into GAY pride is saying that they don't care about the issue of gay rights as their cause trumps everyone else's. It is that which I oppose. Hateful rhetoric on a day to push for and celebrate the triumphs and fights we as gay men, lesbians, queer and transgendered people still battle day to day.

Explain the use of a crossed out swatika on a QUAIA sign. Not hateful? Explain to me the chant: “Fist by fist, blow by blow, apartheid state has got to go.” Not violent?

Please. Either you are a member of the group and again think your cause trumps the fight for gay rights and recognition, or you are playing knee-jerk politics and have failed to do some homework.

Yes I will be called a puppet of the Jewish state (another tactic used to shut up those deemed offensive) but I see many things that country must do to repair a very serious, AND VERY COMPLEX, situation between two states struggling for power and control over the region of the world. Gay pride, however, should be left for those struggles that directly affect our community.

Thinking ... try it